Author Topic: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion  (Read 292147 times)

Offline Stimbergi

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #160 on: 09/08/2019 04:58 pm »
If you look close to the bottom of the stack there is a yellow something taped around the circumference. Wazzat?
measuring tape

Offline RotoSequence

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #161 on: 09/08/2019 05:11 pm »
Also from the Farrielle Mohan images, I count a line of  32+ "unistruts" on the tank module. If this is for mounting a leg/fin it's a long SOB. More likely a utility  raceway, but perhaps too wide?

I've been expecting full body chines ever since I saw those struts on both the tank section of Mark 2 and the fairing section of Mark 1.

I'm not an engineer, but I would imagine the pluses and minuses for that could be:

Plus:

- Adds rigidity to the structure
- Provides more drag, and more lift

Minus:

- Chines would suffer greater heating, so might need to be cooled or made of some other material (i.e. more complexity to the design)
- SpaceX tries to have a solution provide two benefits, such as fins also acting as legs, and chines may not provide that
- Are they necessary?

One more plus for chines, they would work as external raceways, limiting SpaceX's need to open the tanks to maintain any plumbing or electrical systems in the vehicle, while creating less need to put holes in the tanks for flush mounted and moving/retractable surfaces.

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Offline frederickm17

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #163 on: 09/08/2019 08:04 pm »
Quote
Latest work @SpaceX Cocoa, Florida on MK2 #STARSHIP today

https://twitter.com/farryfaz/status/1170535442342666240


Zoom in on the rings. Some rings have yellow writing on them that says "scrap" so the total of usable rings may be lower.
« Last Edit: 09/08/2019 08:05 pm by frederickm17 »

Offline Spock1108

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #164 on: 09/08/2019 08:19 pm »
Is it my impression or have they also installed the second bulkhead?
Francesco Maio

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #165 on: 09/08/2019 08:35 pm »
Zoom in on the rings. Some rings have yellow writing on them that says "scrap" so the total of usable rings may be lower.

I see at least 3 of those.

Offline Michael Paul

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #166 on: 09/08/2019 11:25 pm »
Also from the Farrielle Mohan images, I count a line of  32+ "unistruts" on the tank module. If this is for mounting a leg/fin it's a long SOB. More likely a utility  raceway, but perhaps too wide?

I've been expecting full body chines ever since I saw those struts on both the tank section of Mark 2 and the fairing section of Mark 1.

I'm not an engineer, but I would imagine the pluses and minuses for that could be:

Plus:

- Adds rigidity to the structure
- Provides more drag, and more lift

Minus:

- Chines would suffer greater heating, so might need to be cooled or made of some other material (i.e. more complexity to the design)
- SpaceX tries to have a solution provide two benefits, such as fins also acting as legs, and chines may not provide that
- Are they necessary?

One more plus for chines, they would work as external raceways, limiting SpaceX's need to open the tanks to maintain any plumbing or electrical systems in the vehicle, while creating less need to put holes in the tanks for flush mounted and moving/retractable surfaces.
Chine is incorrect terminology, a chine is a sharp change in the angle of a hull, cross- sectionally.
The correct term is sponson, which is a purposeful bump out either in a single location or the length of a hull.

Offline matthewkantar

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #167 on: 09/09/2019 12:05 am »
Chine is incorrect terminology, a chine is a sharp change in the angle of a hull, cross- sectionally.
The correct term is sponson, which is a purposeful bump out either in a single location or the length of a hull.

"Chine" is accurate, see SR-71. This is aerospace terminology, not ship building.

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #168 on: 09/09/2019 12:27 am »
Chine is incorrect terminology, a chine is a sharp change in the angle of a hull, cross- sectionally.
The correct term is sponson, which is a purposeful bump out either in a single location or the length of a hull.

"Chine" is accurate, see SR-71. This is aerospace terminology, not ship building.

If they are big enough to start turning it into a double-delta wing they are better referred to as strakes.
But I doubt we will see substantial strakes - they are most effective at extending the unstalled AOA range of a delta wing (due to the vortex) and the "belly flop" EDL profile is way past the stall.

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #169 on: 09/09/2019 12:34 am »
Speculation on wing/fin/whatever structure and nomenclature would be better placed in the Starship Engineering thread or the Elon's Next Presentation Speculation thread.

Offline AU1.52

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #170 on: 09/09/2019 01:00 am »
23 rings on the latest flyby video
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48893.msg1990393#msg1990393

25 rings - one being lifted and one all the way at the front.

Offline fael097

23 rings on the latest flyby video
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48893.msg1990393#msg1990393

25 rings - one being lifted and one all the way at the front.

definitely 25, that's mind blowing. 10 rings more than bottom section currently has. if those rings are the same height as the other kind already stacked on mk2, it could stack up to 45 meters already
Rafael Adamy

Offline fael097

something curious can be seen on this pic, most rings have a "brushed" like, more matte finish, but at least two are polished. different suppliers maybe? perhaps different thickness?

also, all of them appear to have a smoother surface and less wrinkles than the stacked rings, however maybe that's just because they haven't been welded onto each other yet.

credits Farriele Mohan @FarryFaz on twitter
Rafael Adamy

Offline Neopork

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #173 on: 09/09/2019 02:22 am »
something curious can be seen on this pic, most rings have a "brushed" like, more matte finish, but at least two are polished. different suppliers maybe? perhaps different thickness?

also, all of them appear to have a smoother surface and less wrinkles than the stacked rings, however maybe that's just because they haven't been welded onto each other yet.

credits Farriele Mohan @FarryFaz on twitter

The SS rings were welded together from many smaller plates to form the 9m diameter ring. The staged rings on the ground are presumably for Super Heavy and they have been created from one long strip of stainless steel and formed into the ring. If you look closely, you will see that on those rings there is a single weld joint where they connected the two ends of the sheet. The metal sheet used for these new rings comes in a tightly wound roll covered in white plastic wrap. You can see some of these sitting around onsite.
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Offline aero

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #174 on: 09/09/2019 04:07 am »
Quote
The metal sheet used for these new rings comes in a tightly wound roll covered in white plastic wrap. You can see some of these sitting around onsite.

