Author Topic: Starship heat shield  (Read 1266894 times)

Online meekGee

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3480 on: 11/25/2023 02:57 pm »
yes a stupid post on my behalf perhaps, also the temp of the SS will be problem for silicone,
heres a better idea:
velcro made from material that can handle the temps...........or similar to velcro, the SS clips are just not good.
heres pic of early in flight showing approx 100 cells gone........need to zoom to count them.
Yup you got it, problem solved.
ABCD - Always Be Counting Down

Offline midaswelby

Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3481 on: 12/06/2023 07:25 pm »
Cross posting this, correctly I hope.  My thought was that the size of the TPS tiles being reduced also reduces several issues, such as strength of the tile, gap size and spacing, geometry in non-symmetrical areas of the vehicle, etc .  Notice the frames already attached in the image, suggesting more frame and less tile body might also be beneficial.  Obviously, far greater number of tiles to manufacture and mount, but I thought it interesting to consider the possibilities of this new approach. 

https://twitter.com/labpadre/status/1732419872079204851

https://twitter.com/labpadre/status/1732419872079204851

Quote
New in the Ring Yard: A test barrel with what appears to be pins arranged for much smaller TPS tiles. Current theory is that these might be placed over the ship section seams instead of using glued-on tiles.

@CosmicalChief
@Ringwatchers

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3482 on: 12/08/2023 03:04 pm »
Cross posting this, correctly I hope.  My thought was that the size of the TPS tiles being reduced also reduces several issues, such as strength of the tile, gap size and spacing, geometry in non-symmetrical areas of the vehicle, etc .  Notice the frames already attached in the image, suggesting more frame and less tile body might also be beneficial.  Obviously, far greater number of tiles to manufacture and mount, but I thought it interesting to consider the possibilities of this new approach. 

https://twitter.com/labpadre/status/1732419872079204851

https://twitter.com/labpadre/status/1732419872079204851

Quote
New in the Ring Yard: A test barrel with what appears to be pins arranged for much smaller TPS tiles. Current theory is that these might be placed over the ship section seams instead of using glued-on tiles.

@CosmicalChief
@Ringwatchers

Interesting development.  Will be interesting to see where this goes.

I wonder if there is also some manufacturing advantages.  Yes it's more tiles but maybe there are some ways to make smaller tiles faster and more consistent. More automated, less scrap, maybe.

Tighter gaps seems important too.

Anyway, it's good to see some iteration on the heat shield.
Wildly optimistic prediction, Superheavy recovery on IFT-4 or IFT-5

Offline BT52

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3483 on: 12/08/2023 04:49 pm »
I would say so yes. Like in chip production and its wafer reduction scraps. Smaller tiles can make usage of existing furnaces much more efficient. But overall cost of production with hand labour will go up. So its paramount to use totally robotic assembly and attachment checks. Although for prototyping hand labour make sense ofc. Because they are not even close to be locked in final alpha design. Even tho they have imbedded foretaught with its designs. The later is very important and i like that.

I would go further and develop glue on tiles and make it that way. Wings (elerons) and nose already use it. I would just scrap it. Pick and place machines with already preapplied glue tiles would be scary fast.

Furthermore too satisfied tolerance stack up make tiles wedge shape or  what else. Or even make some grove as aero shield between seems. Klyo wool can be scraped or just used on edges in preaplied form on tile itself as sealant. Like muffin paper cup if u think about it. 

Online InterestedEngineer

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3484 on: 02/08/2024 05:06 pm »
From the WB-57 footage, the heat shield isn't looking so good.  Snapshot from 13:04:42


Offline Hog

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3485 on: 02/09/2024 06:19 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
Paul

Online wannamoonbase

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3486 on: 02/09/2024 06:41 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.

I've always considered the heat shield the single most critical element of Starship.

I think the smaller tiles we've seen a good step forward.  They will solve the problem but it's anyone's guess how long it will take.

I think the pace of progress has been waiting for flights, they were focused on getting to the point of flying.  Now that they are flying it will develop.
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Offline alang

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3487 on: 02/10/2024 05:55 pm »
"I've always considered the heat shield the single most critical element of Starship."

This has problem answered many times, so please delete if necessary:
I've always assumed that the heat shield of the moving surfaces to be the most critical element of Starship, especially the area where the surfaces hinge. Is it known if the moving surfaces with be locked into a particular orientation during entry, because if they are not then there are effectively many more heat shield and reentry heating profiles to be modelled and tested than if they are fixed for a period.

