Starship heat shield

[OTV Booster]

Thoughts on strengthening tiles.


Are there any glass formulations  that can make long fiberglass like threads and withstand the expected temps?


If so, maybe a 3D spider web like matrix throughout the tile. Something like this might minimize tile cracking at the cost of some direct thermal pathways and increased fabrication costs.

[Asteroza]

Thoughts on strengthening tiles.


Are there any glass formulations  that can make long fiberglass like threads and withstand the expected temps?


If so, maybe a 3D spider web like matrix throughout the tile. Something like this might minimize tile cracking at the cost of some direct thermal pathways and increased fabrication costs.

This recent research may be of interest then, regarding weaving solid structures in 3D from fibers...

https://blog.siggraph.org/2024/07/beyond-the-threads.html/

https://textiles-lab.github.io/publications/2024-solid-knitting/

https://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2024/july/robotics-institute-introduces-solid-knitting-as-new-fabrication-technique

[edzieba]

Thoughts on strengthening tiles.


Are there any glass formulations  that can make long fiberglass like threads and withstand the expected temps?


If so, maybe a 3D spider web like matrix throughout the tile. Something like this might minimize tile cracking at the cost of some direct thermal pathways and increased fabrication costs.

This recent research may be of interest then, regarding weaving solid structures in 3D from fibers...

https://blog.siggraph.org/2024/07/beyond-the-threads.html/

https://textiles-lab.github.io/publications/2024-solid-knitting/

https://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2024/july/robotics-institute-introduces-solid-knitting-as-new-fabrication-technique

Neat, though bulk 3D woven (not knit) textiles are already commonplace and produced in industrial quantities. Probably the better option if you do not need the arbitrary shape capability of 3D knitting.

But can those fibres
a) Survive the bulk sintering process that creates the tile?
b) Not conduct heat through the tile (defeating the tile's purpose)?
c) Provide meaningful mechanical properties post-sintering?
d) Provide more reinforcement than the existing metallic inserts?

The last one is likely the kicker, and probably the reason SpaceX went with bulk Silica-fibre (HRSI) tiles over FRCI, TUFI, or AETB, all of which already contain reinforcement fibres and have similar flight heritage.

[OTV Booster]

Thoughts on strengthening tiles.


Are there any glass formulations  that can make long fiberglass like threads and withstand the expected temps?


If so, maybe a 3D spider web like matrix throughout the tile. Something like this might minimize tile cracking at the cost of some direct thermal pathways and increased fabrication costs.

This recent research may be of interest then, regarding weaving solid structures in 3D from fibers...

https://blog.siggraph.org/2024/07/beyond-the-threads.html/

https://textiles-lab.github.io/publications/2024-solid-knitting/

https://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2024/july/robotics-institute-introduces-solid-knitting-as-new-fabrication-technique

I was thinking of something less bulky like individual strands taking up much less of the final bulk.

[OTV Booster]

Thoughts on strengthening tiles.


Are there any glass formulations  that can make long fiberglass like threads and withstand the expected temps?


If so, maybe a 3D spider web like matrix throughout the tile. Something like this might minimize tile cracking at the cost of some direct thermal pathways and increased fabrication costs.

This recent research may be of interest then, regarding weaving solid structures in 3D from fibers...

https://blog.siggraph.org/2024/07/beyond-the-threads.html/

https://textiles-lab.github.io/publications/2024-solid-knitting/

https://www.cmu.edu/news/stories/archives/2024/july/robotics-institute-introduces-solid-knitting-as-new-fabrication-technique

Neat, though bulk 3D woven (not knit) textiles are already commonplace and produced in industrial quantities. Probably the better option if you do not need the arbitrary shape capability of 3D knitting.

But can those fibres
a) Survive the bulk sintering process that creates the tile?
b) Not conduct heat through the tile (defeating the tile's purpose)?
c) Provide meaningful mechanical properties post-sintering?
d) Provide more reinforcement than the existing metallic inserts?

