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Robotic Spacecraft (Astronomy, Planetary, Earth, Solar/Heliophysics) => Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) and Mars 2020 Rover Section => Topic started by: racshot65 on 01/08/2012 09:46 am

Title: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: racshot65 on 01/08/2012 09:46 am
http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov/ (http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov/)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 01/08/2012 12:35 pm
Sigh, to bad they can not send a half dozen seismometer's to different locations to better map Mar's interior.

Considering it was built on the Phoenix platform, that flew on a Delta II, is it possible to fit two or more on the larger Atlas V? Or is there a chance this will fly on the Antares or Falcon 9?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/08/2012 08:09 pm
Sigh, to bad they can not send a half dozen seismometer's to different locations to better map Mar's interior.

Considering it was built on the Phoenix platform, that flew on a Delta II, is it possible to fit two or more on the larger Atlas V? Or is there a chance this will fly on the Antares or Falcon 9?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. There's a lot you can do with one really good seismometer (a really long integration of very high resolution and very good signal/noise can sometimes do the work of several such probes with mediocre seismometers... and when you develop a better model of the interior of Mars, the knowledge of the model can then allow you to pull better data out of the output of the seismometer... I once did a simulation that showed that if you don't have dissipation and have knowledge of the environment such as all the different interfaces that waves can bounce off, a single sensor can accurately map the location and characteristics of several disturbances simultaneously). This mission hasn't even been approved, yet... It's just one of three proposals in this mission class that may get approved (only one will). Budget is always tight for this sort of thing, so launching several of these isn't very realistic.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: simonbp on 01/18/2012 03:06 pm
This mission hasn't even been approved, yet... It's just one of three proposals in this mission class that may get approved (only one will).

And, it should be noted, it's going for a standard Discovery mission, which is hard for Mars missions, given that they have their own separate budget category (a Dan Goldin legacy).

Also, if it does not happen, all hope is not lost for a Mars geophysical mission, as it appears the "Red Dragon" that Ames is proposing for the following Discovery round includes a very similar instrument package (but larger).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 01/18/2012 03:30 pm
This mission hasn't even been approved, yet... It's just one of three proposals in this mission class that may get approved (only one will).

And, it should be noted, it's going for a standard Discovery mission, which is hard for Mars missions, given that they have their own separate budget category (a Dan Goldin legacy).


Used to, I believe.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/21/2012 02:54 am
Sigh, to bad they can not send a half dozen seismometer's to different locations to better map Mar's interior.

Considering it was built on the Phoenix platform, that flew on a Delta II, is it possible to fit two or more on the larger Atlas V? Or is there a chance this will fly on the Antares or Falcon 9?

Missed this post. FYI, the guy who is proposing InSight (formerly GeM), previously proposed a three-lander configuration called Cerberus (the three-headed mythological dog). That was proposed for a New Frontiers class mission, but JPL rejected it in an early stage and so it never got formalized. I have a PowerPoint on the proposal for it somewhere.

I figure that people probably hate when I do this, but I'll explain why the kind of mission you proposed above is not possible. The reason is that there are three classes of planetary missions:

Discovery--small, cost-capped, open to competition, any target is possible
New Frontiers--medium, cost-capped, open to competition, but the target must be selected from a list that is included in the decadal survey
Flagships--large, not cost-capped, run by JPL (no competition), the target is selected by the decadal survey

Any mission requiring more than one lander at Mars is going to cost more than the Discovery budget will allow, meaning that it has to be New Frontiers or a flagship. And no Mars seismology mission has been selected as a possible target for either New Frontiers or flagships. So there is no valid path for that type of mission to get approved.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 01/21/2012 01:07 pm
And no Mars seismology mission has been selected as a possible target for either New Frontiers or flagships.

are you sure? there was an interim NASA-sponsored NRC New Frontiers study in 2007 that suggested a Martian or lunar network as a possible mission, in addition to a “primitive” asteroid sample return, a Ganymede and a Io observer.
In fact, it was based on the conclusions that study that OSIRIS-REx was selected, as asteroid sample returns were not one of the suggested missions of the first decadal survey.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/21/2012 03:13 pm
And no Mars seismology mission has been selected as a possible target for either New Frontiers or flagships.

are you sure? there was an interim NASA-sponsored NRC New Frontiers study in 2007 that suggested a Martian or lunar network as a possible mission, in addition to a “primitive” asteroid sample return, a Ganymede and a Io observer.
In fact, it was based on the conclusions that study that OSIRIS-REx was selected, as asteroid sample returns were not one of the suggested missions of the first decadal survey.

Yes. I was the study director on that 2007 study (often called the NOSSE report because it was the Committee on New Opportunities in Solar System Exploration). That report did make a Mars network as one possible New Frontiers option, and OSIRIS-REx did come out of that report.

However, the decadal survey now supersedes that report (I was one of two study directors on the decadal survey), and the only valid New Frontiers options are the ones in the decadal survey. That includes a lunar seismic network, but not a Mars network.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/21/2012 09:16 pm
By the way, you can find tons of material on the decadal survey here:

http://sites.nationalacademies.org/SSB/CurrentProjects/ssb_052412

That includes numerous studies of various planetary missions.

Here are the missions approved in the New Frontiers program, no relative priority assigned:

Select NF-4 from among:
- Comet Surface Sample Return
- Lunar South Pole-Aitken Basin Sample Return
- Saturn Probe
- Trojan Tour and Rendezvous
- Venus In Situ Explorer

For NF-5:
- The remaining candidates from NF-4
- Io Observer
- Lunar Geophysical Network

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/22/2012 02:48 am
Just for good measure, these are the other New Frontiers options (LSPA and VISE not included because teams have actively studied them in the recent past and so the decadal survey did not have to do that.)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/22/2012 02:49 am
Here's the Trojan mission New Frontiers concept.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: iamlucky13 on 01/22/2012 11:21 pm
Does anyone know what else is being proposed so far as competitors for this round of Discovery funding?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/23/2012 02:10 am
Does anyone know what else is being proposed so far as competitors for this round of Discovery funding?

Yeah, InSight, Comet Hopper, and Titan Mare Explorer (TiME). There was a thread here last year discussing them. I posted pics and stuff. Dig around and I think you can find it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: iamlucky13 on 01/23/2012 08:19 pm
Thanks Blackstar. There's so much info constantly flowing through the site I have a hard time keeping track of smaller programs, especially at the preliminary stages. I also had a notion in my head that TiME was a New Frontiers class mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/24/2012 01:43 am
Thanks Blackstar. There's so much info constantly flowing through the site I have a hard time keeping track of smaller programs, especially at the preliminary stages. I also had a notion in my head that TiME was a New Frontiers class mission.

Dig around using "Titan" or "mare" as a search term and you should be able to find it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/20/2012 08:37 pm
Kinda related, so putting this on here for now:

RELEASE: 12-288

NEW NASA MISSION TO TAKE FIRST LOOK DEEP INSIDE MARS

WASHINGTON -- NASA has selected a new mission, set to launch in 2016,
that will take the first look into the deep interior of Mars to see
why the Red Planet evolved so differently from Earth as one of our
solar system's rocky planets.

The new mission, named InSight, will place instruments on the Martian
surface to investigate whether the core of Mars is solid or liquid
like Earth's and why Mars' crust is not divided into tectonic plates
that drift like Earth's. Detailed knowledge of the interior of Mars
in comparison to Earth will help scientists understand better how
terrestrial planets form and evolve.

"The exploration of Mars is a top priority for NASA, and the selection
of InSight ensures we will continue to unlock the mysteries of the
Red Planet and lay the groundwork for a future human mission there,"
NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "The recent successful
landing of the Curiosity rover has galvanized public interest in
space exploration and today's announcement makes clear there are more
exciting Mars missions to come."

InSight will be led by W. Bruce Banerdt at NASA's Jet Propulsion
Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, Calif. InSight's science team includes
U.S. and international co-investigators from universities, industry
and government agencies. The French space agency Centre National
d'Etudes Spatiales, or CNES, and the German Aerospace Center, or DLR,
are contributing instruments to InSight, which is scheduled to land
on Mars in September 2016 to begin its two-year scientific mission.

InSight is the 12th selection in NASA's series of Discovery-class
missions. Created in 1992, the Discovery Program sponsors frequent,
cost-capped solar system exploration missions with highly focused
scientific goals. NASA requested Discovery mission proposals in June
2010 and received 28. InSight was one of three proposed missions
selected in May 2011 for funding to conduct preliminary design
studies and analyses. The other two proposals were for missions to a
comet and Saturn's moon Titan.

InSight builds on spacecraft technology used in NASA's highly
successful Phoenix lander mission, which was launched to the Red
Planet in 2007 and determined water existed near the surface in the
Martian polar regions. By incorporating proven systems in the
mission, the InSight team demonstrated that the mission concept was
low-risk and could stay within the cost-constrained budget of
Discovery missions. The cost of the mission, excluding the launch
vehicle and related services, is capped at $425 million in 2010
dollars.

"Our Discovery Program enables scientists to use innovative approaches
to answering fundamental questions about our solar system in the
lowest cost mission category," said John Grunsfeld, associate
administrator for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA
Headquarters. "InSight will get to the 'core' of the nature of the
interior and structure of Mars, well below the observations we've
been able to make from orbit or the surface."

InSight will carry four instruments. JPL will provide an onboard
geodetic instrument to determine the planet's rotation axis and a
robotic arm and two cameras used to deploy and monitor instruments on
the Martian surface. CNES is leading an international consortium that
is building an instrument to measure seismic waves traveling through
the planet's interior. The German Aerospace Center is building a
subsurface heat probe to measure the flow of heat from the interior.

NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., manages the
Discovery Program for the agency's Science Mission Directorate in
Washington.

For more information about the Discovery Program, visit:

http://discovery.nasa.gov

For information about NASA and agency programs, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/20/2012 08:39 pm
There's past discussion about the different options (the two other non-selected missions) in the space science section.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/20/2012 09:07 pm
Let's more it in there for commonality.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 08/20/2012 09:23 pm
For Immediate Release
Contact: Patrick Boland, 202-225-3278


Rep. Schiff Hails Announcement of New Mission to Mars


Pasadena, CA -- Today, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) hailed the announcement of a new mission to Mars that will be launched in 2016 to build on the work of several generations of rovers, landers, and orbiters that have been exploring the Red Planet since the 1960s. The new mission, named InSight, will place a lander on the Martian surface to investigate whether the core of Mars is solid or liquid like Earth's and why Mars' crust is not divided into tectonic plates that drift like Earth's. Detailed knowledge of the interior of Mars in comparison to Earth will help scientists understand better how terrestrial planets form and evolve.

“This is fantastic news for our Mars exploration program and will answer several key questions about Martian geology and may help us to understand better the processes that led to Mars and the Earth evolving in such different directions, even though there is evidence that abundant water once flowed on the surface of Mars,” Schiff said. “Also, by announcing this new mission soon after the landing of Curiosity, NASA will help to preserve the entry, descent and landing capabilities that were so spectacularly demonstrated by the scientists at JPL, whose talents will be crucial to future planetary exploration.”

According to NASA, InSight is the 12th selection in the space agency’s series of Discovery-class missions. Created in 1992, the Discovery Program sponsors frequent, cost-capped solar system exploration missions with highly focused scientific goals. NASA requested Discovery mission proposals in June 2010 and received 28. InSight was one of three proposed missions selected in May 2011 for funding to conduct preliminary design studies and analyses. The other two proposals were for missions to a comet and Saturn's moon Titan.

InSight builds on spacecraft technology used in NASA's highly successful Phoenix lander mission, which was launched to the Red Planet in 2007 and determined water existed near the surface in the Martian polar regions. By incorporating proven systems in the mission, the InSight team demonstrated that the mission concept was low-risk and could stay within the cost-constrained budget of Discovery missions. The cost of the mission, excluding the launch vehicle and related services, is capped at $425 million in 2010 dollars.

InSight will carry four instruments. JPL will provide an onboard geodetic instrument to determine the planet's rotation axis and a robotic arm and two cameras used to deploy and monitor instruments on the Martian surface. The French space agency, CNES, is leading an international consortium that is building an instrument to measure seismic waves traveling through the planet's interior. The German Aerospace Center is building a subsurface heat probe to measure the flow of heat from the interior.


###


--
Patrick M. Boland
Communications Director
Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA)
202-225-3278

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kaputnik on 08/20/2012 09:48 pm
Was this seen as the safest choice? I was more excited about TiME tbh.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/20/2012 09:52 pm
Shame they do not have the money to place several widely spaced seismometers for better mapping of Mar's interior. Still, I am excited!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Sparky on 08/20/2012 10:14 pm
Shame they do not have the money to place several widely spaced seismometers for better mapping of Mar's interior. Still, I am excited!
If ExoMars still happens via the Russians, that might be a possibility...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 08/20/2012 11:04 pm
Digging Deep with NASA's Next Mars Lander

Published on Aug 20, 2012 by JPLnews:

Mission team members for InSight, the new Mars lander mission selected by NASA to launch in 2016, explain how the spacecraft will advance our knowledge of Mars' history and rocky planet evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7U5UiFSg5o
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: TheMightyM on 08/21/2012 12:38 am
Was this seen as the safest choice? I was more excited about TiME tbh.

Yup. InSight was judged to be the least likely to go over budget, which is not surprising as it's essentially Phoenix with different instruments.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 08/21/2012 01:12 am
Drilling Specific Information- InSight's HP3

PASADENA, Calif. - On Aug. 20, NASA announced the selection of InSight, a new Discovery-class mission that will probe Mars at new depths by looking into the deep interior of Mars.

"We are certainly excited, but our veterans on this team know the drill," said Tom Hoffman, project manager for InSight from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. "Which is fortunate, because one of the great things we'll get to do on Mars is drill below the surface."

Drilling underneath the red Martian topsoil will be courtesy of InSight's HP3, or Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package - one of the four instruments the Mars lander will carry. Made by the German Aerospace Center, or DLR, HP3 will get below Mars' skin by literally pounding it into submission with a 14-inch (35-centimeter), hollowed-out, electromechanically-festooned stake called the Tractor Mole.

"The Tractor Mole has an internal hammer that rises and falls, moving the stake down in the soil and dragging a tether along behind it," said Sue Smrekar, deputy project scientist for InSight from JPL. "We're essentially doing the same thing any Boy or Girl Scout would do on a campout, but we're putting our stake down on Mars."

The German-built mole will descend up to 16 feet (five meters) below the surface, where its temperature sensors will record how much heat is coming from Mars' interior, which reveals the planet's thermal history.

"Getting well below the surface gets us away from the sun's influence and allows us to measure heat coming from the interior," said Smrekar. "InSight is going take heartbeat and vital signs of the Red Planet for an entire Martian year, two Earth years. We are really going to have an opportunity to understand the processes that control the early planetary formation."

InSight stands for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport. The mission is led by W. Bruce Banerdt of JPL. InSight's science team includes U.S. and international co-investigators from universities, industry and government agencies. Along with DLR, the French space agency Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, or CNES, is also contributing an instrument to the two-year scientific mission.

InSight builds on spacecraft technology used in NASA's highly successful Phoenix lander mission, which was launched to the Red Planet in 2007 and determined that water ice exists near the surface in the Martian polar regions.

Along with providing an onboard geodetic instrument to determine the planet's rotation axis, plus a robotic arm and two cameras used to deploy and monitor instruments on the Martian surface, JPL performs project management for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala., manages the Discovery Program for the agency's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. Lockheed Martin Space Systems in Denver will build the spacecraft. JPL is a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena.

A web video about the Insight mission is online at: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/video/index.cfm?id=1121 . More information about InSight is at: http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov .

As a complement to NASA's larger "flagship" planetary science explorations, the Discovery Program goal is to achieve outstanding results by launching many smaller missions using fewer resources and shorter development times. The main objective is to enhance our understanding of the solar system by exploring the planets, their moons, and small bodies such as comets and asteroids. The program also seeks to improve performance through the use of new technology and broaden university and industry participation in NASA missions.

More information about the Discovery Program is at: http://discovery.nasa.gov .

DC Agle 818-393-9011
Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.
[email protected]

The full version of this story with accompanying images is at:
http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2012-252&cid=release_2012-252

Web Links to German Aerospace Center:

http://www.dlr.de/dlr/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10333/623_read-818/

Specific to Drilling package HP3:

http://www.dlr.de/irs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5960/10970_read-25032/

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: manboy on 08/21/2012 02:22 am
I thought there wasn't enough money for another lander for a 2016/2018 launch?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: TheMightyM on 08/21/2012 02:31 am
I thought there wasn't enough money for another lander for a 2016/2018 launch?

Different pot of money. InSight is a Discovery mission, which is to say that the target is not at all restricted to Mars. Just so happened that a Mars geophysics mission beat out a comet sampling mission and a Titan ocean floater.

You are correct that there apparently isn't enough money in NASA's proposed new Mars program budget for a lander in 2016 or 2018.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/21/2012 03:50 am
Shame they do not have the money to place several widely spaced seismometers for better mapping of Mar's interior. Still, I am excited!

InSight is the latest iteration of a proposed mission from a few years ago called Cerberus, which would have landed three Phoenix-sized spacecraft on the surface of Mars. Too expensive, would not have fit within the New Frontiers cost cap.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: TheFallen on 08/21/2012 05:43 am
Was this seen as the safest choice? I was more excited about TiME tbh.

You ain't the only one.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Skyrocket on 08/21/2012 09:44 am
Does anyone know, which launcher is baselined for this mission?

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 08/21/2012 01:41 pm
Does anyone know, which launcher is baselined for this mission?



The project summary simply says 4-meter ELV.

My personal SWAG - Atlas V 401.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: InvalidAttitude on 08/21/2012 03:23 pm
Any hint about the landing site?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 08/21/2012 06:59 pm
Apparently, InSight won:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/nasa-will-send-robot-drill-to-mars-in-2016/2012/08/20/43bf1980-eaef-11e1-9ddc-340d5efb1e9c_story.html

A good day for those studying the history of the space plasma physics on Mars... we shall soon know much more of the state and history of the interior of Mars and thus its ancient magnetohydrodynamic dynamo. I wrote a paper on that topic for the Space Physics course I took last year.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JohnFornaro on 08/21/2012 08:00 pm
From:

http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/#more

[/quote]The InSight lander will be equipped with two science instruments that will conduct the first "check-up" of Mars in more than 4.5 billion years, measuring its "pulse"...[/quote]

Which is to say that this mission is the uhhh.... second check up mission.  Is there a link for whoever did the uhhh...first checkup?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 08/21/2012 11:23 pm
We've got InSight coverage in three threads:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27717.0

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29739.0

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28268.0

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Drkskywxlt on 08/22/2012 12:06 am
Any hint about the landing site?

They want a flat, equatorial site.  Best candidate right now is Elysium Planitia...not that far (relatively) from MSL's Gale Crater. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 08/22/2012 01:26 am
We've got InSight coverage in three threads:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27717.0

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=29739.0

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28268.0



I've already sent Chris a PM earlier today to work on combining them.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: bolun on 08/24/2012 07:58 pm
http://www.bis.gov.uk/ukspaceagency/news-and-events/2012/Aug/new-mars-mission-to-take-first-look-at-whats-going-on-deep-inside-the-red-planet

Quote
A UK Space Agency-funded instrument, designed to investigate the interior structure and processes of Mars, has been selected to travel to the Red Planet on NASA’s newly announced InSight mission.

Quote
The UK-funded SEIS-SP is a Seismometer that will listen for "marsquakes" and use this information to map the boundaries between the rock layers inside Earth's neighbour. This will help determine if the planet has a liquid or solid core, and provide some clues as to why its surface is not divided up into tectonic plates as on Earth. Detailed knowledge of the interior of Mars in comparison to Earth will help scientists understand better how terrestrial planets form and evolve. The SEIS-SP will be provided by space scientists at Imperial College London and the University of Oxford.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Comga on 08/24/2012 10:33 pm
Rep. Schiff Hails Announcement of New Mission to Mars

Pasadena, CA -- [snip]..Schiff said. “Also, by announcing this new mission soon after the landing of Curiosity, NASA will help to preserve the entry, descent and landing capabilities that were so spectacularly demonstrated by the scientists at JPL, whose talents will be crucial to future planetary exploration.”

Is this correct, enthusiatic loose interpretation, or just more blather?
"Phoenix technology" included neither of the new, advanced EDL technologies of MSL, dynamic flight control during entry and the sky crane landing.  Is InSight going to try to incorporte the steering entry?

It could be hoped that JPL is held to the cost cap, but I doubt it. We could start a poll on our guesses for the final cost, $400-450M, $450-500M, up to >$1G. 

InSight funding is on top of $8.5B that Caltech is getting to run JPL for five years, ~5% of the NASA budget.  (NASA CONTRACT RELEASE: C12-042 8/17/2012)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/25/2012 12:48 pm
1-Is this correct, enthusiatic loose interpretation, or just more blather?

2-It could be hoped that JPL is held to the cost cap, but I doubt it. We could start a poll on our guesses for the final cost, $400-450M, $450-500M, up to >$1G. 

1-It is mostly correct. Note that he's not talking about the technology, he's essentially talking about the team of EDL experts. Most of those people were going to be out of a job. Now many of them will work on InSight. Not all, because InSight is less sophisticated. But this is an important resource to preserve.

2-What is the basis for your skepticism? This is a proven lander design, and the blueprints already exist. The instruments are being provided by European sources. Note that both GRAIL and InSight were selected because of a belief that their cost estimates were sound (and both were based upon existing spacecraft). GRAIL actually came in under budget. Can you cite a single Discovery mission that doubled in price?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: LegendCJS on 08/25/2012 02:04 pm
1-Is this correct, enthusiatic loose interpretation, or just more blather?

2-It could be hoped that JPL is held to the cost cap, but I doubt it. We could start a poll on our guesses for the final cost, $400-450M, $450-500M, up to >$1G. 

1-It is mostly correct. Note that he's not talking about the technology, he's essentially talking about the team of EDL experts. Most of those people were going to be out of a job. Now many of them will work on InSight. Not all, because InSight is less sophisticated. But this is an important resource to preserve.

2-What is the basis for your skepticism? This is a proven lander design, and the blueprints already exist. The instruments are being provided by European sources. Note that both GRAIL and InSight were selected because of a belief that their cost estimates were sound (and both were based upon existing spacecraft). GRAIL actually came in under budget. Can you cite a single Discovery mission that doubled in price?

Comega, lI agree with what Blackstar said.  Insight is like another copy of Phoenix, just with different instruments.  Phoenix was a copy of a previous spacecraft (MPL).  If Phoenix didn't go over budget, what makes you think InSight will? 

Another thing: You seem to carry a large amount of skepticism from some well known recent/ ongoing JPL managed missions that went over budget. 

However, Insight is a great example of re-using the investments of the past.  I have a question for you Comega:  If we are sitting here 20 years form now and there have been many large payloads landed on mars successfully with the skycrane manuver, and a few more MSL sized rovers crawling over the surface, all of which were enabled and made affordable and kept in budget by the investment and budget over-run of the MSL mission, would your opinion of JPL's management change at all?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 08/25/2012 02:41 pm

It could be hoped that JPL is held to the cost cap, but I doubt it. We could start a poll on our guesses for the final cost, $400-450M, $450-500M, up to >$1G. 


LM is building the spacecraft vs JPL
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/25/2012 03:48 pm
LM is building the spacecraft vs JPL

That's a good point. JPL has management oversight, but very little to do with the hardware--spacecraft and instruments are all being built by others, not JPL.

Because JPL has little work right now there is the risk of their projects going over budget to cover their overhead costs. But it will be hard for this to happen with InSight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/26/2012 03:32 am

2-What is the basis for your skepticism? This is a proven lander design, and the blueprints already exist. The instruments are being provided by European sources. Note that both GRAIL and InSight were selected because of a belief that their cost estimates were sound (and both were based upon existing spacecraft). GRAIL actually came in under budget. Can you cite a single Discovery mission that doubled in price?

Where to start ...?  Phoenix redux missions have been proposed under previous Mars Scout ($475M cap in FY2007) and New Frontiers ($650M cap in FY2009) and rejected by HQ due to cost credibility concerns.  Estimates of the original PHX mission range from $420M to $480M but do not include any of the cost associated with the inherited hardware from the '01 Lander nor the value of the engineering effort (design, analyses, documentation, etc) that would have gone along with developing the hardware designs.  Given the overall dollars spent on the '01 effort that covered the orbiter and the lander was in the neighborhood of $220M, one could easily peg that total value in the $110 -$130M range.  As the '01 was done in the FBC era, corners were cut then that, in the current environment, would never be tolerated.  Thus a minimum mission now would be in the $530M - $610M range, not counting for inflation.  The previous concerns on cost credibility were justified.  Yes, the Insight instruments are contributed but that contribution doesn't come anywhere close to shaving off $100M - $175M in cost (not counting the 30% reserves that Insight has to demonstrate).  Further, there is huge risk associated with those contributed instruments.  NASA/JPL have no leverage over the providers to deliver on-time and with the necessary performance.  Since instruments habitually miss schedule targets, the whole program is at risk of delay and missing the planned launch window.  Just like MSL, they will face a two-year delay in launch if they fail to meet the planned schedule resulting in even more additional costs.  Finally, it strikes me as totally insane to reward JPL for delivering MSL two years late and more than $1.6B over cost by giving them yet another Mars lander project, particularly when they have been promised another Mars mission (directed mission) scheduled for launch in the 2018 timeframe.  MSL ate the Mars Scout program and now the Mars science community and JPL are about to eat the Discovery program as well.  But hey, at least we still get pretty rust-colored pictures of a rocky desert.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 08/26/2012 03:43 am
Finally, it strikes me as totally insane to reward JPL for delivering MSL

JPL isn't building Insight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 08/26/2012 03:44 am
Further, there is huge risk associated with those contributed instruments.  NASA/JPL have no leverage over the providers to deliver on-time and with the necessary performance.  Since instruments habitually miss schedule targets,

It is not huge.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/26/2012 04:09 am
Thus a minimum mission now would be in the $530M - $610M range, not counting for inflation.  The previous concerns on cost credibility were justified.

Discovery is cost-capped. If the mission costs as much as you claim it must, then it already exceeds the cost cap. So you're essentially saying that NASA picked a mission that exceeds the cost cap and is lying about it. That just isn't a credible claim.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 08/26/2012 04:57 am
at least we still get pretty rust-colored pictures of a rocky desert.

Unless they redesign the cameras, the pictures will be black and white.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: LegendCJS on 08/26/2012 05:06 am

2-What is the basis for your skepticism? This is a proven lander design, and the blueprints already exist. The instruments are being provided by European sources. Note that both GRAIL and InSight were selected because of a belief that their cost estimates were sound (and both were based upon existing spacecraft). GRAIL actually came in under budget. Can you cite a single Discovery mission that doubled in price?

Where to start ...?  Phoenix redux missions have been proposed under previous Mars Scout ($475M cap in FY2007) and New Frontiers ($650M cap in FY2009) and rejected by HQ due to cost credibility concerns.  Estimates of the original PHX mission range from $420M to $480M but do not include any of the cost associated with the inherited hardware from the '01 Lander nor the value of the engineering effort (design, analyses, documentation, etc) that would have gone along with developing the hardware designs.  Given the overall dollars spent on the '01 effort that covered the orbiter and the lander was in the neighborhood of $220M, one could easily peg that total value in the $110 -$130M range.  As the '01 was done in the FBC era, corners were cut then that, in the current environment, would never be tolerated.  Thus a minimum mission now would be in the $530M - $610M range, not counting for inflation.  The previous concerns on cost credibility were justified.  Yes, the Insight instruments are contributed but that contribution doesn't come anywhere close to shaving off $100M - $175M in cost (not counting the 30% reserves that Insight has to demonstrate).  Further, there is huge risk associated with those contributed instruments.  NASA/JPL have no leverage over the providers to deliver on-time and with the necessary performance.  Since instruments habitually miss schedule targets, the whole program is at risk of delay and missing the planned launch window.  Just like MSL, they will face a two-year delay in launch if they fail to meet the planned schedule resulting in even more additional costs.  Finally, it strikes me as totally insane to reward JPL for delivering MSL two years late and more than $1.6B over cost by giving them yet another Mars lander project, particularly when they have been promised another Mars mission (directed mission) scheduled for launch in the 2018 timeframe.  MSL ate the Mars Scout program and now the Mars science community and JPL are about to eat the Discovery program as well.  But hey, at least we still get pretty rust-colored pictures of a rocky desert.

R&D for the lander is already paid for.  You don't need to be re-counting that cost as part of any new effort to re-use the lander.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/26/2012 02:32 pm

Discovery is cost-capped. If the mission costs as much as you claim it must, then it already exceeds the cost cap. So you're essentially saying that NASA picked a mission that exceeds the cost cap and is lying about it. That just isn't a credible claim.

To be sure, Insight proposed at the cost cap.  That is what NASA has to evaluate against and determine whether there is risk that they will exceed that cost cap and if so, by how much.  History suggests that a mars lander cannot be delivered for less than $500M.  JPL has demonstrated that they cannot control costs associated with Mars landers (MER, MSL).  Thus I am questioning how NASA can justify, based on cost credibility, the selection of another Mars lander, led by JPL, under even tighter cost caps than previous missions. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/26/2012 02:53 pm

R&D for the lander is already paid for.  You don't need to be re-counting that cost as part of any new effort to re-use the lander.

Funny, that is essentially the same claim made when PHX was first selected.  Still blew through its cost cap of $325M (FY2002).  Inflate that to 2011 dollars and you get $449M effective cap (3.5% inflation).  If you take PHXs delivered cost (low estimate of $480M in 2007) and inflate that to 2011 dollars, you would estimate a cost of $551M.

But, back to your statement.  PHX avionics are obsolete so new avionics are required that must be requalified for the Mars surface application as all current LM avionics have been developed for orbiters and/or deep-space probes.  This includes additional software development given the mission environment and mission profile that is different from PHX.  New instruments also require new software.  New avionics and new software require extensive testing and validation beyond what PHX accomplished.  New instruments and new science site requires new thermal control design and analyses which must also go through extensive testing.  About the only thing that might remain unchanged is the primary structure and landing legs, comm system, and heatshield/backshell assuming the items that did change don't ripple through additional or different requirements on these subsystems.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Sparky on 08/26/2012 02:58 pm

 
Quote
History suggests that a mars lander cannot be delivered for less than $500M.  JPL has demonstrated that they cannot control costs associated with Mars landers (MER, MSL).  Thus I am questioning how NASA can justify, based on cost credibility, the selection of another Mars lander, led by JPL, under even tighter cost caps than previous missions. 

Mars Pathfinder?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/26/2012 05:40 pm


Mars Pathfinder?


Pathfinder was authorized in 1993 with a development cost cap of $150M not including the cost of the rover (est. at $25M) or the launch vehicle.  Best data I have found indicate an overall mission cap of $250M (FY1993).  Again, escalate that to 2011 dollars.  At 3.5% escalation (low estimate), that would be $464.4M.  At 4% (nominal estimate), you get $506.5M.  All this for a 275kg package to the surface (for a 10 kg rover) via airbags (thus no landing propulsion system).  PHX was a 350 kg lander but total EDL system mass was closer to 600 kg.  That is a huge difference that has associated cost increases.

Finally, while Pathfinder was a Discovery mission, it was a directed mission to JPL thus a true "proposed cost" is not available as it was never competed.  It was also done under FBC which was designed to tolerate higher risks of failure.  Discovery of today does not have that tolerance and thus additional testing/risk reduction is demanded.

The short answer is that Pathfinder is in the same class of mission cost along with every other Mars lander.  Insight will exceed its $425M cost cap, of that I am confident.  Only question is by how much.  I am predicting now that it launches at a minimum cost of $575M but I wouldn't be surprised to see it top $650M.  Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: as58 on 08/26/2012 10:51 pm
A question to GuessWho: in your opinion, is any of the three Discovery finalists doable within the cost limit? I am completely unqualified to estimate the costs, but to me both CHopper and TiME seem to be even riskier and more difficult missions than InSight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 08/26/2012 11:21 pm
  Insight will exceed its $425M cost cap, of that I am confident.  Only question is by how much.  I am predicting now that it launches at a minimum cost of $575M but I wouldn't be surprised to see it top $650M.  Just my $0.02.

Nah, it is not even worth that.  Just some unsubstantiated mudslinging.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/27/2012 01:08 am
The InSight mission's principal investigator is Bruce Banerdt. Bruce originally proposed a seismic network at Mars with three Phoenix-style landers. InSight is a scaled down version of that with only one lander.

Here is Banerdt's presentation from 2009 on a network mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/27/2012 01:36 am
JPL has demonstrated that they cannot control costs associated with Mars landers (MER, MSL). 

MER, when approved for flight, was originally costed at $688 million. The actual cost to the end of the 90-Sol mission was $800 million, or $112 million, or a totally whopping, unacceptable, er... 16% cost overrun. Now, given the horrible performance of MER at achieving the 90-Sol mission, I can see how this huge 16% cost overrun might be considered a basis for never giving JPL another Mars mission.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/27/2012 03:40 am

MER, when approved for flight, was originally costed at $688 million. The actual cost to the end of the 90-Sol mission was $800 million, or $112 million, or a totally whopping, unacceptable, er... 16% cost overrun. Now, given the horrible performance of MER at achieving the 90-Sol mission, I can see how this huge 16% cost overrun might be considered a basis for never giving JPL another Mars mission.



At selection in August of 2000, the estimated cost was $500M (excluding launch vehicle) according to one set of quotes from Ed Weiler when the mission was announces as a two-rover mission.  Could be that the $688M number you quote is the cost estimated at mission confirmation.  If that is the case, the mission grew by nearly 38% from ATP through confirmation and another 16% through the end of the primary mission.  But that $800M represents a 60% growth over the estimate at ATP, which is where Insight is now.  If you have better sources for costs, please provide.  Finding accurate cost info from 2000 via public sources makes for slim pickings.

Finally, your response says nothing about MSL which most represents the state of JPL and Mars missions as the backdrop to Insight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 08/27/2012 03:44 am

Finally, your response says nothing about MSL which most represents the state of JPL and Mars missions as the backdrop to Insight.

Wrong, you could not be further from the truth.  MSL was an inhouse build, whereas Insight will be contractor provided.  There is no comparison to be made.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 08/27/2012 05:05 am
I was going to ask about this, but a little internet digging turned this up:

Quote from: http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/2012/02/mars-insight-proposal-implementation.html

The second facility instrument would measure basic weather conditions -- temperature, pressure, wind speed -- so that the noise from the local atmospheric conditions can be removed from the seismometer's readings.  The weather readings also will be useful meteorological data in themselves.


Looks like there will be at least a basic meteorological capability as well.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 08/27/2012 12:40 pm
@GuessWho:  Do you intend to answer as58's question?  If not, why not?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: DARPA-86 on 08/27/2012 01:42 pm
Anyone have an idea regarding improved and/or additional batteries to complement the solar array?  Phoenix was landed in a polar region, this appears it could (and probably should) land in a much lower latitude.

It seems to me the real advantage to this mission would be to gather data over a long period of time - I understand the baseline is one Martian year; but if the lander system can survive a Martian winter what prohibits extended life?

This is not a rover, the instruments once fully deployed are sedentary and the data uplink is scheduled for once a week.  This combined with a better thermal environment at a lower latitude should allow for a manageable power consumption ratio - especially as we have established power consumption tables for different times of the Martian year with MER's.

A longer mission collecting usefull data also provides for a greater return on investment should the mission experience a significant cost overrun.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 08/27/2012 05:55 pm
I'm wondering if they would get better data by looking close to a fault, than if done on a plain. The design, if I'm not mistaken, can't really land close to anything due to the CEP and the landing stability. In that sens, it would be more what it can be done for that price, rather than what you would optimally chose, right?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Sparky on 12/26/2012 03:49 am
I was going to ask about this, but a little internet digging turned this up:

Quote from: http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/2012/02/mars-insight-proposal-implementation.html

The second facility instrument would measure basic weather conditions -- temperature, pressure, wind speed -- so that the noise from the local atmospheric conditions can be removed from the seismometer's readings.  The weather readings also will be useful meteorological data in themselves.


Looks like there will be at least a basic meteorological capability as well.

I've heard nothing about this in recent summaries of the mission. Has the meteorological element been dropped from the mission?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Comga on 12/26/2012 04:14 am
(snip)
A longer mission collecting usefull data also provides for a greater return on investment should the mission experience a significant cost overrun.

A tautology and a non-sequiteur.
Longer missions provide greater returns, albeit sometimes marginally greater.
Significant costs overruns are just bad, regardless of how one tries to justify them.  That there should be overruns on such a directly derivative mission will be something over which hands are wrung.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/26/2012 09:42 pm
Well, yeah. Also, the edict should be "Thou shalt not overrun your cost cap." The last Discovery mission was GRAIL, and it stayed within its cost cap. Although lots of people suspect that InSight got picked because NASA was biased in favor of Mars missions, my suspicion is that this was the mission that was most likely to stay on budget. They played it safe in terms of cost risk.

One thing I'm sorta guessing on--the initial power requirements for the mission will probably go down after time. They've got one or two experiments that should happen early in the mission and then be over. After that, they'll just be running the seismometer. So I imagine that they can operate on much less power after the first few months. Then lifetime is primarily determined by the decay of their solar panels and their batteries.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/27/2012 05:28 pm
Well, yeah. Also, the edict should be "Thou shalt not overrun your cost cap." The last Discovery mission was GRAIL, and it stayed within its cost cap. Although lots of people suspect that InSight got picked because NASA was biased in favor of Mars missions, my suspicion is that this was the mission that was most likely to stay on budget. They played it safe in terms of cost risk.

One thing I'm sorta guessing on--the initial power requirements for the mission will probably go down after time. They've got one or two experiments that should happen early in the mission and then be over. After that, they'll just be running the seismometer. So I imagine that they can operate on much less power after the first few months. Then lifetime is primarily determined by the decay of their solar panels and their batteries.

Is that what the whole mission is going to boil down to after a couple of months then running a single seismometer on Mars?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/29/2012 01:09 am
I was going to ask about this, but a little internet digging turned this up:

Quote from: http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/2012/02/mars-insight-proposal-implementation.html

The second facility instrument would measure basic weather conditions -- temperature, pressure, wind speed -- so that the noise from the local atmospheric conditions can be removed from the seismometer's readings.  The weather readings also will be useful meteorological data in themselves.


Looks like there will be at least a basic meteorological capability as well.

I've heard nothing about this in recent summaries of the mission. Has the meteorological element been dropped from the mission?

I haven't seen any "official" news on this. The author (Van Kane) of the blog post I quoted above claims to have been told about it by Dr. Banerdt himself.

I think they need wind data to make sure the seismometer isn't picking up wind noise.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 12/29/2012 02:26 pm
With only one geophone, there will remain a lot of unanswered questions.  Like triangulating where any of the signals originate from.  Yes the heat probe will be interesting, but geothermal gradient varies all over a planet too.  Probably less on Mars...   I still wonder about this.  If was able to stay alive for a couple decades, then Red Dragon(s) or other missions could work with insight (sic) to obtain far superior data.  I don't understand what this mission is really able to say about Mars without triangulation.  Unless they know the exact location and time of a bollide impact, but the odds of that given the orbital assets are very slim (time, not location).  Are they just looking to see whether shear waves can pass through the core?   

I'm a fan of Mars exploration, to an extent beyond most.  I just don't see the utility of insight compared to three of them in terms of cost/benefit.  3 is far superior. 

Thanks in advance for educating me on what I'm missing. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/29/2012 03:24 pm
They cannot afford three of them. More than one and it is in the New Frontiers class. If you look at the list of potential New Frontiers missions, there is no Mars seismic network listed (that's not an oversight--it was debated and rejected). Note that a lunar geophysical network did make it onto the New Frontiers list.

I don't specifically know what they expect to get from this mission, but it did pass the science review, meaning that a group of scientists evaluated it and determined that it would return some worthwhile science. And seismic sensors have gotten very sophisticated, so even one of them can return a fair amount of data.

I also think that in some ways this mission will have a hanging question mark on it--if it demonstrates that Mars has active seismology, it could prompt people to call for a more comprehensive mission in the future, with multiple sites.

Finally, from what little I understand about this, seismic studies has sort of been the bastard child in planetary science for awhile now. A lot of scientists will admit that it has value, but it's always low on the list, but always ON the list. It's about time to do something related to it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 12/29/2012 06:03 pm
Thanks again Blackstar.  As always, the context you provide is useful.

They cannot afford three of them... if it demonstrates that Mars has active seismology, it could prompt people to call for a more comprehensive mission in the future, with multiple sites.
I suspect you found the strategic reason.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/29/2012 07:18 pm
They cannot afford three of them... if it demonstrates that Mars has active seismology, it could prompt people to call for a more comprehensive mission in the future, with multiple sites.
I suspect you found the strategic reason.

Well, there doesn't need to be a strategic reason for a Discovery class mission.

I think I previously mentioned the Cerberus mission here. That was Banerdt's attempt to propose a 3-lander seismic network for New Frontiers.

In 2007 NASA asked the NRC to perform a study looking at adding some new missions to the New Frontiers list. That study is attached below. Two missions that were added to the existing New Frontiers list were an asteroid sample return mission and a Mars seismic network. During the last NF competition, both of those could be proposed. Indeed, an asteroid sample return mission was proposed and was ultimately selected. That's OSIRIS-REx. Banerdt tried to get JPL to accept and propose a Mars seismic network using three Phoenix-class landers. His proposal was called Cerberus. JPL rejected that proposal and so it was never submitted to the New Frontiers competition. My guess is that it was rejected because of cost, because there's no way to fit three Mars landers into a single mission within the New Frontiers cost cap.

I don't really know Banerdt, although he did present to this study, and he later talked about Cerberus ca 2009. I give him credit because it's rather rare for scientists to openly discuss their rejected proposals, so I thought that Banerdt's willingness to do so was a mark of character and it's good to see that rewarded with InSight.