Offline eriblo

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3488 on: 02/10/2024 06:10 pm »
"I've always considered the heat shield the single most critical element of Starship."

This has problem answered many times, so please delete if necessary:
I've always assumed that the heat shield of the moving surfaces to be the most critical element of Starship, especially the area where the surfaces hinge. Is it known if the moving surfaces with be locked into a particular orientation during entry, because if they are not then there are effectively many more heat shield and reentry heating profiles to be modelled and tested than if they are fixed for a period.
The reason they have moving surfaces is to trim and steer during EDL so they will be moving. Starship is also, unlike capsules, at best marginally stable in several axis so it would most likely tumble without active control.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3489 on: 02/10/2024 09:15 pm »
The tiles on the control surfaces are not mounted directly to tanks containing cryogenic propellants. The tanks move with pressurization and changes in temperature, they expose the tile system to cycles of extreme cold, and pretty dang hot sitting in the Texas sun.

It might be harder to model the air flow, but getting em to stay put should be easier.

Offline ETurner

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3490 on: 02/11/2024 09:19 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
But the TPS hasn't even got hot yet.
I don't get it.

Offline eriblo

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3491 on: 02/11/2024 09:24 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
But the TPS hasn't even got hot yet.
I don't get it.
Short version: gluing glass to stainless steel is difficult.

Offline Kspbutitscursed

Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3492 on: 02/11/2024 09:38 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
But the TPS hasn't even got hot yet.
I don't get it.
Short version: gluing glass to stainless steel is difficult.
well on most of the tiles they are machanically attached via the pins on the vehicles
I attempt to fly in ksp
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Offline Crispy

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3493 on: 02/13/2024 07:02 am »
YouTube channel "Breaking Taps" has a a great video where he puts a shuttle tile fragment and a S24 tile in a scanning electron microscope to compare. He also makes his own tile to explain the process.


Offline whitelancer64

Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3494 on: 02/13/2024 03:25 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
But the TPS hasn't even got hot yet.
I don't get it.
Short version: gluing glass to stainless steel is difficult.
well on most of the tiles they are machanically attached via the pins on the vehicles

Which actually is a fair point. I don't think any of the glued tiles have come off, only the ones mechanically attached with pins.
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Offline eriblo

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3495 on: 02/13/2024 03:51 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
But the TPS hasn't even got hot yet.
I don't get it.
Short version: gluing glass to stainless steel is difficult.
well on most of the tiles they are machanically attached via the pins on the vehicles
Which actually is a fair point. I don't think any of the glued tiles have come off, only the ones mechanically attached with pins.
It was the other way around on S25, most if the lost tiles looked to be glued.

Offline equiserre

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3496 on: 02/13/2024 04:35 pm »
I find it very interesting that even after all these years, the Thermal Protection System(TPS) remains such a challenge. Darned laws of thermodynamics, but I'm sure they'll get there.
But the TPS hasn't even got hot yet.
I don't get it.
Short version: gluing glass to stainless steel is difficult.
well on most of the tiles they are machanically attached via the pins on the vehicles
Which actually is a fair point. I don't think any of the glued tiles have come off, only the ones mechanically attached with pins.
It was the other way around on S25, most if the lost tiles looked to be glued.
Yes, but interestingly not in the nose?

Offline Brigantine

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3497 on: 02/14/2024 08:06 am »
The static fire test stand is lower to the ground than the OLM, and even then the full stack doesn't have tiles near the aft end.

If a static fire test was shaking tiles lose on the nose, that would need more explaining than damaged tiles close to the forcing.

It will be interesting to see whether the tiles lost on the actual flight has the same pattern re glued vs pinned (less vibration, more aerodynamic forces)- and then whether the Masseys static fire test stand impacts differently to the suborbital stand. (is it higher?)

Online catdlr

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3498 on: 02/17/2024 08:50 pm »
The Science of SpaceX Starshipís Thermal Tiles


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Offline Nascat

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Re: Starship heat shield
« Reply #3499 on: 02/24/2024 01:59 pm »
Hello, Iíve been finding tiles from SN25 in the Caribbean. Iíve also found others that I donít think are from SN25, can anyone help me identify these? The heat scorched one is really cool! Thanks
« Last Edit: 02/24/2024 05:27 pm by Nascat »

 

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