Author Topic: Elon The Boring Company  (Read 1617314 times)

Offline meekGee

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5040 on: 11/23/2023 08:10 pm »
City and the Stars by Arthur C Clarke.
Although it only went back and forth to one destination, the other lines were closed.
Yes!  The walkways were solid in Z, but fluid in X-Y.  Lile a flowing frozen stream.  At the end of the line it poured into a drain and got piped to the other end...

Oh right and then there was the subway, yes.  Similar to the one in the Mote, but actually very 20th century Earth.

The reason it's not in fiction is that Sci Fi typically takes one technology and extrapolates it.  TBC is a combination of two main ideas, none of which is terribly extrapolated, but both working together:
- Faster and cheaper narrow-bore tunneling technology
- Fully-autonomous driving in a structured and protected environment

And to some degree, electric cars and limited self driving in the unstructured world.

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Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5041 on: 11/24/2023 12:17 am »
- The cars are free to roam when outside the service, so it goes everywhere.
Current TBC concept (that if the only system in operation, and that of the only system under construction) has fully retained vehicles. No vehicles exiting the system to drive on open roads, and no non-system vehicles permitted to enter.
For now. If autonomous cars ever live up to their potential the system owned cars would be free to give curb service. For POVs autonomous in tunnel operation would probably be a requirement. Along with some sort of open interface so that they would integrate into the system.


Elon got ahead of himself a bit on autonomous. It shouldn't be all that hard for in tunnel driving but once it becomes useful on the surface it's a whole new ball game.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5042 on: 11/24/2023 02:33 am »
Itís not like itís impossible. Waymo is existence proof you can brute force it with enough sensors and mapping on limited geographical routes, exactly like TBC tunnels.

But also, TBC could also brute force it by using vehicles with higher occupancy, like the stretch limo Model Xes they put in their original bid. In those cases, driver labor costs arenít a significant problem. At least, not for a mass transit system like the Vegas Loop.
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Offline meekGee

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5043 on: 11/24/2023 02:37 am »
- The cars are free to roam when outside the service, so it goes everywhere.
Current TBC concept (that if the only system in operation, and that of the only system under construction) has fully retained vehicles. No vehicles exiting the system to drive on open roads, and no non-system vehicles permitted to enter.
For now. If autonomous cars ever live up to their potential the system owned cars would be free to give curb service. For POVs autonomous in tunnel operation would probably be a requirement. Along with some sort of open interface so that they would integrate into the system.


Elon got ahead of himself a bit on autonomous. It shouldn't be all that hard for in tunnel driving but once it becomes useful on the surface it's a whole new ball game.
When I said "free to roam" I didn't mean to imply autonomous driving is necessary outside the system.

I actually think people like to drive, so it's a good system to have...
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Offline edzieba

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5044 on: 11/24/2023 12:31 pm »
A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly.

Speak for yourself. Car free cities suck.
Car free cities where you can whip out your phone and call an autonomous zero-emissions vehicle to your door any time of the day or night sound awesome, tbh.

Or where you can take your own car in but it has to be zero-emissions and you have to hand control over to the network as you enter, and then it travels almost entirely underground.
In all of the SciFi I've read, I've never come across something like the TBC concept.
Probably because reality beat Sci-Fi to market, so it was old hat by then. Doesn't need to be a new concept to work, and implementation matters, but lets not pretend Loop is some magical new idea any more than SpaceX re-using rockets was a magical new idea.

Personal Rapid Transit systems have been built. TBC's 'Loop' is a classic Personal Rapid transit system. The question is whether the combination of "put it in tunnels and try and make the tunnels cheaper" and "make the vehicles cheaper by minimally customising production road cars" make make this particular PRT implementation more viable than previous ones. It could turn out there are systemic issues that make the idea unattractive to passengers no matter what the price/ride is, or it could turn out there was merely a price threshold a service needed to be under for people to consider using it en mass that Loop can hit and previous systems did not.

Offline meekGee

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5045 on: 11/24/2023 01:07 pm »

A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly.

Speak for yourself. Car free cities suck.
Car free cities where you can whip out your phone and call an autonomous zero-emissions vehicle to your door any time of the day or night sound awesome, tbh.