The attached study probably discusses seismic science at Mars and might help answer some of your questions.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/29/2012 07:21 pm
I'll just add one more thing that you can sorta glean from what I wrote earlier: most missions that get selected were previously rejected in earlier competitions. OSIRIS-REx lost a Discovery competition, but later won as New Frontiers. Cerberus didn't even get that far, getting rejected by JPL as a New Frontiers candidate, but later winning in Discovery. Juno, on its way to Jupiter, is a collection of (I think) three previous losing Discovery bids.

So just because a mission loses does not mean that it will never make it. Sometimes losing is an important step to making the proposal better for the next round.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GraniteHound92 on 02/18/2013 02:49 am
Quote
Finally, from what little I understand about this, seismic studies has sort of been the bastard child in planetary science for awhile now. A lot of scientists will admit that it has value, but it's always low on the list, but always ON the list. It's about time to do something related to it.

I completely agree that it is time that we get a seismometer on Mars.  Geodesy and gravity mapping are great tools, but only seismology can reveal the make-up and dynamics of a planet's interior.  Even a single seismometer can give us preliminary data on marsquake frequency, and it can begin to build a catalog of events that we can use for statistical analysis.  Yes, more instruments would be better (always, for every science), but if one is all that NASA can afford, it'll be enough to get data and maybe pique some interest in further seismological studies of Mars.

I'm having a hard time finding any recent InSight updates.  Any news on a launch vehicle?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 02/18/2013 04:01 pm

I'm having a hard time finding any recent InSight updates.  Any news on a launch vehicle?

Hasn't been selected yet.  There would be an announcement for it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 02/18/2013 06:22 pm
You mean it may not actually fly on an Atlas?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: R7 on 02/18/2013 07:11 pm
Question: will the seismometer experiment benefit from stuff impacting the planet surface by future missions (back shells, heat shields etc.) ? Possibly specialized impactors? I'm assuming that these things give better readout when explosions of known yield are set off on known locations elsewhere.

Question2: If landed on Elysium Planitia would the HP3 know if it hammers itself into water ice? Rumor has it E.P. has plenty of that covered by ash. Would be nice to know for sure, equatorial site + water = let's settle! ;)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GraniteHound92 on 02/20/2013 05:01 pm
Quote
Question: will the seismometer experiment benefit from stuff impacting the planet surface by future missions (back shells, heat shields etc.) ? Possibly specialized impactors? I'm assuming that these things give better readout when explosions of known yield are set off on known locations elsewhere.

It would absolutely be beneficial to have impacts of known size and location while the seismometer experiment is running.  InSight's planned mission duration is two Earth years.  In theory it could be operational for both the 2016 and 2018 ExoMars landers.  Heat shields and other spacecraft detritus would make excellent seismic signatures.

Quote
Question2: If landed on Elysium Planitia would the HP3 know if it hammers itself into water ice? Rumor has it E.P. has plenty of that covered by ash. Would be nice to know for sure, equatorial site + water = let's settle!

Good question.  HP3 will have temperature sensors at 30 cm intervals for the entire length of the 5 m probe.  Some rough estimates of lithology, mineralogy, etc. might be derived from heat flow data.  It's possible that measuring the heat flow alone could reveal if there is a layer of subsurface ice or not.  On Earth, characterizing the lithology would be done through resistivity logging.  Unfortunately, that requires an electrically conductive fluid to be pumped down into the bore hole.

Alternatively, if the seismometer is operational while the drill is burrowing into the ground, it might be possible to infer lithology by analysis of the seismic waves produced by the drill.

I'm going to look into this more.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 02/21/2013 12:46 am
You mean it may not actually fly on an Atlas?

Smart money is on Atlas V 401, but this could be Falcon 9's first shot at mars.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/11/2013 08:17 pm
Here is Bruce Banerdt's presentation on InSight from Thursday. Lots of explanation in here about how it will work, current testing, etc.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/11/2013 08:21 pm
Here are the individual slides.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/11/2013 08:23 pm
Here are some more.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 03/11/2013 09:03 pm
Very interesting presentation.Besides the fact that it would seem to show an excellent science return, it made me think a bit on the general direction of planetary.
It would seem, at least from this presentation, that reiterative missions to a complex object, like Mars, gives increasingly more science. I understand that this is not quite so. But I'm thinking more on the fact that Mars is getting the lion's share of planetary science.
I'm wondering, if the fact that having multiple missions means not only demonstrated EDL techniques, but also allows for very well bounded science return. Reading the improvements in measures that htey hope to achieve, I get the impression that they have a very good chance of actually getting what they expect. In other words, the more you study an object, the better you can predict the science return. Could it be that the combination of low technical risk (on relative terms, of course) and pretty well defined science pay off gives Mars a huge advantage when competing missions?
I mean, specially on times of small budgets, having proven EDL techniques and good knowledge of the planet's composition make the cost and technical risk so well bounded that it's very hard for other missions to compete?
On this particular mission, I found the questions they wanted to answer surprisingly specific. Like "how many digits of precision will we earn on the mantle's diameter?", "what's the temperature gradient on the crust?", "how many degrees we'll be able to bound a seismic movement?".
Compare that to whatever question you want to make about the Jovian moons, the Neptune's atmosphere or Venus interior?
If I looked at this like an investor (science investor, not money), I think this is the closest you can get to a risk free bond, am I right?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/12/2013 12:20 am
Very interesting presentation.Besides the fact that it would seem to show an excellent science return, it made me think a bit on the general direction of planetary.


I know nothing about seismic science. Of the three Discovery missions that were competing, I assumed that InSight had the lowest level of science return, although all three missions were rated "excellent" for science return. A noted planetary scientist, however, thought that all three missions were truly excellent and bold choices, so I defer to his judgement.

I think that one of the things in InSight's favor is that other than some low-res seismic sensors on the Moon, we have ZERO seismic data on terrestrial bodies other than Earth. In other words, any data at all will be a major improvement over what we have.

More in another post.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/12/2013 12:24 am
It would seem, at least from this presentation, that reiterative missions to a complex object, like Mars, gives increasingly more science. I understand that this is not quite so. But I'm thinking more on the fact that Mars is getting the lion's share of planetary science.
I'm wondering, if the fact that having multiple missions means not only demonstrated EDL techniques, but also allows for very well bounded science return. Reading the improvements in measures that htey hope to achieve, I get the impression that they have a very good chance of actually getting what they expect. In other words, the more you study an object, the better you can predict the science return. Could it be that the combination of low technical risk (on relative terms, of course) and pretty well defined science pay off gives Mars a huge advantage when competing missions?
I mean, specially on times of small budgets, having proven EDL techniques and good knowledge of the planet's composition make the cost and technical risk so well bounded that it's very hard for other missions to compete?
On this particular mission, I found the questions they wanted to answer surprisingly specific. Like "how many digits of precision will we earn on the mantle's diameter?", "what's the temperature gradient on the crust?", "how many degrees we'll be able to bound a seismic movement?".
Compare that to whatever question you want to make about the Jovian moons, the Neptune's atmosphere or Venus interior?
If I looked at this like an investor (science investor, not money), I think this is the closest you can get to a risk free bond, am I right?

I think I sort of understand what you are getting at. But I'm not sure that I agree with it. In both astronomy and in planetary science the highest return on your dollar comes from going to an entirely new target. For astronomy, the biggest discoveries have come from telescopes that have explored entirely new wavelengths (there's even a term for this, named after the guy who came up with the idea, but I forget his name).

In planetary, the biggest return on investment comes from going to an entirely new planet. In terms of discoveries, Cassini surpasses everything flown in over a decade. We had very little data on the Saturnian system, and now we have loads of data, and many discoveries of things that nobody expected, or had little data about.

Considering that, the biggest return on the dollar now would come from an ice giants mission to Uranus or Neptune. A mission to one of those planets would provide lots of new discoveries. There are things going on there that we do not even know about.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/04/2013 02:14 pm
  Insight will exceed its $425M cost cap, of that I am confident.  Only question is by how much.  I am predicting now that it launches at a minimum cost of $575M but I wouldn't be surprised to see it top $650M.  Just my $0.02.

Nah, it is not even worth that.  Just some unsubstantiated mudslinging.

Rumor is that Insight costs have grown by about 21% going into their confirmation review which would put it at ~$514M.  Will be interesting to see what the final number is when NASA announces they are go for Phase C/D.  Aerospace Corp did a study in April of this year for NASA that found, on average, NASA science missions experienced an overall 56% growth in costs over their estimates at the start of Phase B.  From PDR to delivery, the average cost growth was 37%.  Insight looks to be tracking this pattern very closely.  If they continue to do so, they are headed for a final cost of $660M+.  If you have better data, please provide.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 08/05/2013 05:53 pm
  Insight will exceed its $425M cost cap, of that I am confident.  Only question is by how much.  I am predicting now that it launches at a minimum cost of $575M but I wouldn't be surprised to see it top $650M.  Just my $0.02.

Nah, it is not even worth that.  Just some unsubstantiated mudslinging.

Rumor is that Insight costs have grown by about 21% going into their confirmation review which would put it at ~$514M.  Will be interesting to see what the final number is when NASA announces they are go for Phase C/D.  Aerospace Corp did a study in April of this year for NASA that found, on average, NASA science missions experienced an overall 56% growth in costs over their estimates at the start of Phase B.  From PDR to delivery, the average cost growth was 37%.  Insight looks to be tracking this pattern very closely.  If they continue to do so, they are headed for a final cost of $660M+.  If you have better data, please provide.

If it exceeds its budget by that amount could it be cancelled as I thought these class of missions were tightly budgetarly controlled?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 08/05/2013 07:40 pm
Latest InSight update is here:

http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/jul-13/files/Banerdt%202013-0732%20MEPAG.pdf
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 08/05/2013 09:53 pm
Latest InSight update is here:

http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/jul-13/files/Banerdt%202013-0732%20MEPAG.pdf


Thanks, good info in there.

Looking at the SEIS image on page 5 I wonder about that thin flat tether catching the wind. It looks like they've got some kind of isolation system there... I'm sure they've got a plan.

Tight mass margins.

No color photos. I can already see the snarky headlines on Buzzfeed, HuffPo, etc.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 08/06/2013 08:09 am
You mean it may not actually fly on an Atlas?

Smart money is on Atlas V 401, but this could be Falcon 9's first shot at mars.

Especially if as reported above it is going over budget.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 08/06/2013 08:36 am
You mean it may not actually fly on an Atlas?

Smart money is on Atlas V 401, but this could be Falcon 9's first shot at mars.

Especially if as reported above it is going over budget.

I'd have to look at the specifics again but I don't think it helps. The basic launch vehicle isn't in the PI's budget. The PI's budget has to cover the premium for non standard or bigger launch vehicles, but InSight is already in the lowest category.

If they really are in so much trouble on the budget, they're in a bad place. The flip side of having a less ambitious mission is you don't really have anyway to reduce scope to stay in budget.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/06/2013 03:26 pm
Considering Phoenix flew on a Delta II, sounds like it could fly on one of a number of different vehicles.

Delta II (ULA is offering it again)
Atlas V
Falcon 9 v1.1
or even
Antares

It should be very interesting to see how the tea leaves land on this one.

Edit: Scratch Delta II, hasn't Launch Complex 17 been shut down.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 08/06/2013 03:48 pm
Considering Phoenix flew on a Delta II, sounds like it could fly on one of a number of different vehicles.

Delta II (ULA is offering it again)
Atlas V
Falcon 9 v1.1
or even
Antares

It should be very interesting to see how the tea leaves land on this one.

Edit: Scratch Delta II, hasn't Launch Complex 17 been shut down.

It could launch from VAFB.
Antares is doubtful because of facilities at WFF.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/06/2013 04:26 pm
Is there a performance hit due to VAFB range limits? I realize it was done with Clementine, but VAFB is not the first place one thinks of for BEO. Thanks for the correction.

Do you mean Antares is doubtful because WFF lacks the facilities to process InSight? Or for that matter, any other large spacecraft...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 08/06/2013 06:19 pm
Considering Phoenix flew on a Delta II, sounds like it could fly on one of a number of different vehicles.

Delta II (ULA is offering it again)
Atlas V
Falcon 9 v1.1
or even
Antares

It should be very interesting to see how the tea leaves land on this one.

Edit: Scratch Delta II, hasn't Launch Complex 17 been shut down.
The Phoenix preskit says that they had a 670kg of launch mass. I can't recall exactly, but I'm assuming that 2016 will be an excellent window. So let's assume a C3 of 13km²/s². Antares still hasn't a Guide, but their brochure has a graph of high energy performance. The only configuration that does more than C3 is the 122 (Antares Core + Castor 30B + Star 48V). The graph is not very precise, but I've measured that for a C3 of 10km²/s² they get 570kg, may be 600kg. So I have some doubts that Antares even has the necessary performance for this mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Skyrocket on 08/06/2013 07:02 pm
Considering Phoenix flew on a Delta II, sounds like it could fly on one of a number of different vehicles.

Delta II (ULA is offering it again)
Atlas V
Falcon 9 v1.1
or even
Antares

It should be very interesting to see how the tea leaves land on this one.

Edit: Scratch Delta II, hasn't Launch Complex 17 been shut down.
The Phoenix preskit says that they had a 670kg of launch mass. I can't recall exactly, but I'm assuming that 2016 will be an excellent window. So let's assume a C3 of 13km²/s². Antares still hasn't a Guide, but their brochure has a graph of high energy performance. The only configuration that does more than C3 is the 122 (Antares Core + Castor 30B + Star 48V). The graph is not very precise, but I've measured that for a C3 of 10km²/s² they get 570kg, may be 600kg. So I have some doubts that Antares even has the necessary performance for this mission.

The Antares-132 should be able to do it. IIRC, the performance for C3 of 10km²/s² should be around 1000 kg.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 08/06/2013 08:02 pm
The Antares-132 should be able to do it. IIRC, the performance for C3 of 10km²/s² should be around 1000 kg.
Why didn't OSC put it's performance above -10km²/s²? Could it be that 132 is LEO optimized? I'm simply baffled at the lack of information. The NLS site still says "Antares (web site data in work)".
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spectre9 on 08/07/2013 05:48 am
WFF horizontal only?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 08/07/2013 07:10 am
WFF horizontal only?

SLC-40 would be horizontal mate to LV as well. I think the issue is more about payload processing facilities?

My interpretation of the literature from Orbital strongly suggests that Antares can't fly this mission anyways.

The Antares-132 should be able to do it. IIRC, the performance for C3 of 10km²/s² should be around 1000 kg.
Why didn't OSC put it's performance above -10km²/s²? Could it be that 132 is LEO optimized? I'm simply baffled at the lack of information. The NLS site still says "Antares (web site data in work)".

Looks like too many Gs during second stage flight for payloads less than about 1300kg on A132.

A122 does more Gs but only during 3rd stage burn.

I don't know what the limiting factor is and whether it's surmountable as a matter of paperwork or whether there would have to be mods.

And to come back to topic, I doubt OSC is going to bend over backward to win this launch.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/07/2013 02:59 pm
Not to make an airplane analogy, but SpaceX and Orbital could act as boeing's 747-8 to Airbus's a380. Aka ULA ;)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 08/08/2013 05:38 pm
Not to go way OT but is there any documentation showing the process NASA uses to pick a launcher for a craft?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 08/10/2013 12:08 pm

I would not say "reported." I would say "rumored." By somebody who hasn't yet demonstrated reliability on this subject.

I don't claim to have a crystal ball that can see the future as you seem to imply.  My opinion on Insight is however based on past performance relative to actual budget vs advertised budget at mission selection.  I have yet to see you, or anyone, provide a fact-based refute of those numbers.  Until you can do that, I will stand by my opinion on where Insight will ultimately end up on cost.  Finally, as near as I can tell, you are a JPL employee (and if I am wrong, my apologies).  Given that most (if not all) of the Mars lander/rover mission overruns were on JPL-managed efforts, I find your comment to be entertaining at best.  If you are a JPL employee, your objectivity on this topic is highly questionable.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/10/2013 01:02 pm
(Post about Blackstar edited out, as only the person themselves should reveal who is behind a username. Bottom line, only Blackstar can make that post. - Chris).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 08/10/2013 03:49 pm
Apologies to Blackstar and Chris
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/18/2013 09:19 pm
Has the Atlas V's further success with MAVEN increased its chances to get the gig to launch InSight?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 11/18/2013 09:30 pm
Has the Atlas V's further success with MAVEN increased its chances to get the gig to launch InSight?

Not really.  No more than before.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/18/2013 09:38 pm

Has the Atlas V's further success with MAVEN increased its chances to get the gig to launch InSight?

Not really.  No more than before.

The choice on this must be made fairly soon I would have thought with a launch of March 2016?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: wkann on 12/19/2013 08:45 pm
"InSight will launch in March 2016 aboard an Atlas V 401 rocket from Space Launch Complex 3E at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nasa-awards-launch-services-contract-for-insight-mission-236613791.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/19/2013 09:58 pm

"InSight will launch in March 2016 aboard an Atlas V 401 rocket

No surprise there.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Danderman on 12/19/2013 10:38 pm

"InSight will launch in March 2016 aboard an Atlas V 401 rocket

No surprise there.

I haven't been paying much attention to this mission, so I am surprised about launch from Vandenberg.

Is this due to excess capacity of the launcher (compared with the standard Delta II)?

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/20/2013 05:32 am
I remember that pre-MCO and pre-MPL, Mars Odyssey was supposed to launch from Vandenberg on a Delta II. it had something to do with the declination of the launch asymptote (DLA) which required a relatively high-inclination parking orbit (45-50 degrees) and Vandenberg was better suited. I wonder if it is the case for Insight also
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/20/2013 07:54 am
I didn't think of it at first... the relative geometries of the orbits of Mars and Earth tend to repeat every 15-16 years (see for example the periodicity of "great oppositions" http://cseligman.com/text/planets/marsoppositions.htm)
so the launch window of 2016 is really like the one of Mars Odyssey
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/20/2013 10:37 am
"InSight will launch in March 2016 aboard an Atlas V 401 rocket from Space Launch Complex 3E at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nasa-awards-launch-services-contract-for-insight-mission-236613791.html


Thanks for the link. I suppose one of these days someone other than ULA might be awarded one of these types of launches.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/20/2013 12:42 pm
"InSight will launch in March 2016 aboard an Atlas V 401 rocket from Space Launch Complex 3E at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nasa-awards-launch-services-contract-for-insight-mission-236613791.html


Thanks for the link. I suppose one of these days someone other than ULA might be awarded one of these types of launches.

I don't understand why every discussion on this board inevitably turns to rockets.

But SMD would love to have cheaper options than what they have. The $160 million they are paying for this launch is about twice what they were paying a decade ago for a Delta II, and they don't need anything as big as an Atlas for almost all of their heliophysics launches, many of their Earth sciences launches, and a lot of their planetary launches.

The problem is that none of those other boosters have yet demonstrated the reliable performance that is required under the launch services contract to be considered for these missions. When they do, they will be considered.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/20/2013 12:54 pm
there was a proposal to launch an asteroid impactor as a secondary payload to take advantage of the excessive (for Insight) performance of the Atlas V. I imagine that NASA cannot pay for it.
too bad...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/20/2013 02:50 pm
there was a proposal to launch an asteroid impactor as a secondary payload to take advantage of the excessive (for Insight) performance of the Atlas V. I imagine that NASA cannot pay for it.
too bad...

Yeah, I've got that presentation around here somewhere. The plan was for the impactor to hit the asteroid that will be visited by OSIRIS-REx. I think that cost was one issue, but the schedule was also really compressed.

I suspect that this is also a case where SMD would like HEOMD to pay for the impactor on the basis that HEOMD is going to do an asteroid mission, so it would like extra asteroid data. But my impression is that HEOMD is a) strapped for cash, and b) not that interested in paying for robotic spacecraft. But I'm just speculating on all of that.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 12/20/2013 03:46 pm
Here is a link to the July 2013 SBAG ISIS presentation.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/sbag/meetings/jul2013/presentations/THU_0915_Chesley_ISIS.pdf (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/sbag/meetings/jul2013/presentations/THU_0915_Chesley_ISIS.pdf)

I assume (That word again) it is the current version of this?


Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 12/20/2013 03:58 pm
Yeah, I've got that presentation around here somewhere. The plan was for the impactor to hit the asteroid that will be visited by OSIRIS-REx. I think that cost was one issue, but the schedule was also really compressed.

I suspect that this is also a case where SMD would like HEOMD to pay for the impactor on the basis that HEOMD is going to do an asteroid mission, so it would like extra asteroid data. But my impression is that HEOMD is a) strapped for cash, and b) not that interested in paying for robotic spacecraft. But I'm just speculating on all of that.

I was reading the latest presentations to the NAC (linked in another thread) and one of the things HEOMD wants to do is Precursor missions, but only if they don't have to pay for them.  IIRC, the relevant bullets say that NASA is looking for commercial or international partners and will provide expertise, etc, but no cash.

I read that to mean that they won't happen anytime soon.

EDIT:  Found it.  Pg 25 of this presentation (It's mentioned several other places, as well)

http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20121210_HEONAC_Crusan.pdf (http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/files/20121210_HEONAC_Crusan.pdf)

Infer what you will.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/20/2013 08:25 pm
someone has put up "porkchop" plots for the 2016 launch window on unmannedspaceflight.com
http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=7200&view=findpost&p=205749
the DLA is indeed quite high (some 45 degrees), translating in a high inclination parking orbit, for which a Vandenberg launch would be suitable (but not necessarily preferable)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/20/2013 08:30 pm
you can get an idea of the high inclination of Mars Odyssey's parking orbit here
http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/odyssey/010405orbittrace.html
it went as high as the UK...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/24/2013 01:04 pm
This is Lockheed Martin artwork of the proposed Mars One lander, which would be closely based upon the Phoenix and InSight landers. This is not a science mission (and I do not expect it to happen), but I include it here to show that there are ideas for other landers.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 12/30/2013 12:12 pm
May I ask the purpose of what looks like a roll out solar panel is? Does it double as a ramp, or is it just a test of a new solar format?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/30/2013 12:19 pm
May I ask the purpose of what looks like a roll out solar panel is? Does it double as a ramp, or is it just a test of a new solar format?

Test of new solar technology.

I don't want to turn this into a Mars One discussion, but this lander does look like a logical choice considering their goals--test technology required prior to human operations. I don't know if the specific technologies make sense, but there is logic to trying out the stuff that you are going to need a few years later.

None of this is going to happen, however.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/30/2013 08:01 pm
the French space agency CNES has just published this cool video (mostly in French) on their seismometer for InSight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3IOKszmnyo
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 12/30/2013 10:29 pm
The roll-out solar panel makes a lot of sense. You can pack a LOT of power production in a small space and mass. And it's fairly scalable, too. Most of the mass of a solar panel when you scale up ends up being stuff like structure. The cells themselves can have much better specific power, well over 500W/kg (near Earth), perhaps as much as 600-800W/kg.

To get an estimate of specific power on Mars (assuming they are brushed off fairly regularly), Take maybe a 30% amount (since they are flat and don't track the Sun), a 50% reduction due to further distance, and a 75% amount due to average amount of dust in the atmosphere (don't know what the real number is, this is a guesstimate).

.3*.5*.75*600W/kg = 67.5W/kg. So one ton of rolled-up solar array could produce an average power of 67.5kW (peak power of around 300kW). 15 tons (say, delivered 1mT at a time, one roll at a time, for 15 rolls) would produce a megawatt of /average/ power, with a peak production of perhaps 3-4 Megawatts. At reasonable efficiencies, you can electrolyze water into oxygen (or perhaps carbon dioxide into oxygen) at about 1kg per 30 seconds at that average power level.
...So one roll (1mT) could electrolyze enough oxygen for nearly 200 people, steady state (assuming a people consume roughly 1kg of oxygen per day). But, of course, people have lots of other power needs, and efficiencies at small scale are small, so you'd probably want a good 5kW per person of average power.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 12/31/2013 11:49 am
Blackstar thanks,

Now if we could convince NASA to develop a rover with an air compressor to dust off the lander's panels...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 12/31/2013 01:43 pm
Did Insight settle on whether to include a magnetotelluric survey? 

Are there estimates of the longevity at the intended landing site?  (I'm curious because if long enough, future sensors might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

Could the roll-out solar array test be inexpensively tacked on to Insight instead?
 I wonder if these could be unfurled like sails (gas-balloon rim?) or dragged like tails instead.  Even a long legged rover design with these as "ankle length skirts" of retractable segments.  Or unfurling on satellites in gaps between limbs on expandable geodesic shapes. 

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/31/2013 05:23 pm
Did Insight settle on whether to include a magnetotelluric survey? 

Are there estimates of the longevity at the intended landing site?  (I'm curious because if long enough, future sensors might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mdatb on 12/31/2013 09:43 pm
I hope insight is successful. I am confident that mars is not completely dead inside, and insight will help prove that right or wrong.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 12:58 am
Now if we could convince NASA to develop a rover with an air compressor to dust off the lander's panels...

But that was not necessary. The MERs did quite fine without any system for dusting off their solar panels.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 01:01 am
might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.

It's worth noting that a seismic network on Mars was included in the 2007 NOSSE report as a possible New Frontiers mission, but it was later rejected by the decadal survey. So, except for further Discovery class missions, there is no established scientific requirement for a Mars seismic network. The decadal did prioritize a Lunar Geophysical Network for the New Frontiers 5 competition, so it is possible we will get a seismic network on the Moon someday.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 01:02 am
Could the roll-out solar array test be inexpensively tacked on to Insight instead?

The InSight design has been finalized, so this solar array will not be carried on that mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/02/2014 02:46 am
I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.
The seismic instrument is French.  At one point, the Russians had it listed as instrument for the stationary lander portion of the 2018 ExoMars mission.  I'm not sure of the current status.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 03:52 am
I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.
The seismic instrument is French.  At one point, the Russians had it listed as instrument for the stationary lander portion of the 2018 ExoMars mission.  I'm not sure of the current status.


My point was that the United States could offer to continue and expand seismic research on Mars by offering up an instrument for a mission after InSight. Of course, CNES could do the same thing.

Seismic studies aren't exactly sexy. But they are rather fundamental, so it's good that this is finally happening. I remember talking to Tom Young, who was the program manager for Viking, and he mentioned how they had a sensor on Viking but learned the important lesson that you cannot keep it on the spacecraft; it has to be on the ground.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/02/2014 04:07 am
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 01/02/2014 04:53 am
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)
Speculative, but if FH cores get cheaply reusable, Red Dragon as a platform might fit that context.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 01/02/2014 05:02 am
might work with Insight to triangulate locations for seismic noise -rather than simply noting that predictably - yes, there is seismic noise - for superior interpretation and better science value).  Like the original Cerberus proposal Blackstar mentioned.

I think InSight is all we're going to get for a long time. Now depending upon its lifetime, there might be a benefit to trying to cooperate with another country planning a Mars lander. In other words, offer an American seismic instrument for another country's lander, thereby establishing a rudimentary seismic network.

It's worth noting that a seismic network on Mars was included in the 2007 NOSSE report as a possible New Frontiers mission, but it was later rejected by the decadal survey. So, except for further Discovery class missions, there is no established scientific requirement for a Mars seismic network. The decadal did prioritize a Lunar Geophysical Network for the New Frontiers 5 competition, so it is possible we will get a seismic network on the Moon someday.
Thanks for the replies and info. 
Looks to me from the pdf, that it's worth doing (page 3 has some pretty good claims with no back-up assumptions) but that ~2x the budget (for 3 identical landers) might have quintupled+ the science return. 

I'm glad to hear there's interest in a lunar seismic network at least!  Hopefully once somebody does it somewhere, results will be impressive enough that geophones become standard issue for landers.
Geophones can be light, cheap, tough, and ~passive (needs a little solar power).  These might go with abandoned (scattered) EDL bits rather than the actual lander.  Might not even need solar if magnetotelluric sensor/harness is included.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 01:43 pm
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)
Speculative, but if FH cores get cheaply reusable, Red Dragon as a platform might fit that context.

And once again, SpaceX becomes the solution to all problems, including tooth decay...

One can speculate all you want. But in this context we're talking about a lander design that currently exists, and has been proven. Bird in the hand vs. two in the bush.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 01:45 pm
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)

I assumed the context was that other countries may land on Mars, and if they do so, they are going to want to design their own landers (because that is the point). It is easier to offer up an instrument for somebody else's lander than it is to try and convince them to pay you for your own lander.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 01/02/2014 02:11 pm
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)

I assumed the context was that other countries may land on Mars, and if they do so, they are going to want to design their own landers (because that is the point). It is easier to offer up an instrument for somebody else's lander than it is to try and convince them to pay you for your own lander.
Besides, NASA is more trustable as an instrument supplier partner than a LV/lander module partner.
I would like to point out that, in this budget reatricted times, NASA appears to be replicating the SAC-D/Aquarius model with ISRO for a radar mission. And in the end, they did kept their promised instruments for ExoMars.
The problem with Mars, is that the are three or four proven EDLs for Mars, and all of them are JPL's. So it's very difficult for NASA to partner just on instruments since just now ESA and Roscosmos are developing the necessary technologies.
Now, given that both ISRO and Roscosmos are planning on landing on the moon, I believe that a Lunar Seismic Network could be done by supplying a couple of instruments and sanding one or two landers.
BTW, China would be the ideal partner there, regrettably.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/02/2014 02:31 pm
Now, given that both ISRO and Roscosmos are planning on landing on the moon, I believe that a Lunar Seismic Network could be done by supplying a couple of instruments and sanding one or two landers.
BTW, China would be the ideal partner there, regrettably.

[Deleted stuff that I pretty much agree with.]

Certainly the Moon is the more obvious option for a seismic network from a partnering (and cost) standpoint. I'm not sure if you put a bunch of seismic scientists in a room if they would agree that the Moon is a more interesting seismic network target than Mars. I think that they would probably all agree that they would like to have a network somewhere, just because our knowledge of terrestrial body interiors is so limited.

When Alan Stern was the AA for science at NASA, he was actively pushing the International Lunar Network. His concept was that NASA would launch two seismic landers, and then offer up the instruments to other countries with the hope of getting at least two more landers. (He wanted to gut the Mars program partly to pay for this, and if he had started to implement it he probably would have faced a lot of opposition--he was apparently already facing internal opposition over it.) The Lunar Geophysical Network is an option for the New Frontiers 5 competition, probably in the early 20s:

http://thespacereview.com/article/2413/1

LGN could still happen with substantial international participation (although working that into a NF proposal itself is difficult). The ideal situation would be for China on its own, or with partner participation, to add seismic sensors to its landers. After all, China plans on putting at least 2-3 more landers on the Moon, and adding a seismometer to a couple of them would not substantially increase their complexity or detract from their primary goals. That said, in order for a network to provide the most useful data the nodes need to be spread out pretty far, with at least one of them on the far side. If China puts all their landers in the same general area on the near side of the Moon it won't provide much better information than the Apollo instruments.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/02/2014 11:32 pm
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)

I assumed the context was that other countries may land on Mars, and if they do so, they are going to want to design their own landers (because that is the point). It is easier to offer up an instrument for somebody else's lander than it is to try and convince them to pay you for your own lander.

The US could contribute the lander, just like they are with InSight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/02/2014 11:37 pm
It might be better to offer the lander, and have other countries equip it with instruments (and a better camera)

I assumed the context was that other countries may land on Mars, and if they do so, they are going to want to design their own landers (because that is the point). It is easier to offer up an instrument for somebody else's lander than it is to try and convince them to pay you for your own lander.
Besides, NASA is more trustable as an instrument supplier partner than a LV/lander module partner.
I would like to point out that, in this budget reatricted times, NASA appears to be replicating the SAC-D/Aquarius model with ISRO for a radar mission. And in the end, they did kept their promised instruments for ExoMars.
The problem with Mars, is that the are three or four proven EDLs for Mars, and all of them are JPL's. So it's very difficult for NASA to partner just on instruments since just now ESA and Roscosmos are developing the necessary technologies.
Now, given that both ISRO and Roscosmos are planning on landing on the moon, I believe that a Lunar Seismic Network could be done by supplying a couple of instruments and sanding one or two landers.
BTW, China would be the ideal partner there, regrettably.

Actually the US has a good record on smaller missions, which using the Phoenix/Insight derived lander would be.

And JPL does not have a monopoly of landing on Mars.  The Phoenix/Insight lander was developed by  Lockheed-Martin, based on the work by Martin Marietta for Langley with Viking.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/03/2014 12:11 am
The US could contribute the lander, just like they are with InSight.

There is no U.S. funding mechanism that would lead to NASA flying another Mars seismic lander. And no other country is going to pay the U.S. for a Mars lander when they would prefer to pay themselves to build a lander.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: savuporo on 01/03/2014 12:12 am
And JPL does not have a monopoly of landing on Mars.  The Phoenix/Insight lander was developed by  Lockheed-Martin, based on the work by Martin Marietta for Langley with Viking.
Um, pretty much every Mars mission is done with JPL contracting Lockheed Martin space systems. Not even sure if this list is complete
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_Space_Systems#Sensing_.26_Exploration_Systems
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 01/03/2014 12:41 am

Um, pretty much every Mars mission is done with JPL contracting Lockheed Martin space systems. Not even sure if this list is complete


Not Viking.  It was Langley
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/03/2014 10:29 pm
The US could contribute the lander, just like they are with InSight.

There is no U.S. funding mechanism that would lead to NASA flying another Mars seismic lander. And no other country is going to pay the U.S. for a Mars lander when they would prefer to pay themselves to build a lander.

Not quite sure what you are getting at here.

There are huge advantages to having a network of seismometers as opposed to one.  Locating the position of seismic events is one.  Determining the internal structure of Mars is another.  Wider coverage is a third.  So a future seismic instrument is surely possible, even if there is "no US funding mechanisms".

Secondly, the seismic instrument is not a US instrument, it is a French one, with support from several other European institutions and JPL. 

Thirdly, all the instruments on Insight are from Europe examining heatflow and rotation.  They are not paying for the lander, the are contributing to a joint mission.  Or are you saying that this type of collaboration will not happen in the future?

Fourthly, there is no obligation for future missions to fly exactly the same payload.  The basic lander will have been used three times, with a different set of instruments each time.  It has proved successful and adaptable.  There are a wide range of issues that can be addressed using a stationary lander.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/03/2014 10:32 pm
And JPL does not have a monopoly of landing on Mars.  The Phoenix/Insight lander was developed by  Lockheed-Martin, based on the work by Martin Marietta for Langley with Viking.
Um, pretty much every Mars mission is done with JPL contracting Lockheed Martin space systems. Not even sure if this list is complete
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_Space_Systems#Sensing_.26_Exploration_Systems

Langley developed and managed the program in general, and developed the landers.  JPL developed or orbiters and managed the science mission.

See http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/viking/viking30_fs.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: savuporo on 01/03/2014 10:42 pm
Langley developed and managed the program in general, and developed the landers.  JPL developed or orbiters and managed the science mission.
Yes i got that. I guess 40 years later, all of the relevant expertise would be at JPL/LockMart by now.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/04/2014 02:59 am
1-Not quite sure what you are getting at here.

2-There are huge advantages to having a network of seismometers as opposed to one.  Locating the position of seismic events is one.  Determining the internal structure of Mars is another.  Wider coverage is a third.  So a future seismic instrument is surely possible, even if there is "no US funding mechanisms".

3-Secondly, the seismic instrument is not a US instrument, it is a French one, with support from several other European institutions and JPL. 

4-all the instruments on Insight are from Europe examining heatflow and rotation.  They are not paying for the lander, the are contributing to a joint mission.  Or are you saying that this type of collaboration will not happen in the future?

5-there is no obligation for future missions to fly exactly the same payload.  The basic lander will have been used three times, with a different set of instruments each time.  It has proved successful and adaptable.  There are a wide range of issues that can be addressed using a stationary lander.

1-Yes, it is clear that you are confused about this. I'll try to clarify.

2-Yeah, huge advantages. But InSight is funded as a Discovery mission. It is a one-off mission. If there is going to be a second American seismic mission to Mars it will not happen as New Frontiers (did not make the cut), and it could only happen as another Discovery mission--and it will not happen, because the science value of a second seismic mission to Mars is far less than a whole bunch of other mission proposals that will be made to Discovery.

Ergo: unless another country funds a second seismic mission to Mars, it is not going to happen.

3-Not really relevant. The expensive thing is getting to Mars and landing. The U.S. is not going to fund that even if the French build more instruments and offer them up for free.

4-This kind of collaboration can happen in the future. But it won't happen for a second seismic mission. Reread point 2 above.

5-Sure. Somebody could propose a Mars meteorological lander to Discovery. Or they could propose a polar drill mission to Discovery. And they could propose using the same lander. And maybe they could add a seismic instrument as a secondary payload, assuming that they have the mass to do that (although why would they want to do it if the other science is more important to them?).

However, I suspect that additional Mars lander proposals would not fare well. There are a LOT of Discovery proposals floating around out there, and a lot of people who want to compete. And most of them want to go to places other than Mars. During the last Discovery call there were 28 mission proposals. I've managed to put together a partial list of what they were:

--4 Venus radar missions
--3 other Venus missions (probably landers/balloons of some sort)
--~8 asteroid/comet missions
(of the above, one was Tom Jones' NEO lander, another was Amy Mainzer's NEO survey mission that got some tech funding, and one was Comet Hopper)
--TiME (Titan lake lander)
--1 lunar seismic lander
--~2/3 lunar south pole ice prospectors
--InSight
--1 Io observer
(That's about 21-22 out of 28 right there.)

My guess is that the remainder were lunar and Mars missions, probably a couple of Mars trace gas orbiter type missions and maybe a lander or two. There might have also been a planetary telescope in the mix as well.

Now at the next Discovery call you can expect a number of repeat proposals. Even if the total number of proposals is smaller, you can figure that the distribution will be roughly the same.* There's no reason to expect a second Mars seismic lander to rank highly in that competition when InSight has already checked that box.




*One question is if the Venus community will get their act together. In particular, they don't need to pitch four different Venus radar missions. They need to pitch one good one. But it's like the old saying goes: there's no "team" in "I" and the reason they get multiple proposals is because individual principal investigators don't want to team up, they all want to be in charge.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/04/2014 10:28 am
Thanks for that.

However I think you are seriously underestimating the value of having a seismic network.

One seismic station tells you that there are earthquakes, that is about all. 

Two seismic stations will give approximate distance and therefore an approximate position.  It will also allow depth determination.

Three will triangulate position, provide good depth information, and allow measurement of the properties and structure of the martian interior.|

We currently only have such data for Earth and the Moon.  Mars is the only other body in the solar system we are likely to get such data for any time in the next century.  These data will not only tell us about Mars, but also how planets evolve.

Are these more important than some of the other options?  I don't know.  But they are important and sooner or later they will be flown.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/04/2014 03:31 pm
Thanks for that.

However I think you are seriously underestimating the value of having a seismic network.

I'm not doing anything of the sort. I'm not reporting my opinions on this subject, just the facts of the matter. The facts are that the scientific community (via the decadal survey which establishes priorities for the U.S. planetary science program) has decided that a seismic network on the Moon is valuable. It therefore included one as an option for the New Frontiers 5 competition in the early 20s. But the community did not include a Mars seismic network as a priority. If anybody is underestimating the value of a seismic network on Mars it is them, not me. I'm not a scientist and I don't have an opinion on this subject.

Because a Mars seismic network is not in the decadal survey, the only way that a seismic sensor is getting to Mars is because it won in the Discovery competition.

Now a Mars seismic network was included as one of the possibilities in the NOSSE report in 2007 and therefore was a possible mission to compete for New Frontiers 3 (which selected OSIRIS-REx instead). Indeed, Bruce Banerdt was trying to develop a Mars seismic network mission proposal called Cerebrus to compete for NF3. However, JPL decided not to compete Cerebrus for NF3. (I don't know why, but my guess is that they determined that it could not be done within the cost cap. Banerdt gets high marks in my book for even talking about Cerebrus. Lots of scientists come up with mission proposals and when they lose, they don't tell anybody about them. I think that hurts the community. But Banerdt was willing to say "I tried, I lost in the first step, here's what I was trying to do." I'm glad he got a chance with InSight because I think he's a good guy.)

Now we can all hope that InSight gets to Mars successfully and operates forever. If it is still operating in the 20s, and particularly if it discovers interesting seismic activity on Mars, there might be incentive for putting more sensors on the surface. Maybe they will be carried along with other payloads. Maybe in 2028 InSight will be just one node among several in a Mars seismic network. But right now there are no plans for a seismic network on Mars.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 01/04/2014 04:28 pm
Thanks for that.

However I think you are seriously underestimating the value of having a seismic network.

One seismic station tells you that there are earthquakes, that is about all. 

Two seismic stations will give approximate distance and therefore an approximate position.  It will also allow depth determination.

Three will triangulate position, provide good depth information, and allow measurement of the properties and structure of the martian interior.|

We currently only have such data for Earth and the Moon.  Mars is the only other body in the solar system we are likely to get such data for any time in the next century.  These data will not only tell us about Mars, but also how planets evolve.

Are these more important than some of the other options?  I don't know.  But they are important and sooner or later they will be flown.

There are missions some of which Blackstar has outlined above that are of considerably more scientific importance than what you are outlining here. No one is going to waste the time and money on what you are proposing at this point in time I can assure you.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/04/2014 05:14 pm
I reviewed the Decadal Survey report.  There were a couple of options for two station implementations that would fit within a New Frontiers cost cap.  Three stations busted the cost cap.

The analysis of the Mars option at the end of the main report stated that a Mars mission would produce good science and fit within the cap.  However, the Mars missions selected by the Survey (i.e., the Flagship caching rover) filled up the Mars mission bucket.  Since geophysics was still a high priority, the lunar network (which is projected to be cheaper for each station) got the nod as the only other world where a seismic network would be placed within a New Frontiers cost cap.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/04/2014 05:31 pm
The analysis of the Mars option at the end of the main report stated that a Mars mission would produce good science and fit within the cap.  However, the Mars missions selected by the Survey (i.e., the Flagship caching rover) filled up the Mars mission bucket.  Since geophysics was still a high priority, the lunar network (which is projected to be cheaper for each station) got the nod as the only other world where a seismic network would be placed within a New Frontiers cost cap.