The last one is likely the kicker, and probably the reason SpaceX went with bulk Silica-fibre (HRSI) tiles over FRCI, TUFI, or AETB, all of which already contain reinforcement fibres and have similar flight heritage.

Opinion:


The metallic inserts introduce stress points. For example, when a vibrational standing wave is wondering about in the space between metallic arms, stresses would collect at the metallic/ceramic interface.


When a force is applied evenly across the face or a force attempts to rotate a tile against the pins, the arms help.


Ceramics generally have great compressive strength and little tensile strength. Fiberglass OTOH seems to have good tensile strength compared to most ceramics.


As I refine the initial idea, maybe a fine, widely open mesh immediately below surface and above the insert. It would act like skinny bits of rebar in a road bed. The bulk of thermal conduction would be lateral, which speculatively could be an advantage in that it would help keep the thermal load even across the width of the tile.

[Asteroza]

If glass fiber has drawbacks, perhaps basalt fiber?

[SpaceManJoe]

Why can't someone just come out and ask Elon Musk if the tiles on SS are waterproof or not?

I was thinking and there's an easy solution to this. So if the tiles indeed are not waterproof just like the space shuttle tiles weren't. Well there is an easy solution here. Launch Starship in a desert where it rains infrequently. Florida unfortunately rains all the time.

Spaceport America in New Mexico is located right in a desert where I'm sure it rains hardly ever, hence that's why it's a desert. So yeah if SpaceX hasn't figured out a way to solve this problem with the tiles not being naturally waterproof, I mean if they can't solve this problem, then just launch Starship from a desert where it doesn't rain.

I mean they could launch from New Mexico right?

America went to war with Mexico back the in 1800s and we defeated Mexico. Imagine if we had incorporated Mexico into the USA? I do believe Mexico has desert regions that are even closer to the equator than Cape Canaveral (cause you know when it comes to launching rockets you want to be as close to the equator as possible right?).

My point is you wanna be as close to the equator as possible and you want to launch from a desert where it doesn't rain. How often does it rain where Spaceport America is located?

The whole reason rockets have to launch from the ocean is cause they would expend their booster and you don't want the booster dropping on a town. With Starship there's no threat of a spent booster crashing down on a town. Starship is revolutionary.

Could Starship legally launch from Spaceport America? And how often does it rain there?

But hey maybe SpaceX has solved this issue, can't someone just ask Elon about it?

I've seen videos of Spaceport America it's located right in a desert that looks like it gets very little water.

[edzieba]

Why can't someone just come out and ask Elon Musk if the tiles on SS are waterproof or not?

No point, we already know the tiles as-applied to all current vehicles are waterproof - they are waterproofed with MTMS (methyltrimethoxysilane) at time of manufacture as per the FDEP documents for the tile factory on Astronaut Blvd. in Florida.
We also know that MTMS is burnt off (or at least, the heat denatures it to the point of being no longer hydrophobic) during entry - the same as the DMES (Dimethylethoxysilane) factory waterproofing was for the STS orbiter tiles.

The question is not whether the tiles are waterproof: they are. The question is what method of reapplying waterproofing, and what rewaterproofing agent will be used, for the tiles after a ship is recovered? Since no ships have been recovered for reflight yet, this question has thus far been moot.

[Greg Hullender]

America went to war with Mexico back the in 1800s and we defeated Mexico. Imagine if we had incorporated Mexico into the USA? I do believe Mexico has desert regions that are even closer to the equator than Cape Canaveral (cause you know when it comes to launching rockets you want to be as close to the equator as possible right?).

Not sure what you're getting at here. The US should invade Mexico? SpaceX should move to Mexico? Elon should build a time machine?

[OTV Booster]

America went to war with Mexico back the in 1800s and we defeated Mexico. Imagine if we had incorporated Mexico into the USA? I do believe Mexico has desert regions that are even closer to the equator than Cape Canaveral (cause you know when it comes to launching rockets you want to be as close to the equator as possible right?).