Or where you can take your own car in but it has to be zero-emissions and you have to hand control over to the network as you enter, and then it travels almost entirely underground.
In all of the SciFi I've read, I've never come across something like the TBC concept.
Probably because reality beat Sci-Fi to market, so it was old hat by then. Doesn't need to be a new concept to work, and implementation matters, but lets not pretend Loop is some magical new idea any more than SpaceX re-using rockets was a magical new idea.

Personal Rapid Transit systems have been built. TBC's 'Loop' is a classic Personal Rapid transit system. The question is whether the combination of "put it in tunnels and try and make the tunnels cheaper" and "make the vehicles cheaper by minimally customising production road cars" make make this particular PRT implementation more viable than previous ones. It could turn out there are systemic issues that make the idea unattractive to passengers no matter what the price/ride is, or it could turn out there was merely a price threshold a service needed to be under for people to consider using it en mass that Loop can hit and previous systems did not.

Plus, actually sitting your ass down and doing it, as opposed to just talking about it - that's something Musk does.  E.g. Electric cars.

As for "just add cheap tunneling", that's actually a leap.  And one that wasn't just a matter of putting existing technologies together.

So yeah.  Original, to the point where even in sci fi nobody thought about it.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2023 08:42 pm by meekGee »
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Offline EL_DIABLO

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5046 on: 11/24/2023 05:03 pm »
A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly.

Speak for yourself. Car free cities suck.
Car free cities where you can whip out your phone and call an autonomous zero-emissions vehicle to your door any time of the day or night sound awesome, tbh.

Or where you can take your own car in but it has to be zero-emissions and you have to hand control over to the network as you enter, and then it travels almost entirely underground.

That's not really a car free city  ;)

A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly.

Speak for yourself. Car free cities suck.
I presume you've never tried being a pedestrian or tried riding a bike in a city.

I have been to Amsterdam, most over hyped city on the planet.

Car free cities suck because public transport is miserable. Riding a bike is great, that's true ... only if the weather co-operates, you don't need to go from one side of the city to the other, let alone out of the city, and you don't need to transport anything larger than a shopping bag. Car free cities are great for people who don't have a life, there I said it.

The whole phobia against cars in cities is completely irrational, EVs solve all the problems.

- The cars are free to roam when outside the service, so it goes everywhere.
Current TBC concept (that if the only system in operation, and that of the only system under construction) has fully retained vehicles. No vehicles exiting the system to drive on open roads, and no non-system vehicles permitted to enter.
This is such a poor argument... 

If you want to compare the current TBC system to anything, compare it to the first trains...

The current system is not even a prototype of the full system. It just illustrates a small subset of functionality, barely a boring exercise.
If the LVCC current system is not a prototype, and the Vegas Loop is not a prototype, what are they and why is TBC building them? Why are we not allowed to judge TBC's system based on the only projects they have either built or are building (I'd add 'or proposed', but all other proposals have been unexisted by TBC)?

Because you have to crawl before you can walk, the vision is for it to be autonomous and linked to surface roads.

The only thing that gives me a pause is the safety aspect given how narrow the tunnels are.

Offline steveleach

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5047 on: 11/24/2023 05:08 pm »
Car free cities where you can whip out your phone and call an autonomous zero-emissions vehicle to your door any time of the day or night sound awesome, tbh.

Or where you can take your own car in but it has to be zero-emissions and you have to hand control over to the network as you enter, and then it travels almost entirely underground.

That's not really a car free city  ;)
It is on the surface, which is kind of the point: you get all of the benefits of the cars and all the benefits of the car-free city.

Yes, a lot of (but not all) public transport is miserable, but the Loop isn't really (when fully realised).

Online Zed_Noir

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5048 on: 11/24/2023 05:10 pm »
.....
In all of the SciFi I've read, I've never come across something like the TBC concept.
.....
I have read many SciFi stories where they have something like pod cars that can be summoned as a service. However they usually tied that concept to aerial vehicles and avoid ground infrastructure like roads, bridges and tunnels. But in some stories the pod car also functions as an elevator car and interior transportation inside buildings.

Don't asked me to quote the stories, got a library of over several thousand SciFi tomes. :P

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5049 on: 11/24/2023 05:17 pm »
- The cars are free to roam when outside the service, so it goes everywhere.
Current TBC concept (that if the only system in operation, and that of the only system under construction) has fully retained vehicles. No vehicles exiting the system to drive on open roads, and no non-system vehicles permitted to enter.
For now. If autonomous cars ever live up to their potential the system owned cars would be free to give curb service. For POVs autonomous in tunnel operation would probably be a requirement. Along with some sort of open interface so that they would integrate into the system.