There was some tactical decision making with all of that. Essentially the Mars panel made a decision that they needed to send a clear message that sample return was their highest priority, and they decided to not argue for any Mars New Frontiers missions as a result. It was a way of sending an unambiguous message. (I wasn't in all those discussions because the Mars panel was not my responsibility.) I wouldn't say that decision was universal--there were some people who thought that there are useful NF class Mars missions to do--but you have to make trade-offs and compromises. They decided that sample return was so important that they gave up their NF choices. All or nothing.

(If you think this out, you can see a lot of potential ramifications, both good and bad. I think that at least some people reasoned that if there was indeed a Mars NF option, that would give NASA/OMB an excuse to not do the flagship caching rover and instead select the Mars NF mission independent of New Frontiers, thereby messing up the NF program in the process. Had there been a Mars NF choice, that might have happened in 2012 when the administration was clearly looking for a Mars mission that was not MAX-C. So maybe the Mars panel actually made the right decision.)

Of the possible NF missions, a lunar geophysical network is a possibility for NF #5. I suspect that its chances are limited because it will be a new entrant, whereas the missions that win New Frontiers (and Discovery, for that matter) tend to be missions that lost in a previous round and were improved and resubmitted. My guess is that for NF #4 the winner will either be a Venus mission or lunar sample return, both of which lost in the last round. (Comet cryo is also a contender, but that's a tougher mission to keep in the cost cap. The other options are all new ones, although I could see a Trojan tour being relatively easier to get inside the cost cap.)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/04/2014 07:49 pm
Of the possible NF missions, a lunar geophysical network is a possibility for NF #5. I suspect that its chances are limited because it will be a new entrant, whereas the missions that win New Frontiers (and Discovery, for that matter) tend to be missions that lost in a previous round and were improved and resubmitted. My guess is that for NF #4 the winner will either be a Venus mission or lunar sample return, both of which lost in the last round. (Comet cryo is also a contender, but that's a tougher mission to keep in the cost cap. The other options are all new ones, although I could see a Trojan tour being relatively easier to get inside the cost cap.)
The NF #4 mission lunar sample may need to compete against the Chinese.  Their Chang'e 5 & 6 sample return missions include relay orbiters, so they could easily sample the Aitken basin.  Given that the solar system is large and the number of missions by all space agencies is small, I hope they do and NASA can go elsewhere.

I've run roadmap exercises with $Bs in investment costs and $10Bs in revenues at stake (high tech industry).  It was exactly the type of framing questions that Blackstar discusses that limited the options (for good or bad) that were studied.  I'd have preferred that the Survey called for a terrestrial world geophysical network and let the proposers decide on the moon vs Mars (especially once we have InSight results back).  Same for the outer planets.  Uranus was studied as a flagship, and so the science tradeoff of a New Frontiers Saturn vs. Uranus mission weren't compared.  I'd prefer that the Survey left it as an outer planets probe mission since the science from any (even Jupiter if someone finds a magic wand to recreate the test facilities) would be equally compelling.

The comet sample return requirements don't appear to be crisp in terms of cooling.  The mission study was a summary of an earlier study (2007) and the final report just says preserve at least some volatiles.  Blackstar, any more insight into this?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/04/2014 10:03 pm
1-The NF #4 mission lunar sample may need to compete against the Chinese.  Their Chang'e 5 & 6 sample return missions include relay orbiters, so they could easily sample the Aitken basin.  Given that the solar system is large and the number of missions by all space agencies is small, I hope they do and NASA can go elsewhere.

2-Uranus was studied as a flagship, and so the science tradeoff of a New Frontiers Saturn vs. Uranus mission weren't compared.  I'd prefer that the Survey left it as an outer planets probe mission since the science from any (even Jupiter if someone finds a magic wand to recreate the test facilities) would be equally compelling.

3-The comet sample return requirements don't appear to be crisp in terms of cooling.  The mission study was a summary of an earlier study (2007) and the final report just says preserve at least some volatiles.  Blackstar, any more insight into this?

1-Yes, China might do this instead of NASA. I'm not sure that they will. And I'm not sure that they will before the next NF round (which should be around 2016 or so).

2-That's not really correct. The gas giants panel did consider New Frontiers at Uranus (or Neptune, although the Neptune trajectories are not good). That would have been a flyby and they considered the science return too low for the cost. You mention "probe" and I'm not sure if you mean atmospheric probe, but they didn't want one for Jupiter, they wanted it for Saturn. And I'm sure that it is impossible to do for Uranus or Neptune unless it is deployed from an orbiter.

Reta Beebe was the advocate for the Saturn atmosphere probe, if I remember. She went and collaborated with the JPL people to come up with a mission design. They tried and tried, but they could not get that mission to come in under $1 billion. She said that they were really upset about it, but they just could not do it. The panel stuck it into the decadal survey because they consider the science important, and because they hold out hope that there might be a smart scientist out there who might come up with a way to do a Saturn atmosphere probe cheaper and squeeze it into the cost cap. Their idol in this is Scott Bolton, who found a way to do Juno even though the original requirement was for atmospheric probe(s), which would have put him over the cost cap. People essentially said "Maybe there's another Scott Bolton out there with a clever solution that we have not thought of."

I don't know why it could not come in under $1 billion. After all, it's a pretty simple spacecraft. However, transit times alone increase costs (you spend a lot of money simply waiting to arrive at the target). And this was also consistent with some studies done around 2006 that all concluded that you can get to Jupiter for under a billion dollars, but you cannot get to Saturn for under a billion dollars, even if all you are doing is shooting a brick out there. The economics work against it.

3-I don't remember the details, but the overall gist of their work was that they knew that any mission proposal would go through a vigorous review for selection, so they wanted to leave certain things vague enough so that the people doing the review would have some wiggle room. (This is somewhat off the top of my head) so if, for instance, the DS had said "preserve the cryo sample all the way to the Earth's surface" then the review team would assume that the DS meant "preserve ALL of the sample." But if instead the DS said "preserve some of the sample," then this would allow the review team to determine if the proposer had preserved sufficient samples to answer the major science questions. So, for instance, a review team might conclude that it is okay if 90% of the sample melts, but they get a core that is still cryogenically preserved.

All from hazy memory.

I'll repeat what I always say in these things which is that the people who were involved were really good. And although I hate the term, I'll say that they behaved like adults (meaning that sometimes they argued against their own personal or institutional interests, believing that they had to help their field as a whole). They understood that it was impossible to have all the answers, and that they needed to leave enough room for interpretation for the people who would do the real work making these missions happen. That included both NASA officials and program managers as well as scientists and the review teams that select the missions.

For instance, our primitive bodies panel only had around a dozen people on it, covering a range of topics from asteroids to comets to materials to engineering. But at the next NF competition, if there is a comet cryo sample return mission proposed, there will be a review team that is composed of experts on that specific kind of mission, and those people will be smarter and more knowledgeable on that specific subject than the DS primitive bodies panel. So the DS panel didn't want to do anything that might prevent a mission from happening, simply because of their own limitations. Good people.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 01/04/2014 11:49 pm
Now that you mention it. When could we get the InSight results? It shoyld arrive by the end of 2016, do main mission by the end of 2018, and thus have the main analysis done just in time for  the 2020 decadal, right? Also, if the lunar seismic network is done as an NF would have been decided. So the 2020 Decadal will have much better information on deciding on doing either a lunar or a martian seismic network.
Secondly, if they keep good records of InSight, thay might be able to actually do the network with very little design effort, if they just send threw or four copies. Who kniws, may be they could bundle them on a Falcon Heavy and even save on the launch.
If I have to say, I think that the siesmic scientists played a masterful hand. Ironically, the only possible competition might be the sample return mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/05/2014 03:57 am
2-That's not really correct. The gas giants panel did consider New Frontiers at Uranus (or Neptune, although the Neptune trajectories are not good). That would have been a flyby and they considered the science return too low for the cost. You mention "probe" and I'm not sure if you mean atmospheric probe, but they didn't want one for Jupiter, they wanted it for Saturn. And I'm sure that it is impossible to do for Uranus or Neptune unless it is deployed from an orbiter.

I don't know why it could not come in under $1 billion. After all, it's a pretty simple spacecraft. However, transit times alone increase costs (you spend a lot of money simply waiting to arrive at the target). And this was also consistent with some studies done around 2006 that all concluded that you can get to Jupiter for under a billion dollars, but you cannot get to Saturn for under a billion dollars, even if all you are doing is shooting a brick out there. The economics work against it.
I ran a number of roadmap processes for a Fortune 50 high tech company.  (For the larger ones, we could have funded a New Frontiers mission with the engineering investment and funded the Decadal Survey with the profits.)  So much of my interest in the Decadal Survey was just in how they did it and was it well done.  I emphatically say yes on both grounds.

My thoughts about tweaking the Survey are at a single marginal question...the science goals are stable and long lasting but there may still be a better way to skin this cat.  (One of the lesson learned findings after the Survey was that too few missions studies were done, especially for the outer planets.) I really like Venus radar missions and really want a high resolution thermal imager for Titan (not only is my professional work related to mapping, but some of my best friends are geomorphologists).  I don't advocate for those, except to hope that good proposals are made to the Discovery program (if it continues).

Blackstar, you have the insider's track, but the published reports suggest that there was no consideration of a Uranus flyby mission or a Uranus atmospheric probe (with carrier craft) mission only.  There was a Neptune flyby/orbiter study that was done.  The Uranus report stated that a ground rule going into their study was, "Planetary orbit must be achieved with floor payload (not a flyby mission)."

Recent studies continue to suggest that a Uranus atmospheric probe mission could be done from a flyby mission.  Spilker at last summer's IPPW meeting closed his presentation on comparisons of Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune flyby atmospheric probe missions by saying, "In most entry circumstance cases, entry conditions for Uranus or Neptune entries are similar to Saturn conditions."  Spilker led so many of the Saturn probe mission studies that his statements have a lot of credibility with me.  (His presentation also provided supporting details for the conclusion.)

The Decadal Survey said that atmospheric probes for both Saturn and Uranus were high priority, but associated them with different sized mission programs.  If the outer planets science team said that Saturn was higher priority than Uranus regardless of mission cost, then that answers my question.  If Saturn was picked as a New Frontiers candidate only because it was studied as a New Frontiers mission while Uranus wasn't, then this is one of the few open questions in my mind about the Survey's recommendations.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 01/05/2014 04:48 am
Maybe they will be carried along with other payloads.
That's my guess.  Geophones and magnetotellurics should be relatively easy, cheap, low bandwidth, low power, low mass.  I'm not sure who would pay to develop the standardized package, but I see it as low hanging fruit. 

There are missions some of which Blackstar has outlined above that are of considerably more scientific importance than what you are outlining here.
That's your opinion.  Not an intrinsic truth.  I'd pick a Cerebrus-ish mission (at least 3 nodes for source triangulation) over an open-ended sample cache mission.  But that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/05/2014 02:15 pm
1-That's my guess.  Geophones and magnetotellurics should be relatively easy, cheap, low bandwidth, low power, low mass.  I'm not sure who would pay to develop the standardized package, but I see it as low hanging fruit. 

2-That's your opinion.  Not an intrinsic truth.  I'd pick a Cerebrus-ish mission (at least 3 nodes for source triangulation) over an open-ended sample cache mission.  But that's just my opinion.

1-Except that you still need an arm to set the seismic package down on the surface. If the spacecraft does not have that, then you need to add it. There are some instruments (weather sensors) that can be added to a lander relatively easily and without interfering with the primary science payload. But seismic sensors are trickier. Keep in mind that it is very important that the spacecraft itself not mess up the readings.

2-Er... it's pretty much the opinion you would get from 99 out of 100 planetary scientists. Simply putting a single seismic sensor on Mars, as InSight will do, would check a box. After that, the incremental science gained from adding more sensors is not as great. And there are a LOT of Discovery mission ideas out there. Do you think that adding more seismic sensors on Mars is more exciting or interesting or worthwhile than say, a Titan lake lander? Or how about a Comet Hopper?

This is not saying that seismic science for Mars is unimportant. But these decisions are evaluated in a web of considerations, all of which have to be evaluated against each other. There are a lot of interesting things to do in the solar system that can still be done at the Discovery level.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/05/2014 02:21 pm
Also, if the lunar seismic network is done as an NF would have been decided. So the 2020 Decadal will have much better information on deciding on doing either a lunar or a martian seismic network.

No. The New Frontiers 5 competition probably will not be decided before the decadal survey is finished. Might happen around that time, but not before. And as I noted earlier, Lunar Geophysical Network doesn't get to compete until NF5. And if I was a betting man, I would bet that it would not win NF5. Brand new proposals rarely win, they usually have to lose a few times, get critiqued, improve, and only then can they win.

However, NF 4 will be decided by the time of the next decadal. My guess is that will either be lunar sample return or Venus in situ explorer. Take one of those off the list and it will open up a slot when the DS creates its new list.

If InSight returns data that shows that Mars is ringing like a bell, that could certainly affect the future deliberations. But we don't know until we know.

Of course, discoveries can affect that as well. And so can other events. If China does South Pole-Aitken Basin sample return, NASA won't have to do it (maybe). If India does a Venus radar mapping mission, that may change the equation. The Russians still want to do Venera-D and NASA is wisely trying to coordinate science goals with them.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/05/2014 02:38 pm
1-(One of the lesson learned findings after the Survey was that too few missions studies were done, especially for the outer planets.)

2-but the published reports suggest that there was no consideration of a Uranus flyby mission or a Uranus atmospheric probe (with carrier craft) mission only.  There was a Neptune flyby/orbiter study that was done.  The Uranus report stated that a ground rule going into their study was, "Planetary orbit must be achieved with floor payload (not a flyby mission)."

Recent studies continue to suggest that a Uranus atmospheric probe mission could be done from a flyby mission.  Spilker at last summer's IPPW meeting closed his presentation on comparisons of Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune flyby atmospheric probe missions by saying, "In most entry circumstance cases, entry conditions for Uranus or Neptune entries are similar to Saturn conditions."  Spilker led so many of the Saturn probe mission studies that his statements have a lot of credibility with me.  (His presentation also provided supporting details for the conclusion.)

The Decadal Survey said that atmospheric probes for both Saturn and Uranus were high priority, but associated them with different sized mission programs.  If the outer planets science team said that Saturn was higher priority than Uranus regardless of mission cost, then that answers my question.  If Saturn was picked as a New Frontiers candidate only because it was studied as a New Frontiers mission while Uranus wasn't, then this is one of the few open questions in my mind about the Survey's recommendations.

1-I'll have to read the lessons learned document (I was at the workshop), but I don't know if I agree with that. We did a LOT of mission studies. Part of the reason we had to do so many was because NASA had not done as many as they should during the preceding decade. I think that the number that we did in fact strained the members and staff (and made the DS more expensive than it should have been). If NASA funds a number of mission studies between now and the next DS, I don't think that the next one has to do MORE mission studies.

2-I think the panel considered the Neptune flyby mission also in the context of a Uranus flyby. Maybe only in conversation, they did not have a formal Uranus flyby proposal (I think they considered what you'd get if you flew the Argo mission past Uranus: http://www.spacepolicyonline.com/pages/images/stories/PSDS%20GP1%20Hansen_Argo_Neptune%20Mission%20Concept.pdf ). But flybys of the ice giants were considered to be low science return. They did not need a dedicated Uranus flyby mission study to provide more data. The science never made it through the gate.

I don't see how a Uranus atmospheric probe only would make any sense. And it certainly would not be cheap enough to fit in a New Frontiers box. After all, even the Saturn probe busted the box. There's no way to add years onto that baseline mission (and power and reliability requirements increase) without having the cost go even higher. I also suspect that risk goes up as well. In short, a Uranus atmosphere probe is going to cost even more than a Saturn atmosphere probe, and the Saturn probe was already expensive.

I'd also add that I don't see how a Uranus-only atmospheric probe is equivalent to a Saturn-only atmospheric probe in terms of science. The Saturn probe would go into an atmosphere that has been studied extensively by Cassini. It would have context that would allow for better interpretation of the data. An atmospheric probe at Uranus would not have much context and it would be really difficult to interpret the results.

Spilker is a good guy. He was on the satellites panel. I was disappointed that I didn't get to hang out with him more. I have started writing a history paper on ice giants mission proposals and Tom told me about a very early document that he came across in his files. I need to remind him to look for again...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/05/2014 08:29 pm


There are missions some of which Blackstar has outlined above that are of considerably more scientific importance than what you are outlining here. No one is going to waste the time and money on what you are proposing at this point in time I can assure you.

In your opinion.  That is something for the scientific community to decide. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/05/2014 08:40 pm
Thanks for that.

However I think you are seriously underestimating the value of having a seismic network.

Quote
just the facts of the matter. The facts are that the scientific community (via the decadal survey which establishes priorities for the U.S. planetary science program) has decided that a seismic network on the Moon is valuable. It therefore included one as an option for the New Frontiers 5 competition in the early 20s. But the community did not include a Mars seismic network as a priority. If anybody is underestimating the value of a seismic network on Mars it is them, not me. I'm not a scientist and I don't have an opinion on this subject.

Because a Mars seismic network is not in the decadal survey, the only way that a seismic sensor is getting to Mars is because it won in the Discovery competition.

Now a Mars seismic network was included as one of the possibilities in the NOSSE report in 2007 and therefore was a possible mission to compete for New Frontiers 3 (which selected OSIRIS-REx instead). Indeed, Bruce Banerdt was trying to develop a Mars seismic network mission proposal called Cerebrus to compete for NF3. However, JPL decided not to compete Cerebrus for NF3. (I don't know why, but my guess is that they determined that it could not be done within the cost cap. Banerdt gets high marks in my book for even talking about Cerebrus. Lots of scientists come up with mission proposals and when they lose, they don't tell anybody about them. I think that hurts the community. But Banerdt was willing to say "I tried, I lost in the first step, here's what I was trying to do." I'm glad he got a chance with InSight because I think he's a good guy.)

Now we can all hope that InSight gets to Mars successfully and operates forever. If it is still operating in the 20s, and particularly if it discovers interesting seismic activity on Mars, there might be incentive for putting more sensors on the surface. Maybe they will be carried along with other payloads. Maybe in 2028 InSight will be just one node among several in a Mars seismic network. But right now there are no plans for a seismic network on Mars.

I am certainly thinking longer term.  Unless the Insight mission shows there is significant seismic activity there isn't much point to planning a network.

Since the LM lander has been already round for 15 years, it may not be impossible that it will still be available in the 20s, especially if Insight is successful.

Of course future missions from other agencies may well put their own seismometers on Mars, making an Insight follow up redundant.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/05/2014 08:42 pm
1-Except that you still need an arm to set the seismic package down on the surface. If the spacecraft does not have that, then you need to add it. There are some instruments (weather sensors) that can be added to a lander relatively easily and without interfering with the primary science payload. But seismic sensors are trickier. Keep in mind that it is very important that the spacecraft itself not mess up the readings.

You don't need a robot arm to deploy a seisometer.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 01/05/2014 10:23 pm


There are missions some of which Blackstar has outlined above that are of considerably more scientific importance than what you are outlining here. No one is going to waste the time and money on what you are proposing at this point in time I can assure you.

In your opinion.  That is something for the scientific community to decide.

Not really if as many expect Mars is geologically dead & InSight confirms this then the issue will be mute as even considering a network in these circumstances would serve no purpose.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 01/05/2014 10:44 pm
Not really if as many expect Mars is geologically dead & InSight confirms this then the issue will be mute as even considering a network in these circumstances would serve no purpose.
There are volcanics, impacts, seasonally changing polar isostacy, etc.  we know unequivocally, that it is not seismically dead.  What we don't know is much about the interior structures and characteristics. 

As Dalhousie explained, one geophone location does very little for science.  3 or more contemporaneous locations brings very significant science data. 

I guess I'm just amazed/perplexed that sending just one geophone won any kind of competition in the scientific community.  I would have voted against it in favor of almost any other mission. 

In contrast, I think a mission like Cerebrus would be extremely valuable, but I think there's a low-cost way to get the data (standardized package for future landers) - it could be part of the ballast on the heat-shield for the sample cache mission for example.  Geophones are small.  Magnetotelluric's stuff can be small.  Both are low mass, low power, and low bandwidth. 

I agree that after Insight is flown, it will be hard to do a proper survey because people can say "You've already done your geophysics thing."  To which the correct but unbelieved reply would certainly be "not really". 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/05/2014 10:58 pm
1-I guess I'm just amazed/perplexed that sending just one geophone won any kind of competition in the scientific community.  I would have voted against it in favor of almost any other mission. 

2-In contrast, I think a mission like Cerebrus would be extremely valuable, but I think there's a low-cost way to get the data (standardized package for future landers) - it could be part of the ballast on the heat-shield for the sample cache mission for example.  Geophones are small.  Magnetotelluric's stuff can be small.  Both are low mass, low power, and low bandwidth. 

1-Were you in a position to vote against it? Have you served on NASA mission proposal review teams before?

2-If you believe that you can design such a mission cheaply, then by all means please contact JPL and/or APL immediately and discuss your mission concept with them. They're always looking for smart people with smart ideas. Their numbers are in the phone book. Please be prepared to show them your engineering and cost analysis data, however. They like to see that stuff.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/05/2014 11:24 pm
I guess I'm just amazed/perplexed that sending just one geophone won any kind of competition in the scientific community.  I would have voted against it in favor of almost any other mission. 
I think that Banerdt et al. have done a very good job showing that one station can dramatically improve our knowledge of Mars' geophysics.  He will also be the first to tell you that three+ stations are what is really needed.  However, only two stations could fit within a New Frontiers budget as I recall, and two is not much better than one.  (You can find any of several presentations he did to MEPAG and the Mars Decadal Survey panel for details.)

I do wonder if NASA took the now known problems with ASRGs into account in selecting InSight over TiME and CHOPPER.  At least there were three great choices so we still got a great mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/06/2014 02:03 am
I do wonder if NASA took the now known problems with ASRGs into account in selecting InSight over TiME and CHOPPER. 

I don't think the cost overruns with ASRG were fully apparent at that time. That, plus NASA getting stuck with the Pu-238 production costs, plus additional cuts to the planetary budget, forced the cancellation of ASRG.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 01/06/2014 11:22 am
I wonder if it would be at all viable to do an InSight mission to Venus. Would there be anyway of getting such a mission to last any length of time on the surface? I suppose you could double up with something like a balloon probe remaining in the atmosphere dropping a seismic device onto the surface. At least then if the surface device didn't last any length of time you would still have the atmospheric probe.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 01/06/2014 01:25 pm
I think Robotbeat had worked on some Venus surface proposal. But as interesting as this might be (probably the closest relative Earth has) it would still require some serious advances.
But Venus surface is hard. Among other issues, the CO2 on the surface (for whatever is defined as the datum altitude in Venus) is at 740K/9.2MPa, which is bigger than the critical point (304.25K/7.39MPa). Thus, on the surface you are immersed in supercritical CO2.
Also the above mentioned pressure and temperature are big issues. I don't believe the heavy atmosphere would allow much solar energy. And remember that radiator efficiency is the 4th power of the temperature differential. Thus, any RTG that you send will have atrocious performance. Besides the fact that you'll have to redesign specifically for Venus and won't be able to use it on anything else.
And the crushing pressure will require to pressure balance any moving part. Again, the temperature and pressure will make the easiest solution (filling everything moving with some liquid) very difficult indeed.
Luckily, the Venus environment could be simulated very accurately on Earth with an hyperbaric chamber. A big chamber to simulate Venus surface condition should be the first investment of the Venusian science community, if they desire to do any surface mission.
Which takes us to the real issue: science priorities. Apparently, the venus community haven't got their act together. They didn't prioritized at all. But it would seem that radar missions and atmospheric sampling was higher on the science priority lists.
Having said all that, I don't believe you could salvage much (if anything at all) of the InSight design for Venus. I suspect the commonality would be somewhere between zero and null. The only relationship that I can see, is that if InSight shows that Mars is tectonically active and interesting, it might spark a lot of research in the area. If I'm not mistaken, if you grow the geophysicists pool, some are bound to be very interested in Venus. The more data you enable, the more scientists will study it. And the more data they'll demand. Remember that this guys are in high demand here for oil and gas studies. If you can show them strange cases that allow them to better understand their earth models (like finding phantom parameters) you could get a lot of study money.
I believe that InSight is pretty important in that regard. If it finds very interesting data, it might leverage further studies. And if that means more interest in the Moon network, and then again on a Mars network, the next logical targets would be Venus, Mercury and Ceres (in that order, I believe). I think that the most important paper that can come out of InSight is one which improves the Earth techniques and enable better prospecting. That would open a lot of interests on making further investment. Specially if you can get deductible contributions from big oil.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/06/2014 02:14 pm
I wonder if it would be at all viable to do an InSight mission to Venus. Would there be anyway of getting such a mission to last any length of time on the surface? I suppose you could double up with something like a balloon probe remaining in the atmosphere dropping a seismic device onto the surface. At least then if the surface device didn't last any length of time you would still have the atmospheric probe.

Not sure what you're getting at here. A seismic mission on Venus? Problem is time. If your spacecraft lasts only a few hours what are the chances you will detect a seismic event in that time? (And I can imagine that the atmosphere may create some issues for seismic sensors.)

If you mean a Venus lander, that's in play as a possible New Frontiers mission. Look up the Venus In Situ Explorer, including Larry Esposito's proposal (which lost in the last NF round). You might even find Larry's short video of the sampling device--a buzz saw that would cut into the Venusian surface. He plans on re-competing that proposal, although scaling it down to make it smaller (and keep within the cost cap).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 01/06/2014 02:39 pm

I wonder if it would be at all viable to do an InSight mission to Venus. Would there be anyway of getting such a mission to last any length of time on the surface? I suppose you could double up with something like a balloon probe remaining in the atmosphere dropping a seismic device onto the surface. At least then if the surface device didn't last any length of time you would still have the atmospheric probe.

Not sure what you're getting at here. A seismic mission on Venus? Problem is time. If your spacecraft lasts only a few hours what are the chances you will detect a seismic event in that time? (And I can imagine that the atmosphere may create some issues for seismic sensors.)

If you mean a Venus lander, that's in play as a possible New Frontiers mission. Look up the Venus In Situ Explorer, including Larry Esposito's proposal (which lost in the last NF round). You might even find Larry's short video of the sampling device--a buzz saw that would cut into the Venusian surface. He plans on re-competing that proposal, although scaling it down to make it smaller (and keep within the cost cap).

Was a balloon mission for Venus's atmosphere proposed as I am sure I read something about this?

All I can find NASA wise is this somewhat old article.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16797-nasa-may-send-fleet-of-spacecraft-to-venus.html#.UsrOA3ggHCQ
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/06/2014 03:55 pm
Was a balloon mission for Venus's atmosphere proposed as I am sure I read something about this?

All I can find NASA wise is this somewhat old article.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16797-nasa-may-send-fleet-of-spacecraft-to-venus.html#.UsrOA3ggHCQ

Yeah, balloons have been proposed for Venus (the Russians flew French balloons on at least one of their missions). Look up Venus In Situ Explorer and read about that.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: go4mars on 01/08/2014 07:53 pm
Were you in a position to vote against it? Have you served on NASA mission proposal review teams before?
No and not yet.

But I appreciate these suggestions (some good thoughts in here):
if you grow the geophysicists... Remember that this guys are in high demand here for oil and gas studies. If you can show them strange cases that allow them to better understand their earth models (like finding phantom parameters) you could get a lot of study money.
I think that the most important paper that can come out of InSight is one which improves the Earth techniques and enable better prospecting. That would open a lot of interests on making further investment. Specially if you can get deductible contributions from big oil.

If you believe that you can design such a mission cheaply, then by all means please contact JPL and/or APL immediately and discuss your mission concept with them...  be prepared to show them your engineering and cost analysis data
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 01/15/2014 03:11 am
I do wonder if NASA took the now known problems with ASRGs into account in selecting InSight over TiME and CHOPPER. 

I don't think the cost overruns with ASRG were fully apparent at that time. That, plus NASA getting stuck with the Pu-238 production costs, plus additional cuts to the planetary budget, forced the cancellation of ASRG.

Add to it the heavy dose of lobbying by JPL against ASRG for which they had no viable Discovery-class missions to propose, JPL's preference for their in-house advanced thermoelectrics that they have been pursuing for the last 12 years or so over alternative, higher efficiency energy conversion technologies like stirling engines, and JPL's heavy lobbying for Mars-focused missions over other planetary destinations as Mars is essentially their "sand-box" to rule (and HEOMD focus on Mars as a destination) and it is no-wonder that Insight was chosen.  However this is just my clearly biased opinion on the matter.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: MATTBLAK on 01/15/2014 03:51 am
I want a Ceres lander equipped with a very big drill!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/15/2014 05:42 pm
I want a Ceres lander equipped with a very big drill!

I want a Neptune orbiter with a Triton rover...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/15/2014 06:13 pm
I want a Ceres lander equipped with a very big drill!

I want a Neptune orbiter with a Triton rover...
In order:

Europa Clipper
Titan/Enceladus Clipper
Modern Venus radar mapper
Uranus atmospheric probe (remote sensing instruments nice, too)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/15/2014 06:37 pm
Modern Venus radar mapper

I think the Indians are likely to do this. Maybe more likely to do it than the U.S.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 01/15/2014 06:50 pm
Modern Venus radar mapper
I think the Indians are likely to do this. Maybe more likely to do it than the U.S.
Good joint mission with NASA, since the data volumes are pretty high and the DSN would be a godsend. 

Russia and the US are also investigating coordinated Venus missions for the early 2020s.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/16/2014 08:40 pm
Modern Venus radar mapper
I think the Indians are likely to do this. Maybe more likely to do it than the U.S.
1-Good joint mission with NASA, since the data volumes are pretty high and the DSN would be a godsend. 

2-Russia and the US are also investigating coordinated Venus missions for the early 2020s.

1-There's also other precedent. The U.S. supplied a radar for the Indian lunar mission. Now India has a radar that they could put on a Venus mission, but it's also possible that if India wanted to do this mission NASA could supply the radar. In addition, the Indians had problems with overheating on their lunar spacecraft and I think that they received some advice from the U.S. about that (but I'm not sure of that). Thermal control around Venus would be important, and the U.S. (particularly the people at APL who built MESSENGER) have a lot of experience there and could share it.

I'm not saying that it will happen, but such cooperation could build upon some past relationships.

2-The U.S. is actually planning a meeting with the Russians to work out a science definition team for Venera-D. There was an announcement from LPI about this a month or more ago. The obvious thing to do would be to coordinate the U.S. science goals with the Russian ones. My guess is that we'd want to pick the planetary science decadal survey Venus flagship science goals (as opposed to the New Frontiers Venus science goals--although there is overlap) and figure out if the Russians will or can go after some of them, possibly even with some U.S. instruments.


Here's the announcement:

http://science.nasa.gov/researchers/sara/grant-solicitations/roscosmosiki-science-definition-team-venera-d/

Joint NASA Roscosmos/IKI Science Definition Team for the Venera-D
Call for Letters of Application for Membership on the Joint NASA Roscosmos/IKI Science Definition Team for the Venera-D

Solicitation Number:    NNH14ZDA003L
Posted Date:    December 18, 2013
Response Date:    January 3, 2014

The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) invites scientists, technologists, and other qualified and interested individuals at U.S. institutions and elsewhere to apply for membership on the Science Definition Team (SDT) for the Venera-D Venus mission. Venera-D is a strategic Venus mission sponsored by Roscosmos, with participation by NASA’s Planetary Science Division, which is part of the Science Mission Directorate (SMD). 

This mission will advance the scientific priorities detailed in the National Research Council’s Planetary Science Decadal Survey, entitled “Visions and Voyages for Planetary Science in the Decade 2013-2022” (the Decadal Survey is available at http://www.nap.edu).  The Decadal Survey and the Phase A study of Venera-D (Venera-D mission information available at http://venera-d.cosmos.ru/index.php?id=658&L=2 ) conducted in Russia under the guidance of IKI (with participation of GEOKHI, IPM, FIRE, IFZ, and Lavochkin Association), show that there is substantial overlap in the objectives and implementation approach.  It is, thus, apparent that considerable cost savings can be achieved by a coordin­­ated and collaborative effort between U.S. and Russia respective space agencies.  This can be accomplished by the two agencies undertaking complementary and coordinated missions to Venus using the 2021-2023 launch opportunities. Venera-D is intended to investigate the complex Venusian environment and to decipher its geological processes and history, including the assessment of its atmospheric progression to its current extreme greenhouse state.

The members of the Venera-D SDT will provide NASA with scientific assistance and direction during preliminary concept definition (Pre-Phase Activities). Near-term activities of the SDT will include the establishment of baseline mission science objectives and a realistic scientific concept of surface and atmospheric operations, development of a strawman architecture, including payload/instrument suite as proof of concept, and suggestions for threshold science objectives/measurements for a preferred viable mission within resource constraints provided by NASA Headquarters.  The products developed by the SDT will be used to develop the NASA Science Mission Directorate (SMD) Announcement of Opportunity (AO) that will outline the primary science objectives of the baseline mission and the character of the payload-based investigations solicited under the open competition associated with the AO.  The SDT will be formed in late January 2014 and disbanded after the work is complete, approximately a year later. The joint Venera-D SDT will:

1.     Consider the major science questions about Venus addressed by Venera –D and the Venus Mission, as reported in http://vfm.jpl.nasa.gov/ and identify how the required observations can be obtained in a complementary or supplementary nature from the available and/or proposed platforms and instruments.

2.     Identify which Venus questions are not addressed by the two missions and explore options to obtain the required data.

3.     Submit a report to the two agencies within 12 months following the formal formation of the team.

All reports and output materials of the Venera-D SDT will be made publicly available, and the SDT will be disbanded prior to any future cooperative Announcement of Opportunity (AO) for participation in the Venera-D mission, including provision of instrumentation and investigation support.  Participation in the Venera-D SDT is open to all qualified and interested individuals.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 02/11/2014 09:12 am

February 10, 2014

RELEASE 14-046

NASA and French Space Agency Sign Agreement for Mars Mission

 
NASA Administrator Charles Bolden and Jean-Yves Le Gall, president of the National Center of Space Studies of France (CNES), signed an implementing agreement Monday for cooperation on a future NASA Mars lander called the Interior Exploration Using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy, and Heat Transport (InSight) mission.

"This new agreement strengthens the partnership between NASA and CNES in planetary science research, and builds on more than 20 years of cooperation with CNES on Mars exploration," said Bolden. "The research generated by this collaborative mission will give our agencies more information about the early formation of Mars, which will help us understand more about how Earth evolved."

The InSight mission currently is planned for launch in March 2016 and is scheduled to land on Mars six months later. Designed to study the planet's deep interior, the lander seeks to understand the evolutionary formation of rocky planets, including Earth, by investigating Mars' deep interior. InSight also will investigate the dynamics of Martian tectonic activity and meteorite impacts using CNES's Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure instrument (SEIS).

SEIS will measure seismic waves travelling through the interior of Mars to determine its interior structure and composition, which will provide clues about the processes that shaped the planet during its earliest stages of formation.

Other partners working with CNES on the SEIS instrument include: the German Aerospace Center, United Kingdom Space Agency, Swiss Space Office (through the European Space Agency) and NASA.

InSight's international science team is made up of researchers from Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States.

For more information about SEIS, visit:

http://smsc.cnes.fr/INSIGHT/

For more about InSight, visit:

http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov

For more information about NASA and planetary exploration, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 05/19/2014 09:34 pm

May 19, 2014

Construction to Begin on NASA Mars Lander Scheduled to Launch in 2016


NASA and its international partners now have the go-ahead to begin construction on a new Mars lander after it completed a successful Mission Critical Design Review on Friday.
 
NASA’s Interior Exploration Using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) mission will pierce beneath the Martian surface to study its interior. The mission will investigate how Earth-like planets formed and developed their layered inner structure of core, mantle and crust, and will collect information about those interior zones using instruments never before used on Mars.
 
InSight will launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base, on the central California coast near Lompoc, in March 2016. This will be the first interplanetary mission ever to launch from California. The mission will help inform the agency’s goal of sending a human mission to Mars in the 2030’s.
 
InSight team leaders presented mission-design results this week to a NASA review board, which approved advancing to the next stage of preparation.
 
“Our partners across the globe have made significant progress in getting to this point and are fully prepared to deliver their hardware to system integration starting this November, which is the next major milestone for the project," said Tom Hoffman, InSight Project Manager of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California. "We now move from doing the design and analysis to building and testing the hardware and software that will get us to Mars and collect the science that we need to achieve mission success."
 
To investigate the planet's interior, the stationary lander will carry a robotic arm that will deploy surface and burrowing instruments contributed by France and Germany. The national space agencies of France and Germany -- Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales (CNES) and Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt (DLR) -- are partnering with NASA by providing InSight's two main science instruments.
 
The Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS) will be built by CNES in partnership with DLR and the space agencies of Switzerland and the United Kingdom. It will measure waves of ground motion carried through the interior of the planet, from "marsquakes" and meteor impacts. The Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package, from DLR, will measure heat coming toward the surface from the planet's interior.
 
"Mars actually offers an advantage over Earth itself for understanding how habitable planetary surfaces can form," said Bruce Banerdt, InSight Principal Investigator from JPL. "Both planets underwent the same early processes. But Mars, being smaller, cooled faster and became less active while Earth kept churning. So Mars better preserves the evidence about the early stages of rocky planets' development."
 
The three-legged lander will go to a site near the Martian equator and provide information for a planned mission length of 720 days -- about two years. InSight adapts a design from the successful NASA Phoenix Mars Lander, which examined ice and soil on far-northern Mars in 2008.
 
"We will incorporate many features from our Phoenix spacecraft into InSight, but the differences between the missions require some differences in the InSight spacecraft," said InSight Program Manager Stu Spath of Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company, Denver, Colorado. "For example, the InSight mission duration is 630 days longer than Phoenix, which means the lander will have to endure a wider range of environmental conditions on the surface."
 
Guided by images of the surroundings taken by the lander, InSight's robotic arm will place the seismometer on the surface and then place a protective covering over it to minimize effects of wind and temperature on the sensitive instrument. The arm will also put the heat-flow probe in position to hammer itself into the ground to a depth of 3 to 5 yards (2.7 to 4 1/2 meters).
 
Another experiment will use the radio link between InSight and NASA's Deep Space Network antennas on Earth to precisely measure a wobble in Mars' rotation that could reveal whether Mars has a molten or solid core. Wind and temperature sensors from Spain's Centro de Astrobiologia and a pressure sensor will monitor weather at the landing site, and a magnetometer will measure magnetic disturbances caused by the Martian ionosphere.
 
InSight's international science team is made up of researchers from Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States. JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program of competitively selected mission. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, manages the Discovery Program. Lockheed Martin will build the lander and other parts of the spacecraft at its Littleton, Colorado, facility near Denver.
 
For more about InSight, visit:
 
http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov
 
For more information about Mars missions:
 
http://www.nasa.gov/mars
 
For more about the Discovery Program, visit:
 
http://discovery.nasa.gov
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/20/2014 12:32 am
To some, not as sexy as a rover, but to me it is way more exciting!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/20/2014 08:19 pm
To some, not as sexy as a rover, but to me it is way more exciting!

I'm not going to say it's exciting, but it will check an important box in planetary science. We have not done a seismic mission since Apollo, and those seismometers were ancient technology. This is much more advanced. And once we do this mission it is likely to open up a lot of questions that will lead to new scientific theories and discoveries. It's going to be like shining a light into a dark corner of a room for the first time.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/20/2014 09:21 pm
To some, not as sexy as a rover, but to me it is way more exciting!

I'm not going to say it's exciting, but it will check an important box in planetary science. We have not done a seismic mission since Apollo, and those seismometers were ancient technology. This is much more advanced. And once we do this mission it is likely to open up a lot of questions that will lead to new scientific theories and discoveries. It's going to be like shining a light into a dark corner of a room for the first time.

Definitely agreed.  I remember seismologists comparing NASA's current seismic understanding of Mars to maps of canals on its surface from 100 years ago.  Basically it's only the Earth and Moon we have any details on regarding interior activity; every other body has just inferred hints of details from orbiters with ultrastable oscillator tracking.

Obviously with Mars there's been plenty done with "follow the water" but that's far from sole factor for life.  MAVEN will soon pin down the details of the atmosphere's evolution which leaves finding out the heat source.  I'd be willing to bet with or without atmospheric loss once the volcanoes started to run down the climate became more erratic.  Of course, we simply don't know and scientists have been making educated guesses.

Hopefully InSight will prove as long-lived as the MER rovers, namely so a large database can be established on the Martian interior.  Obviously Phoenix was short-lived due to the polar winter, so it'd be interesting to see how the same design would last under better conditions.

With luck the construction won't take long.  I also wonder if they're still going to add the ISIS secondary payload that's meant to complement the OSIRIS-REX mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/21/2014 12:33 am
I saw a presentation on InSight last week. A couple of take-aways:

-it is launching from Vandenberg. No real reason that I heard except that their Atlas V has excess capacity, so they can. My guess is that getting off of the Cape has benefits. Fewer Vandenberg launches and they will probably get more attention at the range.

-it is landing at the same latitude as another spacecraft on Mars (I think it is Curiosity). This is going to pose some communications problems.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/21/2014 03:02 pm
Sure that's not longitude? That would cause both to be in view of earth ground stations at the same time.