Is that them in the top left-center of the above image?
Retired, working interesting problems

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #175 on: 09/09/2019 04:08 am »
Also from the Farrielle Mohan images, I count a line of  32+ "unistruts" on the tank module. If this is for mounting a leg/fin it's a long SOB. More likely a utility  raceway, but perhaps too wide?

I've been expecting full body chines ever since I saw those struts on both the tank section of Mark 2 and the fairing section of Mark 1.

I'm not an engineer, but I would imagine the pluses and minuses for that could be:

Plus:

- Adds rigidity to the structure
- Provides more drag, and more lift

Minus:

- Chines would suffer greater heating, so might need to be cooled or made of some other material (i.e. more complexity to the design)
- SpaceX tries to have a solution provide two benefits, such as fins also acting as legs, and chines may not provide that
- Are they necessary?

One more plus for chines, they would work as external raceways, limiting SpaceX's need to open the tanks to maintain any plumbing or electrical systems in the vehicle, while creating less need to put holes in the tanks for flush mounted and moving/retractable surfaces.

Over in the Texas SS prototype thread Uhuznaa posted his idea of how it might fit together. This would do everything above with, to my mind, excellent aerodynamics. ISTM the loading would be directly inboard at the top about where the unistrut is.

Phil

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=48894.msg1990406#msg1990406


We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline OTV Booster

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #176 on: 09/09/2019 12:37 pm »
Chine is incorrect terminology, a chine is a sharp change in the angle of a hull, cross- sectionally.
The correct term is sponson, which is a purposeful bump out either in a single location or the length of a hull.

"Chine" is accurate, see SR-71. This is aerospace terminology, not ship building.

Aerospace has so far been looked upon as a cutting edge extension of aviation but SX is pushing in a direction that really has overlap with ship building. What is a finny thingie by any other name? Itís still a finny thingie.

Iíll shut up now.

Phil
We are on the cusp of revolutionary access to space. One hallmark of a revolution is that there is a disjuncture through which projections do not work. The thread must be picked up anew and the tapestry of history woven with a fresh pattern.

Offline Neopork

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #177 on: 09/09/2019 01:32 pm »
Chine is incorrect terminology, a chine is a sharp change in the angle of a hull, cross- sectionally.
The correct term is sponson, which is a purposeful bump out either in a single location or the length of a hull.

"Chine" is accurate, see SR-71. This is aerospace terminology, not ship building.

Aerospace has so far been looked upon as a cutting edge extension of aviation but SX is pushing in a direction that really has overlap with ship building. What is a finny thingie by any other name? Itís still a finny thingie.

Iíll shut up now.

Phil

There is no point in arguing about terminology if nobody has the correct answer, right? Starship is not a boat and it is not a plane. Based on the discussions about the fins, my understanding is that there has never been a vehicle that uses control surfaces for re-entry orientation and stability in this manner (correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, the control surfaces are their own thing and I guess we will just have to wait to see what SpaceX calls them.
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Offline Thunderscreech

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Re: SpaceX Starship : Florida Prototype(s) Thread 2 : Discussion
« Reply #178 on: 09/09/2019 01:36 pm »
The shuttle Columbia had visually distinct chines (and that was the name used by NASA) along the top of the interface between the delta wing and the fuselage so there's some aerospace precedent for the term being used this way, right?

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Offline fael097

something curious can be seen on this pic, most rings have a "brushed" like, more matte finish, but at least two are polished. different suppliers maybe? perhaps different thickness?

also, all of them appear to have a smoother surface and less wrinkles than the stacked rings, however maybe that's just because they haven't been welded onto each other yet.

credits Farriele Mohan @FarryFaz on twitter

The SS rings were welded together from many smaller plates to form the 9m diameter ring. The staged rings on the ground are presumably for Super Heavy and they have been created from one long strip of stainless steel and formed into the ring. If you look closely, you will see that on those rings there is a single weld joint where they connected the two ends of the sheet. The metal sheet used for these new rings comes in a tightly wound roll covered in white plastic wrap. You can see some of these sitting around onsite.

hey,
ok, I sppose I didn't make myself very clear, let me try again

currently there are 25 single sheet superheavy rings staged on the ground, supposedly all made the same way.

however from these high res aerial pictures now you can notice at least two of them have a different finish, those 2 are polished shiny stainless steel, in contrast to the other ones that have this brushed finish.

that's why I'm wondering if those are just from a different supplier, or if they are of a different thickness. surely they didn't polish those rings while they were making them.

make sure you zoom the picture and see it in full res, so you can see what I'm talking about.

this doesn't mean anything, I just find it curious and wonder how weird this is going to look when stacked, before they polish the whole thing
Rafael Adamy

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