Elon got ahead of himself a bit on autonomous. It shouldn't be all that hard for in tunnel driving but once it becomes useful on the surface it's a whole new ball game.
When I said "free to roam" I didn't mean to imply autonomous driving is necessary outside the system.

I actually think people like to drive, so it's a good system to have...
If the car must yield control to the system in order to use the tunnels (or the entire city), then it's not autonomous. It's under system control. This is not just a trivial semantic distinction: true autonomy is a lot harder than system control. The reason we are blurring the distinction here is that companies are currently trying to implement autonomy, and nobody is trying for the much more mundane system control. For system control, the individual cars don't need much more than what is now called "enhanced cruise control" (or what Tesla calls "autopilot"). When the whole system is under single control, the individual car does not need to figure out for itself whether or not the car ahead of it is about to stop or accelerate or change lanes. In addition, under system control the system is far more efficient. Among other things it can set up "trains" of cars with essentially no headway, and can control things like merging and exiting.

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5050 on: 11/24/2023 06:07 pm »
Please stop comparing TBC to SpaceX (Falcon whatever) vs the competition. It's not at all comparable. The space industry vs the global transit sector and totally night and day. There are many cities all over the world who have amazing transit systems that are built at a reasonable cost and they don't use silly car tunnels. Why can't some of you understand that not all of Elon's ideas are brilliant? Some of them are pretty dumb, like this one.

It's a fundamentally flawed concept because it uses cars. A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly. This is fundamentally against the TBC because it's a conflict of interest. How can you not see it for what it is? Elon Musk owns a car company and comes up with a transit "solution". It's just a way for him to sell more cars, and this is fundamentally against what most cities are trying to do -- be less car dependant.
The current concept of a car is a (mostly) hydrocarbon powered palace running on hydrocarbon toroidal balloons. It's manually and poorly driven, with room for five to eight occupants but averages a bit over one. It weigh ranges from a ton+ to (I'm grasping here) nearly three tons. Some variants can only carry two or three occupants but have a large bin on the back capable of holding .5 to 1.5 tons and rarely carries anything. The fit and finish is usually more refined than any other item most people own. Many owners observe the weekly ritual of cleaning it inside and out and treating many of the surfaces with fine unguents.

Yeah, it's days are numbered. But how much  does it have to change before it's no longer a car? If it changed one small step at a time to a publicly owned human sized capsule moving through pneumatic tubes the frog in a pot effect might leave still called a 'car'.


Mass public transit works in many places but not everywhere. Because of abundant inexpensive land and other reasons too detailed to go into here, the US opted for sprawl. Mass transit depends on a dense population and that's one thing sprawl doesn't have. From what I've seen, it works in the dense inner cores of the older, pre automotive cities. Out in the burbs, it only works well when combined with cars for that last mile. Things like the train commute into Manhattan.

The only way mass transit, bicycles and pedestrian traffic can conquer the burbs is to completely revamp the burbs. If even possible this will take a loooong time. 'Til then, the last mile problem is best served by what we call a 'car'. Elon may be too far out in front but what he proposes is one option for the transition period.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2023 06:08 pm by OTV Booster »
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Offline chopsticks

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5051 on: 11/24/2023 06:45 pm »
Please stop comparing TBC to SpaceX (Falcon whatever) vs the competition. It's not at all comparable. The space industry vs the global transit sector and totally night and day. There are many cities all over the world who have amazing transit systems that are built at a reasonable cost and they don't use silly car tunnels. Why can't some of you understand that not all of Elon's ideas are brilliant? Some of them are pretty dumb, like this one.

It's a fundamentally flawed concept because it uses cars. A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly. This is fundamentally against the TBC because it's a conflict of interest. How can you not see it for what it is? Elon Musk owns a car company and comes up with a transit "solution". It's just a way for him to sell more cars, and this is fundamentally against what most cities are trying to do -- be less car dependant.
The current concept of a car is a (mostly) hydrocarbon powered palace running on hydrocarbon toroidal balloons. It's manually and poorly driven, with room for five to eight occupants but averages a bit over one. It weigh ranges from a ton+ to (I'm grasping here) nearly three tons. Some variants can only carry two or three occupants but have a large bin on the back capable of holding .5 to 1.5 tons and rarely carries anything. The fit and finish is usually more refined than any other item most people own. Many owners observe the weekly ritual of cleaning it inside and out and treating many of the surfaces with fine unguents.