Edit: According to the graphic in this article, it and Curiosity are quite close in latitude and longitude. My eyeball is guessing that is about 300 km of separation. (~10 degrees * 13,000 km / 360)
http://www.space.com/22645-nasa-mars-insight-landing-site-options.html

I suspect they will have to juggle who they talk to when. Especially if using orbiting Mars satellites as a relay.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/21/2014 05:21 pm
I thought it was longitude and it has something to do with the relays, not direct line of sight.

The guy who presented that at MEPAG (you can look up his presentation) said that when he first discussed that with his superiors they said "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" and he replied "I know, but it's not my fault!"

He was pretty funny, actually. Had a funny way of putting down a complaint about the Vandenberg launch site. You would have had to be there.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/21/2014 05:23 pm
Here's the InSight presentation at MEPAG that I referred to.

By the way, he explained that the landing site options were REALLY constrained. That's why they're so close to Curiosity and why it's not his fault. I forget why they were so constrained, but essentially there's not any other place on the planet that they can go for this science and landing terrain. They're stuck with it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: SaxtonHale on 05/22/2014 03:08 am
I thought it was longitude and it has something to do with the relays, not direct line of sight.

Curiosity and InSight would have to split uplink opportunities to the polar orbiters, which would be overhead both at pretty much the same time. ISTM Curiosity will get priority because of the drive-planning tempo and large data volume.

The orbiters are already unable to do as much science over that region because they are busy receiving uplinks, and this will probably only get worse with two missions.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/22/2014 01:23 pm
Curiosity and InSight would have to split uplink opportunities to the polar orbiters, which would be overhead both at pretty much the same time. ISTM Curiosity will get priority because of the drive-planning tempo and large data volume.

Yeah, I can see Curiosity getting priority. But the nature of InSight's data will make that easier--it can sit there recording any seismic data, since Mars is not going to be shaking all the time, and then relay it every so often. Dunno if they might skip days with comms. Then again, it will be more intense early in the mission.

I'd also note that InSight will fly considerably after Curiosity's primary mission is over. But Curiosity is the more important mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/22/2014 01:33 pm
I don't know what will happen with the wheels degradation on Curiosity. But JPL has a tendency to design rovers that slightly outlive their requires mission life.
Btw, now that we see this map of where they can actually land, what would have they done if they had gone with the three stations proposal? Abandon the EDL and move to other design? Retrofit ALHAT? Go nuclear?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/22/2014 11:45 pm
I don't know what will happen with the wheels degradation on Curiosity. But JPL has a tendency to design rovers that slightly outlive their requires mission life.

Somebody discussed Curiosity's wheel condition at MEPAG last week. I don't know if this has been reported, but he said several things:

-they now think that the wear and tear on the wheels is due to both the rover's heavier weight AND a specific kind of terrain that he described as like driving over razor blades sticking out of rocks.

-their first line of defense is to look for that terrain and avoid it if possible.

-if they have to drive over that kind of terrain, they think they know how to minimize the damage.

-Mars 2020 will have different wheels, although they have not developed that design yet.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/22/2014 11:49 pm
Btw, now that we see this map of where they can actually land, what would have they done if they had gone with the three stations proposal? Abandon the EDL and move to other design? Retrofit ALHAT? Go nuclear?

I don't know what restricted them to that small landing site. It might not be the seismic sensor, but might be the heat transfer sensor instead. So maybe they could have taken more sites.

But the restriction has something to do with the kind of rock that they want to access. They think they can only find it at that location.

If I ever run into Banerdt, I'll try to ask him about what he thinks of doing a network and how he would do it knowing what he does now. I won't otherwise bother him by email because my rule of thumb is that if somebody is a PI on a mission in development, they're going to be too busy to respond to email and I should just stay out of their way.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/23/2014 08:24 pm
Btw, now that we see this map of where they can actually land, what would have they done if they had gone with the three stations proposal? Abandon the EDL and move to other design? Retrofit ALHAT? Go nuclear?

I don't know what restricted them to that small landing site. It might not be the seismic sensor, but might be the heat transfer sensor instead. So maybe they could have taken more sites.

But the restriction has something to do with the kind of rock that they want to access. They think they can only find it at that location.

If I ever run into Banerdt, I'll try to ask him about what he thinks of doing a network and how he would do it knowing what he does now. I won't otherwise bother him by email because my rule of thumb is that if somebody is a PI on a mission in development, they're going to be too busy to respond to email and I should just stay out of their way.
From the presentation, between the EDL, the need for all through the year solar power and thermal environment they had just two places with MOLA<2.5km AND Lat {5N,3N}. And one was the Valis Marineris, that was considered risky to land and the winds would affect power. And this was even before the inclination and rock formations limitations of the landing system and the soil type for the instruments.
Since seismic stations are better spread very far away to be able to study deeper, it would seem that for a network the only options would be a different EDL or an RTG. I know RTG are expensive, but three ARSG should have proven a nice debut. And I guess they could have bundled the three crafts in a single Atlas 551.
BTW, I don't want to sound like a fanboi, but if Red Dragon could actually do MOLA<-1.5km, like they said, and integrate with ALHAT for rocky terrain, the network might be done for about 1B including launches. I just want a lunar and a martian seismic network. But that's because I believe that it's one of the few areas that might improve oil prospecting and thus have a direct and tangible effect on Earth's economy.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/24/2014 06:57 am
Here's an image from the Cerberus proposal. I'll see if I have the whole slide set here and I'll post it.

JPL did not approve this proposal to go ahead as one of their New Frontiers proposals. Presumably that was because they thought there was no way to get it inside the cost cap.

By the way, if you want to have some fun, go read the thread from September 2012 called "What Next After MSL." Compare that to what is happening today (skip John F's posts).

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/24/2014 07:05 am
We probably need a dedicated Mars 2020 thread...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/25/2014 03:31 am
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/25/2014 03:33 am
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/25/2014 03:34 am
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/25/2014 01:00 pm
Thank you Blackstar! It does seems from C10-page-006, that the InSight technology would have prevented them from landing where they needed to. If we are right with this, then doing InSight will have been an extremely wise decision. But there must be a lesson here about EDL restrictions and mission analysis wrt to the authorization of the rest of the expenditure. Not only for Mars but Europa, and probably Titan and the Moon. The latter case because of polar/equatorial delta-v budgets, comm and soil type restrictions. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/25/2014 03:59 pm
The other issue I saw is data rate. They assumed 50mbps to 100Mbps per sol. So InSight should have 1/3 or less of that. Nut we don't know the event rate.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/25/2014 07:29 pm
And here's a feature article on the hardware for the InSight mission, via Marshall Murphy:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/05/insight-into-nasas-mars-lander/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: robertross on 05/27/2014 01:56 am
Great read Marshall. Thanks.

To be honest, I'm not feeling any great 'vibe' about the science goals of this mission.
I guess I'll have to think more on it.
Maybe I'm used to more challenging missions from NASA.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/27/2014 02:33 am
I feel very differently. I'm pretty excited about it. I think not only that it will answer some of the most fundamental questions, but has potential to teach us quite a few thing about the Earth and improve oil and mineral prospecting.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/27/2014 11:56 am
and improve oil and mineral prospecting.

I don't see how it can do that.

It is highly doubtful that there are petrochemical deposits on Mars. That would require a very active biosphere over a very long time.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/27/2014 01:50 pm
and improve oil and mineral prospecting.

I don't see how it can do that.

It is highly doubtful that there are petrochemical deposits on Mars. That would require a very active biosphere over a very long time.
I mean on Earth. This missions gives you insight in what you don't know about Earth mantle and core because they are the only ones you know. If you've never gone to England or Japan you might not even be aware that people can drive on the other side (brute example). Also, new techniques might need to be developed for analysis, that might generate an improvement in our own understanding of Earth.
I have the theory that looking at different planetary internal has a lot of potential for the development of our own models.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 05/27/2014 02:52 pm
and improve oil and mineral prospecting.

I don't see how it can do that.

It is highly doubtful that there are petrochemical deposits on Mars. That would require a very active biosphere over a very long time.
I mean on Earth. This missions gives you insight in what you don't know about Earth mantle and core because they are the only ones you know. If you've never gone to England or Japan you might not even be aware that people can drive on the other side (brute example). Also, new techniques might need to be developed for analysis, that might generate an improvement in our own understanding of Earth.
I have the theory that looking at different planetary internal has a lot of potential for the development of our own models.

This mission is first & foremost to learn about the internals of Mars, of course there will be some comparative analysis against the Earth but that is to go without saying.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/27/2014 06:57 pm
I'm no scientist, but I do hang out with a lot of them and I'm pretty good at picking up general ideas and principles, and I don't possess many of the biases inherent in their fields. The way space science works in most cases is that it contributes to the general body of knowledge and theory, but rarely has direct applications to existing terrestrial problems. So it sort of reforms the edges of the field, but it won't help with specific problems (like finding oil).

A few weeks ago at the MEPAG meeting somebody started a discussion of Mars science in perspective. They noted that until recently, you could conduct all the Mars science discussion at a single annual Mars science conference, but that it now requires two conferences. So Mars is at the annual two-conference level, and Mars is the most studied planet in our solar system after Earth.

But that's nothing compared to Earth, where there are HUNDREDS of Earth science conferences each year. There are thousands more scientists studying terrestrial science than there are studying planetary science.

So even major discoveries in planetary science are going to have a relatively minimal impact on terrestrial scientific issues, if only because there's so much more terrestrial science going on and so much more terrestrial data available.

This is something that planetary scientists often lose sight of. They operate in their own bubbles, going primarily to planetary science conferences and not interacting with the larger terrestrial scientific community all that often. (There are exceptions, like the annual American Geophysical Union conference, but even there planetary science is a small part of the conference and they spend much of their time talking to themselves.) I've experienced this when dealing with scientists who study the atmospheres of Venus and other planets. They often try to make the argument that understanding them will help understand climate change on Earth. But that's an argument that very quickly gets shot down by the terrestrial climate change science community, which notes that they have tons and tons of data on Earth's climate and so adding a few observations of Venus into the mix won't change anything.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Paul Howard on 06/03/2014 05:19 pm
And here's a feature article on the hardware for the InSight mission, via Marshall Murphy:

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/05/insight-into-nasas-mars-lander/


Anything that gets us closer to Mars is a good thing!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 06/25/2014 09:23 am
News Release Issued: Jun 24, 2014 (11:49am EDT)


ATK Awarded Contract to Provide UltraFlex Solar Arrays for Upcoming Mars InSight Mission

UltraFlex Solar Arrays Will Provide All Electrical Power for InSight Lander

Array Passed Critical Design Review and is Now in Production
 
ARLINGTON, Va., June 24, 2014 /PRNewswire/ -- ATK (NYSE: ATK) received a contract from Lockheed Martin Space Systems to provide the UltraFlex solar arrays for NASA's InSight Lander mission, which will place a lander on Mars in 2016 to study the red planet's deep interior. The mission will give us a better understanding of the processes that shaped the rocky planets of the inner solar system, including Earth, more than four billion years ago.


"UltraFlex is known for the unique round fan-fold design that enables much higher performance than typical spacecraft solar arrays," said David Shanahan, vice president and general manager of ATK's Space Components division. "With spacecraft facing increasingly ambitious low-mass and constrained packaging requirements, ATK's arrays deliver all the power our customers need with this enabling technology."

The UltraFlex design successfully passed critical design review in February 2014. ATK is now fabricating the InSight arrays for testing later this year and delivery in 2015.

The design is based on the array that powered the successful Mars Phoenix Lander in 2008. Similar versions of the UltraFlex design are being used for Orbital Science's Commercial Resupply System (CRS) spacecraft; the first of many CRS UltraFlex arrays are planned to be flown later this year on CRS.

A larger, higher-power evolution of UltraFlex, called MegaFlex, has recently completed development testing at NASA's Plum Brook Station. MegaFlex was designed for high-power spacecraft such as those using future solar electric propulsion systems being developed by NASA for deep space exploration missions, including the Asteroid Redirect Mission.

InSight, an abbreviation for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport, will use sophisticated geophysical instruments to delve deep beneath the surface of Mars, detecting the fingerprints of the processes of terrestrial planet formation, as well as measuring the planet's "vital signs" – its "pulse" (seismology), "temperature" (heat flow probe) and "reflexes" (precision tracking).

InSight is managed by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology, for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. Lockheed Martin will build and operate the spacecraft.


Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 10/13/2014 06:37 pm
New tweet from Emily Lakdawalla

https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/521726091027685376

Quote
A mockup of @NASAInSight with a working engineering model of robotic arm, which will place 1st seismometer on Mars

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 10/13/2014 08:07 pm
Sweet update!  InSight might be a simple mission compared to Curiosity, but we've been needing a solid look into the Martian core especially if we want answers on it's past.  MAVEN and InSight will complement each other well in terms of helping answer the deep history of Mars: the lifetime of the atmosphere and lifetime of the core.  Both are the deciding factors of how long Mars was habitable.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 11/17/2014 07:29 pm
Lockheed Martin Begins Final Assembly Of NASA's Next Mars Lander

Date: 17-Nov-2014 3:16 PM

InSight Mars Lander Starts Taking Shape in Clean Room

DENVER, Nov. 17, 2014 - Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] has started the assembly, test and launch operations (ATLO) phase for NASA's InSight Mars lander spacecraft. The InSight mission will record the first-ever measurements of the interior of the red planet, giving scientists unprecedented detail into the evolution of Mars and other terrestrial planets. InSight is scheduled to launch in March 2016.

A critical stage in the program, ATLO is when assembly of the spacecraft starts, moves through environmental testing and concludes with its launch. Over the next six months, technicians will install subsystems such as avionics, power, telecomm, mechanisms, thermal systems, and guidance, navigation and control. Science instruments will also be delivered by the mission partners to Lockheed Martin for integration with the spacecraft.

In addition to the lander, the spacecraft's protective aeroshell capsule and cruise stage (which provides communications, power and propellant during the journey to Mars) are also undergoing assembly and testing alongside the lander. Once the spacecraft has been fully assembled, it will undergo rigorous environmental testing in the summer of 2015.

"The InSight mission is a mix of tried-and-true and new-and-exciting. The spacecraft has a lot of heritage from Phoenix and even back to the Viking landers, but the science has never been done before at Mars," said Stu Spath, InSight program manager at Lockheed Martin Space Systems. "Physically, InSight looks very much like the Phoenix lander we built, but most of the electronic components are similar to what is currently flying on the MAVEN spacecraft."

InSight stands for "Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport" and it is more than a Mars mission. This NASA Discovery-class mission is a terrestrial planet explorer that will address one of the most fundamental issues of planetary and solar system science; understanding the processes that shaped the rocky planets of the inner solar system (including Earth) more than four billion years ago.

The InSight mission is led by Bruce Banerdt of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL). The science team includes U.S. and international co-investigators from universities, industry and government agencies. The German Aerospace Center (DLR) and the French space agency (CNES) are also each contributing an instrument to the two-year scientific mission.

Along with providing an onboard geodetic instrument to determine the planet's rotation axis, plus a robotic arm and two cameras used to deploy and monitor instruments on the Martian surface, JPL performs project management for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, manages the overall Discovery Program for the agency's Science Mission Directorate in Washington.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/18/2014 01:41 pm
Here's an article on the above :)

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/11/lockheed-martin-alto-phase-mars-insight-lander/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lee Jay on 11/18/2014 01:45 pm
Can't wait.  Thanks for the article.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: tesla on 11/18/2014 02:00 pm
" Once the spacecraft has been fully assembled, it will undergo rigorous environmental testing in the summer of 2015. "

NOW this is very impressive too. Honestly, this is incredible to my eyes. Just a few years ago a mars mission was something unique and extremely complicated. Today Lockheed seems to build mars landers like comsats.  ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JasonAW3 on 11/18/2014 03:27 pm
Geez,

     As expensive as these missions to Mars are getting, it'd almost be cheaper to send a single pilot trained Geologist to Mars and back for the same costs.

     Of course that WOULD be one way of getting people on Mars.  They might be cheaper to fly than future robots!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 11/18/2014 06:00 pm
Geez,

     As expensive as these missions to Mars are getting, it'd almost be cheaper to send a single pilot trained Geologist to Mars and back for the same costs.

     Of course that WOULD be one way of getting people on Mars.  They might be cheaper to fly than future robots!
I would argue that they will do more geology in a day than a rover can do in a week. But Congress disagrees on this point, hence no bucks for Geo Rogers!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 11/18/2014 06:19 pm
Geez,

     As expensive as these missions to Mars are getting, it'd almost be cheaper to send a single pilot trained Geologist to Mars and back for the same costs.

     Of course that WOULD be one way of getting people on Mars.  They might be cheaper to fly than future robots!
I would argue that they will do more geology in a day than a rover can do in a week. But Congress disagrees on this point, hence no bucks for Geo Rogers!

No point sending dirty humans to do InSight's job. Short setup followed by autonomous data collection.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: The Amazing Catstronaut on 11/18/2014 06:25 pm
Send humans once the world can definitively prove to Congress that the first man on Mars isn't going to undergo an Unplanned Rapid Disassembly/Fit of Space Dementia with the Space Gatling Gun they've packed on the rover for some reason/Get infected with Mars Zombie Flu or something. That's when the USA can finally stop sending drones to do a human's job.

But seriously, landing on mars is still a tricky, failure prone business. Right now, lets just wait for the 2020's when stuff really gets exciting.

Ontopic: It'll be interesting to see if that seismometer tells us anything new about any past tectonic activity which may have occurred on mars. I'm curious to see just how geologically active our pint-sized neighbour was in its livelier days.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/18/2014 07:44 pm
I'm hoping for lots and lots of Marsquakes.

It would make things really interesting.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 11/18/2014 07:53 pm
It's obviously taking too much in the future, but I seem to rememeber that InSight can only land on a very particular spot on Mars. When you look for a place low enough for the EDL to work, close enough to the equator to actually get enough power through winter, with a soil with little chance of hitting a boulder but soft enough to drill and actually listen to the seismic activity, they only got a single place. If they find something so interesting that it is worth to do a follow on mission (I.e. Three landers like the original Cerberus mission), they'll need a new EDL.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/18/2014 08:57 pm
It's obviously taking too much in the future, but I seem to rememeber that InSight can only land on a very particular spot on Mars. When you look for a place low enough for the EDL to work, close enough to the equator to actually get enough power through winter, with a soil with little chance of hitting a boulder but soft enough to drill and actually listen to the seismic activity, they only got a single place. If they find something so interesting that it is worth to do a follow on mission (I.e. Three landers like the original Cerberus mission), they'll need a new EDL.

Well, if they find stuff that is really interesting, that could put a Mars seismic mission in the running for a future New Frontiers mission in the next decade. And it is possible that an RTG could be in the mix too. That could open up the landing site options.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: enkarha on 11/19/2014 02:32 am
It's obviously taking too much in the future, but I seem to rememeber that InSight can only land on a very particular spot on Mars. When you look for a place low enough for the EDL to work, close enough to the equator to actually get enough power through winter, with a soil with little chance of hitting a boulder but soft enough to drill and actually listen to the seismic activity, they only got a single place. If they find something so interesting that it is worth to do a follow on mission (I.e. Three landers like the original Cerberus mission), they'll need a new EDL.

They are being conservative. I think that's because it's not looking at any particular mountain or riverbed, but the whole planet, so there's no point in anything but the safest option with the widest margins. If they really really wanted, they could probably find a spot in Meridiani Planum and maybe in Isidis Planitia. But hey, maybe not. Anyhow, while trying to make some point here I learned a bunch of stuff about how they figure out if a place on Mars is rocky and/or fluffy dust, so here are some papers.
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2013/pdf/1691.pdf
http://www.mars.asu.edu/christensen/docs/Christensen_Icarus_1986.pdf
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 11/20/2014 01:44 pm
Last I had heard was that InSight didn't have the budget for a color camera but that they were still hopeful that they may be able to find a way to include one.  Does the beginning of the final assembly mean now that InSight will not be flying with a color camera?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: SaxtonHale on 01/10/2015 06:12 pm
Mars Cube One (MarCO) to launch with InSight

Quote from: tweet
MarCO is a 6U CubeSat Mars flyby mission to provide communications for the Mars InSight mission during its landing phase
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553313714632286208)

Quote from: tweet
MarCO needed because MRO, MAVEN, and Mars Odyssey will not be in position to receive InSight data.
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553314022343204864)

Quote from: tweet
Depending on remaining fuel, MarCO craft may continue on to visit a small body.
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553314523906461697)


No story yet, but the header image on the JPL Cubesat (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cubesat/) site makes it look like there are two or more cubesats, not just the one mentioned
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/11/2015 01:20 am
BIRDY maybe?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 01/11/2015 01:35 am
Mars Cube One (MarCO) to launch with InSight

Quote from: tweet
MarCO is a 6U CubeSat Mars flyby mission to provide communications for the Mars InSight mission during its landing phase
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553313714632286208)

Quote from: tweet
MarCO needed because MRO, MAVEN, and Mars Odyssey will not be in position to receive InSight data.
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553314022343204864)

Quote from: tweet
Depending on remaining fuel, MarCO craft may continue on to visit a small body.
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553314523906461697)


No story yet, but the header image on the JPL Cubesat (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cubesat/) site makes it look like there are two or more cubesats, not just the one mentioned

BIRDY maybe?

Quote from: Paul Wren twitter post
Paul Wren ‏@ElevenPointTwo  5h5 hours ago
@Skyrocket71 MarCO will be two CubeSats, hitching a ride on @NASAInSight launch vehicle
link (https://twitter.com/ElevenPointTwo/status/553314523906461697)


Will be interesting to see if the 6U cubesats survive the passage to Mars. Or get fry by cosmic radiation.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kato on 01/11/2015 02:28 am
Are these the subpayload that was tendered out for proposals by NASA to replace something like 150 kg ballast?

Edit: This one - http://www.nasa.gov/solve/marsbalancechallenge/

(in addition: will there be a similar-sized payload for entry, since I believe NASA was looking for something there too?)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 01/11/2015 06:59 am

Will be interesting to see if the 6U cubesats survive the passage to Mars. Or get fry by cosmic radiation.

Work has been done on the requirements.

http://kiss.caltech.edu/workshops/smallsat2012b/presentations/lightsey.pdf
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: savuporo on 01/11/2015 07:19 am

Will be interesting to see if the 6U cubesats survive the passage to Mars. Or get fry by cosmic radiation.

Work has been done on the requirements.

http://kiss.caltech.edu/workshops/smallsat2012b/presentations/lightsey.pdf

JPL has had Team Xc (  team X of Cubesats they call it ) furiously working on this and related concepts for ~2 years. http://intercubesat.org/ in April should be interesting.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 01/12/2015 08:21 am
Are these the subpayload that was tendered out for proposals by NASA to replace something like 150 kg ballast?

Edit: This one - http://www.nasa.gov/solve/marsbalancechallenge/

(in addition: will there be a similar-sized payload for entry, since I believe NASA was looking for something there too?)

That challenge is for payloads to be ejected from the EDL package itself.

These appear to carried on/released from the Centaur.  Not terribly surprising considering how much Atlas V overperforms for the given launch mass of InSIGHT.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 01/12/2015 10:06 pm
For quite awhile there has been talk about putting a secondary on this mission. I think that the main thing people were talking about was an impactor that would hit the asteroid that OSIRIS-REx is going to. However, that would require some serious money, and I never got any sense that NASA had the money to spend on it. CubeSats make more sense--a bit. But CubeSats that can operate anyplace other than LEO quickly cost real money. So I have my doubts that they can do this. Budgets are really tight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ThereIWas3 on 01/14/2015 06:10 pm
Hayabusa2 contains a sub-vehicle kind of like a cubesat, but very specialized.  It is a 40cm cube that will be dropped onto the target asteroid when Hayabusa gets there.  Once on the surface it can even flip itself right side up by moving an internal weight.

Hayabusa2 also contains an impactor.   In 2010 the Hayabusa2 mission was forecast to cost 16.4 billion Yen (about $160 million at the time).  I do not have any more recent information on cost.  Of course, Hayabusa2 does not have to do an EDL.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kato on 01/14/2015 09:26 pm
Hayabusa2 contains a sub-vehicle kind of like a cubesat, but very specialized.  It is a 40cm cube that will be dropped onto the target asteroid when Hayabusa gets there.
MASCOT will only operate for 12-16 hours because it's running on batteries. The three Minerva-IIA/B hoppers carried will hopefully operate quite a bit longer on solar power. They're small cans of 2x 1.6 kg (A) and 2.5 kg (B) respectively with onboard cameras. Could probably pack the exact same equipment in a 1U cubesat actually.

Hayabusa 2 additionally to those four self-propelled payloads carries seven unpropelled payloads btw: the SCI impactor system (that's actually more like an anti-tank mine in operation; about 10 kg) which it drops before moving into safety behind the asteroid; the DCAM3 free-flying camera which will observe SCI while it fires its EFP warhead; and five targeting spheres that are dropped on the asteroid so that Hayabusa has some standard reference points to navigate with when moving down to suck up settled ejecta from the impact.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 02/04/2015 12:08 pm
"For quite awhile there has been talk about putting a secondary on this mission. I think that the main thing people were talking about was an impactor that would hit the asteroid that OSIRIS-REx is going to. However, that would require some serious money, and I never got any sense that NASA had the money to spend on it. ... Budgets are really tight."

And Insight has already busted their Discovery cap as predicted.  Looking at FY16 budget request data and aligning back to FY10 dollars shows Insight costing $594M versus the mission cap of $425M or 40% cost growth.  I think my prediction then was $550M minimum and $600M likely.  Another case of JPL's inability to operate to a fixed budget.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 02/04/2015 04:29 pm

And Insight has already busted their Discovery cap as predicted.  Looking at FY16 budget request data and aligning back to FY10 dollars shows Insight costing $594M versus the mission cap of $425M or 40% cost growth.  I think my prediction then was $550M minimum and $600M likely.  Another case of JPL's inability to operate to a fixed budget.

Does that budget line break out the spacecraft portion separately? The $425M is the PI's budget and doesn't include the launch vehicle ($160M in this case), misc. HQ support, etc.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 02/26/2015 05:26 pm
From the InSight presentation at MEPAG yesterday.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 02/26/2015 05:28 pm
Here are some of the presentation slides on InSight landing site selection.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 02/27/2015 07:23 am
So safe to say E9/E17 is the default landing site, barring unexpected hazards found by further input via MRO?  Looking at how close all 4 ellipses are to each other it seems redundant to say they're really separate sites...then again that's only from a global perspective.  If the landscape is any indication, I'm guessing when InSight images come to the public, they'll resemble a blander version of Pathfinder's seeing the variety of craters a safe distance away.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: RonM on 02/28/2015 02:00 pm
Blackstar, thanks for adding the presentation slides.

The Insight website doesn't mention APSS in the instruments. I thought it was strange to send a lander without a weather station, especially since atmospheric conditions will have an impact on the data. Looks APSS will do the job. I guess they just wanted to show off the flashy primary instruments.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Bob Shaw on 02/28/2015 02:20 pm
Hayabusa2 contains a sub-vehicle kind of like a cubesat, but very specialized.  It is a 40cm cube that will be dropped onto the target asteroid when Hayabusa gets there.  Once on the surface it can even flip itself right side up by moving an internal weight.

Hayabusa2 also contains an impactor.   In 2010 the Hayabusa2 mission was forecast to cost 16.4 billion Yen (about $160 million at the time).  I do not have any more recent information on cost.  Of course, Hayabusa2 does not have to do an EDL.

No EDL on Hayabusa? There certainly is one planned!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 02/28/2015 05:35 pm

Banerdt briefly mentioned the weather station, but the only thing I can remember him saying is that it will be the best one on Mars. I'm not very familiar with what Curiosity has, but I think it is rudimentary.
My understanding is that msl has a capable weather station.  InSight needs to determine how much seismic noise comes from wind, temperature, and pressure changes so it's instruments may be more sensitive
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ThereIWas3 on 02/28/2015 06:39 pm

No EDL on Hayabusa? There certainly is one planned!

No "entry" because no atmosphere, which is the difficult part.  What Hayabusa does is more of a "rendezvous".
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kch on 02/28/2015 06:48 pm

No EDL on Hayabusa? There certainly is one planned!

No "entry" because no atmosphere, which is the difficult part.  What Hayabusa does is more of a "rendezvous".

Not much of a "sample return mission" if it doesn't "return" (to Earth, which *does* have an atmosphere, and *will* involve an EDL).  ;)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 02/28/2015 07:57 pm
That's reentry, not "entry." :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kch on 02/28/2015 08:10 pm
That's reentry, not "entry." :)

;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/01/2015 07:13 pm
I'm hoping there could be future seismic missions to complement InSight.  They speak confidently about being able to use a single station to gather many details about the interior, but naturally with more stations a larger network can be established.  I'd like to see landers cubesat-sized helping out.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 03/01/2015 07:19 pm
I'm hoping there could be future seismic missions to complement InSight.  They speak confidently about being able to use a single station to gather many details about the interior, but naturally with more stations a larger network can be established.  I'd like to see landers cubesat-sized helping out.
I doubt you can add valuable science for less complexit than InSight-like stations. AIUI, they'll first see the data of InSight. If it shows a lot of quakes and a pretty interesting stream of science, then, something like Cerberus might get proposed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/01/2015 07:54 pm
I'm hoping there could be future seismic missions to complement InSight.  They speak confidently about being able to use a single station to gather many details about the interior, but naturally with more stations a larger network can be established.  I'd like to see landers cubesat-sized helping out.
I doubt you can add valuable science for less complexit than InSight-like stations. AIUI, they'll first see the data of InSight. If it shows a lot of quakes and a pretty interesting stream of science, then, something like Cerberus might get proposed.

Given the extreme lack of data on deep Mars, almost anything helps.  As long as it's intact, stuck in the ground, and can relay the info back it'd help.  Deep Space 2 could have been a good example but it wasn't managed so well.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: the_other_Doug on 03/01/2015 08:42 pm
And of the two previous seismometers landed on Mars (one each on the Viking landers), one failed to uncage and the other, mounted as it was onto the lander itself, failed to return any data that you could say for sure wasn't wind effects on the lander.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 03/02/2015 02:19 am
There are different levels of seismometers.  InSight carries the best and most sensitive type.  There are proposals for seismometers that are closer to geophones that would miss the subtle signals but that could triangulate the strong signals from several small landers.  Check out for example Malin's proposed Dandelion lander. It's summarized on my most recent post.  Futureplanets.blogspot.com
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/02/2015 05:45 am
There are different levels of seismometers.  InSight carries the best and most sensitive type.  There are proposals for seismometers that are closer to geophones that would miss the subtle signals but that could triangulate the strong signals from several small landers.  Check out for example Malin's proposed Dandelion lander. It's summarized on my most recent post.  Futureplanets.blogspot.com

I see it here: https://marscubesatworkshop.jpl.nasa.gov/static/files/presentation/Svitek-Tomas/dandelion.pdf (https://marscubesatworkshop.jpl.nasa.gov/static/files/presentation/Svitek-Tomas/dandelion.pdf)

Might be nice to develop.  I wish they elaborated more on the instruments (most obviously the seismometer).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/05/2015 04:08 pm
Interesting article certainly sounds like they've had more than a few issues during its construction & even its possible landing site is not without issues communication wise.

http://spaceflightnow.com/2015/03/04/crunch-time-next-mars-lander-enters-final-year-before-launch/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/05/2015 05:33 pm
You can see some specifics on the "Status" slide that I posted. Lots of instruments late.

Banerdt has always been more open about his work than some others, so he should be applauded for admitting the issues. Let's hope that they can keep inside the box.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/05/2015 08:24 pm

You can see some specifics on the "Status" slide that I posted. Lots of instruments late.

Banerdt has always been more open about his work than some others, so he should be applauded for admitting the issues. Let's hope that they can keep inside the box.

They sounded genuinely surprised about the arm not working as expected considering its legacy technology.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/05/2015 11:41 pm
Banerdt also said that the arm turned out to be less "legacy" than they expected. This is a classic problem with spacecraft and it is why there really can be no such thing as "mass production" of science spacecraft. By the time you get around to building another one, either vendors have gone out of business or they no longer produce the parts that they did the last time. So InSight called up the vendor and said "We want some parts to an arm like you produced back in 1998" and the engineer on the other end of the phone says "I was in grade school in 1998. I don't think we produce any of that stuff anymore."

That was in fact one of the issues with Curiosity leading into Mars 2020--they wanted to get a go-ahead on the new rover soon enough so that they would not face parts obsolescence and supply issues. They probably still will for some things because Curiosity was being designed and built 10 years ago. But they will have fewer issues like that to face.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/28/2015 01:37 am
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 05/28/2015 06:38 am
May 27, 2015
RELEASE 15-106
NASA Begins Testing Mars Lander in Preparation for Next Mission to Red Planet

Testing is underway on NASA’s next mission on the journey to Mars, a stationary lander scheduled to launch in March 2016.

The lander is called InSight, an abbreviation for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport. It is about the size of a car and will be the first mission devoted to understanding the interior structure of the Red Planet. Examining the planet's deep interior could reveal clues about how all rocky planets, including Earth, formed and evolved.

The current testing will help ensure InSight can operate in and survive deep space travel and the harsh conditions of the Martian surface. The spacecraft will lift off from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, and land on Mars about six months later.

The technical capabilities and knowledge gained from Insight, and other Mars missions, are crucial to NASA's journey to Mars, which includes sending astronauts to the Red Planet in the 2030s.

"Today, our robotic scientific explorers are paving the way, making great progress on the journey to Mars," said Jim Green, director of NASA's Planetary Science Division at the agency's headquarters in Washington. "Together, humans and robotics will pioneer Mars and the solar system."

During the environmental testing phase at Lockheed Martin's Space Systems facility near Denver, the lander will be exposed to extreme temperatures, vacuum conditions of nearly zero air pressure simulating interplanetary space, and a battery of other tests over the next seven months. The first will be a thermal vacuum test in the spacecraft's "cruise" configuration, which will be used during its seven-month journey to Mars. In the cruise configuration, the lander is stowed inside an aeroshell capsule and the spacecraft's cruise stage – for power, communications, course corrections and other functions on the way to Mars -- is fastened to the capsule.

"The assembly of InSight went very well and now it's time to see how it performs," said Stu Spath, InSight program manager at Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver. "The environmental testing regimen is designed to wring out any issues with the spacecraft so we can resolve them while it's here on Earth. This phase takes nearly as long as assembly, but we want to make sure we deliver a vehicle to NASA that will perform as expected in extreme environments."

Other tests include vibrations simulating launch and checking for electronic interference between different parts of the spacecraft.  The testing phase concludes with a second thermal vacuum test in which the spacecraft is exposed to the temperatures and atmospheric pressures it will experience as it operates on the Martian surface.

The mission's science team includes U.S. and international co-investigators from universities, industry and government agencies.

"It's great to see the spacecraft put together in its launch configuration," said InSight Project Manager Tom Hoffman at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California. "Many teams from across the globe have worked long hours to get their elements of the system delivered for these tests. There still remains much work to do before we are ready for launch, but it is fantastic to get to this critical milestone."
 
The InSight mission is led by JPL's Bruce Banerdt. The Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales, France’s space agency, and the German Aerospace Center are each contributing a science instrument to the two-year scientific mission. InSight's international science team includes researchers from Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, managed by the agency’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company built the lander.

For addition information about the mission, visit:

http://insight.jpl.nasa.gov

More information about NASA's journey to Mars is available online at:

https://www.nasa.gov/topics/journeytomars
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/28/2015 12:31 pm
Article for assembly complete:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/05/insight-mars-lander-ahead-2016-launch/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/28/2015 09:19 pm
Good to hear that InSight is nearly finished.  Have the French instruments been integrated too?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JBF on 06/01/2015 01:51 am
Has anyone seen something official on the landing sequence of events?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 06/01/2015 02:00 am
Has anyone seen something official on the landing sequence of events?

Well, I would say it's safe to assume it will be more-or-less identical to that of Phoenix.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JBF on 06/01/2015 02:40 am
Has anyone seen something official on the landing sequence of events?

Well, I would say it's safe to assume it will be more-or-less identical to that of Phoenix.

Good point.  Here is a link to the NASA animation of the Phoenix landing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_QndDGc82Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_QndDGc82Y)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jon.amos on 07/06/2015 04:26 pm
Some low res pictures of ALTO phase of the solar panels for this mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 07/29/2015 06:33 am
Although it's over a half-year away, preparations are being made even at Mars for InSight.  MRO is apparently going to cover its landing; on several sites they announced there's going to be a thruster firing to adjust the orbiter's path; apparently it means changing it from a sun-synched 3 pm afternoon observation to 2:30 pm.  I can only presume without the adjustment it would have meant MRO would have been just beyond the limb of Mars relative to the descending InSight.

I'm actually a little psyched for InSight, largely since it will do something different and as significant as the rock imagery from the rovers.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: TheFallen on 08/19/2015 01:14 am
Send your name to Mars aboard the NASA InSight lander:

http://mars.nasa.gov/participate/send-your-name/insight/

The deadline is September 8 (midnight, ET)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/09/2015 02:24 am
Any news when the ALTO work on Insight at the Lockheed-Martin Denver location will be completed?  Where do they now stand in the process?

Is there an estimated time for shipment to Vandenberg for launch?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/03/2015 09:27 am
(http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_feature/public/thumbnails/image/pia19812_20150529_insight_prep_for_cruise_tvac3.jpg?itok=ltaOhaTt)

InSight's now fully assembled and undergoing a batch of preflight testing.  There seems to be optimism it'll launch on schedule and just fine during March for a landing on Mars 6 months later in September.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jevans on 11/27/2015 03:18 pm
In a meeting this morning I was told there's some significant doubt growing that InSight is going to be ready for launch next year - problematic instrument integration being the cause.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/27/2015 06:52 pm
In a meeting this morning I was told there's some significant doubt growing that InSight is going to be ready for launch next year - problematic instrument integration being the cause.
That would be a very serious ouch.  The cost of keeping the team assembled for two years could well prevent NASA from selecting two Discovery missions from the current competition and fall back to one.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/28/2015 12:26 am
In a meeting this morning I was told there's some significant doubt growing that InSight is going to be ready for launch next year - problematic instrument integration being the cause.

Did you hear which of the instruments were causing trouble?  I can only assume either the heat-probe or the seisometer, since the antenna setup (for monitoring how Mars wobbles) would seem to be a simpler affair.  I do hope this gets wrapped up and on schedule; this is the first for deep geology on Mars.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/28/2015 12:40 am
It's the French one, whatever that one is. They had a problem with leaking seals, had to send it back to France.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Graham on 11/28/2015 01:02 am
It's the French one, whatever that one is. They had a problem with leaking seals, had to send it back to France.
It's SEIS, the seismometer.
This worrisome news. Any idea what reprecussions this could have in the next Discovery mission?

In a meeting this morning I was told there's some significant doubt growing that InSight is going to be ready for launch next year - problematic instrument integration being the cause.
That would be a very serious ouch.  The cost of keeping the team assembled for two years could well prevent NASA from selecting two Discovery missions from the current competition and fall back to one.
Even if InSight went off without a hitch I wouldn't expect the selection of two missions (AFAIK this hasn't happened in the history of the program). Or are you referring to the down select for more advanced study that typically occurs during the selection phase?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/28/2015 01:21 am
Even if InSight went off without a hitch I wouldn't expect the selection of two missions (AFAIK this hasn't happened in the history of the program). Or are you referring to the down select for more advanced study that typically occurs during the selection phase?
In the early phase of the Discovery program, two missions were commonly selected.  NASA has said that it is considering selecting two from the finalists, and if so, they would push out the start of the next competition.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Nomadd on 11/28/2015 03:03 am
 Is the seismometer worth a 2 year delay?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/28/2015 03:05 am
Is the seismometer worth a 2 year delay?
It is the heart of the mission.  I can't imagine the mission would have been selected without it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 11/28/2015 03:33 am
Not to mention leaving it out would require a whole slew of other modifications. Mass and power budgets, to name two.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/28/2015 04:35 am
Is the seismometer worth a 2 year delay?
It is the heart of the mission.  I can't imagine the mission would have been selected without it.

TPTB could just cut their losses and cancel the mission, maybe re-purpose the functional hardware for another mission(s). This is one way of getting 2 new Discovery missions. Since the cost overrun from delaying the Insight mission to the next launch window will mostly likely sacrificing at least one new Discovery mission. :(
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 11/28/2015 04:42 am
We should probably wait at least few days/weeks before proclaiming all is lost, though...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/28/2015 04:47 am
We should probably wait at least few days/weeks before proclaiming all is lost, though...
I completely agree.  NASA and JPL have incredible technical skills and they will recognize what's at stake.  For anyone who's read a book on the design of a planetary mission or complex instrument (the InSight seismometer certainly counts as the latter) near death experiences followed by disciplined recoveries seem to be routine.  What will happen with InSight will be determined by extremely seasoned professionals.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 11/28/2015 04:48 am
We should probably wait at least few days/weeks before proclaiming all is lost, though...
I completely agree.  NASA and JPL have incredible technical skills and they will recognize what's at stake.  For anyone who's read a book on the design of a planetary mission or complex instrument (the InSight seismometer certainly counts as the latter) near death experiences followed by disciplined recoveries seem to be routine.  What will happen with InSight will be determined by extremely seasoned professionals.

I... didn't actually know there were books about planetary mission design. I've always wanted to know the real deep dirty intricacies of these missions and the issues that arise inside that nobody ever really hears about. Could you perhaps direct me to some? (via PM is okay)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/28/2015 04:56 am
Is the seismometer worth a 2 year delay?
It is the heart of the mission.  I can't imagine the mission would have been selected without it.

TPTB could just cut their losses and cancel the mission, maybe re-purpose the functional hardware for another mission(s). This is one way of getting 2 new Discovery missions. Since the cost overrun from delaying the Insight mission to the next launch window will mostly likely sacrificing at least one new Discovery mission. :(
We should probably wait at least few days/weeks before proclaiming all is lost, though...

