Author Topic: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5  (Read 91812 times)

Offline volker2020

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #40 on: 05/28/2023 09:29 pm »
When did Starship switch from having the methane header tank close to the main tank to having it in the nosecone?

I have looked around the threads, but I didn't find anything with a search.

I know SN15 had the "before" design, and S24 has the current design with both header tanks in the nosecone. What about S20?

I hope someone can illuminate me.

I am quite certain, that the header tank (which came with ship 5) was in the nose cone right from the beginning. As someone above already stated it was needed to balance out the ship during the bellyflop, which was one of the test subjects in the first 10km hop.

Offline geza

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #41 on: 05/29/2023 09:18 am »
When did Starship switch from having the methane header tank close to the main tank to having it in the nosecone?

I have looked around the threads, but I didn't find anything with a search.

I know SN15 had the "before" design, and S24 has the current design with both header tanks in the nosecone. What about S20?

I hope someone can illuminate me.

I am quite certain, that the header tank (which came with ship 5) was in the nose cone right from the beginning. As someone above already stated it was needed to balance out the ship during the bellyflop, which was one of the test subjects in the first 10km hop.

Oxygen header tank was in the nose cone right from the beginning. Methane header tank was moved to the nose cone only recently. I don't know the time of decision.

Offline clongton

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #42 on: 05/29/2023 02:52 pm »
Oxygen header tank was in the nose cone right from the beginning. Methane header tank was moved to the nose cone only recently. I don't know the time of decision.

Are there any indications where the header tanks will be for the crewed version of the Starship? All the images I have seen show the crew compartment without any down-comer in the nose cone.
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Offline joek

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #43 on: 05/29/2023 03:28 pm »
Are there any indications where the header tanks will be for the crewed version of the Starship? All the images I have seen show the crew compartment without any down-comer in the nose cone.

Only hint I have seen is from SpaceX Human Spaceflight: MOON (scroll down) ...
Quote from: SpaceX
Up to 12 passengers, with private quarters
...
Nosecone area available for entertainment, manufacturing, and scientific opportunities

... Which might suggest that for crewed flights--or anything with significant return forward mass--header will be moved to the rear. For missions without that return forward mass on (e.g., Starlink, tankers, ...), they may need to keep the header forward to maintain acceptable center of mass?

Offline winkhomewinkhome

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #44 on: 05/29/2023 04:47 pm »
Would it not make some degree of sense to engineer the top end of Starship like a Dragon 2 on steroids sans the heatshield element?

standard disclaimer - if this has been discussed previously here or elsewhere, apologies...
Dale R. Winke

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #45 on: 05/30/2023 12:48 am »
Would it not make some degree of sense to engineer the top end of Starship like a Dragon 2 on steroids sans the heatshield element?

standard disclaimer - if this has been discussed previously here or elsewhere, apologies...

Yes please not here.

See the ever active aborts thread

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=56632.0

Offline winkhomewinkhome

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #46 on: 05/30/2023 02:23 am »
Would it not make some degree of sense to engineer the top end of Starship like a Dragon 2 on steroids sans the heatshield element?

standard disclaimer - if this has been discussed previously here or elsewhere, apologies...

Yes please not here.

See the ever active aborts thread

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=56632.0

LOL - I really must be losing it in my advancing years > I have reread my question multiple times now and neither did I mention the intent/need/option to abort, nor did I infer an inflight abort option...

I guess I was revisiting, if my feeble memory recalls correctly, the "Swiss Army" Starship, where the ship was built with a utilitarian propulsive section. and the upper portion could be any assortment of purpose built units. potentially a Dragon-like on steroids unit.

hopefully that brings some clarity vs my attempted initial brevity.
   
Dale R. Winke

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #47 on: 05/30/2023 02:30 am »
Would it not make some degree of sense to engineer the top end of Starship like a Dragon 2 on steroids sans the heatshield element?

standard disclaimer - if this has been discussed previously here or elsewhere, apologies...

Yes please not here.

See the ever active aborts thread

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=56632.0

LOL - I really must be losing it in my advancing years > I have reread my question multiple times now and neither did I mention the intent/need/option to abort, nor did I infer an inflight abort option...

I guess I was revisiting, if my feeble memory recalls correctly, the "Swiss Army" Starship, where the ship was built with a utilitarian propulsive section. and the upper portion could be any assortment of purpose built units. potentially a Dragon-like on steroids unit.

hopefully that brings some clarity vs my attempted initial brevity.
 

Fair enough, just leave out the hypergolics.

SpaceX is already working on the HLS design.  One of the airlocks is the size of the entire Dragon Capsule's passenger compartment.  One of the airlocks.   That's not the passenger compartment, which will be much larger.