Not sure what you're getting at here. The US should invade Mexico? SpaceX should move to Mexico? Elon should build a time machine?

I think he was suggesting SX launch from Mexico. I'd expect ITAR to be a bit of a problem.


Hah! Got it. Encourage Mexico to invade and annex Florida. There would be no 'export' so no ITAR. On second thought, Cuba. Great launch site.


The Time Machine idea has some potential.


Sorry. It's been a nasty morning. I'm looking for a chuckle.

[meekGee]

America went to war with Mexico back the in 1800s and we defeated Mexico. Imagine if we had incorporated Mexico into the USA? I do believe Mexico has desert regions that are even closer to the equator than Cape Canaveral (cause you know when it comes to launching rockets you want to be as close to the equator as possible right?).

Not sure what you're getting at here. The US should invade Mexico? SpaceX should move to Mexico? Elon should build a time machine?

I think he was suggesting SX launch from Mexico. I'd expect ITAR to be a bit of a problem.


Hah! Got it. Encourage Mexico to invade and annex Florida. There would be no 'export' so no ITAR. On second thought, Cuba. Great launch site.


The Time Machine idea has some potential.


Sorry. It's been a nasty morning. I'm looking for a chuckle.

Maybe set up the launch pad as an embassy.  If all parties are amenable...  Weirder deals have been coked up before ooops Freudian slip.

[Tangilinear Interjar]

I'm thinking that Madagascar, or even better, Somalia! Both have arid areas near the ocean, both have open ocean to the east, very inexpensive labor pool. Also both places might appreciate the positive economic impact of a launch site whose value is a large percentage of their GDP.

[Slarty1080]

I'm thinking that Madagascar, or even better, Somalia! Both have arid areas near the ocean, both have open ocean to the east, very inexpensive labor pool. Also both places might appreciate the positive economic impact of a launch site whose value is a large percentage of their GDP.

In Madagascar, especially across the south, they would have to completely rebuild the road first. Most of the tarmac has gone and most of what's left is just pothole. And I certainly wouldn't want to travel in the wet season...

[OTV Booster]

I'm thinking that Madagascar, or even better, Somalia! Both have arid areas near the ocean, both have open ocean to the east, very inexpensive labor pool. Also both places might appreciate the positive economic impact of a launch site whose value is a large percentage of their GDP.

Thank you all. The smile is spreading. I'm getting a serious Peter Sellers "Mouse That Roared" vibe.

[OTV Booster]

I'm thinking that Madagascar, or even better, Somalia! Both have arid areas near the ocean, both have open ocean to the east, very inexpensive labor pool. Also both places might appreciate the positive economic impact of a launch site whose value is a large percentage of their GDP.

Somalia. Yeah. Space pirates are all we need.

[Slothman]

I'm thinking that Madagascar, or even better, Somalia! Both have arid areas near the ocean, both have open ocean to the east, very inexpensive labor pool. Also both places might appreciate the positive economic impact of a launch site whose value is a large percentage of their GDP.

Somalia. Yeah. Space pirates are all we need.

Yeah there's a reason why space companies keep their shipping routes for satellites etc secret when for example transporting them to Guyana...

[StraumliBlight]

USAF just awarded Canopy Aerospace a $2.8M contract to build a transpiration-cooled TPS. Maybe SpaceX will revisit the idea as its TRL increases.

Canopy is developing a transpiration-cooled thermal protection system enabled by Canopy’s advances in additive manufacturing of ceramic materials. This innovative technology leverages the benefits of transpiration cooling to enhance the thermal resilience of TPS, enabling hypersonic systems to operate at higher speeds and perform more aggressive maneuvers.

Of note, transpiration cooling is one of the only researched technologies that could enable true reusability for mass return from orbit on ballistic trajectories. By pursuing the development of transpiration-cooled TPS with integrated cooling channels, Canopy aims to push the boundaries of TPS technology, aligning with the DAF's strategic objectives and reinforcing the United States' leadership in hypersonic technology development.