Presuming the Insight mission will miss the current launch window is confirm in the future.

edit to added clarification
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jevans on 11/28/2015 07:19 am
They won't launch it without SEIS. As of yesterday all we on the UK side knew was that the launch date was being run up to the very end of the window, and also integrating SEIS at Vandenburg to give them more time was being investigated.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/28/2015 01:44 pm
Presuming the Insight mission will miss the current launch window is confirm.
You are saying that you have confirmation that InSight will miss its launch window?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 11/28/2015 03:53 pm
They've been working on SEIS for something like two decades, I wonder what's wrong?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kch on 11/28/2015 04:19 pm
They've been working on SEIS for something like two decades, I wonder what's wrong?

They had a problem with leaking seals, had to send it back to France.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/28/2015 04:27 pm
They've been working on SEIS for something like two decades, I wonder what's wrong?
My understanding is that this is one of the most complex instruments that will have been flown on a planetary mission.  The part that measures vibrations (which is what a seismometer does) is, or so I understand, pretty mature.  However putting this into a package that can survive on the surface of Mars apparently is proving difficult.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/28/2015 06:38 pm
Presuming the Insight mission will miss the current launch window is confirm.
You are saying that you have confirmation that InSight will miss its launch window?
No. Just that to make a decision on the mission after it becomes clear that the mission can not make the current  launch window.

note - edit my previous post to make clear it is future possibility.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 11/28/2015 07:11 pm
Put a thread in the hobbies section so this topic doesn't take over the InSight thread: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38908.0
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Sesquipedalian on 11/29/2015 04:57 am
Hmph.  As I recall, the rationale for selecting InSight over TiME or Comet Hopper was that it had the lowest risk out of the three proposals.  It seems this is not the case after all.

(I'd like to peek into an alternate universe and see how TiME is coming along at this stage of the game.)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 11/29/2015 05:35 am
Hmph.  As I recall, the rationale for selecting InSight over TiME or Comet Hopper was that it had the lowest risk out of the three proposals.  It seems this is not the case after all.

(I'd like to peek into an alternate universe and see how TiME is coming along at this stage of the game.)
TiME used instrument types that had a lot of flight heritage (I don't know how far that heritage carried to the specific instruments proposed since there wasn't much detail released publicly; probably a substantial amount).

However, TiME had the challenge of building a craft that could both fly through space for 7ish years (as I recall) and then operate for months in a lake of liquid ethane.  I suspect that that had some engineering challenges.  And we learned after the selection that the ASRG program was having some serious technical issues.

My take on the last round of finalists is that TiME and CHOPPER were complex missions for the price cap.  InSight seemed like the less risky mission, but apparently the heat flow and seismometer instruments have proven to be more challenging than expected and I seem to remember that there were some other issues.  However, design and testing problems are quite common on planetary missions, so I won't fault the InSight team.

However, one thing I've learned from reading books on the inside story of planetary missions is that they all seem to have their implementation problems and they often seem to occur where least expected (perhaps because the problems that were expected got lots of attention up front).  Space is hard.

Looking at the current round of finalists, Veritas, Lucy, and Psyche seem to be pretty straightforward missions.  Veritas carries a capable radar instrument, but it may have high heritage from the recent generation of Earth orbiting SAR/altimeter radars.  The NEOCam spacecraft is similar to several other modest sized telescope spacecraft, and its sensor has had a lot of technology development.  The DAVINCI Venus atmospheric probe mission seems to me to be the highest risk since it needs to implement a carrier/relay spacecraft, an atmospheric entry system, and a high pressure/high temperature descent probe. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/29/2015 07:17 am

...

Looking at the current round of finalists, Veritas, Lucy, and Psyche seem to be pretty straightforward missions.  Veritas carries a capable radar instrument, but it may have high heritage from the recent generation of Earth orbiting SAR/altimeter radars.  The NEOCam spacecraft is similar to several other modest sized telescope spacecraft, and its sensor has had a lot of technology development.  The DAVINCI Venus atmospheric probe mission seems to me to be the highest risk since it needs to implement a carrier/relay spacecraft, an atmospheric entry system, and a high pressure/high temperature descent probe.

The DAVINCI Venusian atmospheric probe seems similar to the large atmospheric probe carried by Pioneer Venus. So maybe there is some heritage technology available to draw from.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/29/2015 08:27 am

Hmph.  As I recall, the rationale for selecting InSight over TiME or Comet Hopper was that it had the lowest risk out of the three proposals.  It seems this is not the case after all.

(I'd like to peek into an alternate universe and see how TiME is coming along at this stage of the game.)

Yes fully agree. Greatly frustrating as I thought the other projects had more to offer scientifically than yet another Mars mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/29/2015 01:31 pm
Hmph.  As I recall, the rationale for selecting InSight over TiME or Comet Hopper was that it had the lowest risk out of the three proposals.  It seems this is not the case after all.

(I'd like to peek into an alternate universe and see how TiME is coming along at this stage of the game.)

Keep in mind that TiME required an ASRG, and the ASRG program ran into some big problems right around selection time. Because of the problems and cuts to the planetary science budget, NASA decided to put the ASRG program "on hold" (although it is really canceled).

So, if either TiME or CHOPPER had been selected, they definitely would have faced problems with finishing the ASRGs.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Graham on 12/03/2015 02:44 pm
NASA Watch is reporting that if the issue is not resolved by next month the launch will slip to the next window.

http://nasawatch.com/archives/2015/12/payload-problem.html?utm_campaign=&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=awesm-publisher&utm_medium=srs.gs-twitter
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/03/2015 09:48 pm
Mars Mission Team Addressing Vacuum Leak on Key Science Instrument

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=4782

Quote
December 3, 2015

Mission Status Report

A key science instrument that will be carried aboard NASA's Interior Exploration Using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) spacecraft being prepared for launch in March 2016 is experiencing a leak in the vacuum container carrying its main sensors. The sensors are part of an instrument called the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS), which is provided by the French Space Agency (CNES).

The seismometer is the prime science payload that will help answer questions about the interior structure and processes within the deep Martian interior. The SEIS instrument has three high-sensitivity seismometers enclosed in a sealed sphere. The seismometers need to operate in a vacuum in order to provide exquisite sensitivity to ground motions as small as the width of an atom. After the final sealing of the sphere, a small leak was detected, that would have prevented meeting the science requirements once delivered to the surface of Mars.

The CNES/JPL team is currently working to repair the leak, prior to instrument integration and final environmental tests in France before shipping to the United States for installation into the spacecraft and launch.

The InSight lander has completed assembly and testing at Lockheed Martin Space Systems in Colorado, and is being prepared to ship to the Vandenberg AFB launch site. Installation of the seismometer is planned for early January. The Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3) from Germany and the rest of the scientific payload are already installed.

NASA and CNES managers are committed to launching in March and are currently assessing the launch window timeline. This will be the first launch on the West Coast of a Mars mission and the first project devoted to investigating the deep interior of the Red Planet.

The InSight Project is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California, for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Lockheed Martin is building and testing the spacecraft. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, which is managed by NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/03/2015 09:56 pm
I'm guessing that in this case duct tape isn't sufficient despite its successful use by Mark Whatney.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 12/03/2015 11:25 pm
Is it an actual leak, or just out gassing from a careless thumb print? Anyone know how far they are trying to pump it down? 10^-3, 10^-5?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jevans on 12/03/2015 11:58 pm
I don't know numbers, but it's definitely not outgassing, it's a leak in the sphere crimp connection to the pump.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Nomadd on 12/04/2015 02:22 am
 Are there any numbers out there as to how badly Mars pressure would degrade the instrument if it flew like that, or would there be issues other than that?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/04/2015 04:25 am
When is the deadline date for a go or no go decision for the Insight mission with the current launch window?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Graham on 12/08/2015 03:44 pm
Peter de Selding tweeted that CNES is saying the leak has been repaired and the launch date will hold.
Quote
CNES: French-built SEIS instrument for NASA's Mars InSight mission should complete leak-repair tests in time to send to US in early January.
Quote
CNES's Le Gall: Leak in vacuum container for NASA Mars InSight lander - launch set for March from Calif - has been repaired, tests underway.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 12/08/2015 09:10 pm
Peter de Selding tweeted that CNES is saying the leak has been repaired and the launch date will hold.
Quote
CNES: French-built SEIS instrument for NASA's Mars InSight mission should complete leak-repair tests in time to send to US in early January.
Quote
CNES's Le Gall: Leak in vacuum container for NASA Mars InSight lander - launch set for March from Calif - has been repaired, tests underway.

Just heard the same thing too.  I earnestly hope for the best on this.  In the long term I'm hoping future landers can add seisometers as well to expand the network.  At least InSight provides a decent starting point.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Khadgars on 12/08/2015 09:18 pm
NASA Watch is reporting that if the issue is not resolved by next month the launch will slip to the next window.

http://nasawatch.com/archives/2015/12/payload-problem.html?utm_campaign=&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=awesm-publisher&utm_medium=srs.gs-twitter

When does NASAWATCH report anything other than negative news?  I'd be surprised if he updated the article with the news that InSight looks to be holding to schedule.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 12/09/2015 02:32 am
See? It all turned out well. ;)

We should probably wait at least few days/weeks before proclaiming all is lost, though...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: sdsds on 12/09/2015 04:52 am
Could someone please mark up the attached porkchop plot to show the Insight launch window? (Plot taken from: http://degenerateconic.com/porkchop-plots/) What boundary limit causes the window to close?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 12/09/2015 05:09 am
The green bar covers the launch window and is aligned to one arrival date, very roughly. I'm not sure how changes in the launch time affect the arrival time in InSight's case though. To minimize dV requirements you'd want to follow the little "nook" to the upper right of the contour it sits in, but if you want the same arrival date then it would be about on the green line.

Unless, of course, I have been misinterpreting porkchop plots for some time.

edit: I've just noticed the dates are the same on all three of those. I think I do require a bit of an expansion to my understanding of how they work...

The second graph aligns quite pleasantly with the launch window and arrival time, actually (removed the first attachment as I'm fairly sure it was wrong)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: LastStarFighter on 12/09/2015 05:44 am
The green bar covers the launch window and is aligned to one arrival date, very roughly. I'm not sure how changes in the launch time affect the arrival time in InSight's case though. To minimize dV requirements you'd want to follow the little "nook" to the upper right of the contour it sits in, but if you want the same arrival date then it would be about on the green line.

Unless, of course, I have been misinterpreting porkchop plots for some time.

edit: I've just noticed the dates are the same on all three of those. I think I do require a bit of an expansion to my understanding of how they work...

The second graph aligns quite pleasantly with the launch window and arrival time, actually (2nd attachment)

It all depends how you want to look at it. In some of my astrodynamics books they will do porkchop plots for interplanetary missions as the sum of the energy needed for departure and arrival. In our case here... The Atlas/Centaur are handling the departure and the spacecraft are handling the arrival. In a mission planning sense the total optimum solution probably wouldn't be used because each of those systems have finite capability. If I was making a guess for this mission. The spacecraft doesn't want to carry large variations on the propellant mass needed for arrival so the arrival energy (chart 2) determined the launch window. And the fixed arrival time was set because they was to minimize planning. As for the departure energy the high performance of the Atlas V (~2000kg to C3+19) allows the mission to launch in a slightly off optimal time in order to minimize the impact to the arrival energy for the spacecraft. Just my thoughts though... Second Arrivial plot and atlas excess performance seem to agree though.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: LastStarFighter on 12/09/2015 05:49 am
The green bar covers the launch window and is aligned to one arrival date, very roughly. I'm not sure how changes in the launch time affect the arrival time in InSight's case though. To minimize dV requirements you'd want to follow the little "nook" to the upper right of the contour it sits in, but if you want the same arrival date then it would be about on the green line.

Unless, of course, I have been misinterpreting porkchop plots for some time.

edit: I've just noticed the dates are the same on all three of those. I think I do require a bit of an expansion to my understanding of how they work...

The second graph aligns quite pleasantly with the launch window and arrival time, actually (removed the first attachment as I'm fairly sure it was wrong)

I though the first plot was good to have as well... Showed how planning for an arrival energy can affect the departure energy required. Thanks for doing them! :-)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: LastStarFighter on 12/09/2015 05:56 am
Could someone please mark up the attached porkchop plot to show the Insight launch window? (Plot taken from: http://degenerateconic.com/porkchop-plots/) What boundary limit causes the window to close?

I guess I didn't answer your question technically above. I think the answe to your question of what boundary limit causes the launch window. I would think the performance capability of the spacecraft would define that. Any one know the launch mass of the spacecraft. I saw a number for the lander but not the whole system. If we could find that number and cross reference it with the NASA LSP page we would roughly know the max C3 an Atlas 401 could do and draw that on the chart. See if it's a limiting factor as well... Or how much longer it would allow the window to grow and see the impacts to the mission. Just spit balling though. I might beaver thinking it 😉
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: sdsds on 12/09/2015 07:04 am
Thanks, these are all great answers! I'm still pondering, though.

I can see how if the goal were to propulsively enter orbit around Mars, minimizing the arrival C3 would be important because the spacecraft needs propellant to lose that excess energy. But isn't the plan for InSight to directly enter the Mars atmosphere? Would excess arrival C3 be sufficient to cause the entry to fail?

P.S. I see they have in fact "pegged" the arrival date:

InSight Key Dates
Launch: March 4 - March 30, 2016
Landing: September 28, 2016

From http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/insight/overview/index.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: gregzsidisin on 12/09/2015 01:29 pm
Amy Svitak and Mark Carreau in Aviation Week are also reporting that the leak has been repaired, and the SEIS seismic instrument will be returned to NASA in time for integration for a 2016 launch.  Article "France Repairs Instrument For InSight Mars Lander", http://aviationweek.com/space/france-repairs-instrument-insight-mars-lander
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/22/2015 02:56 pm
launch reportedly canceled:
http://nasawatch.com/archives/2015/12/nasa-will-not-b.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Graham on 12/22/2015 03:09 pm
James Dean reporting the launch has been suspended
Quote
NASA suspending planned March 2016 launch of InSight Mars lander due to air leak on key component. Was just delivered to Calif. launch site

https://twitter.com/flatoday_jdean/status/679328296845316096

Evidently a 3:30 EST presser is planned

And an SN article: http://spacenews.com/nasa-gives-up-on-fixing-mars-insight-in-time-for-march-launch/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/22/2015 03:17 pm
What I heard (I did not believe it, but it appears to be true) is that they thought it was fixed, shipped the instrument, and then upon further examination it was still leaking. My guess is that at that point they figured there was no way to make another repair and still make the launch.

But we'll hear at the press conference.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: russianhalo117 on 12/22/2015 03:29 pm
launch reportedly canceled:
http://nasawatch.com/archives/2015/12/nasa-will-not-b.html
cancelled is not the right word here. Delayed indefinetly or rescheduled might have been a better approach.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: as58 on 12/22/2015 03:57 pm
Apparently CNES president Jean-Yves Le Gall hasn't given up hope of making this launch window, see Peter de Seldings tweets:

https://twitter.com/pbdes?ref_src=twsrc
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/22/2015 04:50 pm
reported by Nature
http://www.nature.com/news/nasa-cancels-march-launch-to-mars-1.19082?WT.mc_id=TWT_NatureNews
and by Science
http://news.sciencemag.org/space/2015/12/nasa-delays-mars-insight-mission
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/22/2015 05:39 pm
Apparently CNES president Jean-Yves Le Gall hasn't given up hope of making this launch window, see Peter de Seldings tweets:

https://twitter.com/pbdes?ref_src=twsrc

He seems to think it might be a false positive?

According to the Nature article if it is delayed, it will likely have a detrimental impact on the next round of Discovery missions.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/22/2015 05:52 pm
According to the Nature article if it is delayed, it will likely have a detrimental impact on the next round of Discovery missions.
NASA will need to store the spacecraft, retain access to a launch vehicle (do those get stored if flights are delayed?), and pay to keep the engineering and science teams together.

My guess is that the flight of the next Discovery mission from the current competition will be delayed ~1 year to pay for the InSight delay.  I also suspect that NASA will forego selecting a second mission from the current round and instead begin a new competition in 2017 (selection likely in 2019, launch in the mid-2020s) as mandated by Congress in the FY16 funding bill.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 12/22/2015 05:55 pm
I wonder how TiME and CHopper are doing in parallel universe 1 and 2...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/22/2015 05:58 pm
I wonder how TiME and CHopper are doing in parallel universe 1 and 2...
Both severely delayed because of the development problems with the ASRGs.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jgoldader on 12/22/2015 06:28 pm
Anybody know what happens to the launcher in cases like this?  Is it reserved in storage (doesn't sound  like a good idea) or is it repurposed for the next mission in the Atlas queue?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/22/2015 06:38 pm
I am also wondering whether a 2018 Vandenberg launch would still be good from a celestial mechanics POV. Would it have to be moved to the Cape instead?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 06:56 pm
I wonder how TiME and CHopper are doing in parallel universe 1 and 2...
Both severely delayed because of the development problems with the ASRGs.

I don't know exactly when the window for TiME would close, but if they missed it they were in a world of hurt.

As for InSight, I really wonder how necessary the vacuum is for SEIS? If the instrument equalizes at Mars pressure is the science slightly degraded, majorly degraded, or is the instrument outright inoperative? What was their plan if SEIS developed a leak during the mission?

I also wonder if "the leak" itself is still the reason for the delay. NASA waving off this launch window while CNES says they aren't even sure there's a problem makes me wonder if someone nixed integration at Vandenberg?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 12/22/2015 07:10 pm
Anybody know what happens to the launcher in cases like this?  Is it reserved in storage (doesn't sound  like a good idea) or is it repurposed for the next mission in the Atlas queue?

They'll just reassign it to another mission and use a later Atlas V for this.  Zero sum.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 12/22/2015 07:23 pm
The link to the teleconference:
http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html

Participants:
John Grunsfeld, associate administrator of the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington
Jim Green, director of the Planetary Science Division at NASA Headquarters
Marc Pircher, CNES director
Philippe Laudet, CNES project manager for SEIS
Bruce Banerdt, InSight principal investigator, JPL
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/22/2015 07:25 pm
Anyone have the link for the press conference?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:30 pm
starting: http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html

(replay to be available at 866 445 8304)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: psloss on 12/22/2015 07:34 pm
starting: http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html

(replay to be available at 866 445 8304)
Title not good..."NASA Suspends..."
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: psloss on 12/22/2015 07:35 pm
Going back about half an hour:
https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/679393187174174721
Quote
Euro official: We tried until last minute but Mars InSight will not launch in March 2016. Decision made today.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:36 pm
Grunsfeld: Mars not seismically active the way earth is, need to push technology. Need vacuum.

Have been fighting leaks since August. Fixed leaks in connectors (2?), closeout tube, still leaking after temperature cycling.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mtakala24 on 12/22/2015 07:36 pm
Decision made this afternoon.

Mars not seismicly active, need better devices than on Earth. Extraordinary vacuum needed for the device.

Since last August, small leaks. In a connector, and another leak, and one in closeout tube. Got into a good config, looked tight, but still leaking in environmental testing.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:37 pm
No time to fix leak, but also sounds like they've lost confidence in design.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mtakala24 on 12/22/2015 07:37 pm
Sphere still leaking. Cannot fix, and even if can, can't be sure if there is a design fault.

Better to fix than launch.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:38 pm
Grunsfeld: We take great risks for great rewards. But not ready to go this time.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mtakala24 on 12/22/2015 07:38 pm
Next steps: Figure out technical route to fix and what to do after that.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/22/2015 07:40 pm
press release to go with the media audio conference
http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-suspends-2016-launch-of-insight-mission-to-mars-media-teleconference-today
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Bubbinski on 12/22/2015 07:40 pm
Sometimes the best launches are those that don't happen. Better to get it right rather than have the key instrument fail to deliver on Mars.

I was going to go to Lompoc for this. May try for Jason instead.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:41 pm
Pircher says leaks are 10^-6 and 10^-11 but I have no idea what the units are.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:44 pm
Banerdt: JPL "complete concurs with this decision"
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Helodriver on 12/22/2015 07:46 pm
Vandenberg has had bad luck in actually getting a Mars mission off the ground. Mars Odyssey was originally slated to launch from here but was moved to the cape after the delays caused by the Mars Polar Lander and Mars Climate Orbiter failures. Now another interplanetary mission slips off the manifest.

Might not get a West Coast Mars launch until the BFR flies from SLC-6 ;)

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:47 pm
Planetary Society: What impact on budget, especially next Discovery? What is the cost to keep team up?

Haven't worked out stand-down plan, been busy trying to hit window.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:48 pm
Jim Green: $675 M for all phases including launch. Have spent about $525M
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:50 pm
Plan for this particular LV not clear.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:52 pm
Q: Is mission automatically delayed 26 months, or possibility of cancellation?

A: As cost-capped mission required to review.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:54 pm
Nasawatch: [how is leak checking being done, how far do you push this design?]

A: No pressure sensor inside sphere, check pressure in other ways, including looking at seismometer performance, temperature.

CNES doesn't want pressure sensor inside sphere because power means heat.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:57 pm
AWST: When is next window? Follow on effects on other missions like 2020 rover?

A: May 2018 next window. Better margins in 2018. InSight doesn't effect other missions.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 07:59 pm
Bill Harwood: "How close was this decision?" Degraded science or no science?

A: Were very confident after fixing last leak, had week of margin left. But new leak means not enough time. At this leak rate, it would not work at all.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 08:03 pm
Kenneth Chang asks for better description of SEIS.

Banerdt: Sphere is 8-9 inches across. Sensitive to motion at size of an atom across huge frequency. Operates below 0.1 millibars atmosphere. I've got the wrong unit here I think. See down thread.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 08:05 pm
ArsTechnica: How long would it take to build a new instrument?

A: ~5 years. Very mature instrument, everything works except vacuum. Vibration and low temperatures are a problem. Think it can be repaired.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 08:12 pm
SEIS is near Paris, leak checking has been taking place there.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 08:17 pm
CNES: months to fix problem, even if some redesign necessary.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 08:18 pm
Spacecraft will return to LM. Need to design test program, consider replacing consumables or life limited components.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/22/2015 08:23 pm
Call over. Not much else interesting.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/22/2015 08:29 pm
No doubt bad press for all involved as politicians & public will not look into the details of this delay.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Greg906 on 12/22/2015 09:10 pm
Hi - any idea where I can listen to the audio file of today's press conference? Thanks!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 12/22/2015 09:34 pm
Hmm. How's Mars Cube One going to fare through this?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/23/2015 01:58 am
Is the seismometer worth a 2 year delay?
It is the heart of the mission.  I can't imagine the mission would have been selected without it.

TPTB could just cut their losses and cancel the mission, maybe re-purpose the functional hardware for another mission(s). This is one way of getting 2 new Discovery missions. Since the cost overrun from delaying the Insight mission to the next launch window will mostly likely sacrificing at least one new Discovery mission. :(
We should probably wait at least few days/weeks before proclaiming all is lost, though...

Sadly it appears the time for mission continuation decision have arrived.  :(
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/23/2015 03:29 am
Dec. 22, 2015
15-241

NASA Suspends 2016 Launch of InSight Mission to Mars, Media Teleconference Today (http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-suspends-2016-launch-of-insight-mission-to-mars-media-teleconference-today)

After thorough examination, NASA managers have decided to suspend the planned March 2016 launch of the Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) mission. The decision follows unsuccessful attempts to repair a leak in a section of the prime instrument in the science payload.

“Learning about the interior structure of Mars has been a high priority objective for planetary scientists since the Viking era,” said John Grunsfeld, associate administrator for NASA’s Science Mission Directorate in Washington. “We push the boundaries of space technology with our missions to enable science, but space exploration is unforgiving, and the bottom line is that we’re not ready to launch in the 2016 window. A decision on a path forward will be made in the coming months, but one thing is clear: NASA remains fully committed to the scientific discovery and exploration of Mars.”

The instrument involved is the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS), a seismometer provided by France’s Centre National d'Études Spatiales (CNES). Designed to measure ground movements as small as the diameter of an atom, the instrument requires a vacuum seal around its three main sensors to withstand the harsh conditions of the Martian environment.

“InSight's investigation of the Red Planet's interior is designed to increase understanding of how all rocky planets, including Earth, formed and evolved,” said Bruce Banerdt, InSight Principal Investigator at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Pasadena, California. “Mars retains evidence about the rocky planets' early development that has been erased on Earth by internal churning Mars lacks. Gaining information about the core, mantle and crust of Mars is a high priority for planetary science, and InSight was built to accomplish this."

A leak earlier this year that previously had prevented the seismometer from retaining vacuum conditions was repaired, and the mission team was hopeful the most recent fix also would be successful. However, during testing on Monday in extreme cold temperature (-49 degrees Fahrenheit/-45 degrees Celsius) the instrument again failed to hold a vacuum.

NASA officials determined there is insufficient time to resolve another leak, and complete the work and thorough testing required to ensure a successful mission.

“It’s the first time ever that such a sensitive instrument has been built. We were very close to succeeding, but an anomaly has occurred, which requires further investigation. Our teams will find a solution to fix it, but it won’t be solved in time for a launch in 2016,” said Marc Pircher, Director of CNES’s Toulouse Space Centre.

The spacecraft, built by Lockheed Martin, was delivered to Vandenberg Air Force Base in California, on Dec. 16. With the 2016 launch canceled, the spacecraft will be returned from Vandenberg to Lockheed’s facility in Denver.

The relative positions of the planets are most favorable for launching missions from Earth to Mars for only a few weeks every 26 months. For InSight, that 2016 launch window existed from March 4 to March 30.

“In 2008, we made a difficult, but correct decision to postpone the launch of the Mars Science Laboratory mission for two years to better ensure mission success,” said Jim Green, director, Planetary Science Division, in Washington. “The successes of that mission's rover, Curiosity, have vastly outweighed any disappointment about that delay."

NASA is on an ambitious journey to Mars that includes sending humans to the Red Planet, and that work remains on track despite Tuesday’s decision. Robotic spacecraft are leading the way for NASA’s Mars Exploration Program, with the upcoming Mars 2020 rover being designed and built, the Opportunity and Curiosity rovers exploring the Martian surface, the Odyssey and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spacecraft currently orbiting the planet, along with the MAVEN orbiter, which recently helped scientists understand what happened to the Martian atmosphere.

NASA and CNES also are participating in the European Space Agency's (ESA’s) Mars Express mission currently operating at Mars and plans to participate on ESA’s 2016 and 2018 ExoMars missions, including providing telecommunication radios for ESA's 2016 orbiter and a critical element of a key astrobiology instrument on the 2018 ExoMars rover.

“The JPL and CNES teams and their partners have made a heroic effort to prepare the InSight instrument, but have run out of time given the celestial mechanics of a launch to Mars,” said JPL Director Charles Elachi. “It is more important to do it right than take an unacceptable risk.”

InSight’s science payload includes two key instruments: SEIS, provided by CNES, and the Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3), provided by the German Aerospace Center (DLR).

SEIS was built with the participation of the Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris (IPGP) and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), with support from the Swiss Space Office and the European Space Agency PRODEX program; the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research (MPS), supported by DLR; Imperial College, supported by the United Kingdom Space Agency; and JPL.

NASA will hold a media teleconference at 3:30 p.m. EST today to provide details on the agency’s decision. Briefing participants are:

•John Grunsfeld, associate administrator of the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington
•Jim Green, director of the Planetary Science Division at NASA Headquarters
•Marc Pircher, CNES director
•Philippe Laudet, CNES project manager for SEIS
•Bruce Banerdt, InSight principal investigator, JPL

To participate in the teleconference by phone, media must email their name, media affiliation and phone number to Karen Northon at [email protected] by 3:30 p.m.

NASA will audio stream the teleconference live at:

http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: meekGee on 12/23/2015 06:33 am
Kenneth Chang asks for better description of SEIS.

Banerdt: Sphere is 8-9 inches across. Sensitive to motion at size of an atom across huge frequency. Operates below 0.1 millibars atmosphere.

That's hardly high vacuum, is it.  Given the description of how sensitive the instrument is, I think that's misquoted somehow.  I'd have expected something in the microTorr range.

Is it pumped (e.g. with a Getter) or just sealed?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: as58 on 12/23/2015 08:17 am
Kenneth Chang asks for better description of SEIS.

Banerdt: Sphere is 8-9 inches across. Sensitive to motion at size of an atom across huge frequency. Operates below 0.1 millibars atmosphere.

That's hardly high vacuum, is it.  Given the description of how sensitive the instrument is, I think that's misquoted somehow.  I'd have expected something in the microTorr range.

Is it pumped (e.g. with a Getter) or just sealed?

Casey Dreier writes at http://www.planetary.org/blogs/casey-dreier/2015/1222-nasas-InSight-mars-mission-delayed.html

Quote
To achieve the sensitivity required for these minute measurements, the instrument must operate in a near vacuum at a pressure of no more than 1/1000 of a millibar—about one millionth the sea-level atmospheric pressure on Earth.

So it's more like a microbar, not millibar.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 12/23/2015 01:00 pm
Kenneth Chang asks for better description of SEIS.

Banerdt: Sphere is 8-9 inches across. Sensitive to motion at size of an atom across huge frequency. Operates below 0.1 millibars atmosphere.

That's hardly high vacuum, is it.  Given the description of how sensitive the instrument is, I think that's misquoted somehow.  I'd have expected something in the microTorr range.

Is it pumped (e.g. with a Getter) or just sealed?

Casey Dreier writes at http://www.planetary.org/blogs/casey-dreier/2015/1222-nasas-InSight-mars-mission-delayed.html

Quote
To achieve the sensitivity required for these minute measurements, the instrument must operate in a near vacuum at a pressure of no more than 1/1000 of a millibar—about one millionth the sea-level atmospheric pressure on Earth.

So it's more like a microbar, not millibar.

Yeah I was scrambling to keep up, I'll check again today. I know it's pumped.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: saliva_sweet on 12/23/2015 01:16 pm
There's more detail here: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/23/science/space/leaks-in-instrument-force-nasa-to-delay-mars-mission-until-2018.html?hpw&rref=science&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&_r=1

Quote
The seismometers sit within a sphere about nine inches in diameter. Bruce Banerdt, InSight’s principal investigator, said that during tests of the instrument, still in France, air was pumped out to a pressure of about one ten-millionth of a millibar, or less than a billionth of the Earth’s atmospheric pressure of about 1,000 millibars.

Over the course of the mission, the vacuum would gradually rise by a factor of 10,000, to about a thousandth of a millibar, because of gases released within the instrument. Dr. Banerdt said the instrument would still function if the pressure were 100 times higher, at a tenth of a millibar.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 12/23/2015 02:25 pm
I wonder how TiME and CHopper are doing in parallel universe 1 and 2...
Both severely delayed because of the development problems with the ASRGs.

Hardly.  CHopper had a November 2016 and a January 2017 launch window.  Jim Green has stated repeatedly since the announcement of Insight as the selected mission that the ASRG could have been ready for a late 2016/early 2017 launch.  Whether he is being honest in that statement is a different topic but there is no reason the mission wouldn't have been ready otherwise.  All the instruments were very mature unlike Insight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/23/2015 09:12 pm
Hardly.  CHopper had a November 2016 and a January 2017 launch window.  Jim Green has stated repeatedly since the announcement of Insight as the selected mission that the ASRG could have been ready for a late 2016/early 2017 launch.  Whether he is being honest in that statement is a different topic but there is no reason the mission wouldn't have been ready otherwise.  All the instruments were very mature unlike Insight.
The ASRGs ran into some major development problems.  They might have been ready, but it would have cost significantly more money to complete their development.

As for instrument maturity, the seismometer has a couple of decades of development behind it and is working flawlessly.  It is the low tech pressure vessel surrounding the instrument that is failing.

Very often in spacecraft and instrument design, it is the simple things that bite you.  The word I'm hearing on the failure of NASA's SMAP radar is that the power supply failed (how many of those have flown?).  Either CHopper or TiME might have had their own problems.  Shit happens; you just hope it happens well in advance of launch, and definitely not after launch but that happens, too.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/23/2015 09:29 pm
Hardly.  CHopper had a November 2016 and a January 2017 launch window.  Jim Green has stated repeatedly since the announcement of Insight as the selected mission that the ASRG could have been ready for a late 2016/early 2017 launch.  Whether he is being honest in that statement is a different topic but there is no reason the mission wouldn't have been ready otherwise.  All the instruments were very mature unlike Insight.
The ASRGs ran into some major development problems.  They might have been ready, but it would have cost significantly more money to complete their development.

As for instrument maturity, the seismometer has a couple of decades of development behind it and is working flawlessly.  It is the low tech pressure vessel surrounding the instrument that is failing.

Very often in spacecraft and instrument design, it is the simple things that bite you.  The word I'm hearing on the failure of NASA's SMAP radar is that the power supply failed (how many of those have flown?).  Either CHopper or TiME might have had their own problems.  Shit happens; you just hope it happens well in advance of launch, and definitely not after launch but that happens, too.

Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/23/2015 10:41 pm
Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.
But for the grace of god, any mission could end up as a paperweight or a failure after launch.

Look, some missions seem to be poorly managed and they deserve to have sticks and stones thrown at their managers.  That appears to have been the case for the Mars Observer and the 1999 Mars missions.

However, I've not heard a peep about poor management for InSight.  Shit happens, and it could have happened to any well managed mission.  CHopper and TiME would not have been immune to bad luck.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/24/2015 01:19 am
Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.

Please don't commit the common fallacy of assuming that the paper spacecraft would have worked perfectly and therefore is better. There is no reason to assume that the other options would have had no problems in development. Both TiME and CHOPPER would have been new spacecraft and new and previously-unflown power supplies. InSight uses a proven spacecraft and power supply.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/24/2015 02:42 am
when are we likely to know whether this will be rescheduled for 2018 or cancelled?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: sdsds on 12/24/2015 03:06 am
First: condolences to those whose mission suffered this setback. Hopefully it will still get a chance to fly!

I'm curious if any engineering test articles were produced before production of the flight instrument was attempted? If so, did they include the vacuum aspect of the instrument?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: savuporo on 12/24/2015 04:06 am
Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.

Please don't commit the common fallacy of assuming that the paper spacecraft would have worked perfectly and therefore is better..

At least IMHO, ASRG would have been a more generally useful enabling technology component to get out of this - definitely more worth the risk than a .. pressure vessel, all else assumed equal.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/24/2015 06:27 am

Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.

Please don't commit the common fallacy of assuming that the paper spacecraft would have worked perfectly and therefore is better..

At least IMHO, ASRG would have been a more generally useful enabling technology component to get out of this - definitely more worth the risk than a .. pressure vessel, all else assumed equal.

Well there is that as well. Whether stopping ASRG development was a wise decision I would question.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GuessWho on 12/24/2015 12:42 pm
Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.

Please don't commit the common fallacy of assuming that the paper spacecraft would have worked perfectly and therefore is better. There is no reason to assume that the other options would have had no problems in development. Both TiME and CHOPPER would have been new spacecraft and new and previously-unflown power supplies. InSight uses a proven spacecraft and power supply.



By that argument, it is not a technical question but a program management one.  Mature instrument, mature spacecraft, mature power system, .... etc.  Then the finger needs to be pointed at JPL.  They had a $450M cost-capped mission, have blown through $525M to date to get to launch, and per Jim Green, are looking at a total bill of $675M.  Only a 50% cost increase without the delay.  I think I predicted this a very long time ago.  But it's JPL, so no harm, no foul.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ccdengr on 12/24/2015 01:58 pm
Look, some missions seem to be poorly managed and they deserve to have sticks and stones thrown at their managers.  That appears to have been the case for the Mars Observer and the 1999 Mars missions.
Citations needed.  Were you involved in any way with those missions?  You seem to have a very fluid definition of where "poor management" shades into "bad luck".  IMHO they are not even on the same line, but it's certainly unwise to rely on luck.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/24/2015 04:17 pm
Look, some missions seem to be poorly managed and they deserve to have sticks and stones thrown at their managers.  That appears to have been the case for the Mars Observer and the 1999 Mars missions.
Citations needed.  Were you involved in any way with those missions?  You seem to have a very fluid definition of where "poor management" shades into "bad luck".  IMHO they are not even on the same line, but it's certainly unwise to rely on luck.
Look at two NASA 1999 Mars missions as examples of poorly managed missions.

In hindsight when there is a failure, it is always obvious that a mission team should have done X.  If I could manage my life with prior hindsight knowledge, I could have avoided a lot of mistakes and my stock picks would have made me filthy rich.

The real test of project management expertise is whether the team acted as teams in other well managed projects would have. ******IF****** the inevitable review finds that the team ignored tests of the vacuum chamber throughout development, then that would be a sign of poor management.  On the other hand, if they had conducted tests throughout the development and then found problems only in the final production unit then that comes under the appearance of gremlins that can strike any project because every project has to decide where to focus its testing.

The Galileo mission was crippled because no one thought to re-lube the antenna deployment pins, the Contour mission failed because of the interaction of using a high heritage engine with the faring, Venus Express' Planetary Fourier Spectrometer instrument failed because its mirror stuck, NASA's SMAP radar instrument recently failed shortly after launch and the explanation I've heard second hand suggests another really simple failure.  With perfect hindsight, any of these problems could have been found and corrected. 

One of the readers questioned my background.  In a previous career I worked for a leading high tech company, and the largest project easily cost more than the $675M cost for InSight.  We never shipped a product without bugs -- there wasn't enough time in human experience to test all possible combinations of everything.  I learned to be humble about design and testing and the role luck plays in none of the bugs proving to be critical path.  Every development team creates a list of what they think their problem areas will be and focuses on those, which is why the problems in space missions often seem to come from the simple things like stuck mirrors or leaking welds on vacuum chambers.

And by the way, that really big project shipped well beyond its original ship date and well over budget.  Throwing an essentially unlimited budget (the future of the company depended on the success of this product) at a project helps overwhelm the number of bugs.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ccdengr on 12/24/2015 11:36 pm
Look at two NASA 1999 Mars missions as examples of poorly managed missions.
Again, I fail to see the distinction between the Mars 98 missions and the examples you cite (Galileo, CONTOUR, SMAP) that validates your claim that Mars 98 was poorly managed and the latter were not (if that's in fact your view).  I'd be reluctant to cast the stone of poor management at any project unless I knew the inside details.  For Mars 98, the best public source is Jolly and Euler, “The Failures of the Mars Climate Orbiter and Mars Polar Lander—A Perspective from the People Involved,” http://web.mit.edu/16.070/www/readings/Failures_MCO_MPL.pdf

At this point, IMHO we simply don't know enough about the problem with SEIS to say if it was avoidable or not.  Presumably because of the international component NASA was not responsible for management of its development at any detailed level, though as with other international efforts (e.g., Huygens) the interfaces seem to be complex and multinational in nature, never a risk-reducing feature. https://presse.cnes.fr/en/cp-9797
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/25/2015 12:03 am
Look at two NASA 1999 Mars missions as examples of poorly managed missions.
Again, I fail to see the distinction between the Mars 98 missions and the examples you cite (Galileo, CONTOUR, SMAP) that validates your claim that Mars 98 was poorly managed and the latter were not (if that's in fact your view).  I'd be reluctant to cast the stone of poor management at any project unless I knew the inside details.  For Mars 98, the best public source is Jolly and Euler, “The Failures of the Mars Climate Orbiter and Mars Polar Lander—A Perspective from the People Involved,” http://web.mit.edu/16.070/www/readings/Failures_MCO_MPL.pdf

At this point, IMHO we simply don't know enough about the problem with SEIS to say if it was avoidable or not.  Presumably because of the international component NASA was not responsible for management of its development at any detailed level, though as with other international efforts (e.g., Huygens) the interfaces seem to be complex and multinational in nature, never a risk-reducing feature. https://presse.cnes.fr/en/cp-9797
My recollection on the Mars 98 missions is that they were severely underfunded leading to shortcuts throughout both projects.  The individuals on the team were competent but were operating in an environment dictated by a budget imposed from the top levels of NASA that created an environment where simple mistakes were likely to be undetected.  It was senior management's failure (and not unique to NASA; I've seen similar dictates in private industry from executive staffs).

Another type of poor management is one where the project team fails to adequately manage their budget and therefore has serious cost overruns, but NASA has said that InSight is within budget.

I suspect that the question of whether or not the InSight team adequately managed their risks is one that NASA's managers will consider as they decide whether or not to cancel the mission.  Going ahead with the mission likely would mean that NASA cannot pick two Discovery missions from the current selection (per Green).  So one fewer Discovery missions in the coming decade is possible/probable.


Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/25/2015 12:42 am
For Mars 98, the best public source is Jolly and Euler, “The Failures of the Mars Climate Orbiter and Mars Polar Lander—A Perspective from the People Involved,”

A more objective report:

"Mars Program Independent Assessment Team Summary Report March 14, 2000"

http://sunnyday.mit.edu/accidents/mpiat_summary.pdf

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/25/2015 12:51 am
Yes it might have cost more money up front but better that than a giant paperweight as this mission could well end up being.

Please don't commit the common fallacy of assuming that the paper spacecraft would have worked perfectly and therefore is better..

At least IMHO, ASRG would have been a more generally useful enabling technology component to get out of this - definitely more worth the risk than a .. pressure vessel, all else assumed equal.

This is about science not "enabling technology". The pressure vessel is a key component of one of the three main instruments on the mission. You don't want to lose a third of your science through a fault picked up before launch
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Graham on 12/28/2015 11:33 pm
The Participating Scientist Program for InSight has been cancelled.

http://spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=48260
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 12/29/2015 04:02 pm
Best case, InSight is postponed to the next launch window. However, I do wonder what is the possibility of the project being cancelled. I suppose, in the end, it's a financial question: Can NASA's SMD budget absorb keeping the probe in mothballs for 2 years, re-flighting it and also the costs involved with repairing the faulty instrument.

I'm sure that CNES will have to pay most of the costs arising from replacing the faulty instrument but there will still be costs that NASA will face, including personnel costs (non-CNES personnel involved in integration and quality verification).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/29/2015 04:25 pm
Best case, InSight is postponed to the next launch window. However, I do wonder what is the possibility of the project being cancelled. I suppose, in the end, it's a financial question: Can NASA's SMD budget absorb keeping the probe in mothballs for 2 years, re-flighting it and also the costs involved with repairing the faulty instrument.

