Bump because there is much to say about the heat shield this time, can anybody post those images before and after ?
Quote from: equiserre on 08/29/2025 07:18 pmBump because there is much to say about the heat shield this time, can anybody post those images before and after ?There wasn't a heat shield issue. Elon explained the discoloration from a tile test; otherwise, 95% of the tiles survived.https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=63386.msg2713110#msg2713110
Does anyone know if they test heat shield ideas on the second stage of Falcon 9 rockets? Seems like they have the opportunity to try lots of new ideas every week. Just add some tiles and couple of sensors or cameras to the second stage, sit back and collect data.
Quote from: gosink on 09/09/2025 10:11 pmDoes anyone know if they test heat shield ideas on the second stage of Falcon 9 rockets? Seems like they have the opportunity to try lots of new ideas every week. Just add some tiles and couple of sensors or cameras to the second stage, sit back and collect data.Maybe the entry profile (is that the correct term?) wouldn't be suitable for testing tiles. I assume that they would need to control the angle of attack, attitude, etc. Can the second stage do all that?
Does anyone know if they test heat shield ideas on the second stage of Falcon 9 rockets? Seems like they have the opportunity to try lots of new ideas every week. Certainly some payload cost, but not sure that most of their launches are maxing out.
SpaceX announced during its CRS-18 Cargo Dragon webcast that the twice-flown orbital spacecraft will feature a handful of ceramic Starship heat shield tiles, meant to flight-test a critical component of the next-generation SpaceX spacecraft.
They've tested them on Dragon.QuoteSpaceX announced during its CRS-18 Cargo Dragon webcast that the twice-flown orbital spacecraft will feature a handful of ceramic Starship heat shield tiles, meant to flight-test a critical component of the next-generation SpaceX spacecraft.
Do we have any speculation on the material used for the 'crunch wrap' gap filler? Doesn't seem to be ablative, or at least it's not visibly so, like the tile backing layer.
Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship Gazer
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.
Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.
For those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”
Ars Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”
I no longer consider it a blanket, but rather a part of the tile backing, mounted by the tile robot in alternating placement. This way, the tiles have a gap filler made of the same material between them, eliminating the need for laborious hand placement.In the third picture, the areas in green are what you see in the above two images (Tiles with the white gap fillers). The area in red was not present with those, and there were areas on the nose cone where no tiles were present; additionally, the white backing was painted black (which resulted in the white coating of the nose cone and several areas along the spine). The Area in orange is a special tile test area and also survived.Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:44 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship Gazer
Quote from: catdlr on 09/10/2025 11:32 pmI no longer consider it a blanket, but rather a part of the tile backing, mounted by the tile robot in alternating placement. This way, the tiles have a gap filler made of the same material between them, eliminating the need for laborious hand placement.In the third picture, the areas in green are what you see in the above two images (Tiles with the white gap fillers). The area in red was not present with those, and there were areas on the nose cone where no tiles were present; additionally, the white backing was painted black (which resulted in the white coating of the nose cone and several areas along the spine). The Area in orange is a special tile test area and also survived.Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:44 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship GazerSure but as shown, the blanket would interfere with the adjacent unit being placed.Easily solvable with a bit of packaging of course, just need to be wary of friction during the install pushing one of the blanket leafs under the tile.
Quote from: meekGee on 09/11/2025 02:09 amQuote from: catdlr on 09/10/2025 11:32 pmI no longer consider it a blanket, but rather a part of the tile backing, mounted by the tile robot in alternating placement. This way, the tiles have a gap filler made of the same material between them, eliminating the need for laborious hand placement.In the third picture, the areas in green are what you see in the above two images (Tiles with the white gap fillers). The area in red was not present with those, and there were areas on the nose cone where no tiles were present; additionally, the white backing was painted black (which resulted in the white coating of the nose cone and several areas along the spine). The Area in orange is a special tile test area and also survived.Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:44 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship GazerSure but as shown, the blanket would interfere with the adjacent unit being placed.Easily solvable with a bit of packaging of course, just need to be wary of friction during the install pushing one of the blanket leafs under the tile.Easier than that. First pass is every other Pin set, second pass filling in the gaps between them, and when pressing the tile, the blanket automatically fills in the gap. The tiles on the first pass lay flat, providing ship skin protection between tiles in case of blow-through. Td-da. The proof is in the picture, and note the wings being installed in the factory Starship Nursery row.