Yeah, it's days are numbered. But how much  does it have to change before it's no longer a car? If it changed one small step at a time to a publicly owned human sized capsule moving through pneumatic tubes the frog in a pot effect might leave still called a 'car'.


Mass public transit works in many places but not everywhere. Because of abundant inexpensive land and other reasons too detailed to go into here, the US opted for sprawl.

No, it was mostly due to car manufacturer propaganda and the "suburban experiment" (basically created by car manufacturers).

Quote
Mass transit depends on a dense population and that's one thing sprawl doesn't have. From what I've seen, it works in the dense inner cores of the older, pre automotive cities. Out in the burbs, it only works well when combined with cars for that last mile. Things like the train commute into Manhattan.

The only way mass transit, bicycles and pedestrian traffic can conquer the burbs is to completely revamp the burbs. If even possible this will take a loooong time. 'Til then, the last mile problem is best served by what we call a 'car'. Elon may be too far out in front but what he proposes is one option for the transition period.

Exactly. Which is why there is a growing movement to get away from euclidian zoning in the US and Canada and densify. Sprawl is terrible for the environment and for society at large.

AVs and EVs are not the future we want (aside from what a lot of the techno-bros in here think). Densification and proper land use are where to start, plus thr implementation of the appropriate transit next (and not gadgetbahns). TOD is becoming increasingly popular, which is great if done right. A lot of the people posting in this thread should learn a thing or two about urbanism before cheering on an extremely dubious and potentially scammy transit "solution" like this.

Edit: let me just add that EVs are better than ICE vehicles, but everyone driving EVs without massive infrastructure changes is NOT the answer. It's sad though, most Americans (and Canadians) are way too car brained to understand any of this.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2023 06:47 pm by chopsticks »

Offline blasphemer

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5052 on: 11/24/2023 07:04 pm »
Exactly. Which is why there is a growing movement to get away from euclidian zoning in the US and Canada and densify. Sprawl is terrible for the environment and for society at large.

I am well aware of current trends in urbanism, YIMBYism and densification. They are good and have good logic behind them. We should densify and support public transport!

But it will always be just a part of the solution. There will always be plenty of people who do not want to live in a dense city, who want or need a personal car. You can pick the most public transport friendly region in the world. Plenty of people still use personal cars even there.



Another thing to consider is the root reasons WHY personal cars are considered *bad* in modern urbanism. The reason number one is pollution, chiefly CO2 but also particulates, noise etc. The reason number two is traffic jams due to their spatial inefficency.

Now you should realize that autonomous electric cars travelling in inexpensive 3-dimensional network of tunnels would go a long way towards solving both of these issues. So urbanism of the future may not be as anti-car as you may think.


Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5053 on: 11/24/2023 07:09 pm »
TBC does not yet operate in those countries.  That ship has long since sailed in North America.  And need I remind a Brit at this moment that adding on to effective transit systems is priced at heights that make the Chancellor of the Exchequer blush, leading to a continual descoping of even nationally important projects that use technology invented by the Brits 200 years ago?

Do I hear an "amen"?

Naaah I just hear the new Elizabeth line, opened after the Vegas loop, carrying 2e8 passengers/year. For a bit of perspective, thatís over 200x more than the Vegas loop. Car holes donít scale.

If we are talking about the same Elizabeth Line, it cost over $25 billion, or 500x more than the LVCC Loop.
Cost per mile/km would be a more interesting metric. After a baseline exists a $/passenger mile would be interesting too.


Not positioning for or against, just interested.
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Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5054 on: 11/24/2023 07:32 pm »
TBC does not yet operate in those countries.  That ship has long since sailed in North America.  And need I remind a Brit at this moment that adding on to effective transit systems is priced at heights that make the Chancellor of the Exchequer blush, leading to a continual descoping of even nationally important projects that use technology invented by the Brits 200 years ago?

Do I hear an "amen"?