I'm sure that CNES will have to pay most of the costs arising from replacing the faulty instrument but there will still be costs that NASA will face, including personnel costs (non-CNES personnel involved in integration and quality verification).
Unless Congress boosts the Discovery program budget, one of the two following seems likely:

NASA cancel's InSight, and then has funding to proceed as it says it would like to do and picks to new missions from the current Discovery competition.

NASA doesn't cancel InSight, and InSight's launch and operations budgets are pushed into the period when NASA starts to ramp up funding for the next Discovery selection.  In this case, NASA's managers have hinted strongly that they can pick just one new Discovery mission.

So, either way we seem likely to end up with two Discovery missions instead of three launching in the next 5-7 years.  Part of the problem is that federal agencies can't just bank the funding they would have spent on InSight this year and next to spend it a couple of years down the road.  The federal government operations on a one year cash basis; money not spent in the current fiscal year returns to the Treasury.  There's limited ability to park money with independent labs such as JPL or contractors, and I don't know the particular rules. 

I'm sure that NASA's managers will have a laser focus on these issues and options.  But I'm prepared to hear that we lose a Discovery mission out of all of this.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: as58 on 12/29/2015 05:17 pm
The lesson here is to never use acronym GEMS for your mission. InSight was called GEophysical Monitoring Station (GEMS) early in its development until it was changed to InSight, because NASA already had an astrophysics mission called Gravity and Extreme Magnetism Small Explorer (also GEMS for short). GEMS would've been launched in 2014, but it was cancelled in May 2012 because of cost overruns.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 12/29/2015 06:39 pm
I don't think they will cancel InSight. The issue is really small, and it will be paid by CNES. The only cost is the carry cost of the support engineering and the LV penalties. It will be more expensive than originally envisioned but a lot less than a full blown Discovery mission. While it might prevent two Discovery missions now, it might enable to accelerate the next Discovery call later. The extra moneys needed would be what, 100M in two years? And a Discovery is 450M. Or do I misunderstood the numbers?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 12/29/2015 07:16 pm
If InSight were to be canceled it would likely be stored somewhere rather than scrapped. They stored the canceled 2001 lander. Years later it was repurposed for the Phoenix lander. Its resurrection was under different circumstances than exist today. Phoenix was under the Scout Program which is now defunct. InSight is in the Discovery Program, which is where it would likely have to compete if proposed again. Is is possible the lander could be proposed again? Is it likely?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/29/2015 07:55 pm
If InSight is delayed, NASA has new unplanned expenses for storing the lander and instruments, paying the salaries for a core group of engineers and scientists, and retesting and re-integrating everything.  It then has to pay for the launch and operations of the mission originally planned for 2016-2018, but that would now be in 2018-2020.

NASA has ~$150M budgeted for InSight for 2016-2018.  There is no federal bank where it can simply deposit the funds to spend later.  Any funds not spent in a given year go back to the Treasury and are lost to the agency.

However, NASA could spend the $150M on other projects such as the 2020 Mars rover, the Europa mission, and the to be selected Discovery mission, accelerating spending and work on those projects.  Also, there is some ability to count money as spent once it is transferred to an outside entity such as JPL or a contractor and they can hold the funds for a limited period of time (I'm don't know how long).  There are lots of rules on this however and I don't know how well this can be done.  However, by paying earlier for work on other missions, NASA ***might*** be able (with the approval of Congress and OMB) to later transfer money from those other projects back to InSight.

I strongly suspect that NASA's managers will be looking at both the overall costs of a delayed InSight mission, and the ability to transfer money among projects to smooth budgets.  Somewhere in the answers to those questions (and the public has virtually no ability to have insight into these matters) will be the data that will allow those managers to decide whether or not to delay or cancel Insight.

Another on this thread know more about these matters?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/29/2015 09:29 pm
However, NASA could spend the $150M on other projects such as the 2020 Mars rover, the Europa mission, and the to be selected Discovery mission, accelerating spending and work on those projects.  Also, there is some ability to count money as spent once it is transferred to an outside entity such as JPL or a contractor and they can hold the funds for a limited period of time (I'm don't know how long).  There are lots of rules on this however and I don't know how well this can be done.  However, by paying earlier for work on other missions, NASA ***might*** be able (with the approval of Congress and OMB) to later transfer money from those other projects back to InSight.


There's a little more flexibility than you imply. I don't understand how it all works, but there is such a thing as "2-year money" which can be spent over the course of two years before it has to be returned to the Treasury. This makes sense, because as you can imagine, somebody might perform work in December and then submit a bill and the government may not pay it until January or later, so money needs to be able to get carried over for those kinds of things. (Actually, the fiscal year starts October 1, which makes the end of September the normal cutoff date.)

Now some of the hit for InSight may not be all that big and could be ameliorated. For instance, that Atlas is not going to be cut up into scrap, so the vehicle is simply going to be assigned to another launch. ULA is going to charge a fee for that, but it's only going to be a small percentage of the vehicle. And things like science costs are not going to happen in 2017, so that money can go elsewhere.

I think an interesting thing to do is to try and compare it to MSL/Curiosity, which had a 2-year delay and cost $400 million. However, there are major differences between that and InSight--it was not a cost-capped/competed program, and MSL still required substantial engineering work, so the engineering team had to be kept on budget to do stuff.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/29/2015 09:46 pm
However, NASA could spend the $150M on other projects such as the 2020 Mars rover, the Europa mission, and the to be selected Discovery mission, accelerating spending and work on those projects.  Also, there is some ability to count money as spent once it is transferred to an outside entity such as JPL or a contractor and they can hold the funds for a limited period of time (I'm don't know how long).  There are lots of rules on this however and I don't know how well this can be done.  However, by paying earlier for work on other missions, NASA ***might*** be able (with the approval of Congress and OMB) to later transfer money from those other projects back to InSight.

There's a little more flexibility than you imply. I don't understand how it all works, but there is such a thing as "2-year money" which can be spent over the course of two years before it has to be returned to the Treasury. This makes sense, because as you can imagine, somebody might perform work in December and then submit a bill and the government may not pay it until January or later, so money needs to be able to get carried over for those kinds of things. (Actually, the fiscal year starts October 1, which makes the end of September the normal cutoff date.)

Now some of the hit for InSight may not be all that big and could be ameliorated. For instance, that Atlas is not going to be cut up into scrap, so the vehicle is simply going to be assigned to another launch. ULA is going to charge a fee for that, but it's only going to be a small percentage of the vehicle. And things like science costs are not going to happen in 2017, so that money can go elsewhere.

I think an interesting thing to do is to try and compare it to MSL/Curiosity, which had a 2-year delay and cost $400 million. However, there are major differences between that and InSight--it was not a cost-capped/competed program, and MSL still required substantial engineering work, so the engineering team had to be kept on budget to do stuff.
I know that for my research grants (all federal agencies) that their accounting systems count the money as spent/obligated once the contract is signed with my university even though I spend the money over up to five years.  However, those contracts assume that the work starts when the contract is signed.

It may be harder to do that, though, for InSight operations costs that won't be incurred until after 2018.  However, NASA might use 2016 and 2017 InSight money to obligate money for, say, Mars 2020, and then shift money targeted in long term spending plans from Mars 2020 to InSight.  That's where the details of the contracting rules really matter.

In the case of Curiosity, I seem to remember that NASA covered the costs by using funding previously planned for other planetary missions (possibly only future Mars work, but my memory is hazy). 

NASA now has ~~$150M in uncommitted funding for the next two years and likely will need a similar amount in 2018-2020 if InSight is only delayed.  So the key question is whether they can shift funding across projects and years or must take it all from spending previously planned to be spent in 2018-2020.  The fact that Green said he could pick only one new Discovery mission if InSight were delayed suggests that he feels he can't just do the money shifting and instead would need to take money that would otherwise have been used for development of a second new Discovery mission.

I used to be part of replans like this when I worked in high tech.  It wasn't easy, and I suspect that it won't be for NASA's managers.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 12/29/2015 10:11 pm
Is there some kind of date by which they will need to have made a decision if to cancel it or not?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/29/2015 10:20 pm
Is there some kind of date by which they will need to have made a decision if to cancel it or not?
My guess is that they will decide before the end of the current fiscal year (September 30), when they will select either one or two new Discovery missions.

For anyone missing the joys of root canals, there are documents that discuss all the joys of how spending may be obligated.  A strong background in accounting and law probably help.  It appears that the two-year rule that Blackstar refers to may have been superseded.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/procurement/regs/pic11-04.html

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/434542main_Bona_Fide_Needs_Terms_2.pdf
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 12/29/2015 10:42 pm
In the case of Curiosity, I seem to remember that NASA covered the costs by using funding previously planned for other planetary missions (possibly only future Mars work, but my memory is hazy).

Going back through your blog, it would seem that they first drained the rest of the Mars budget.  Then Juno & GRAIL took a hit from their reserves, but they were under budget & ISTR that they eventually got paid back (at least in part).  IIRC HQ reserves covered the rest.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 12/29/2015 11:07 pm
My point is that you should think about this in dynamic terms. Delaying Insight might mean just one Discovery now, but open the possibility of awarding a Discovery in 2018, while cancelling might mean two discoveries now but no new competition until 2021 or so. I seriously doubt it will increase the mission cost by 100M. I would guess a 50M increase. Everything is done save the instrument integration.
Of course, the Atlas V in 2018 will be a Common Avionics, so some small new integration will be needed. There will be storage costs. And keeping the engineering core team. And ULA will require some penalty.
And some of those things. But I simply don't see how all that could amount to even 100M. I would expect less than 50M. Specially when the actual problem will be payed by CNES, not NASA.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/29/2015 11:21 pm
Will the new US administration and the possible new NASA administrator change anything for the Insight mission continuation?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/30/2015 03:23 am
Will the new US administration and the possible new NASA administrator change anything for the Insight mission continuation?

No. NASA will make a decision on this mission within the next few months, long before a new administration.

OMB and Congress generally stay out of these kinds of things once the program is running. OMB will have to agree to any NASA plan for InSight (for instance, if NASA wants to delay the mission and that costs extra money), but I think this is primarily NASA's call.

One of the benefits of the New Frontiers and Discovery program lines is that it has minimized Congressional and Executive meddling in the missions. That leaves the people who understand the projects best--NASA managers--calling the shots. That only continues as long as the elected officials (and OMB) have faith that NASA can manage effectively.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 12/30/2015 03:26 am
My point is that you should think about this in dynamic terms. Delaying Insight might mean just one Discovery now, but open the possibility of awarding a Discovery in 2018, while cancelling might mean two discoveries now but no new competition until 2021 or so. I seriously doubt it will increase the mission cost by 100M. I would guess a 50M increase. Everything is done save the instrument integration.
Of course, the Atlas V in 2018 will be a Common Avionics, so some small new integration will be needed. There will be storage costs. And keeping the engineering core team. And ULA will require some penalty.
And some of those things. But I simply don't see how all that could amount to even 100M. I would expect less than 50M. Specially when the actual problem will be payed by CNES, not NASA.
If NASA doesn't select two Discovery missions next September, the next competition will begin in 2017 (my guess late in the year) with a selection in 2019 and launch in mid-2020s.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 01/05/2016 06:44 am
CNES Vows To Get to the Bottom of Leaks that Forced Mars InSight Delay
http://spacenews.com/cnes-vows-to-get-to-the-bottom-of-leaks-that-forced-mars-insight-delay/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 01/05/2016 07:44 pm
The seismometer isn't the only instrument on Insight. If choice is between flying a hobbled Insight and complete cancelation while also wasting the funds, then the logical choice is to actually fly the hobbled Insight. So I conclude they expect to be able to fix the problem and fly later.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kato on 01/05/2016 07:54 pm
The seismometer is the primary instrument and had costs of over 50% of the entire instrument loads. Flying without it doesn't make sense if you're still treating it as a scientific mission.

The only other actual science instrument onboard is DLR's HP³ suite, a modernized version of Philae's MUPUS.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 01/05/2016 08:49 pm
The seismometer is the primary instrument and had costs of over 50% of the entire instrument loads. Flying without it doesn't make sense if you're still treating it as a scientific mission.

The only other actual science instrument onboard is DLR's HP³ suite, a modernized version of Philae's MUPUS.
On top of that flying without the seismometer likely means it never flies. SEIS was built for InSight and vice versa.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Bubbinski on 01/27/2016 04:22 pm
Jeff Foust tweeted something from NASA's David Schurr indicating that a decision to fly or not fly Insight will happen in March.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 01/29/2016 01:03 pm
I will only like, if they decide to fly it ;)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 02/11/2016 10:40 am
Apparently they're going to decide what to do with InSight next month.  Frankly it's not the team's fault France's side encountered a hiccup, although I don't know if France could be coerced into paying for any operating costs.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 02/11/2016 11:10 am
Apparently they're going to decide what to do with InSight next month.  Frankly it's not the team's fault France's side encountered a hiccup, although I don't know if France could be coerced into paying for any operating costs.

The space agencies don't exchange funds, so I don't see how they could get France to pay anything.

And to be fair, NASA (really the OMB) canceled the ExoMars agreement years ago which stuck ESA with a bunch of extra costs and NASA did not send ESA a check.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/03/2016 01:39 am
Bunch of InSight tweets today:

https://twitter.com/StephenClark1/status/705118108105576448
Quote
Stephen Clark ‏@StephenClark1  7h7 hours ago
Bruce Banerdt, InSight PI, says launch delay from 2016 and mission replan will cost NASA about $150m. Decision due from NASA HQ shortly.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/705112114797551617
Quote
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  7h7 hours ago
Banerdt: Replanned InSight mission would launch May 5, 2018; land Nov. 26.

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/705111921595277313
Quote
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  7h7 hours ago
Banerdt: cost increase to InSight as result of replan on the order of $150 million; requires higher-level agency approval. #mepag

https://twitter.com/lbillin/status/705111849965109248
Quote
Linda Billings ‏@lbillin  7h7 hours ago
Banerdt says Insight team hopes to have SMD go-no go decision "hopefully" w/in a week #mepag

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/705111495659560960
Quote
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  7h7 hours ago
Banerdt: since decision to cancel 2016 InSight launch, working on replan for 2018 launch; think we know how to fix seismometer leak. #mepag

Fingers crossed for Cinco De Mayo.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 03/03/2016 01:59 am
which coast?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: arachnitect on 03/03/2016 02:18 am
$150M is worse than I thought.

fingers crossed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/03/2016 09:05 am

$150M is worse than I thought.

fingers crossed.

Feel that pill will be too large to swallow here.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Tim Alexander on 03/03/2016 09:13 am

$150M is worse than I thought.

fingers crossed.

Feel that pill will be too large to swallow here.

Do people have an idea of what is contributing to that cost? It does seem like an awful lot...
I'm guessing that a few of the contributions come from things like storing/replacing the launcher, fixing the instrument itself (unless that is done by France under the whole no exchange of funds thing) and keeping the science and engineering teams together and paid. Is there one (or more) of these that might be contributing so much to the total, or something else entirely?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 03/03/2016 10:35 am

Do people have an idea of what is contributing to that cost? It does seem like an awful lot...


the launcher will be used by another mission and Insight will get another vehicle.  But part of the costs will be for delays to the launch vehicle and the reshuffling of the hardware.  The mission has to be completely replanned for the new window, so all those analysis have to redone.  Since Insight was at the launch site, project money for operations was used to pack it up and return it to the factory.  So exception for maybe a shorter duration at the launch site, Insight basically burned money as though it was launched.  So all the operations for the last year will basically have to be repeated for the next attempt.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 03/03/2016 10:38 am

$150M is worse than I thought.

fingers crossed.

Feel that pill will be too large to swallow here.

Do people have an idea of what is contributing to that cost? It does seem like an awful lot...
I'm guessing that a few of the contributions come from things like storing/replacing the launcher, fixing the instrument itself (unless that is done by France under the whole no exchange of funds thing) and keeping the science and engineering teams together and paid. Is there one (or more) of these that might be contributing so much to the total, or something else entirely?

$150M is simply what the mission would have  spent from last December through the end of the prime mission.  Those costs now shift forward.  Unfortunately, the federal government doesn't have good mechanisms to simply put money not spent this  year into the "bank" and spend it a couple of years later.  The basic rule is that money not spent in the current fiscal year goes back to Congress.  There are some ways to work work around this.  NASA could contractually obligate money to a contractor such as JPL (really CalTech) and that counts as spending it.  It could spend the money it would have spent on InSight and spend it on other missions for the next two years, and then use money from those other missions to fund InSight in a couple of years.  There are rules about what can be done to limit shell games, and I don't know what they are, so I can't speculate what NASA could or couldn't do.

I wrote a blog post on this topic: http://futureplanets.blogspot.com/2015/12/insights-problems-possible-impacts.html

Do people have an idea of what is contributing to that cost? It does seem like an awful lot...
I'm guessing that a few of the contributions come from things like storing/replacing the launcher, fixing the instrument itself (unless that is done by France under the whole no exchange of funds thing) and keeping the science and engineering teams together and paid. Is there one (or more) of these that might be contributing so much to the total, or something else entirely?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/03/2016 10:51 am
Man I'm pitying InSight.  I hope vjkane is right in that it might not necessarily be that full $150 million, but I agree with Star One on it being a large pill to swallow in any case.  The lander is nearly complete which would normally be worth a little extra, but if it jeopardizes the possibility of 2 new Discovery missions I can't agree it's worth ruining the opportunities to see Venus and new types of asteroids.  Crossing my eyes and my fingers together in the vague hope Congress widens the check just a little further.
 :(
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/03/2016 12:09 pm
Man I'm pitying InSight.  I hope vjkane is right in that it might not necessarily be that full $150 million, but I agree with Star One on it being a large pill to swallow in any case.  The lander is nearly complete which would normally be worth a little extra, but if it jeopardizes the possibility of 2 new Discovery missions I can't agree it's worth ruining the opportunities to see Venus and new types of asteroids.  Crossing my eyes and my fingers together in the vague hope Congress widens the check just a little further.
 :(

I was talking to somebody about this yesterday and they made a good observation--count the number of planetary missions launching in the next five years. What is that number with InSight and without?

The point being that without InSight launching, the number of launching missions is very low. In that light, it makes sense to bite the bullet, pay the $150 million, and launch something.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/03/2016 07:46 pm
Man I'm pitying InSight.  I hope vjkane is right in that it might not necessarily be that full $150 million, but I agree with Star One on it being a large pill to swallow in any case.  The lander is nearly complete which would normally be worth a little extra, but if it jeopardizes the possibility of 2 new Discovery missions I can't agree it's worth ruining the opportunities to see Venus and new types of asteroids.  Crossing my eyes and my fingers together in the vague hope Congress widens the check just a little further.
 :(

I was talking to somebody about this yesterday and they made a good observation--count the number of planetary missions launching in the next five years. What is that number with InSight and without?

The point being that without InSight launching, the number of launching missions is very low. In that light, it makes sense to bite the bullet, pay the $150 million, and launch something.

Definitely hope you're right.  We've got a nearly-ready Mars lander and a way to probe the unstudied interior of a terrestrial planet.  I can feel the aggravation the team must be going through.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 03/09/2016 01:14 pm
Jim Green just announced that they will fund InSight for the 2018 launch. The majority of the money will come in the 2018 timeframe, so they'll need to scare up money then, but they have money to cover the delay now.

Will only know if they can select more than one Discovery mission based upon the results of the Phase A studies. Discovery competition is not in danger.

Here's the official announcement: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=5746 (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=5746)

NASA Targets May 2018 Launch of Mars InSight Mission

NASA's Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) mission to study the deep interior of Mars is targeting a new launch window that begins May 5, 2018, with a Mars landing scheduled for Nov. 26, 2018.

InSight's primary goal is to help us understand how rocky planets -- including Earth -- formed and evolved. The spacecraft had been on track to launch this month until a vacuum leak in its prime science instrument prompted NASA in December to suspend preparations for launch.

InSight project managers recently briefed officials at NASA and France's space agency, Centre National d'Études Spatiales (CNES), on a path forward; the proposed plan to redesign the science instrument was accepted in support of a 2018 launch.

"The science goals of InSight are compelling, and the NASA and CNES plans to overcome the technical challenges are sound," said John Grunsfeld, associate administrator for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. "The quest to understand the interior of Mars has been a longstanding goal of planetary scientists for decades. We're excited to be back on the path for a launch, now in 2018."

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, will redesign, build and conduct qualifications of the new vacuum enclosure for the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS), the component that failed in December. CNES will lead instrument level integration and test activities, allowing the InSight Project to take advantage of each organization's proven strengths. The two agencies have worked closely together to establish a project schedule that accommodates these plans, and scheduled interim reviews over the next six months to assess technical progress and continued feasibility.

The cost of the two-year delay is being assessed. An estimate is expected in August, once arrangements with the launch vehicle provider have been made.

The seismometer instrument's main sensors need to operate within a vacuum chamber to provide the exquisite sensitivity needed for measuring ground movements as small as half the radius of a hydrogen atom. The rework of the seismometer's vacuum container will result in a finished, thoroughly tested instrument in 2017 that will maintain a high degree of vacuum around the sensors through rigors of launch, landing, deployment and a two-year prime mission on the surface of Mars.

The InSight mission draws upon a strong international partnership led by Principal Investigator Bruce Banerdt of JPL. The lander's Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package is provided by the German Aerospace Center (DLR). This probe will hammer itself to a depth of about 16 feet (5 meters) into the ground beside the lander.

SEIS was built with the participation of the Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, with support from the Swiss Space Office and the European Space Agency PRODEX program; the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, supported by DLR; Imperial College, supported by the United Kingdom Space Agency; and JPL.

"The shared and renewed commitment to this mission continues our collaboration to find clues in the heart of Mars about the early evolution of our solar system," said Marc Pircher, director of CNES's Toulouse Space Centre.

The mission's international science team includes researchers from Austria, Belgium, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, managed by the agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. The InSight spacecraft, including cruise stage and lander, was built and tested by Lockheed Martin Space Systems in Denver. It was delivered to Vandenberg Air Force Base, California, in December 2015 in preparation for launch, and returned to Lockheed Martin's Colorado facility last month for storage until spacecraft preparations resume in 2017.

NASA is on an ambitious journey to Mars that includes sending humans to the Red Planet, and that work remains on track. Robotic spacecraft are leading the way for NASA's Mars Exploration Program, with the upcoming Mars 2020 rover being designed and built, the Opportunity and Curiosity rovers exploring the Martian surface, the Odyssey and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spacecraft currently orbiting the planet, along with the Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution Mission (MAVEN) orbiter, which is helping scientists understand what happened to the Martian atmosphere.

NASA and CNES also are participating in ESA's (European Space Agency's) Mars Express mission currently operating at Mars. NASA is participating on ESA's 2016 and 2018 ExoMars missions, including providing telecommunication radios for ESA's 2016 orbiter and a critical element of a key astrobiology instrument on the 2018 ExoMars rover.

For addition information about the mission, visit:

http://www.nasa.gov/insight

More information about NASA's journey to Mars is available online at:

http://www.nasa.gov/journeytomars
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/09/2016 01:21 pm
Yaaaa!!! :) :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/09/2016 02:17 pm
I hope CNES are coughing up some money towards extra costs of the delay (preferably at least 50%) being as it was caused entirely by them.

Also if this decision does impact the next round of Discovery missions I'd rather it have been axed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/09/2016 02:56 pm
A quick article on this news (with some quotes from Lockheed Martin that they kindly sent to us....along with the offer of interviews, so that's nice of them!)

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/03/mars-receive-nasa-insight-end-2018/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 03/09/2016 03:08 pm
Doesn't say from which launch site.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 03/09/2016 03:32 pm
Doesn't say from which launch site.

Vandy was the previous option, yes?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: kevin-rf on 03/09/2016 03:46 pm
Doesn't say from which launch site.
Does that mean the launch site is still up in the air?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/09/2016 04:07 pm
1-I hope CNES are coughing up some money towards extra costs of the delay (preferably at least 50%) being as it was caused entirely by them.

2-Also if this decision does impact the next round of Discovery missions I'd rather it have been axed.

1-The partners agree on no exchange of funds, so CNES cannot really send money over to NASA for this. I am sure that they will offer their good will. However, NASA screwed over ESA on ExoMars, and that was sorta a big deal too. NASA did not pay ESA for the rocket that NASA was supposed to provide.

2-It will not prevent the selection of another Discovery. It might impact the selection of two. But I'd also note that without InSight, NASA would only have two planetary launches in the next five years (OSIRIS-REx and Mars 2020), and trading InSight for Discovery does not improve the cadence of missions or the overall health of the planetary science program.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Sam Ho on 03/09/2016 04:30 pm
Here's the official announcement: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=5746 (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=5746)

NASA Targets May 2018 Launch of Mars InSight Mission

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, will redesign, build and conduct qualifications of the new vacuum enclosure for the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS), the component that failed in December. CNES will lead instrument level integration and test activities, allowing the InSight Project to take advantage of each organization's proven strengths. The two agencies have worked closely together to establish a project schedule that accommodates these plans, and scheduled interim reviews over the next six months to assess technical progress and continued feasibility.

From the announcement, it sounds like they are going to scrap the CNES vacuum enclosure, and have JPL build a new one.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/09/2016 08:41 pm

1-I hope CNES are coughing up some money towards extra costs of the delay (preferably at least 50%) being as it was caused entirely by them.

2-Also if this decision does impact the next round of Discovery missions I'd rather it have been axed.

1-The partners agree on no exchange of funds, so CNES cannot really send money over to NASA for this. I am sure that they will offer their good will. However, NASA screwed over ESA on ExoMars, and that was sorta a big deal too. NASA did not pay ESA for the rocket that NASA was supposed to provide.

2-It will not prevent the selection of another Discovery. It might impact the selection of two. But I'd also note that without InSight, NASA would only have two planetary launches in the next five years (OSIRIS-REx and Mars 2020), and trading InSight for Discovery does not improve the cadence of missions or the overall health of the planetary science program.

That first one seems an unfortunate state of affairs.

The second if it stops a second selection would be a shame.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jgoldader on 03/09/2016 09:39 pm

1-The partners agree on no exchange of funds, so CNES cannot really send money over to NASA for this. I am sure that they will offer their good will. However, NASA screwed over ESA on ExoMars, and that was sorta a big deal too. NASA did not pay ESA for the rocket that NASA was supposed to provide.

2-It will not prevent the selection of another Discovery. It might impact the selection of two. But I'd also note that without InSight, NASA would only have two planetary launches in the next five years (OSIRIS-REx and Mars 2020), and trading InSight for Discovery does not improve the cadence of missions or the overall health of the planetary science program.

NASA's paying the cost of the delay AND new enclosure?  Is this right?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 03/09/2016 10:47 pm
Animation of NASA's InSight

Published on Mar 9, 2016
NASA animation of the proposed InSight (Interior exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport) Lander deploying its instruments.

https://youtu.be/on0VP25M3j8
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NovaSilisko on 03/10/2016 02:55 am
The second if it stops a second selection would be a shame.

Picking two at once wouldn't mean the simultanious development of two, would it? I thought it meant just deciding early on what the next two discovery missions would be, at the normal cadence.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 03/10/2016 03:44 am
The second if it stops a second selection would be a shame.

Picking two at once wouldn't mean the simultanious development of two, would it? I thought it meant just deciding early on what the next two discovery missions would be, at the normal cadence.
In FY19 & FY20, the Discovery program budget is expected to be around $340M/year.  If the next two Discovery missions were pushed out by 6 months each, that would cover the additional $150M for InSight.

Jim Green said that he's asked each of the competing mission teams to provide alternative launch dates because mission phasing would be important.

Regardless, this is no better science that can be bought for $150M than flying InSight.  This is the best decision in my opinion.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 03/10/2016 05:39 am
a demonstrator SEIS instrument at last year's Paris air show
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18370590053/in/album-72157654838335682/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/10/2016 06:02 am
The second if it stops a second selection would be a shame.

Picking two at once wouldn't mean the simultanious development of two, would it? I thought it meant just deciding early on what the next two discovery missions would be, at the normal cadence.
In FY19 & FY20, the Discovery program budget is expected to be around $340M/year.  If the next two Discovery missions were pushed out by 6 months each, that would cover the additional $150M for InSight.

Jim Green said that he's asked each of the competing mission teams to provide alternative launch dates because mission phasing would be important.

Regardless, this is no better science that can be bought for $150M than flying InSight.  This is the best decision in my opinion.
Depends what your science priorities are.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: GClark on 03/10/2016 06:55 am
Doesn't say from which launch site.

Vandy was the previous option, yes?

According to the presentation at MEPAG, VAFB is still the launch site.

See here - http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/11_2016-0302%20MEPAG.pdf (http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/11_2016-0302%20MEPAG.pdf)

Shameless plug:  Link via Van Kane's Future Planetary Exploration blog - futureplanets.blogspot.com (http://futureplanets.blogspot.com)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: fvandrog on 03/10/2016 07:54 am
From the announcement, it sounds like they are going to scrap the CNES vacuum enclosure, and have JPL build a new one.

JPL was already involved in the current iteration of the instrument, I couldn't find out for which aspects.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 03/10/2016 11:05 am

Doesn't say from which launch site.

Vandy was the previous option, yes?

According to the presentation at MEPAG, VAFB is still the launch site.

See here - http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/11_2016-0302%20MEPAG.pdf (http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-03/11_2016-0302%20MEPAG.pdf)

Shameless plug:  Link via Van Kane's Future Planetary Exploration blog - futureplanets.blogspot.com (http://futureplanets.blogspot.com)

Is there some particular reason that means it has to launch from VAFB?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 03/10/2016 11:22 am

Doesn't say from which launch site.
Does that mean the launch site is still up in the air?
No, the launch site is probably still on the ground. Ugh, sorry - couldn't help myself...!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/10/2016 12:50 pm
Picking two at once wouldn't mean the simultanious development of two, would it? I thought it meant just deciding early on what the next two discovery missions would be, at the normal cadence.

Not necessarily, but that is still how they want to do it--it's still the preferred choice.

Look at it this way: you plan a project so that all your people will be able to start on January 1. They take their vacations, quit other jobs, clear their calendars. Then you tell them that they won't start until September 1. A lot of those people are going to take on other work and tell you to go pound sand. Then on September 1 you no longer have your prime work force. You may even be missing key people.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 03/10/2016 01:11 pm
Picking two at once wouldn't mean the simultanious development of two, would it? I thought it meant just deciding early on what the next two discovery missions would be, at the normal cadence.

Not necessarily, but that is still how they want to do it--it's still the preferred choice.

Look at it this way: you plan a project so that all your people will be able to start on January 1. They take their vacations, quit other jobs, clear their calendars. Then you tell them that they won't start until September 1. A lot of those people are going to take on other work and tell you to go pound sand. Then on September 1 you no longer have your prime work force. You may even be missing key people.
Jim Green has said that what he'd like to do is to hold a Discovery competition (which is very expensive both for NASA and the proposing teams) every four years and select two missions that would launch approximately two years apart.  This would achieve the Decadal goal of 5 missions per decade.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/10/2016 03:00 pm
Picking two at once wouldn't mean the simultanious development of two, would it? I thought it meant just deciding early on what the next two discovery missions would be, at the normal cadence.

Not necessarily, but that is still how they want to do it--it's still the preferred choice.

Look at it this way: you plan a project so that all your people will be able to start on January 1. They take their vacations, quit other jobs, clear their calendars. Then you tell them that they won't start until September 1. A lot of those people are going to take on other work and tell you to go pound sand. Then on September 1 you no longer have your prime work force. You may even be missing key people.
Jim Green has said that what he'd like to do is to hold a Discovery competition (which is very expensive both for NASA and the proposing teams) every four years and select two missions that would launch approximately two years apart.  This would achieve the Decadal goal of 5 missions per decade.

There's a difference between launch dates and start dates. The phasing is important. Look at the example of what happened with Juno--they got selected and then immediately put on hold because there was not enough money to fully fund the project. If memory serves, the delay was over a year (two?) and cost close to $100 million. You cannot announce a winner and then tell them the start date is delayed, because people and companies plan their schedules to the start date and will go do other work instead.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 03/10/2016 11:43 pm
Did I understood correctly and the 150M includes a lot of money that would be spent anyways on the mission even if it was launched today, but NASA can't carry that money forward and will probably be lost these two years?
Can't they use some of that money to accelerate funding of the other two Discoveries and to make the differences "small" (like in under 50M)?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: AegeanBlue on 03/11/2016 12:12 am
When last year the active planetary science missions came about $8 mil NASA gave away that money in grants to accelerate the next Discovery missions. On the other hand in other years NASA moved money from Planetary to Earth Science in order to cover shortfalls there. Federal spend it or lose it rules mean that NASA will most likely spend that money rather than give it back to Treasury. The question is where. For all we know they could end up on HEOMD if they have a cost overrun this year. Other posters here probably know more than me the outsider
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/11/2016 11:48 am
Did I understood correctly and the 150M includes a lot of money that would be spent anyways on the mission even if it was launched today, but NASA can't carry that money forward and will probably be lost these two years?
Can't they use some of that money to accelerate funding of the other two Discoveries and to make the differences "small" (like in under 50M)?

I think that one thing they are doing is applying the money they would spend operating InSight in the next two years to the delay. That reduces the amount of new money needed in the near-term. But of course once they launch the spacecraft they still need to spend operating money. So it is still going to cost more than if there was no delay.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 03/12/2016 04:32 pm
Well, yes, I understand that developing a new vacuum enclosure, spacecraft storage and element re-qualification, the engineering standing army and all that will cost extra money. I'm just saying that it will not be the whole 150M. And thus the impact of the delay to the Discovery program should be a short fall of (wild guess) 50M to 100M. Which while important it would seem manageable.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/12/2016 05:24 pm
Well, yes, I understand that developing a new vacuum enclosure, spacecraft storage and element re-qualification, the engineering standing army and all that will cost extra money. I'm just saying that it will not be the whole 150M. And thus the impact of the delay to the Discovery program should be a short fall of (wild guess) 50M to 100M. Which while important it would seem manageable.

I believe that the $150 million is the actual "cost" of the delay--meaning the new money that will be required.

But we'll see what NASA says in a few weeks.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 03/12/2016 07:38 pm
Well, yes, I understand that developing a new vacuum enclosure, spacecraft storage and element re-qualification, the engineering standing army and all that will cost extra money. I'm just saying that it will not be the whole 150M. And thus the impact of the delay to the Discovery program should be a short fall of (wild guess) 50M to 100M. Which while important it would seem manageable.

I believe that the $150 million is the actual "cost" of the delay--meaning the new money that will be required.

But we'll see what NASA says in a few weeks.
NASA had ~$150M budgeted for InSight for the next two years.  Those costs will need to be shifted out two years.  There will also be new costs for the 2016-2017 period to fix the instrument and to keep the core team together.

Because the federal budget operates on a cash basis, any money not spent in the current fiscal year returns to the treasury.  So NASA can't simply bank the money it had planned to spend in 2016-2017 and spend it two years later.  It can, subject to many rules I don't pretend to understand in any detail, sign long term contracts (with the total amount counted as spent by the government even if the contractor spends their money later) and shift money among other projects (for example, pay for additional work in 2016-2018 on the Mars 2020 rover and then later use money planned for that rover for InSight).  How much this lessens the impact of the InSight delay isn't public yet, and it appears that NASA is still working this out with an announcement to come in August.

For all of us wondering if the InSight delay means the loss of a chance for NASA to pick a second Discovery mission, the options discussed above could help.  In addition, $150M is less than half of what NASA is projected to be spending on Discovery mission development by the end of the decade.  In theory, delaying the start of the next Discovery mission(s) by around six months might solve the cash flow problem and allow the selection of two Discovery missions.  Jim Green has said that mission phasing will be crucial, and all the Phase A teams have been asked to identify alternative launch dates.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/13/2016 12:42 am
http://www.nature.com/news/nasa-mars-woes-could-delay-other-planetary-missions-1.19549

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/29/2016 02:34 pm
Current status of NASA Mars program.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Don2 on 04/01/2016 09:41 pm
It seems to me that the best way to pay for the Insight delay would be to delay or cancel the Mars orbiter planned for the 2020s and use the funding for Discovery projects instead. Near term Discovery funds could then be shifted to Insight if necessary. The just launched European Trace Gas Orbiter has the basics needed for rover extended mission support. The camera is 5m resolution, and it carries an Electra relay payload.

If the science community plans to move ahead with sample return, then there will be no spare funds for future orbiters or landers after 2020. Everything that isn't directly related to sample return will have to be axed. NASA should try to get a few Discovery missions flown before the ramp-up in sample return funding kills off that program as well.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 04/02/2016 01:35 am
It seems to me that the best way to pay for the Insight delay would be to delay or cancel the Mars orbiter planned for the 2020s and use the funding for Discovery projects instead. Near term Discovery funds could then be shifted to Insight if necessary. The just launched European Trace Gas Orbiter has the basics needed for rover extended mission support. The camera is 5m resolution, and it carries an Electra relay payload.

Except that the Mars orbiter money doesn't exist yet, so it cannot be used to pay for InSight now. Plus, SMD was hoping that it could partially pay for that orbiter with STMD and HEO (tech and human spaceflight, respectively) money, so it's not going to be taking other directorates' money to pay for SMD's problem.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/02/2016 09:40 pm
It seems to me that the best way to pay for the Insight delay would be to delay or cancel the Mars orbiter planned for the 2020s and use the funding for Discovery projects instead. Near term Discovery funds could then be shifted to Insight if necessary. The just launched European Trace Gas Orbiter has the basics needed for rover extended mission support. The camera is 5m resolution, and it carries an Electra relay payload.

If the science community plans to move ahead with sample return, then there will be no spare funds for future orbiters or landers after 2020. Everything that isn't directly related to sample return will have to be axed. NASA should try to get a few Discovery missions flown before the ramp-up in sample return funding kills off that program as well.

The 2022 orbit is not only unfunded, but also the design isn't finalised. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: savuporo on 09/30/2016 03:24 am
IAC 2016 small updates

https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/781150498304819200
https://twitter.com/RussianSpaceWeb/status/781149744395456517

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 10/09/2016 10:15 am
MEPAG just updated after their meeting, including decent details abotu InSight's status:
http://mepag.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-10/04Banerdt_InSight.pdf (http://mepag.nasa.gov/meeting/2016-10/04Banerdt_InSight.pdf)

I looks like the seismometer problem they hope to lick in December and then finally load it onto the lander sometime mid-2017.  I really hope they bring us some good news this Xmas for us all.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/25/2017 03:28 pm
Some fresh news on InSight at last:
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2017/pdf/1896.pdf (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2017/pdf/1896.pdf)
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2017/pdf/1515.pdf (http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2017/pdf/1515.pdf)

Plenty of reiteration that the seismometer is fixed and InSight is safely in storage.  They even added a mirror to reflect future orbiting lasers apparently.

Also they showed the landing site, which we already knew was in Elysium but last we heard it was numerous sites there (granted they were all pretty much identically anyway).  Included is the landing ellipse and its rough coordinates.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/28/2017 06:39 pm
It's official now  8)
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/846780473116426240 (https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/846780473116426240)
Quote
Zurbuchen says that the seismometer instrument for the Insight Mars lander successfully passed testing last week.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 07/20/2017 05:32 am
Quote
Great news: #MarsInsight SEIS seismometer arrived from @CNES at @LockheedMartin in US; now s/c integration in time for '18 launch #goteam 🚀

https://twitter.com/dr_thomasz/status/887893632556072961 (https://twitter.com/dr_thomasz/status/887893632556072961)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 08/29/2017 03:56 am
Unique Look at the Mars InSight Spacecraft | 360-Degree Video

LockheedMartinVideos
Published on Aug 28, 2017


Get a unique perspective of the InSight spacecraft coming out of its shipping container in our Littleton, Colo. clean room.  InSight is the first mission to focus on examining the deep interior of Mars. Information gathered will boost understanding of how all rocky planets formed, including Earth.

https://youtu.be/Z6KCdKvXvcc?t=001

https://youtu.be/Z6KCdKvXvcc
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 11/04/2017 01:48 am
More Than 2.4 Million Names Are Going to Mars

Quote
Last month, NASA invited members of the public to send their names to Mars. And the public responded loud and clear.

More than 1.6 million people signed up to have their names etched on a microchip that will be carried on NASA's upcoming InSight mission, which launches in May of 2018.

NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, reopened the opportunity after it proved successful in 2015. During that open call, nearly 827,000 names were collected for a microchip that now sits on top of the robotic InSight lander.

Source: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6993
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/23/2017 12:03 am
Passes TVAC testing:
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/11/mars-insight-passes-tvac-testing-2018-launch/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Nomadd on 01/29/2018 09:49 pm
 Solar arrays work.
 https://www.space.com/39485-mars-insight-lander-solar-arrays-unfurled.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 03/30/2018 05:40 am
NASA Mars InSight Overview

NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Published on Mar 29, 2018

NASA's next mission to Mars is weeks away from its May 2018 launch. InSight is more than a Mars mission. Its team members hope to unlock the mysteries of the formation and evolution of rocky planets, including Earth.

https://youtu.be/LKLITDmm4NA?t=001

https://youtu.be/LKLITDmm4NA
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 03/30/2018 05:43 am
InSight: Digging Deep into Mars

NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Streamed live 9 hours ago

Original air date: Thursday, March 29 at 2 p.m. PT (5 p.m. ET, 2100 UTC)

NASA's Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) lander will study the deep interior of Mars to learn how all rocky planets formed, including Earth and its moon. The lander's instruments include a seismometer to detect marsquakes and a probe that will monitor the flow of heat in the planet's subsurface.