Quote from: catdlr on 09/11/2025 02:16 amQuote from: meekGee on 09/11/2025 02:09 amQuote from: catdlr on 09/10/2025 11:32 pmI no longer consider it a blanket, but rather a part of the tile backing, mounted by the tile robot in alternating placement. This way, the tiles have a gap filler made of the same material between them, eliminating the need for laborious hand placement.In the third picture, the areas in green are what you see in the above two images (Tiles with the white gap fillers). The area in red was not present with those, and there were areas on the nose cone where no tiles were present; additionally, the white backing was painted black (which resulted in the white coating of the nose cone and several areas along the spine). The Area in orange is a special tile test area and also survived.Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:44 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship GazerSure but as shown, the blanket would interfere with the adjacent unit being placed.Easily solvable with a bit of packaging of course, just need to be wary of friction during the install pushing one of the blanket leafs under the tile.Easier than that. First pass is every other Pin set, second pass filling in the gaps between them, and when pressing the tile, the blanket automatically fills in the gap. The tiles on the first pass lay flat, providing ship skin protection between tiles in case of blow-through. Td-da. The proof is in the picture, and note the wings being installed in the factory Starship Nursery row.Can you tile hexagonals that way? (Black and white coloring) I think not.But if you wrap each tile in a blanket and put a tight thin band around the perimeter (think Saran wrap) it'll keep the blanket edges both orthogonal and a bit compressed, for easy frictionless rub-less installation. Then on initial heating the Saran Wrap goes away all's well.
Quote from: meekGee on 09/11/2025 05:45 amQuote from: catdlr on 09/11/2025 02:16 amQuote from: meekGee on 09/11/2025 02:09 amQuote from: catdlr on 09/10/2025 11:32 pmI no longer consider it a blanket, but rather a part of the tile backing, mounted by the tile robot in alternating placement. This way, the tiles have a gap filler made of the same material between them, eliminating the need for laborious hand placement.In the third picture, the areas in green are what you see in the above two images (Tiles with the white gap fillers). The area in red was not present with those, and there were areas on the nose cone where no tiles were present; additionally, the white backing was painted black (which resulted in the white coating of the nose cone and several areas along the spine). The Area in orange is a special tile test area and also survived.Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:44 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship GazerSure but as shown, the blanket would interfere with the adjacent unit being placed.Easily solvable with a bit of packaging of course, just need to be wary of friction during the install pushing one of the blanket leafs under the tile.Easier than that. First pass is every other Pin set, second pass filling in the gaps between them, and when pressing the tile, the blanket automatically fills in the gap. The tiles on the first pass lay flat, providing ship skin protection between tiles in case of blow-through. Td-da. The proof is in the picture, and note the wings being installed in the factory Starship Nursery row.Can you tile hexagonals that way? (Black and white coloring) I think not.But if you wrap each tile in a blanket and put a tight thin band around the perimeter (think Saran wrap) it'll keep the blanket edges both orthogonal and a bit compressed, for easy frictionless rub-less installation. Then on initial heating the Saran Wrap goes away all's well.It's much simpler than that, but I can't illustrate it. Imagine cupcakes with their wrappers already attached, but placing them back into the pan, with the cupcakes right up against each other, side by side. The wrappers, made of this white thermal cloth, bump up against each other when inserted. But with a slight twist, on the first pass, the cupcakes are placed in alternating holes; the white cloth on the side of the cupcake falls and lies flat. Then, on the second pass, the next set of cupcakes is inserted between the others to fill in the gaps. That second set of cupcakes is what fills the void in between the cakes, the one used in the first pass lies flat and adds another layer of protection below the gap and the steel ship side. Of course, that works if your Mother and you worked on making cupcakes when you were a child. I'm dead if she gave you donuts. I'm anticipating the Ringwatchers to do a better job illustrating this. Now I'm hungry for a cupcake.