Naaah I just hear the new Elizabeth line, opened after the Vegas loop, carrying 2e8 passengers/year. For a bit of perspective, thatís over 200x more than the Vegas loop. Car holes donít scale.

If we are talking about the same Elizabeth Line, it cost over $25 billion, or 500x more than the LVCC Loop.
Cost per mile/km would be a more interesting metric. After a baseline exists a $/passenger mile would be interesting too.


Not positioning for or against, just interested.
You will need to define what you mean by "kilometer" for the Elizabeth line, since it appears to use a complicated mix of shared rail above-ground segments and new underground segments. Maybe just use the cost and mileage of the new underground segments?

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5055 on: 11/24/2023 08:32 pm »
Please stop comparing TBC to SpaceX (Falcon whatever) vs the competition. It's not at all comparable. The space industry vs the global transit sector and totally night and day. There are many cities all over the world who have amazing transit systems that are built at a reasonable cost and they don't use silly car tunnels. Why can't some of you understand that not all of Elon's ideas are brilliant? Some of them are pretty dumb, like this one.

It's a fundamentally flawed concept because it uses cars. A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly. This is fundamentally against the TBC because it's a conflict of interest. How can you not see it for what it is? Elon Musk owns a car company and comes up with a transit "solution". It's just a way for him to sell more cars, and this is fundamentally against what most cities are trying to do -- be less car dependant.
The current concept of a car is a (mostly) hydrocarbon powered palace running on hydrocarbon toroidal balloons. It's manually and poorly driven, with room for five to eight occupants but averages a bit over one. It weigh ranges from a ton+ to (I'm grasping here) nearly three tons. Some variants can only carry two or three occupants but have a large bin on the back capable of holding .5 to 1.5 tons and rarely carries anything. The fit and finish is usually more refined than any other item most people own. Many owners observe the weekly ritual of cleaning it inside and out and treating many of the surfaces with fine unguents.

Yeah, it's days are numbered. But how much  does it have to change before it's no longer a car? If it changed one small step at a time to a publicly owned human sized capsule moving through pneumatic tubes the frog in a pot effect might leave still called a 'car'.


Mass public transit works in many places but not everywhere. Because of abundant inexpensive land and other reasons too detailed to go into here, the US opted for sprawl.

No, it was mostly due to car manufacturer propaganda and the "suburban experiment" (basically created by car manufacturers).

Quote
Mass transit depends on a dense population and that's one thing sprawl doesn't have. From what I've seen, it works in the dense inner cores of the older, pre automotive cities. Out in the burbs, it only works well when combined with cars for that last mile. Things like the train commute into Manhattan.

The only way mass transit, bicycles and pedestrian traffic can conquer the burbs is to completely revamp the burbs. If even possible this will take a loooong time. 'Til then, the last mile problem is best served by what we call a 'car'. Elon may be too far out in front but what he proposes is one option for the transition period.

Exactly. Which is why there is a growing movement to get away from euclidian zoning in the US and Canada and densify. Sprawl is terrible for the environment and for society at large.

AVs and EVs are not the future we want (aside from what a lot of the techno-bros in here think). Densification and proper land use are where to start, plus thr implementation of the appropriate transit next (and not gadgetbahns). TOD is becoming increasingly popular, which is great if done right. A lot of the people posting in this thread should learn a thing or two about urbanism before cheering on an extremely dubious and potentially scammy transit "solution" like this.

Edit: let me just add that EVs are better than ICE vehicles, but everyone driving EVs without massive infrastructure changes is NOT the answer. It's sad though, most Americans (and Canadians) are way too car brained to understand any of this.
My read is that the car manufacturers recognized a trend and pumped it for all it was worth. They didn't create the trend.


After WW2 all the returning GIs wanted to make kids, get a job and buy a house, in no particular order. Other than the Soviets, we were the only industrial power not hammered flat, and the Soviets were half hammered. The result was an incredibly strong economy and the modern incarnation of the burbs.


Suburban housing was less expensive than in the core city but the city was where the jobs were. The car manufacturers were no longer making duce and a half trucks, tanks and B-24s so they did what came natural. They made cars. I suspect credit was easy so what we got was cars and burbs at an ever increasing rate. And roads. I'm old enough to remember all day family road trips of 250 miles on what we would today call secondary roads.


That infrastructure was literally cast in concrete. It's easy enough to say "change it" but between the incredible  capital investment that would take and entrenched land ownership, it would be a slow process. A related inconvenience is truck based logistics.