So SpaceX has moved on with lessons learned.

See the Humans to Mars 2023 conference


Offline Corey Mandler

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #48 on: 05/30/2023 12:28 pm »
all your issues are not important compared to this question, what type of paint is in the raptor nozzle?
we need to know

Offline lightleviathan

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #49 on: 05/30/2023 12:56 pm »
Probably some proprietary themal paint for the inside of the engine, but I don't think anybody knows what paints the other components.

Offline eriblo

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #50 on: 05/30/2023 04:37 pm »
The search term is "thermal barrier coating".

Offline Tangilinear Interjar

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #51 on: 05/30/2023 04:54 pm »
I'm curious what the actual temperature of the surface on the inside of the nozzle actually is during operation?

On one side it's very cold, the other very hot. Which wins out? I suspect that the surface is actually fairly cool but that's really a WAG.

Does anyone around here have any actual knowledge on that?

Offline livingjw

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #52 on: 05/30/2023 07:04 pm »
- A common material used for thermal barrier coatings is zirconia doped with yttria. Max temperature range is in the range of 1200 - 1500 C.

John

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #53 on: 05/30/2023 08:34 pm »
I'm curious what the actual temperature of the surface on the inside of the nozzle actually is during operation?

On one side it's very cold, the other very hot. Which wins out? I suspect that the surface is actually fairly cool but that's really a WAG.

Does anyone around here have any actual knowledge on that?

I believe the nozzle is conductive with something like copper since you want to conduct the heat to the coolant  (LCH4) that's a short distance away.

Which means they don't get very hot.

Offline livingjw

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #54 on: 05/31/2023 12:25 am »
SpaceX is likely using something like GRCop-84 for the main combustion chamber.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20050123582

John

Offline edzieba

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #55 on: 05/31/2023 07:06 am »
I'm curious what the actual temperature of the surface on the inside of the nozzle actually is during operation?
The inside of the inside surface (the inner wall of the internal channels) will be close to the temperature of the supercrtical CH4 flowing within the channel. The outside of the inside surface will be close to the temperature of the exhaust flowing over it (which itself may be lower temperature than the centre of the plume due to film cooling). The thermal gradient in the handful of millimetres between the two surfaces is extreme, with the step-change at the interface between the TBC coating and the copper-alloy liner being the interesting (in an 'interesting times' sense) bit.

Online Okie_Steve

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #56 on: 05/31/2023 03:33 pm »
SpaceX is likely using something like GRCop-84 for the main combustion chamber.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20050123582

John

Would a copper alloy be strong enough to support the combustion chamber pressure directly or is it used as a liner with steel or some other stronger outer jacket?

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #57 on: 05/31/2023 03:54 pm »
SpaceX is likely using something like GRCop-84 for the main combustion chamber.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20050123582

John

Would a copper alloy be strong enough to support the combustion chamber pressure directly or is it used as a liner with steel or some other stronger outer jacket?
Copper can be used by itself but likely they’re using a jacket made of some other metal.
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Offline edzieba

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #58 on: 06/01/2023 07:21 am »
The outer jacket does not need to tolerate exhaust temperatures, so can be made of something that is stronger but less temperature tolerant (e.g. steel). The inner liner needs to tolerate the extreme temperatures of exhaust and cryogenic coolant, but only needs to handle the pressure differential between the combustion chamber and the coolant. The coolant comes from the pump outlet, so needs to be above the MCC pressure already.

Offline Eka

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Re: SpaceX Starship/Super Heavy Engineering General Thread 5
« Reply #59 on: 06/01/2023 08:06 am »
I'm curious what the actual temperature of the surface on the inside of the nozzle actually is during operation?

On one side it's very cold, the other very hot. Which wins out? I suspect that the surface is actually fairly cool but that's really a WAG.

Does anyone around here have any actual knowledge on that?

I believe the nozzle is conductive with something like copper since you want to conduct the heat to the coolant  (LCH4) that's a short distance away.

Which means they don't get very hot.
Last I heard, Musk tweet long while ago, was the inner surface was an inconel alloy. Then there is a milled copper heat exchanger to transfer the heat to the propellant. I don't know what the outside layer is. So if you see green, things have gone real bad for awhile.

SpaceX is likely using something like GRCop-84 for the main combustion chamber.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20050123582

John

Would a copper alloy be strong enough to support the combustion chamber pressure directly or is it used as a liner with steel or some other stronger outer jacket?
Copper can be used by itself but likely they’re using a jacket made of some other metal.
There are some very strong and highly heat conductive copper alloys that have been developed recently. Much newer than this NASA one. I don't know if any of them have seen space related uses.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

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