Quote from: catdlr on 09/11/2025 07:48 amQuote from: meekGee on 09/11/2025 05:45 amQuote from: catdlr on 09/11/2025 02:16 amQuote from: meekGee on 09/11/2025 02:09 amQuote from: catdlr on 09/10/2025 11:32 pmI no longer consider it a blanket, but rather a part of the tile backing, mounted by the tile robot in alternating placement. This way, the tiles have a gap filler made of the same material between them, eliminating the need for laborious hand placement.In the third picture, the areas in green are what you see in the above two images (Tiles with the white gap fillers). The area in red was not present with those, and there were areas on the nose cone where no tiles were present; additionally, the white backing was painted black (which resulted in the white coating of the nose cone and several areas along the spine). The Area in orange is a special tile test area and also survived.Quote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:44 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 09:31 pmQuote from: DanClemmensen on 09/09/2025 09:23 pmQuote from: catdlr on 09/09/2025 08:49 pmFor those wanting to find out what's in store for V3, read this article.QuoteArs Technica@arstechnicaSpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”ARTICLE: SpaceX’s lesson from last Starship flight? “We need to seal the tiles.”For those who did not read the article, the headline is slightly misleading. It's not about sealing individual tiles against moisture. It's about filling the gaps between tiles to keep the reentry plasma from reaching the ablative backup layer. In particular, they used their neat new "crush wrap" approach for most of the tiles, and it worked. "Crush wrap" is that fabric-looking stuff that is installed under each tile indivitually with its edges sticking out of the gap all the way around. After pushing the tile down on its pins, the stuff that sticks out is trimmed flush. Apparently, this is quick to install and can fly multiple times without per-flight maintenance.I've seen this being installed on the ship. Let me find an image, probably from a Starship Gazer.Presented here in this image are two samples of the specified tile type featuring the "crunch wrap." The pre-cut white fabric backing will fold between the tiles, creating a two-layer fabric structure between each tile. Alternatively, they can be arranged to alternate; in one configuration, the fabric will lie flat, and in the other, it will be installed between two tiles, causing the fabric to fold upwards and serve as a gap filler between each tile.The second photo illustrates two tiles butting up to each other in the RED-highlighted boxPhoto Credit: Starship GazerSure but as shown, the blanket would interfere with the adjacent unit being placed.Easily solvable with a bit of packaging of course, just need to be wary of friction during the install pushing one of the blanket leafs under the tile.Easier than that. First pass is every other Pin set, second pass filling in the gaps between them, and when pressing the tile, the blanket automatically fills in the gap. The tiles on the first pass lay flat, providing ship skin protection between tiles in case of blow-through. Td-da. The proof is in the picture, and note the wings being installed in the factory Starship Nursery row.Can you tile hexagonals that way? (Black and white coloring) I think not.But if you wrap each tile in a blanket and put a tight thin band around the perimeter (think Saran wrap) it'll keep the blanket edges both orthogonal and a bit compressed, for easy frictionless rub-less installation. Then on initial heating the Saran Wrap goes away all's well.It's much simpler than that, but I can't illustrate it. Imagine cupcakes with their wrappers already attached, but placing them back into the pan, with the cupcakes right up against each other, side by side. The wrappers, made of this white thermal cloth, bump up against each other when inserted. But with a slight twist, on the first pass, the cupcakes are placed in alternating holes; the white cloth on the side of the cupcake falls and lies flat. Then, on the second pass, the next set of cupcakes is inserted between the others to fill in the gaps. That second set of cupcakes is what fills the void in between the cakes, the one used in the first pass lies flat and adds another layer of protection below the gap and the steel ship side. Of course, that works if your Mother and you worked on making cupcakes when you were a child. I'm dead if she gave you donuts. I'm anticipating the Ringwatchers to do a better job illustrating this. Now I'm hungry for a cupcake.Cupcakes are on a square grid, so you can do a black-white mapping and have half of them without a circumference, and half with.Not so easy with a hex grid...There is a trick though. If each hex has only 2 edges covered, you can get a consistent fill, but still the rubbing issue persists.A thin packaging band will do it though, with no installation contact, and nice symmetrical double-blanket at each edge (so it doesn't favor one tile over the other)