News briefing participants were:

• Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator for NASA’s Science Mission Directorate in Washington
• Bruce Banerdt, InSight principal investigator at JPL
• Tom Hoffman, InSight project manager at JPL
• Jaime Singer, InSight instrument deployment lead at JPL

InSight will be the first planetary spacecraft to take off from the West Coast. It's scheduled to launch May 5 aboard a United Launch Alliance Atlas V rocket from Space Launch Complex-3 at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. If pre-dawn skies are clear, the launch will be visible from Santa Maria to San Diego, California.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Hh3FeRrMU?t=001

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2Hh3FeRrMU
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/31/2018 10:40 pm
I'm excited  :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/01/2018 09:36 pm
4 days until launch...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: AegeanBlue on 05/02/2018 08:55 pm
CBS 47, a.k.a. KGPE, which serves Fresno, Visalia and the San Joaquin Valley will air a special on Insight on Friday's 7 pm news and will show the launch live from Vandenberg. They will show it on Saturday morning, but also Sunday and Monday in case of delay. So if you are willing to watch stay awake but not willing to drive 3 hours to and 3 hours from Lompoc, there is this option. Personally, I'll be in Lompoc
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dao Angkan on 05/02/2018 11:28 pm
InSight Diary: Mars mission ready to rumble (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43967633)

Quote
Prof Tom Pike from Imperial College London is part of the science team on the US-led InSight mission to Mars. His group has supplied seismometers that will enable the Nasa lander to detect "Marsquakes", which should reveal the internal structure of the Red Planet. Over the course of the coming months, Prof Pike will be updating us on InSight's progress. ...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/04/2018 11:18 pm
T-minus 11 hours now
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/04/2018 11:54 pm
T-minus 11 hours now

Make that 12 (at the time you posted)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/05/2018 05:00 am
T-minus 11 hours now

Make that 12 (at the time you posted)

6 hours........and 4 minutes.  Happy? eeergo?  :P ;)  I'll be happy once it's in orbit myself.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/05/2018 05:29 am
6 hours........and 4 minutes.  Happy? eeergo?  :P ;)  I'll be happy once it's in orbit myself.

Take into account people may be using your post to figure out when to watch (including myself), especially if you're only posting a time.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/05/2018 03:57 pm
InSight and the cubesat twins, Eva and Wall-E, are now officially en route to Mars.  :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mlindner on 05/05/2018 09:00 pm
Is this the thread for discussion of MarCO as well? Does it have a separate thread?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Joffan on 05/06/2018 12:53 am
Is this the thread for discussion of MarCO as well? Does it have a separate thread?

I'm going to assume MarCO A and B  go along here with InSight and report that they are both alive and well:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo

Quote from: NASA
NASA's First Deep-Space CubeSats Say: 'Polo!'

NASA has received radio signals indicating that the first-ever CubeSats headed to deep space are alive and well. The first signal was received at 12:15 p.m. PST (3:15 p.m. EST) today; the second at 1:58 p.m. PST (4:58 p.m. EST). Engineers will now be performing a series of checks before both CubeSats enter their cruise to deep space.

Mars Cube One, or MarCO, is a pair of briefcase-sized spacecraft that launched along with NASA's InSight Mars lander at 4:05 a.m. PDT (7:05 a.m. EDT) today from Vandenberg Air Force Base in Central California. InSight is a scientific mission that will probe the Red Planet's deep interior for the first time; the name stands for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport.

The twin MarCO CubeSats are on their own separate mission: rather than collecting science, they will follow the InSight lander on its cruise to Mars, testing out miniature spacecraft technology along the way.

Both were programmed to unfold their solar panels soon after launch, followed by several opportunities to radio back their health.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 05/06/2018 01:25 pm
Is this the thread for discussion of MarCO as well? Does it have a separate thread?

I'm going to assume MarCO A and B  go along here with InSight and report that they are both alive and well:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo)

Does the  MarCO pair remain physically attached to Insight until after any mid-course and final corrections are made? Do they go into Martian orbit or continue on deeper into the solar system?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Hungry4info3 on 05/06/2018 01:58 pm
The MarCO pair were never physically attached to InSight. They were deployed like regular cubesats from the Centaur after InSight was deployed. They do not go into orbit around Mars, but fly past it and then remain in a heliocentric orbit.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deruch on 05/06/2018 02:19 pm
Is this the thread for discussion of MarCO as well? Does it have a separate thread?

I'm going to assume MarCO A and B  go along here with InSight and report that they are both alive and well:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo)

Does the  MarCO pair remain physically attached to Insight until after any mid-course and final corrections are made? Do they go into Martian orbit or continue on deeper into the solar system?

MarCO A & B are independent free flyers and one of the technologies they are testing is a new cold gas propulsion system which is capable of making all the TCMs and attitude controls (this is in addition to the DSN-capable, software defined radio [X-band and UHF] sized for cubesats and the high gain, X-band reflectarray antenna).  During launch, their deployers were integrated on Centaur's Aft Bulkhead Carrier.  So, they weren't ever inside the payload shroud or attached to Insight.  They fly the whole way separately and are each controlled individually--not even as a pair.  They'll be placed on a Mars flyby trajectory that will hopefully be timed and localized such that they'll be in the right position to capture UHF signals (low- or mid-gain) from Insight during her EDL and more or less instantly retransmit them back to DSN via the X-band (high-gain).  After that, they'll again re-transmit about an hour later.  They also have a color, narrow-field camera with a 6.8-degree diagonal field-of-view pointed in the direction of the UHF antenna, so hopefully they'll be able to see Insight during the EDL and will be taking pictures.  I would guess that any images would be sent back during the later re-transmit period or anyways after their initial data relay task.  After that they just continue past Mars on their heliocentric orbit.  There aren't currently any plans to do anything else with them, but I expect JPL will at least continue running them for a while to see how they and their components hold up over time in deep space.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press_kits/insight/appendix/mars-cube-one/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/06/2018 04:46 pm
The next big event for InSight will be the 1st Trajectory Maneuver, scheduled for May 15.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 05/06/2018 04:54 pm
I prefer a separate thread for MarCO too. I'll report this and let's see what the mods say
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/06/2018 04:55 pm
Is this the thread for discussion of MarCO as well? Does it have a separate thread?

We could have a sep thread. Want to set one up (I can, but later as I'm busy - so if you've got time, fire away) :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 05/06/2018 10:00 pm
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo)

The article includes this:

"They each have a special antenna to relay InSight's vital signs during the infamous "Seven Minutes of Terror," the crucial phase which has claimed the majority of humanity's probes sent to land on the Red Planet."

But is this true?  What has been sent to land on the Red Planet, and failed during those seven minutes?

Mars 1                      fail earlier
Zond 2                      fail earlier
Mars 2                       fail during EDL
Mars 3                       Successful landing (then fail)
Mars 6                       fail during EDL
Mars 7                       miss Mars
Viking 1                     Successful landing
Viking 2                     Successful landing
Mars Pathfinder         Successful landing
Mars Polar Lander      fail during EDL
Deep Space 2 (1)       fail during EDL
Deep Space 2 (2)       fail during EDL
Beagle 2                    Successful landing (then fail)
Spirit                          Successful landing
Opportunity               Successful landing
Phoenix                     Successful landing
Curiosity                    Successful landing
Schiaparelli                fail during EDL

Did I miss anything?  That looks like 18 attempts to land on Mars, 9 successes, 6 failures during EDL (the seven minutes), and 3 other failures.  The stats are not as bad as people often say.  I suppose it adds drama, but actually we as a species are pretty good at this, and the US is even better.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Alpha_Centauri on 05/06/2018 10:16 pm
I think what they were getting at, just poorly worded, was that of all the mars missions that have failed the majority did so during the "seven minutes of terror".
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/07/2018 02:14 am
I think what they were getting at, just poorly worded, was that of all the mars missions that have failed the majority did so during the "seven minutes of terror".

Indeed, and although the majority were Soviet missions both Europe and the United States have suffered failures during those seven minutes.  InSight has the advantage of using a proven design and two "bonus years" of preparations (due to the seismometer delay), and when its turn comes MarCO will be able to relay the telemetry so there will be no blindspots of communications (just lightspeed lag), ensuring we'll know if and why it fails.  And due to Elysium Planitia being flat, there's minimal danger from landing site itself, so any failures will be of a technical issue.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: TakeOff on 05/07/2018 11:13 am
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/8334/nasas-first-deep-space-cubesats-say-polo)

The article includes this:

"They each have a special antenna to relay InSight's vital signs during the infamous "Seven Minutes of Terror," the crucial phase which has claimed the majority of humanity's probes sent to land on the Red Planet."

But is this true?  What has been sent to land on the Red Planet, and failed during those seven minutes?

Mars 1                      fail earlier
Zond 2                      fail earlier
Mars 2                       fail during EDL
Mars 3                       Successful landing (then fail)
Mars 6                       fail during EDL
Mars 7                       miss Mars
Viking 1                     Successful landing
Viking 2                     Successful landing
Mars Pathfinder         Successful landing
Mars Polar Lander      fail during EDL
Deep Space 2 (1)       fail during EDL
Deep Space 2 (2)       fail during EDL
Beagle 2                    Successful landing (then fail)
Spirit                          Successful landing
Opportunity               Successful landing
Phoenix                     Successful landing
Curiosity                    Successful landing
Schiaparelli                fail during EDL

Did I miss anything?  That looks like 18 attempts to land on Mars, 9 successes, 6 failures during EDL (the seven minutes), and 3 other failures.  The stats are not as bad as people often say.  I suppose it adds drama, but actually we as a species are pretty good at this, and the US is even better.
I think you miss a few there. Wikipedia lists 54 attempts to reach Mars before InSight. Some recent failures omitted in your list are all four Soviet/Russians attempts to Mars the last 30+ years, Phobos 1 and 2, Mars 96 and Phobos-grunt, as well as NASA's Mars Observer and Climate Orbiter. But it is true that the Marco cubesats wouldn't have been very helpful for most of those failures. JAXA's small solid rocket launched Nozomi Mars orbiter failed because of "running out of fuel before reaching Mars", Wiki says.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hop on 05/07/2018 05:47 pm
I think you miss a few there. Wikipedia lists 54 attempts to reach Mars before InSight.
Phil's list is attempted landings only, not orbiters, since the question concerns EDL failures.

Regarding the list:
My impression is that for Beagle 2, failure mode is unknown. Although we now know it made it to the surface mostly in one piece, it's unclear whether it had a hard landing or was otherwise damaged earlier. So while it may or may not have failed in the "7 minutes of terror" it does reinforce the argument for real-time EDL telemetry.

Mars 3 did return some telemetry but failure mode is also unknown, so I'm not sure how certain the "successful landing" classification is there either.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: matthewkantar on 05/07/2018 06:36 pm
Actually, Beagle 2 was photographed from orbit some time ago, it appears the failure was due to two of it's solar panels failing to deploy, leaving it cut off.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 05/07/2018 06:47 pm
Actually, Beagle 2 was photographed from orbit some time ago, it appears the failure was due to two of it's solar panels failing to deploy, leaving it cut off.
There had been some speculation that the case was bent due to a hard landing. The panels would then have then caught on the case as they tried to deploy. If that is what happened then it was an EDL failure because the landing system failed to provide a gentle enough touchdown. Regardless of how many probes have failed during ELD its clear that Mars is hard.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NGCHunter on 05/08/2018 04:12 pm
Here's some ground based telescope tracking I did of InSight shortly a couple of hours after the final Centaur burn and spacecraft separation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDkXlyEBwWI
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/08/2018 11:11 pm
Countdown to landing now at 201 days and 20 hours to Elysium...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 05/15/2018 08:45 pm
A Pale Blue Dot, As Seen by a CubeSat

NASA's Voyager 1 took a classic portrait of Earth from several billion miles away in 1990. Now a class of tiny, boxy spacecraft, known as CubeSats, have just taken their own version of a "pale blue dot" image, capturing Earth and its moon in one shot.

NASA set a new distance record for CubeSats on May 8 when a pair of CubeSats called Mars Cube One (MarCO) reached 621,371 miles (1 million kilometers) from Earth. One of the CubeSats, called MarCO-B (and affectionately known as "Wall-E" to the MarCO team) used a fisheye camera to snap its first photo on May 9. That photo is part of the process used by the engineering team to confirm the spacecraft's high-gain antenna has properly unfolded.

As a bonus, it captured Earth and its moon as tiny specks floating in space.

"Consider it our homage to Voyager," said Andy Klesh, MarCO's chief engineer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California. JPL built the CubeSats and leads the MarCO mission. "CubeSats have never gone this far into space before, so it's a big milestone. Both our CubeSats are healthy and functioning properly. We're looking forward to seeing them travel even farther."

The MarCO spacecraft are the first CubeSats ever launched to deep space. Most never go beyond Earth orbit; they generally stay below 497 miles (800 kilometers) above the planet. Though they were originally developed to teach university students about satellites, CubeSats are now a major commercial technology, providing data on everything from shipping routes to environmental changes.

The MarCO CubeSats were launched on May 5 along with NASA's InSight lander, a spacecraft that will touch down on Mars and study the planet's deep interior for the first time. InSight, short for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport, will attempt to land on Mars on Nov. 26. JPL also leads the InSight mission.

Mars landings are notoriously challenging due to the Red Planet's thin atmosphere. The MarCO CubeSats will follow along behind InSight during its cruise to Mars. Should they make it all the way to Mars, they will radio back data about InSight while it enters the atmosphere and descends to the planet's surface. The high-gain antennas are key to that effort; the MarCO team have early confirmation that the antennas have successfully deployed, but will continue to test them in the weeks ahead.

InSight won't rely on the MarCO mission for data relay. That job will fall to NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. But the MarCOs could be a pathfinder so that future missions can "bring their own relay" to Mars. They could also demonstrate a number of experimental technologies, including their antennas, radios and propulsion systems, which will allow CubeSats to collect science in the future.

Later this month, the MarCOs will attempt the first trajectory correction maneuvers ever performed by CubeSats. This maneuver lets them steer towards Mars, blazing a trail for CubeSats to come.

For more information about MarCO, visit:

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cubesat/missions/marco.php

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/spaceimages/details.php?id=PIA22323
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deruch on 05/17/2018 12:55 am
A Pale Blue Dot, As Seen by a CubeSat

Why didn't you include the picture?

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/spaceimages/details.php?id=PIA22323
credit:NASA/JPL-Caltech
Quote from: image caption
The first image captured by one of NASA's Mars Cube One (MarCO) CubeSats. The image, which shows both the CubeSat's unfolded high-gain antenna at right and the Earth and its moon in the center, was acquired by MarCO-B on May 9.

MarCO is a pair of small spacecraft accompanying NASA's InSight (Interior Investigations Using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport) lander. Together, MarCO-A and MarCO-B are the first CubeSats ever sent to deep space. InSight is the first mission to ever explore Mars' deep interior.

If the MarCO CubeSats make the entire journey to Mars, they will attempt to relay data about InSight back to Earth as the lander enters the Martian atmosphere and lands. MarCO will not collect any science, but are intended purely as a technology demonstration. They could serve as a pathfinder for future CubeSat missions.

The MarCO and InSight projects are managed for NASA's Science Mission Directorate, Washington, by JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 05/17/2018 05:56 am
I haven’t been able to embed pictures with Tapatalk.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: dsmillman on 05/20/2018 06:31 pm
Insight was supposed to perform a Trajectory Correction Maneuver (TCM) on L + 10 days (May 15).
This TCM is supposed to undo the intentional Mars miss distance implemented during the launch phase.
Does anyone know if this TCM has been conducted?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 05/24/2018 11:16 am
InSight performed first TCM:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/news/2018/insight-steers-toward-mars
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mlindner on 06/13/2018 09:49 am
First TCM done for the MarCOs, but MarCO-B seems to have a leaking thruster valve which is putting a constant small thrust on the spacecraft so they're examining it carefully and thrusting slowly.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7147
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 08/22/2018 08:29 pm
NASA's InSight Passes Halfway to Mars, Instruments Check In

NASA's InSight spacecraft, en route to a Nov. 26 landing on Mars, passed the halfway mark on Aug. 6. All of its instruments have been tested and are working well.

As of Aug. 20, the spacecraft had covered 172 million miles (277 million kilometers) since its launch 107 days ago. In another 98 days, it will travel another 129 million miles (208 million kilometers) and touch down in Mars' Elysium Planitia region, where it will be the first mission to study the Red Planet's deep interior. InSight stands for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport.

The InSight team is using the time before the spacecraft's arrival at Mars to not only plan and practice for that critical day, but also to activate and check spacecraft subsystems vital to cruise, landing and surface operations, including the highly sensitive science instruments.

InSight's seismometer, which will be used to detect quakes on Mars, received a clean bill of health on July 19. The SEIS instrument (Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure) is a six-sensor seismometer combining two types of sensors to measure ground motions over a wide range of frequencies. It will give scientists a window into Mars' internal activity.

"We did our final performance checks on July 19, which were successful," said Bruce Banerdt, principal investigator of InSight from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California.

The team also checked an instrument that will measure the amount of heat escaping from Mars. After being placed on the surface, InSight's Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3) instrument will use a self-hammering mechanical mole burrowing to a depth of 10 to 16 feet (3 to 5 meters). Measurements by sensors on the mole and on a science tether from the mole to the surface will yield the first precise determination of the amount of heat escaping from the planet's interior. The checkout consisted of powering on the main electronics for the instrument, performing checks of its instrument sensor elements, exercising some of the instrument's internal heaters, and reading out the stored settings in the electronics module.

The third of InSight's three main investigations -- Rotation and Interior Structure Experiment (RISE) -- uses the spacecraft's radio connection with Earth to assess perturbations of Mars' rotation axis. These measurements can provide information about the planet's core.

"We have been using the spacecraft's radio since launch day, and our conversations with InSight have been very cordial, so we are good to go with RISE as well," said Banerdt.

The lander's cameras checked out fine as well, taking a spacecraft selfie of the inside of the spacecraft's backshell. InSight Project Manager Tom Hoffman from JPL said that, "If you are an engineer on InSight, that first glimpse of the heat shield blanket, harness tie-downs and cover bolts is a very reassuring sight as it tells us our Instrument Context Camera is operating perfectly. The next picture we plan to take with this camera will be of the surface of Mars."

If all goes as planned, thecamera will take the first image of Elysium Planitia minutes after InSight touches down on Mars.

JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, managed by the agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. The InSight spacecraft, including cruise stage and lander, was built and tested by Lockheed Martin Space in Denver.

A number of European partners, including France's Centre National d'Études Spatiales (CNES) and the German Aerospace Center (DLR), are supporting the InSight mission. CNES provided the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS) instrument, with significant contributions from the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research (MPS) in Germany, the Swiss Institute of Technology (ETH) in Switzerland, Imperial College and Oxford University in the United Kingdom, and JPL. DLR provided the Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3) instrument.

For more information about InSight, and to follow along on its flight to Mars, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 08/23/2018 07:30 am
August 22, 2018
MEDIA ADVISORY M18-126

NASA Invites Media to Cover InSight Mars Landing Activities at Jet Propulsion Laboratory
 

Media are invited to apply for credentials to cover activities at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory for the landing of the agency’s Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) mission on Mars at about noon PST Nov. 26.

JPL, located in Pasadena, California, manages the mission and will open its InSight landing newsroom to media beginning Nov. 21 for tours, interviews with mission experts, news conferences, and live coverage of the landing.

To begin the credentialing process, media must send their full name, title, email address, phone number, media outlet name, and editor’s name and contact information to Elena Mejia at [email protected].

•U.S. citizens or green card holders representing U.S. media outlets must submit a credential request no later than noon Monday, Sept. 24.
•Media who are not U.S. citizens or green card holders, and U.S. media working for international media outlets, must submit a credential request no later than noon Monday, Sept. 10.

All media must be approved for credentials to attend any events for the InSight landing. Additional details and updates will be announced as they become available.

InSight will study the deep interior of Mars, taking the planet's vital signs, including its pulse and temperature. This makes InSight the first mission to give Mars a thorough checkup since the planet formed 4.5 billion years ago. Data will help us better understand how other rocky planets, including Earth, were and are created.

JPL manages the InSight mission for the agency’s Science Mission Directorate in Washington. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, managed by its Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. The spacecraft, including cruise stage and lander, was built and tested by Lockheed Martin Space in Denver. Several European partners, including France's space agency, the Centre National d'Étude Spatiales, and the German Aerospace Center, are supporting the mission.

For more information about InSight, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 08/24/2018 04:25 am

The lander's cameras checked out fine as well, taking a spacecraft selfie of the inside of the spacecraft's backshell. InSight Project Manager Tom Hoffman from JPL said that, "If you are an engineer on InSight, that first glimpse of the heat shield blanket, harness tie-downs and cover bolts is a very reassuring sight as it tells us our Instrument Context Camera is operating perfectly. The next picture we plan to take with this camera will be of the surface of Mars."

Here's that shot of the backshell.  A 24-second exposure.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 09/02/2018 07:35 pm
While we wait for InSight to land 2 months hence, I have a question regarding seismology...

Assuming one can get 3 or 4 probes with seismometers onboard (including or excluding InSight itself), how far apart do they need to be placed to get a good "view" of the core and interior?  The most obvious answer would be equidistant across the globe, but can they be clustered in the same region or even landing ellipse and still figure out the core and mantle ?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 09/02/2018 09:17 pm
While we wait for InSight to land 2 months hence, I have a question regarding seismology...

Assuming one can get 3 or 4 probes with seismometers onboard (including or excluding InSight itself), how far apart do they need to be placed to get a good "view" of the core and interior?  The most obvious answer would be equidistant across the globe, but can they be clustered in the same region or even landing ellipse and still figure out the core and mantle ?
Prior studies have proposed a rough triangle a few hundred kms on a side with one station on approximately the opposite side of the planet.

You might want to search for the old French Netlander plans.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jbenton on 09/02/2018 09:55 pm
While we wait for InSight to land 2 months hence, I have a question regarding seismology...

Assuming one can get 3 or 4 probes with seismometers onboard (including or excluding InSight itself), how far apart do they need to be placed to get a good "view" of the core and interior?  The most obvious answer would be equidistant across the globe, but can they be clustered in the same region or even landing ellipse and still figure out the core and mantle ?
Prior studies have proposed a rough triangle a few hundred kms on a side with one station on approximately the opposite side of the planet.

You might want to search for the old French Netlander plans.

Or the 2013 Decadal Survey, if you want to go really in-depth. They discussed the possibility of a network of Lunar Geophysical Station - Network or a network of Martian Geophysical Stations (or as I would like to say - Selenophysical and areophysical respectively)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Yeknom-Ecaps on 09/28/2018 08:49 pm
The second Trajectory Correction Maneuver was scheduled for end of July (121 days before landing) - did it take place?

Thanks.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 10/22/2018 09:56 pm
NASA's First Image of Mars from a CubeSat (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7263)

NASA's MarCO mission was designed to find out if briefcase-sized spacecraft called CubeSats could survive the journey to deep space. Now, MarCO - which stands for Mars Cube One - has Mars in sight.

One of the twin MarCO CubeSats snapped this image of Mars on Oct. 3 - the first image of the Red Planet ever produced by this class of tiny, low-cost spacecraft. The two CubeSats are officially called MarCO-A and MarCO-B but nicknamed "EVE" and "Wall-E" by their engineering team.

A wide-angle camera on top of MarCO-B produced the image as a test of exposure settings. The MarCO mission, led by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, hopes to produce more images as the CubeSats approach Mars ahead of Nov. 26. That's when they'll demonstrate their communications capabilities while NASA's InSight spacecraft attempts to land on the Red Planet. (The InSight mission won't rely on them, however; NASA's Mars orbiters will be relaying the spacecraft's data back to Earth.)

This image was taken from a distance of roughly 8 million miles (12.8 million kilometers) from Mars. The MarCOs are "chasing" Mars, which is a moving target as it orbits the Sun. In order to be in place for InSight's landing, the CubeSats have to travel roughly 53 million miles (85 million kilometers). They have already traveled 248 million miles (399 million kilometers).

MarCO-B's wide-angle camera looks straight out from the deck of the CubeSat. Parts related to the spacecraft's high-gain antenna are visible on either side of the image. Mars appears as a small red dot at the right of the image.

To take the image, the MarCO team had to program the CubeSat to rotate in space so that the deck of its boxy "body" was pointing at Mars. After several test images, they were excited to see that clear, red pinprick.

"We've been waiting six months to get to Mars," said Cody Colley, MarCO's mission manager at JPL. "The cruise phase of the mission is always difficult, so you take all the small wins when they come. Finally seeing the planet is definitely a big win for the team."

For more information about MarCO, visit:

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cubesat/missions/marco.php
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 10/24/2018 09:27 am
https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1054776052470280192
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 10/26/2018 08:35 am
October 25, 2018
MEDIA ADVISORY M18-159

NASA to Host Briefing on November Mars InSight Landing

NASA's upcoming landing of the first-ever mission to study the heart of Mars will be the topic of a media briefing at 1:30 p.m. EDT Wednesday, Oct. 31 at NASA Headquarters in Washington. The briefing will air live on NASA Television, the agency's website and the NASA InSight Facebook page.

NASA's InSight Mars Lander (Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport) will land on the Red Planet at approximately 3 p.m. EST (noon PST) Monday, Nov. 26. InSight will study the deep interior of Mars to learn how all celestial bodies with rocky surfaces, including Earth and the Moon, formed. The lander’s instruments include a seismometer to detect marsquakes and a probe to monitor the flow of heat in the planet's subsurface.

Briefing participants include:
•Lori Glaze, acting director of the Planetary Science Division, NASA Headquarters
•Bruce Banerdt, InSight principal investigator, NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory
•Tom Hoffman, InSight project manager at JPL
•Sue Smrekar, InSight deputy principal investigator at JPL
•Jaime Singer, InSight instrument deployment lead at JPL

Media not attending who would like to ask questions via phone during the event must provide their name and affiliation by noon EDT on Oct. 31, to JoAnnaWendel by email at [email protected].

The public can ask questions on Twitter using the hashtag #askNASA or by leaving a comment on the stream of the event on the NASA InSight Facebook page.

For more information about InSight, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/insight

Follow the mission on Twitter at:

https://twitter.com/nasainsight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 10/30/2018 03:06 am
NASA Launches 'On a Mission' Podcast


NASA Video
Published on Oct 29, 2018

The eight-episode series "On a Mission" follows the InSight lander as it travels hundreds of millions of miles and attempts to land on Mars on Nov. 26. Subscribe: https://www.nasa.gov/podcasts  "On a Mission" will be the first JPL podcast to track a mission during flight, through interviews with the InSight team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

https://youtu.be/A0CuFT_zzgs?t=001

https://youtu.be/A0CuFT_zzgs
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 10/31/2018 03:18 pm
Press conference in ~2h (1:30 pm EDT) ahead of landing in less than a month's time:

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1057659000211165184
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 10/31/2018 08:00 pm
I watched the InSight briefing, but wasn't able to focus on it to take notes.

For example: I didn't know that the MarCO cubesats were tasked with providing the only live relay of entry, descent, and landing data from InSightMRO will also receive for playback 3 hours later.

The young lady engineer at JPL, who was wearing an anti-static coat and groundwire to protect the ground test article, was a good addition to the presentation.  I don't think she is one of the people in the briefing personnel list?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: SciNews on 11/05/2018 08:06 pm
NASA InSight landing on Mars, including cubesats operations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaC_DsH7WRg
Elysium Planitia landing site
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zlF0hHuM84
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/06/2018 02:04 pm
This link (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%20%27YES%27&&TABLE_TYPE=%20%27VECTORS%27&&OUT_UNITS=%20%27KM-S%27&&REF_SYSTEM=%20%27J2000%27&&VEC_LABELS=%20%27YES%27&&CSV_FORMAT=%20%27YES%27&&OBJ_DATA=%20%27NO%27&&VEC_TABLE=%20%276%27&&STEP_SIZE=%20%271%20d%27&&START_TIME=%20%272018-11-6%2019:00%27&&STOP_TIME=%20%272018-11-26%2020:40%27&&COMMAND=%20%27-189%27&&CENTER=%20%27@499%27&&) to NASA Horizons tool (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi?s_tset=1#top) provides relative position and speed of Insight w.r.t Mars for next days up to 2018/11/26, when it is expected to enter Martian atmosphere.

Such data have been used to setup this graphical page:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration)

You can also use a link  (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%20%27YES%27&&TABLE_TYPE=%20%27VECTORS%27&&OUT_UNITS=%20%27KM-S%27&&REF_SYSTEM=%20%27J2000%27&&VEC_LABELS=%20%27YES%27&&CSV_FORMAT=%20%27YES%27&&OBJ_DATA=%20%27YES%27&&VEC_TABLE=%20%276%27&&STEP_SIZE=%20%271%20m%27&&START_TIME=%20%272018-11-26%2019:00%27&&STOP_TIME=%20%272018-11-26%2020:38%27&&COMMAND=%20%27-189%27&&CENTER=%20%27@499%27&&)which provides light time and range (RG) for last hours befor EDL.
This "prediction" currently gives a minimum distance of 35016m above Mars at 19:44, but data are updated after each Trajectory Correction Maneuver.


On Horizons page just click on show "batch-file" data link to show parameters to be used to (manually) build the link, by separating them by "&" rather than Carriage Return, and preceding them by https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&






Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/06/2018 02:15 pm
Next TCMs schedule (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/timeline/cruise/):
Nov. 11, 2018 - 15 days before landing TCM 4
Nov. 18, 2018 - 8 days before landing TCM 5
Nov. 25, 2018 - 22 hours before landing TCM 6


Atmosphere entry is scheduled for (https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/i/insight) "a little before 3 p.m. EST (12 p.m. PST)", which in scientific notation translates to (https://www.worldtimebuddy.com/?qm=1&lid=8,12,2988507&h=8&date=2018-11-26&sln=11.5-12) 2018/11/26 19:30
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/14/2018 04:43 pm



(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/timeline-broadcast.png)


https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7279 (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7279)
Quote
an uninterrupted, clean feed of cameras from inside JPL mission control, with mission audio only, will be available at the same time on the NASA TV Media Channel, at www.nasa.gov/ntv (http://www.nasa.gov/ntv)] and at https://www.youtube.com/user/JPLraw/live (https://www.youtube.com/user/JPLraw/live)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 11/18/2018 05:47 am
InSight: Landing on Mars


LockheedMartinVideos
Published on Nov 17, 2018

After a long journey, the InSight spacecraft will arrive at the Red Planet on November 26, 2018. Learn about the punishing entry, descent and landing sequence and what it takes to safely land on Mars.

https://youtu.be/C0lwFLPiZEE?t=001

https://youtu.be/C0lwFLPiZEE
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/18/2018 06:11 am
Apparently they decided to give InSight a soft American woman's voice.  Does this mean Viking 1 & 2 spoke like gruff Scandinavians back in the '70s?  ;)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 11/19/2018 12:47 pm
Press release, 19 November 2018

DLR's HP3 Mole on board NASA's InSight mission soon to land on Mars


It will be the deepest hole ever hammered into another celestial body using manmade technology. During the NASA InSight mission, the Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3), the Mole, which was developed and built by the German Aerospace Center
(Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) will penetrate up to five metres deep into the Martian soil to measure the temperature and thermal conductivity of the substrate materials there. This glimpse of the interior of the Red Planet will help
us to better understand the formation and evolution of Earth-like bodies. The landing is scheduled to take place at 20:53 CET on 26 November 2018 on the Elysium Planitia plain, a bit north of the Martian equator. As the hour approaches, excitement
is mounting over where exactly the landing probe will touch down within the 140-kilometre-long landing ellipse and where an appropriate spot for the historic Mars experiment might be found at the landing site. Until now, heat flow measurements have
only been performed on the Moon, as part of the Apollo 17 mission, during which the astronauts Eugene Cernan and Jack Schmitt used a hand-powered drill to bore up to three metres into the surface.

"Our Mars mole is doing well on board InSight on its final stretch to Mars," says the Principal Investigator of the HP3 experiment, Tilman Spohn of the DLR Institute of Planetary Research in Berlin. "Checks during the cruise phase did not reveal any
irregularities. Now we are eagerly yet confidently awaiting the landing just a few days from now."

Spohn and a number of other DLR scientists will be at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) on 26 November, which runs the mission for NASA. Also present will be scientists from the DLR Microgravity User Support Center in Cologne (MUSC), which is directly
involved with the mission operations team that is controlling the mole. "From the landing and the choice of a definitive site on the surface all the way through to the successful penetration of the Martian soil, we will be working directly with our
US colleagues at the control centre in Pasadena, California," says HP3 Operations Manager Christian Krause.

The deployment of the HP3 experiment is now planned for early January 2019. At this point, the penetrometer will gradually hammer down to a depth of five metres in 50-centimetre progressions over three phases that will be repeatedly interrupted by
measurements and checks. It will use a fully automatic electrically powered hammer mechanism and pull a tether fitted with measuring sensors behind it along into the Martian soil. "As we do not know what surprises – hard rocks, for instance – may await
us underground, we will proceed with great caution and are planning to reach our target depth within several weeks, in March 2019," adds Spohn. Another part of the HP3 experiment involves an infrared radiometer, which will be activated shortly after
the landing and will measure the surface thermal radiation yielding the temperature of Mars from the lander platform. Together, these datasets will make it possible to draw conclusions about the planet's heat flow.

Landing in a 'car park'

In order to mitigate the risks to the mission, the engineers and scientists have chosen a landing area southwest of the large Elysium volcanic complex, on the Elysium Planitia plain, which is largely flat and free of large stones and rocks. The deliberate
monotony of this landing site, essential for conducting measurements beneath the surface of Mars, has led NASA researchers to describe the landing, in tongue-in-cheek fashion, as taking place on a large 'parking lot'. Yet even here, precise analysis
of landing site will be necessary from the very start. Once this has been done, a robotic arm will set the seismometer SEIS (Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure), built under the lead of CNES by an international consortium to which DLR has also
contributed, down on the surface. The seismometer will record waves that originate from marsquakes and meteorite impacts and propagate through the planet. As a next step, the HP3'Mole' experiment, which was developed and built at DLR, will be placed
on the surface. The InSight landing platform also carries the US experiment RISE (Rotation and Interior Structure Experiment), which will record fluctuations in the Mars' rotation axis.

Braking manoeuvre at 1500 degrees Celsius

Before the measurements can begin, InSight must first endure the roughly seven-minute critical Entry, Descent and Landing phase (EDL). On 26 November 2018 at 20:47 CET, the probe will enter the Martian atmosphere at a shallow angle. In the process,
the protective shield will heat up to around 1500 degrees Celsius within three minutes. The friction with the Martian atmosphere will slow down the probe until a parachute opens 12 kilometres above the ground, allowing the lander to slowly float down
to the planet's surface. Upon separation from the parachute at an altitude of 1200 metres, InSight will be decelerated by its descent engines. Contact will be maintained with the space probe during its flight to Mars and over the course of the mission
via the 70-metre antennas of NASA's Deep Space Network in California, Australia and Spain. The NASA Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and Mars Odyssey 2001 probes will fly over the InSight landing site twice per Martian day and will serve as relay stations
for communications with Earth.

Looking at Mars to discover how Earth was formed

InSight is a stationary geophysical observatory, and the only one of its kind in the history of Solar System research. Its main scientific task is to investigate the interior and composition of our neighbouring planet, examining the evolution, structure
and physical properties of the crust, mantle and core, thus enabling us to draw conclusions about the formation and evolution of terrestrial bodies. Mars is the perfect destination, as it is relatively easy to reach and makes an ideal comparison object
to Earth.

The processes that took place after the formation of a metal core inside Mars and in the overlying rock mantle and crust likely slowed down faster than they did on Earth. As such, the fingerprints of the processes that once formed the core, mantle
and crust of Earth-like planets may have been better preserved on Mars to this day. Researchers are thus hoping to gain a deeper understanding of what occurred from the formation of Earth up to the evolution of life, also comparing these processes
with those that occurred on its closest neighbours, Mercury, Venus and Mars, as well as looking at rocky planets orbiting other stars. The researchers are curious as to whether there is still a hot, molten core at the centre of Mars – as there is on
Earth – and whether this is completely molten, unlike on Earth, as some theories suggest. Tilman Spohn, who developed this theory together with fellow scientists from the US in the 1990s, maintains that "This model would easily explain the lack of
a magnetic field on Mars today".

The HP3 experiment on the NASA InSight mission

The InSight mission is being conducted by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California, on behalf of NASA's Science Mission Directorate. The InSight mission is part of the NASA Discovery Program. DLR is contributing to the mission with
its HP3 (Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package) experiment. The DLR Institute of Planetary Research, which was responsible for developing the experiment in collaboration with the DLR institutes of Space Systems, Optical Sensor Systems, Space Operations
and Astronaut Training, Composite Structures and Adaptive Systems, System Dynamics and Control, and Robotics and Mechatronics, is leading the experiment. The industry partners Astronika, CBK Space Research Centre, Magson and Sonaca are also involved.
The Space Research Institute at the Austrian Academy of Science and the University of Kaiserslautern are scientific partners for the project. HP3 is operated by the DLR Microgravity User Support Centre (MUSC) in Cologne.

Detailed information on InSight and the HP3 experiment are available on DLR's dedicated mission site: www.dlr.de/en/insight. For mission updates follow @NASAInSight on Twitter.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Cheapchips on 11/20/2018 06:57 pm

Some nice cleanroom and pad footage in this lead up to launch video

https://youtu.be/m6308PIJ130
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/21/2018 10:35 am
The Oatmeal's take on Insight's mission:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/21/2018 03:40 pm
The Oatmeal's take on Insight's mission:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/insight

Love his work  8)  Including what he did previously for Rosetta too
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 05:41 pm
November 21, Wednesday
1 p.m. - Mars InSight Mission Engineering Overview News Conference (All Channels)
2 p.m. - Mars InSight Mission Science Overview News Conference (All Channels)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 05:42 pm
EDL "Entry, Descent & Landing"
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 05:43 pm
MarCO cubesat and Fisrt view of Mars by a Cubesat….
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 05:57 pm
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/timeline/landing/watch-online/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 06:02 pm
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 06:17 pm
SEIS "Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure" deployment.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 06:19 pm
HP3 "Heat Flow and Physical Properties Probe" experiment
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/21/2018 06:43 pm
Next briefing...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Mapperuo on 11/21/2018 08:40 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4nl1iIjM6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzBkCVGwWsg
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 11/22/2018 01:17 am
NASA InSight Team on Course for Mars Touchdown

Tony Greicius Posted on November 21, 2018

NASA’s Mars Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) spacecraft is on track for a soft touchdown on the surface of the Red Planet on Nov. 26, the Monday after Thanksgiving. But it’s not going to be a relaxing weekend of turkey leftovers, football and shopping for the InSight mission team. Engineers will be keeping a close eye on the stream of data indicating InSight’s health and trajectory, and monitoring Martian weather reports to figure out if the team needs to make any final adjustments in preparation for landing, only five days away.

“Landing on Mars is hard. It takes skill, focus and years of preparation,” said Thomas Zurbuchen, associate administrator for the Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington. “Keeping in mind our ambitious goal to eventually send humans to the surface of the Moon and then Mars, I know that our incredible science and engineering team — the only in the world to have successfully landed spacecraft on the Martian surface — will do everything they can to successfully land InSight on the Red Planet.”

InSight, the first mission to study the deep interior of Mars, blasted off from Vandenberg Air Force Base in Central California on May 5, 2018. It has been an uneventful flight to Mars, and engineers like it that way. They will get plenty of excitement when InSight hits the top of the Martian atmosphere at 12,300 mph (19,800 kph) and slows down to 5 mph (8 kph) — about human jogging speed — before its three legs touch down on Martian soil. That extreme deceleration has to happen in just under seven minutes.

“There’s a reason engineers call landing on Mars ‘seven minutes of terror,'” said Rob Grover, InSight’s entry, descent and landing (EDL) lead, based at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California. “We can’t joystick the landing, so we have to rely on the commands we pre-program into the spacecraft. We’ve spent years testing our plans, learning from other Mars landings and studying all the conditions Mars can throw at us. And we’re going to stay vigilant till InSight settles into its home in the Elysium Planitia region.”

One way engineers may be able to confirm quickly what activities InSight has completed during those seven minutes of terror is if the experimental CubeSat mission known as Mars Cube One (MarCO) relays InSight data back to Earth in near-real time during their flyby on Nov. 26. The two MarCO spacecraft (A and B) are making good progress toward their rendezvous point, and their radios have already passed their first deep-space tests.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2018/11/21/106/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 11/22/2018 01:18 am
NASA InSight Landing on Mars: Milestones

Tony Greicius Posted on November 21, 2018

On Nov. 26, NASA’s InSight spacecraft will blaze through the Martian atmosphere and attempt to set a lander gently on the surface of the Red Planet in less time than it takes to hard-boil an egg. InSight’s entry, descent and landing (EDL) team, based at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, along with another part of the team at Lockheed Martin Space in Denver, have pre-programmed the spacecraft to perform a specific sequence of activities to make this possible.

The following is a list of expected milestones for the spacecraft, assuming all proceeds exactly as planned and engineers make no final changes the morning of landing day. Some milestones will be known quickly only if the experimental Mars Cube One (MarCO) spacecraft are providing a reliable communications relay from InSight back to Earth. The primary communications path for InSight engineering data during the landing process is through NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and Mars Odyssey. Those data are expected to become available several hours after landing.

If all goes well, MarCO may take a few seconds to receive and format the data before sending it back to Earth at the speed of light. The one-way time for a signal to reach Earth from Mars is eight minutes and seven seconds on Nov. 26. Times listed below are in Earth Receive Time, or the time JPL Mission Control may receive the signals relating to these activities.