Growing up in Pittsburgh I used an excellent mass transit system but I do remember many businesses that has steel trap doors in the sidewalk. These covered a chute into the basement for night deliveries. There was no alley and no room for a loading dock let alone a semi with a pup trailer. In the burbs there's plenty of room for big trucks with 53' trailers and loading docks.


The point is, you can't wave a magic wand and dictate that a complex fur ball like current infrastructure become radially different. The best we can hope for is new construction to follow a different pattern and allow the old burbs to decay. What Musk offers is a plausible path for at least the interim and maybe long term. We can agree to disagree on that last.

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Offline OTV Booster

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5056 on: 11/24/2023 08:40 pm »
TBC does not yet operate in those countries.  That ship has long since sailed in North America.  And need I remind a Brit at this moment that adding on to effective transit systems is priced at heights that make the Chancellor of the Exchequer blush, leading to a continual descoping of even nationally important projects that use technology invented by the Brits 200 years ago?

Do I hear an "amen"?

Naaah I just hear the new Elizabeth line, opened after the Vegas loop, carrying 2e8 passengers/year. For a bit of perspective, thatís over 200x more than the Vegas loop. Car holes donít scale.

If we are talking about the same Elizabeth Line, it cost over $25 billion, or 500x more than the LVCC Loop.
Cost per mile/km would be a more interesting metric. After a baseline exists a $/passenger mile would be interesting too.


Not positioning for or against, just interested.
You will need to define what you mean by "kilometer" for the Elizabeth line, since it appears to use a complicated mix of shared rail above-ground segments and new underground segments. Maybe just use the cost and mileage of the new underground segments?
That would work for construction costs. Presumably their accounting would allow separating operating expenses but system wide data would be good too.
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Offline chopsticks

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5057 on: 11/24/2023 08:48 pm »
A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly.

Speak for yourself. Car free cities suck.
Car free cities where you can whip out your phone and call an autonomous zero-emissions vehicle to your door any time of the day or night sound awesome, tbh.

Or where you can take your own car in but it has to be zero-emissions and you have to hand control over to the network as you enter, and then it travels almost entirely underground.

That's not really a car free city  ;)

A futuristic city should be nearly free of cars and be pedestrian and bike friendly.

Speak for yourself. Car free cities suck.
I presume you've never tried being a pedestrian or tried riding a bike in a city.

I have been to Amsterdam, most over hyped city on the planet.

Car free cities suck because public transport is miserable. Riding a bike is great, that's true ... only if the weather co-operates, you don't need to go from one side of the city to the other, let alone out of the city, and you don't need to transport anything larger than a shopping bag. Car free cities are great for people who don't have a life, there I said it.

The whole phobia against cars in cities is completely irrational, EVs solve all the problems.

Public transportation is really great in a lot of cities outside of the US and Canada. As for riding a bike -- lots of people do it in all sorts of weather willingly, are you going to melt or something? Or why couldn't you walk 5 minutes with an umbrella to hop on the next tram or metro? Why do you need a two ton metal box to take you everywhere?

Cars objectively make cities worse for everyone who isn't in one, and many people would be happy to ditch their cars or use them way less given the opportunity. I think many people who live in these "car free cities" (I don't actually think that exists, we should say less car dependent) would vehemently disagree with you that they don't have a life. I would say the opposite: being forced to own a car to do basic functions, especially if you can hardly afford it makes you not have a life.

The only problems EVs solve is fewer carbon emissions and pollution. They are also quieter at low speeds (not higher speeds) but they are still two ton machines that will happily murder a cyclist or pedestrian. And also the least space efficient way to get around, using up valuable real estate.
« Last Edit: 11/24/2023 08:53 pm by chopsticks »

Offline Oersted

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #5058 on: 11/24/2023 09:25 pm »
Batteries don't become lighter when they empty, unlike gas tanks. Heavy EV's gobble up tires like there was no tomorrow and those rubber particles pollute a lot. I am still totally for EV's but we shouldn't pretend there are no problems with them.

The Boring infrastructure, is  - in my mind - really the best of both worlds. I hope it becomes reality somewhere.

Offline Chris Bergin

« Last Edit: 11/24/2023 10:03 pm by Chris Bergin »
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