11:40 a.m. PST (2:40 p.m. EST) – Separation from the cruise stage that carried the mission to Mars
11:41 a.m. PST (2:41 p.m. EST) – Turn to orient the spacecraft properly for atmospheric entry
11:47 a.m. PST (2:47 p.m. EST) – Atmospheric entry at about 12,300 mph (19,800 kph), beginning the entry, descent and landing phase
11:49 a.m. PST (2:49 p.m. EST) – Peak heating of the protective heat shield reaches about 2,700°F (about 1,500°C)
15 seconds later – Peak deceleration, with the intense heating causing possible temporary dropouts in radio signals
11:51 a.m. PST (2:51 p.m. EST) – Parachute deployment
15 seconds later – Separation from the heat shield
10 seconds later – Deployment of the lander’s three legs
11:52 a.m. PST (2:52 p.m. EST) – Activation of the radar that will sense the distance to the ground
11:53 a.m. PST (2:53 p.m. EST) – First acquisition of the radar signal
20 seconds later – Separation from the back shell and parachute
0.5 second later – The retrorockets, or descent engines, begin firing
2.5 seconds later – Start of the “gravity turn” to get the lander into the proper orientation for landing
22 seconds later – InSight begins slowing to a constant velocity (from 17 mph to a constant 5 mph, or from 27 kph to 8 kph) for its soft landing
11:54 a.m. PST (2:54 p.m. EST) – Expected touchdown on the surface of Mars
12:01 p.m. PST (3:01 p.m. EST) – “Beep” from InSight’s X-band radio directly back to Earth, indicating InSight is alive and functioning on the surface of Mars
No earlier than 12:04 p.m. PST (3:04 p.m. EST), but possibly the next day – First image from InSight on the surface of Mars
No earlier than 5:35 p.m. PST (8:35 p.m. EST) – Confirmation from InSight via NASA’s Mars Odyssey orbiter that InSight’s solar arrays have deployed

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2018/11/21/nasa-insight-landing-on-mars-milestones/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: catdlr on 11/22/2018 05:55 am
Next briefing...

That Slide has been corrected:
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: pb2000 on 11/22/2018 08:03 pm
Not sure if this has been asked already, but do we have any idea as to the final fate of the MarCo-A/B? Capture into a highly elliptic orbit? Flung off somewhere in the vague direction of Starman?

On a less serious note, does Wall-E have a teeny tiny fire extinguisher?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/22/2018 08:43 pm
Overview of the two accompanying CubeSats.

Big test coming up for tiny satellites trailing Mars lander (https://phys.org/news/2018-11-big-tiny-satellites-trailing-mars.amp?)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/23/2018 07:11 am
My new simulator:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/insight-edl-simulator.html


It's mostly based on previosu mission Phoenix, but the EDL profile is quite similar, so it can be used to "imagine" and "visualize" what will happen up there during the 6 minutes of terror.


Unfortunately I was not able to find more precise data about the most critical part, i.e. after backshell separation: altitude data have a +/-100 m approximation, speed data +/-3 km/h , but this is all I was able to find in official data. (https://atmos.nmsu.edu/PDS/data/phxase_0002/DATA/)


I'll try adding twitter feeds and live video from control room in the remaining space of the page.
Twitter 1: https://twitter.com/NASAInSight
Twitter 2: https://twitter.com/RAmbroseLMSpace
NASA live video: https://www.youtube.com/NASAJPL/live


Do the cubesat have their own twitter accounts?



Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/23/2018 01:59 pm
According to JPL Horizons
the Insight surpassed the Hiil sphere 2018. nov. 23 02:00 UTC and
passes through Sphere of influence 577,000 km 2018/11/24 15:30 UTC

 od102_v1.V0.1                           2018-Jul-29 00:01   2018-Nov-25 19:40
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/23/2018 02:49 pm
According to JPL Horizons
the Insight surpassed the Hiil sphere 2018. nov. 23 02:00 UTC and
passes through Sphere of influence 577,000 km 2018/11/24 15:30 UTC

Is this the reason for which raw Horizons data (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%20%27YES%27&&TABLE_TYPE=%20%27VECTORS%27&&OUT_UNITS=%20%27KM-S%27&&REF_SYSTEM=%20%27J2000%27&&VEC_LABELS=%20%27YES%27&&CSV_FORMAT=%20%27YES%27&&OBJ_DATA=%20%27NO%27&&VEC_TABLE=%20%272%27&&STEP_SIZE=%20%271%20m%27&&START_TIME=%20%272018-11-25%2019:00%27&&STOP_TIME=%20%272018-11-26%2020:40%27&&COMMAND=%20%27-189%27&&CENTER=%20%27@499%27&&) show Insight as being in orbit around Mars?!?
MARCO cubesats data show instead a flyby: MARCO-A (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%20%27YES%27&&TABLE_TYPE=%20%27VECTORS%27&&OUT_UNITS=%20%27KM-S%27&&REF_SYSTEM=%20%27J2000%27&&VEC_LABELS=%20%27YES%27&&CSV_FORMAT=%20%27YES%27&&OBJ_DATA=%20%27NO%27&&VEC_TABLE=%20%272%27&&STEP_SIZE=%20%271%20m%27&&START_TIME=%20%272018-11-25%2019:00%27&&STOP_TIME=%20%272018-11-26%2020:40%27&&COMMAND=%20%27-65%27&&CENTER=%20%27@499%27&&), MARCO-B (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%20%27YES%27&&TABLE_TYPE=%20%27VECTORS%27&&OUT_UNITS=%20%27KM-S%27&&REF_SYSTEM=%20%27J2000%27&&VEC_LABELS=%20%27YES%27&&CSV_FORMAT=%20%27YES%27&&OBJ_DATA=%20%27NO%27&&VEC_TABLE=%20%272%27&&STEP_SIZE=%20%271%20m%27&&START_TIME=%20%272018-11-25%2019:00%27&&STOP_TIME=%20%272018-11-26%2020:40%27&&COMMAND=%20%27-66%27&&CENTER=%20%27@499%27&&)



Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/23/2018 05:12 pm
en wiki Escape velocity:

"Location   Relative to   Ve (km/s)
On Mars   Mars' gravity   5.03"
Insight has 3.0 km/s


yes, insight enters Martian gravity and has no energy to leave it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Comga on 11/23/2018 07:38 pm
en wiki Escape velocity:

"Location   Relative to   Ve (km/s)
On Mars   Mars' gravity   5.03"
Insight has 3.0 km/s

yes, insight enters Martian gravity and has no energy to leave it.

That may not be correct
Insight has 3 km/sec as V(infinity), approaching from outside the Hill sphere.
It would exit with the same velocity relative to Mars if something didn't slow it down.
That will be the atmosphere, which hopefully the MARCO's won't encounter.
Check the data above.
It should hit the atmosphere at around 6 km/sec, the energetic (not linear) total of the 3 and 5 km/sec velocities cited.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/24/2018 03:18 am
JPL Horizons
*******************************************************************************
Ephemeris / WWW_USER Fri Nov 23 13:39:11 2018 Pasadena, USA      / Horizons   
*******************************************************************************
Target body name: InSight (spacecraft) (-189)     {source: InSight_merged}
Center body name: Mars (499)                      {source: mar097}
Center-site name: BODY CENTER
*******************************************************************************
Start time      : A.D. 2018-Nov-23 00:00:00.0000 TDB
Stop  time      : A.D. 2018-Nov-26 20:00:00.0000 TDB
Step-size       : 60 minutes
*******************************************************************************
Center geodetic : 0.00000000,0.00000000,0.0000000 {W-lon(deg),Lat(deg),Alt(km)}
Center cylindric: 0.00000000,0.00000000,0.0000000 {W-lon(deg),Dxy(km),Dz(km)}
Center radii    : 3396.2 x 3396.2 x 3376.2 km     {Equator, meridian, pole}   
Output units    : KM-S                                                         
Output type     : GEOMETRIC cartesian states
Output format   : 3 (position, velocity, LT, range, range-rate)
Reference frame : ICRF/J2000.0                                                 
Coordinate systm: Ecliptic and Mean Equinox of Reference Epoch     
     JDTDB,            Calendar Date (TDB),                      X,                      Y,                      Z,                     VX,                     VY,                     VZ,                     LT,                     RG,                     RR,
***
2458448.291666667, A.D. 2018-Nov-25 19:00:00.0000, -1.006423207500966E+05,  2.617124984817217E+05, -5.937226067285403E+03,  1.023867645169923E+00, -2.844471491510617E+00,  9.041072979368014E-02,  9.355123606794892E-01,  2.804595500974865E+05, -3.023662219742696E+00,


                                       
VX=1.023867645169923E+00,
VY,-2.844471491510617E+00, 
VZ=9.041072979368014E-02,
v= 3,02448 km/s


X=-1.006423207500966E+05
Y=2.617124984817217E+05
Z=-5.937226067285403E+03
dist=280 460 km



Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/24/2018 03:42 am
Any word yet on further trajectory corrections?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: meekGee on 11/24/2018 04:37 am
The Oatmeal's take on Insight's mission:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/insight
Cute.  However:  "Pulling 12 g in 2 minutes"?  I wish he'd have written "for" instead of "in".  Why are units so difficult to understand?

Also, good luck, InSight

-----
ABCD: Always Be Counting Down
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/24/2018 03:02 pm
Why do NASA Horizons Insight (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%27YES%27&TABLE_TYPE=%27VECTORS%27&OUT_UNITS=%27KM-S%27&REFTemplateANE=%27ECLIPTIC%27&REF_SYSTEM=%27J2000%27&VECT_CORR=%27NONE%27&VEC_LABELS=%27YES%27&VEC_DELTA_T=%27NO%27&CSV_FORMAT=%27YES%27&OBJ_DATA=%27YES%27&VEC_TABLE=%276%27&START_TIME=%272018-11-25%2018:00%27&STOP_TIME=%272018-11-26%2020:00%27&STEP_SIZE=%271%20m%27&COMMAND=%27-189%27&CENTER=%27@499%27) data look so weird today? They state landing is going to happen on 25th rather than on 26th!!


2458448.318055556, A.D. 2018-Nov-25 19:38:00.0000, 9.125119431869558E-01, 2.735641984023738E+05, -3.024901901551133E+00,
2458448.318750000, A.D. 2018-Nov-25 19:39:00.0000, 9.119065406414170E-01, 2.733827032851672E+05, -3.024935345862831E+00,
2458448.319444444, A.D. 2018-Nov-25 19:40:00.0000, 1.131818709765760E-02, 3.393107130110657E+03, 4.196530165013691E-14,
2458448.320138889, A.D. 2018-Nov-25 19:41:00.0000, 1.131818656712531E-02, 3.393106971061080E+03, -5.212723928404643E-06,



Trajectory files                           Start (TDB)           End (TDB)
--------------------------------------  -----------------   ----------------- 
od002_v1.V0.1                           2018-May-05 12:39   2018-May-05 21:00 
od037_v1_delTCAL.V0.1                   2018-May-05 21:00   2018-Jun-08 00:00 
od092_v1.V0.1                           2018-Jun-08 00:00   2018-Jul-29 00:01 
od102_v1.V0.1                           2018-Jul-29 00:01   2018-Nov-25 19:40
4day_landed.V0.1                        2018-Nov-25 19:40   2018-Nov-29 19:40


Anyway, my simulator is evnetually finished:


http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/insight-edl-simulator.html (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/insight-edl-simulator.html)


(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/screenshot2.png)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: speedevil on 11/24/2018 03:47 pm
The Oatmeal's take on Insight's mission:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/insight
Cute.  However:  "Pulling 12 g in 2 minutes"?  I wish he'd have written "for" instead of "in".  Why are units so difficult to understand?
For is clearly wrong, that would be a constant deceleration of a total of 14.4km/s.
'a maximum of' seems likely to be correct, based on maths performed without the aid of envelopes, and the peak G period would last a dozen seconds or so.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: meekGee on 11/24/2018 03:53 pm


The Oatmeal's take on Insight's mission:

https://theoatmeal.com/comics/insight
Cute.  However:  "Pulling 12 g in 2 minutes"?  I wish he'd have written "for" instead of "in".  Why are units so difficult to understand?
For is clearly wrong, that would be a constant deceleration of a total of 14.4km/s.
'a maximum of' seems likely to be correct, based on maths performed without the aid of envelopes, and the peak G period would last a dozen seconds or so.

Heh yeah, so a more elaborate sentence would ensue...  "Pulling a maximum of 12 g over a 2 minute deceleration period"..  it fits in the comic dimensions too, I checked.


-----
ABCD: Always Be Counting Down

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/24/2018 11:14 pm
https://youtu.be/kyD0q57zw40
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/25/2018 03:44 am
JPL Horizons updated the data
od110_v2_V0.1                           2018-Oct-12 19:00   2018-Nov-26 19:40
26.11.18 19:39:00   3 629 km   5,69823 km/s
26.11.18 19:39:59   3 544 km   5,74766 km/s

4day_landed.V0.1                        2018-Nov-26 19:40   2018-Nov-29 19:40
26.11.18 19:40:00   3 393 km   0,23978 km/s
26.11.18 19:41:00   3 393 km   0,23978 km/s

Mars radius is 3389 km

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/25/2018 09:51 am
A couple of Twitter account for HIRISE/MRO imager:


https://twitter.com/HiRISEBot
https://twitter.com/HiRISE
NASA plans to  take a shot of the landing after parachute opening to check parachute status.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/25/2018 09:56 am
"INSTITUT DE PHYSIQUE DU GLOBE DE PARIS (http://www.ipgp.fr/en/mission-insight)" (IPGP)designed the main instrument of Insight, the SEIS Mars seismometer, this is the official twitter feed:
https://twitter.com/InSight_IPGP


I can't find any twitter feed for the cubesats Marco-A and Marco-B.





Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/25/2018 10:13 am
These are the changes applied to EDL sequence after Phoenix mission:


(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/EDL-change.png)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/25/2018 01:05 pm
InSight arrival to Mars, detail
JPL Horizons, step 1 min
od110_v2_V0.1
2018-Nov-26 19:20
2018-Nov-26 19:39:59

and Jump

4day_landed.V0.1                           
2018-Nov-26 19:40
2018-Nov-26 19:53
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/25/2018 02:53 pm
InSight arrival to Mars, detail
I don't know how much you know javascript, anyway this is a page I am using to automatically plot Horizons data:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight.html (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight.html)



It was not indeded for public release but just for my personal use, so it does not have any other interface than a button; to change ranges of X and Y axis and Horizons parameter you have to directly edit the source...


Anyway I don't think Horizons will show the EDL, at least not for next weeks, until EDL data will be downloaded and processed.


Here you define start/stop dates of the data:


      fullURL_Mars = fullURLTemplate.replace("#START#","2018-11-26%2019:30");
      fullURL_Mars = fullURL_Mars.replace("#END#","2018-11-26%2019:50");



This is the time step; allowed values are m, h ,d (minutes, days, hours)


      fullURL_Mars = fullURL_Mars.replace("#STEP#","1%20m");


Don't remove the "%20" or things may not work properly.

Here you set the maximum Y value:



      Marsconfig = configTemplate();
         Marsconfig.options.title.text = 'Insight - Mars';
         Marsconfig.options.scales.yAxes[0].ticks.max = 1e4;
   


Here you define how many curves (=datasets) are plotted in the same chart:



               labels: [],
               datasets: [{
                  label: 'Distance',
                  backgroundColor: window.chartColors.blue,
                  borderColor: window.chartColors.blue,
                  data: [ ],
                  fill: false,
                  pointRadius: 1,
                  showLine: false
               }]



To add a dataset/curve, just add an element to the array (don't forget the comma):






               labels: [],
               datasets: [{
                  label: 'Distance',
                  backgroundColor: window.chartColors.blue,
                  borderColor: window.chartColors.blue,
                  data: [ ],
                  fill: false,
                  pointRadius: 1,
                  showLine: false
               },



{
                  label: 'Distance',
                  backgroundColor: window.chartColors.blue,
                  borderColor: window.chartColors.blue,
                  data: [ ],
                  fill: false,
                  pointRadius: 1,
                  showLine: false
               }
]



Once you have defined the arrays, you fill them here, but here things get complex because you have to perform multiple calls to Horizons and multiple decoding:



         Marsconfig.data.datasets[0].data.push(LineArray[3]);





This url (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%27YES%27&TABLE_TYPE=%27VECTORS%27&OUT_UNITS=%27KM-S%27&REFTemplateANE=%27ECLIPTIC%27&REF_SYSTEM=%27J2000%27&VECT_CORR=%27NONE%27&VEC_LABELS=%27YES%27&VEC_DELTA_T=%27NO%27&CSV_FORMAT=%27YES%27&OBJ_DATA=%27YES%27&VEC_TABLE=%276%27&START_TIME=%272018-11-26%2019:30%27&STOP_TIME=%272018-11-26%2019:50%27&STEP_SIZE=%271%20m%27&COMMAND=%27-189%27&CENTER=%27*%27) lists all available observer locations.
This url (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%27YES%27&TABLE_TYPE=%27VECTORS%27&OUT_UNITS=%27KM-S%27&REFTemplateANE=%27ECLIPTIC%27&REF_SYSTEM=%27J2000%27&VECT_CORR=%27NONE%27&VEC_LABELS=%27YES%27&VEC_DELTA_T=%27NO%27&CSV_FORMAT=%27YES%27&OBJ_DATA=%27YES%27&VEC_TABLE=%276%27&START_TIME=%272018-11-26%2019:30%27&STOP_TIME=%272018-11-26%2019:50%27&STEP_SIZE=%271%20m%27&COMMAND=%27*%27&CENTER=%27@499%27) lists all available targets (both natural and artificial). Some possible values for "COMMAND" parameter:
-143  ExoMars TGO (spacecraft)                                             
-84  Phoenix (spacecraft) 

-74  Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter               MRO                 
-65  MarCO-A (spacecraft)                            Wall-E               
-66  MarCO-B (spacecraft)                            Eva   
-53  Mars Odyssey (spacecraft)     
-41  Mars Express (spacecraft)                       MEX     
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/25/2018 03:18 pm
InSight arrival to Mars, detail
I don't know how much you know javascript, anyway this is a page I am using to automatically plot Horizons data:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight.html (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight.html)
This version includes Marco-A and Marco-B behaviours:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight-002.html (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight-002.html)


But I don't think these data take into account aidrag at 6000 km altitude: Marco's will burn up.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/25/2018 04:04 pm

Ops, I confused km with m.
Anyway they will be 3000km, as 6000km is distance from Mars center. But it's still around 2865 km above "atmosphere edge", where Insight is expected to meet first air molecules (135 km altitude).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: joseph.a.navin on 11/25/2018 05:09 pm
Insight up close
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: joseph.a.navin on 11/25/2018 05:14 pm
They just said they are going to do TCM-6, about 11 miles off of the center of target.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/25/2018 07:37 pm
the altitude of Insight above the mean radius of Mars 3389.5 km
Time 19:20 - 19:40

source:
JPL Horizons
od110_v2_V0.1                           2018-Oct-12 19:00   2018-Nov-26 19:40


Edit: the surface at the point of landing 4 ° 30 '0 "N, 135 ° 0' 0" E is from the center of Mars 3393 km,
Google earth report -2 663 m, 3396,2 km (Equatorial radius)  -2 663 m=3393,5 km
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: nasafail on 11/25/2018 07:41 pm
From yesterday's news from JPL:

"In just over 24 hours, NASA's InSight spacecraft will complete its seven-month journey to Mars. It will have cruised 301,223,981 miles (484,773,006 km) at a top speed of 6,200 mph (10,000 kph)."

Is a top speed of 6,200 mph right for an Earth-Mars transfer?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 11/25/2018 08:11 pm
NASA’s InSight Is One Day Away from Mars

Tony Greicius Posted on November 25, 2018

In just over 24 hours, NASA’s InSight spacecraft will complete its seven-month journey to Mars. It will have cruised 301,223,981 miles (484,773,006 km) at a top speed of 6,200 mph (10,000 kph).

Engineers at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, which leads the mission, are preparing for the spacecraft to enter the Martian atmosphere, descend with a parachute and retrorockets, and touch down tomorrow at around noon PST (3 p.m. EST). InSight — which stands for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport — will be the first mission to study the deep interior of Mars.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2018/11/25/nasas-insight-is-one-day-away-from-mars/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: speedevil on 11/25/2018 08:17 pm
From yesterday's news from JPL:

"In just over 24 hours, NASA's InSight spacecraft will complete its seven-month journey to Mars. It will have cruised 301,223,981 miles (484,773,006 km) at a top speed of 6,200 mph (10,000 kph)."

Is a top speed of 6,200 mph right for an Earth-Mars transfer?

Depends where you measure it from.
Once it gets out of earths influence - May 8, and earth stops slowing it, the speed is 3km/s - 6700MPH a few days later. Then it drops to a minimum of 2.58km/s in June, as the trajectory curves it a bit towards earth, with a peak a couple of days ago before it enters Mars influence of 15.3km/s.
Looking from Mars POV, it begins at 16km/s towards, and decreases all the way down to 3km/s towards a few days ago.

From the perspective of the sun, it starts modestly at only .4km/s, peaks at 4km/s away in July, and drops down to 1.7km/s just before entrance.
I'm not sure where they'd have gotten the 'top speed' from. - it seems likely it's velocity in excess of escape orbit, rather than actual top speed in any particular metric.

JPL horizons is great.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/25/2018 08:20 pm
FEATURE ARTICLE: NASA, Mars fleet ready for daring, challenging InSight landing on Red Planet

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/11/nasa-mars-fleet-insight-landing-red-planet/ …

- By Chris Gebhardt

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1066803703817150464
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/26/2018 06:48 am
At 19:40 UTC, Insight has a altitude of 3 544 km- 3 396.2 km(Equatorial radius) = 148 km
The surface at the point of landing is from the center of Mars 3393 km.

Mars atmosphere:
(https://pocket-image-cache.com/direct?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpages.uoregon.edu%2Fjimbrau%2FBrauImNew%2FChap10%2F7th%2FAT_7e_Figure_10_20.jpg&resize=w704)
source: https://pages.uoregon.edu/jimbrau/astr121/Notes/Chapter10.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: nasafail on 11/26/2018 06:51 am
I think they should provide a correction because it's plain wrong what they have written about the speed or velocity within any frame of reference.

Let's see if they are more precise when they land the craft. I think there was a case in the past when they crashed because of wrong units (metric vs Imperial)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: tyrred on 11/26/2018 09:13 am
I think they should provide a correction because it's plain wrong what they have written about the speed or velocity within any frame of reference.

Let's see if they are more precise when they land the craft. I think there was a case in the past when they crashed because of wrong units (metric vs Imperial)

Did you miss speedevil's post, directly quoting your earlier post, regarding the relative nature of velocities? 

Can you calculate where 10,000 kph over escape velocity could get you?   

Perhaps if you wrote "them" a courteous but strongly worded letter stating your complaint "they" would be able to educate or vindicate you.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: John44 on 11/26/2018 09:15 am
Mars InSight Mission Overview News Conference
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6625

Mars InSight Mission Science Overview News Conference
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6624

Mars InSight Final Pre-Landing News Conference
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6626

Mars InSight NASA Social Speaker Program
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6627
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 11:18 am
OK, to all, this master thread is so full of resources, we are thinking of just staying here for the event. If we change our minds and require a pure update thread for the event, I'll post the link here etc.

However, per the plan of staying with this thread, please keep posts in the style of updates, questions, answers. No "woo!" or "awesome!" posts....use the likes option. ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 01:17 pm
Under five hours to the NASA TV live coverage. They have a countdown clock on to help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwMDvPCGeE0
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 11/26/2018 02:23 pm
Landing Day for InSight

Tony Greicius Posted on November 25, 2018

NASA’s InSight spacecraft is on target for Mars landing at around noon PST today.

In mere hours, NASA’s InSight spacecraft will complete its seven-month journey to Mars. It will have cruised 301,223,981 miles (484,773,006 km) at a top speed of 6,200 mph (10,000 kph).

Engineers at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, which leads the mission, are preparing for the spacecraft to enter the Martian atmosphere, descend with a parachute and retrorockets, and touch down tomorrow at around noon PST (3 p.m. EST). InSight — which stands for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport — will be the first mission to study the deep interior of Mars.

“We’ve studied Mars from orbit and from the surface since 1965, learning about its weather, atmosphere, geology and surface chemistry,” said Lori Glaze, acting director of the Planetary Science Division in NASA’s Science Mission Directorate. “Now we finally will explore inside Mars and deepen our understanding of our terrestrial neighbor as NASA prepares to send human explorers deeper into the solar system.”

Before InSight enters the Martian atmosphere, there are a few final preparations to make. At 1:47 p.m. PST (4:47 p.m. EST) engineers successfully conducted a last trajectory correction maneuver to steer the spacecraft within a few kilometers of its targeted entry point over Mars. About two hours before hitting the atmosphere, the entry, descent and landing (EDL) team might also upload some final tweaks to the algorithm that guides the spacecraft safely to the surface.

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2018/11/25/nasas-insight-is-one-day-away-from-mars/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/26/2018 03:37 pm
From "NASA’s Eyes "...

https://eyes.nasa.gov/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 11/26/2018 04:07 pm
https://eyes.jpl.nasa.gov/apps/experience-insight/InSight.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 04:38 pm
Landing sequence.
This is an old and outdated EDL sequence; after Phoenix mission, a change was applied to first part of the sequence:


(https://aliveuniverse.today/images/articoli/2018/mdl/EDL-change.png)


Infact they calculated a minimum distance of 6 meters between cruise stage debris and lander if the separation maneuver was performed after rotation.


This is then the correct sequence:
(https://aliveuniverse.today/media/k2/items/cache/b2c68359d7d2f527ead88c211efccdb2_XL.jpg)


Source: https://aliveuniverse.today/speciale-missioni/marte/lander/insight/3751-l-arrivo-della-sonda-insight-della-nasa-su-marte-spiegazione-dettagliata-e-simulazione (https://aliveuniverse.today/speciale-missioni/marte/lander/insight/3751-l-arrivo-della-sonda-insight-della-nasa-su-marte-spiegazione-dettagliata-e-simulazione)

---------------

You can "visually" follow the descent using the (unofficial) simulator (which now also includes live video feed from NASA and official  Twitter feed):
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/insight-edl-simulator.html (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/insight-edl-simulator.html)
(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/screenshot2.png)

Or you can simulate the descent in Google Earth:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/EDL-new.kmz (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/EDL-new.kmz)


(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/screenshot-googleearth.png)

Double click on EDL3 item to view an animation of the events.
Unfortunately I was not able to find a method to have a real  time animation, only accelerated.


DISCLAIMER:
In both the simulator and the Google Earth animation, all data are from previous Phoenix mission (https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/phx-m-ase-5-edl-rdr-v10/phxase_0002/DATA/), which has same EDL profile and same 3-legged lander, but data were shifted to make the end of the trajectory match with Insight landing site (AKA Landinsight ;-)  ). Only altitudes at each event comes from official Insight EDL profile.

Google Earth version created by using this page (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/crea-EDL.html) to convert RAW phoenix data to KML format.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: speedevil on 11/26/2018 05:25 pm
Does anyone know how the just-prior to EDL mars atmosphere is being measured/simulated for this mission, and any links?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 05:57 pm
75,000 waiting for the NASA TV coverage to begin!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 05:59 pm
Does anyone know how the just-prior to EDL mars atmosphere is being measured/simulated for this mission, and any links?
Generic: http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/


Specific:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight.html
More specific:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/horizons-insight-002.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/26/2018 06:01 pm
75,000 waiting for the NASA TV coverage to begin!

Over 145,000 now
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:04 pm
NASA JPL and Lockheed Martin.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Apollo-phill on 11/26/2018 06:04 pm
Did a regional BBC Radio interview about 545 pm tonight hoping " drum up" interest 😃

I love the landing site " common name" of   "Plain of Ideal Happiness ". Lets hope it isfor Insight and future settlers 😆

My name is on Insight on the microchip !


Phill Parker
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 11/26/2018 06:05 pm
InSight in Position for Mars Landing

Tony Greicius Posted on November 26, 2018

Mission controllers at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, have completed the final adjustments for landing NASA’s InSight spacecraft on Mars. Atmospheric entry is expected around 11:47 p.m. PST (2:47 p.m. EST) and touchdown, about seven minutes later. Watch live commentary at https://www.nasa.gov/live

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2018/11/26/insight-in-position-for-mars-landing/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:06 pm
OK, remember to keep the chatter down. 99.9 percent of people won't be interested in chatter.

Peanuts. ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: DaveS on 11/26/2018 06:07 pm
NASA TV Media Channel is running clean feed from JPL for those who likes a "non-fluff" feed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P11y8N22Rq0
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:12 pm
Polling and will then pass around the peanuts.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:15 pm
https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1067134141353750528
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:16 pm
"Seven months of cruise. Seven and a half minutes of terror"
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:21 pm
Warning about the potential of the event confirmation not being on time.

https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1067135903179501568
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:22 pm
Heat shield is thicker in case of dusty entry.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:23 pm
Targeting flat area north of Gale Crater where Curiosity landed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:25 pm
L-30 minutes. Insight Principle Investigator.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:26 pm
Simulated dynamics of a Mars quake.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:27 pm
Will be detecting surface waves in Mars surface.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:28 pm
20,000 to 30,000 hammer strokes to send heat probe about 5 metres into the ground.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 06:29 pm
https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1067134141353750528 (https://twitter.com/ChrisG_NSF/status/1067134141353750528)


I read doppler shift is not just the only method: there is also an intentional frequency change performed by Insight upon touchdown, to inform Earth it's safe: even if Earth is not able to read data on the carrier due to faint signal, if it can just receive the carrier and detect6 the doppler shift, it can also detect the frequency change.
(https://aliveuniverse.today/images/articoli/2018/mdl/frequenze.png)


https://aliveuniverse.today/speciale-missioni/marte/lander/insight/3751-l-arrivo-della-sonda-insight-della-nasa-su-marte-spiegazione-dettagliata-e-simulazione (https://aliveuniverse.today/speciale-missioni/marte/lander/insight/3751-l-arrivo-della-sonda-insight-della-nasa-su-marte-spiegazione-dettagliata-e-simulazione)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:29 pm
17 landing attempts. 10 have crashed!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 06:30 pm
20,000 to 30,000 hammer strokes to send heat probe about 5 metres into the ground.
where are 5 meters of rod stowed?!? and how are they placed for hammering? is there any animation?
What happens if it encounters am underground rock? Can drill location be changed after starting?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:32 pm
Getting good telemetry from spacecraft.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 06:33 pm
17 landing attempts. 10 have crashed!
Yes, Martians do not like visitors...
(http://saf-astronomie.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/nasa_human_exploration.gif)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:35 pm
L-20 minutes. Separation in 6 minutes.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:37 pm
Marco's have slewed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:37 pm
Will be detecting surface waves in Mars surface.

Interesting that they can use S-wave polarization and the waves circling the planet twice or thrice (relying on Mars' small diameter and relative low seismic background environment) so that they can "triangulate" the source of the quake with just a single station.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:38 pm
NAV-2 software in operation.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ChrisC on 11/26/2018 06:38 pm
20,000 to 30,000 hammer strokes to send heat probe about 5 metres into the ground.
where are 5 meters of rod stowed?!? and how are they placed for hammering? is there any animation?
What happens if it encounters am underground rock? Can drill location be changed after starting?

Discussed at length in ALL of the press conferences.  Go to NASA Youtube channels and watch there please.

Keep the chatter down for the next 30 minutes please.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 06:38 pm
startrackers turned off, switched to landing mode.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:39 pm
2 minutes to separation. Marco in bent pipe mode.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:39 pm
One minute to separation.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:41 pm
20,000 to 30,000 hammer strokes to send heat probe about 5 metres into the ground.
where are 5 meters of rod stowed?!? and how are they placed for hammering? is there any animation?
What happens if it encounters am underground rock? Can drill location be changed after starting?


Plenty of animations and diagrams online by searching "insight mole", for example.

There's no backup plan in case they hit a rock, just as there isn't if Insight happens to land on top of one and tip over: http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/2017/42140morgan/ndx_morgan.pdf (http://www.searchanddiscovery.com/documents/2017/42140morgan/ndx_morgan.pdf)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:41 pm
Expected separation. See that in video in background. Marco's have locked on carrier.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:42 pm
MarCOs have locked on carrier!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:42 pm
Per the timeline...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:42 pm
E-6 minutes. Orientation for entry.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:43 pm
Expected loss of X-band.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Eosterwine on 11/26/2018 06:43 pm
There goes the Cruise Stage ! ... good grief im feeeeling this lol
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:44 pm
Insight transmitting in UHF, and MarCO has locked on it.

Main signal from cruise stage has been lost, as expected.

Vehicle turn to entry maneuver confirmed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:45 pm
Two minutes to entry.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:46 pm
Entry in one minute. Marcos have telemetry.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:47 pm
InSight "stalkers" MarCO A and B both have a good lock!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:47 pm
Entry should be starting now. Marco telemetry being received.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:48 pm
Live telemetry via MarCO relays flowing, maybe will be able to relay an image!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 06:48 pm
Entry starting, 1 minute to peak heat
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:49 pm
One minute to peak heating.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:49 pm
Plasma blackout - but ask expected.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:49 pm
Blackout as expected. Peak heating as expected.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:50 pm
MarCO have carrier interruption but still in lock.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:50 pm
Peak decelearation as expected, 8 Gs.

Carrier detected by Radio Science.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:50 pm
2000 m/s.

Peak heating and deceleration are behind us.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:51 pm
Out of blackout. 2 km/s. One minute to parachute deploy.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:51 pm
1 km/s.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:51 pm
400 m/s = parachute deployment.

Standing by.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:52 pm
Change in Doppler - parachute deploy confirmed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:52 pm
Radar power ON
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:52 pm
Parachute deploy.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:52 pm
Heat shield separation commanded.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:52 pm
Radar activation. Insight still attached to backshell+parachute until 1 km altitude.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:52 pm
Radar activation.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:53 pm
Radar converged on ground!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:53 pm
Lander separation commanded! 600 m

Gravity turn
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:53 pm
Radar lock. Lander separation. 400 m.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:54 pm
Constant v
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 06:54 pm
Landed!  ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 06:54 pm
TOUCHDOWN CONFIRMED
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 06:54 pm
LANDED IT.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:54 pm
Touchdown confirmed!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lrk on 11/26/2018 06:55 pm
TOuchdouwn!!!!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Liss on 11/26/2018 06:55 pm
Fantastic. Congratulations.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:56 pm
Got a loss of audio on media channel.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/26/2018 06:57 pm
Literally awesome!!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: DwightM on 11/26/2018 06:57 pm
Outstanding work, congratulations!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: sghill on 11/26/2018 06:57 pm
Congratulations NASA!!! Our robotic invasion of the red planet continues!!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:58 pm
Three minutes to X-band beep.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 06:59 pm
Image from Marco received!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: MATTBLAK on 11/26/2018 06:59 pm
There is something in my eye... And Insight's too, it seems...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lrk on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
They have a picture!  Looks good for deploying instruments! 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: max_schmurz on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
So smoothly! Congratulations! The first photo is already taken!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
First image through dust cover! Received through MarCO.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
Photo sent back to Earth:

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1067145863330480128
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: NASAGeek on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
Congrats NASA and JPL.  Now I can breathe again.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
Received an image. Dust on camera lens cover which will later come off.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lrk on 11/26/2018 07:00 pm
Another one just came in!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:01 pm
MRO might have snapped a picture of Insight on parachute during descent, like was done for Curiosity and Phoenix!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 07:01 pm
That image definitely appears to be...dirt.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Targeteer on 11/26/2018 07:02 pm
The ISS crew called down congratulations to all involved with the landing.  Obviously they had the live feed streaming up.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:02 pm
X-band carrier detected (from Insight itself)!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lrk on 11/26/2018 07:02 pm
X-band beep! 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:03 pm
X-band carrier detected!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:04 pm
Nominal carrier on the surface.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:04 pm
Vehicle is nominal on surface.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 11/26/2018 07:05 pm
Absolutely incredible! NASA & JPL do it again.
Well done!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:06 pm
https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1067147128659562496 (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1067147128659562496)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:07 pm
NASA Administrator. Got a call from the Vice President. (All 0's on the phone.) Sends congratulations to NASA and all the international partners.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 07:12 pm
Is it already possible to download the video of the EDL? I'd like to update my simulator with real timings, but it's hard to get precise timings in the real time stream.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/26/2018 07:14 pm
Excellent work with the coverage everyone, Steven and Eeergo and others! Let's keep it on the events, as we still have arrays and photos to come, then we'll leave it open for congrats and start a new thread for post landing updates (mission days).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:15 pm
JPL Director. Eighth successful landing. Had one failure.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:20 pm
Social Media question. Typically 4-5 years to launch. Insight took two years longer due to issues with seismometer.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 07:20 pm
A post-landing news briefing expected at 2 p.m. PST (5 p.m. EST) (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/timeline/landing/watch-online/)[/font][/size].[/font][/size]
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:21 pm
Calibration plate on Insight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:23 pm
DLR Executive Board Member.

CNES representative.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:24 pm
SEIS project manager believes music and landing on Mars are actually quite alike: it need a lot of people to make it successful and deliver on time (well, about that SEIS... :D )
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:26 pm
JPL Insight Systems Engineer. Grew beard in seven months to landing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 07:26 pm
Images archive:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 07:27 pm
Are there 2 small rocks in the foreground of the context image?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:28 pm
In a half-hour, the "Cruise Control" area in JPL will get transferred over to another room so that they can take care of Surface Ops.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:29 pm
NASA coverage wrapping up. Showing social media pictures.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/26/2018 07:30 pm
Are there 2 small rocks in the foreground of the context image?

I'm pretty sure the one on the lower right in the image is one of the feet on the lander. Hard to tell. Check again in 5 hours if we get images with the dust cover off.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:30 pm
End of coverage.

Congratulations to NASA, CNES and DLR for the successful landing!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 07:31 pm
Are there 2 small rocks in the foreground of the context image?

Looks like one, and maybe some tilt?

https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1067153175877042176 (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1067153175877042176)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rocket Science on 11/26/2018 07:36 pm
Congrats to all the teams, well done! 8) Thanks for great coverage NSF, let the exploration begin! :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steven Pietrobon on 11/26/2018 07:39 pm
First image from lander.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lightsinthedark/46013968362/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/26/2018 07:41 pm
Here’s another attempt at cleaning up the initial image.

https://twitter.com/tsplanets/status/1067154165330255872

Here’s the lossless PNG of the image.

https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/22159/insights-first-image-from-mars/?site=insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: SciNews on 11/26/2018 07:46 pm
highlights from landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiufjRUmndE
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jeff Lerner on 11/26/2018 07:48 pm
Have to say that the results from the MaRCO cubesats seem to be quite good...bodes well for future use of this types of technology on future landing missions...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mlindner on 11/26/2018 07:49 pm
Another cleanup by Emily. From: https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1067157567808274432
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mlindner on 11/26/2018 07:56 pm
https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1067157662800973824

Andrew Klesh (MarCO's project engineer) was a graduate student of the professor, James Cutler, I worked under at University of Michigan. The electronics are done by AstroDev which is the company owned by said professor which developed the electronics via his lab at University of Michigan. Seen here in list of missions: https://exploration.engin.umich.edu/blog/?page_id=4

Quote
MXL provided a power system and a flight computer for the MarCO satellites.

So I'm glad I have some direct connection to this mission. So jealous of the people who still work there as undergrad students that most likely contributed. If they ended up re-using code from M-Cubed then I may have some of my code running on MarCO, which would be awesome, but I don't know what their exact architecture was.

Congrats to the entire MarCO team on great mission success and to InSight for it's successful landing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kansan52 on 11/26/2018 08:24 pm
Went to a watch part with the moderator being from the JPL InSight team. Much fun. The JPL team said the camera lenses cover will be moved out of the way and we will see better camera shots afterward. Walle-e and Eve were out of contact after the landing and it will take a few hours for MRO to be in position for relay.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 08:37 pm
highlights from landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiufjRUmndE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiufjRUmndE)
uncut video (i.e. real timings):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Q-pXVISD4
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 08:54 pm
uncut video (i.e. real timings):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Q-pXVISD4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9Q-pXVISD4)
Timings from uncut video:
(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/real-timeline.png)


Text format:



Event   Time   Altitude   Delta Entry   Delta entry sec
Entry   00.33.11   -   00.00.00    -   
Peak acceleration   00.34.47   -   00.01.36    96
Parachute deployment   00.37.03   -   00.03.52    232
Heatshield jettison   00.37.27   -   00.04.16    256
Radar on   00.37.51   -   00.04.40    280
Ground detected   00.38.33   -   00.05.22    322
Lander separation   00.38.50   600   00.05.39    339
Gravity turn   00.38.53   400   00.05.42    342
300   00.38.59   300   00.05.48    348
200   00.39.03   200   00.05.52    352
80   00.39.07   80   00.05.56    356
60   00.39.09   60   00.05.58    358
Constant velocity   00.39.12   50   00.06.01    361
37   00.39.15   37   00.06.04    364
30   00.39.17   30   00.06.06    366
20   00.39.19   20   00.06.08    368
27   00.39.21   17   00.06.10    370
Touchdown   00.39.38      00.06.27    387



Comparison to Phoenix EDL:
(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/phoenix-timeline.png)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/26/2018 08:58 pm
Post-landing briefing coming up shortly. NASA JPL channel is higher quality than regular NASA channel(s):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c8cNKXB4VI
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ChrisC on 11/26/2018 09:00 pm
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Getting ready for the @NASAInSight (https://twitter.com/NASAInSight?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) post-landing press briefing. Von Karman is PACKED.</p>&mdash; Emily Lakdawalla (@elakdawalla) November 26, 2018 (https://twitter.com/elakdawalla/status/1067174536297111552?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 09:04 pm
The post landing briefing began
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/26/2018 09:05 pm
Congratulations.
I just missed where Insight landed.
Position to Planned.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 09:11 pm
Phoenix/Insight comparison:


(http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/comparison-timeline.png)




Text:


Event   Altitude   Delta Entry   Delta entry sec   Phoenix timings   Delta Insight/Phoenix
Cruise stage separation      -00.05.41   -341   -420   -79
Entry      00.00.00   0   0   0
Peak acceleration      00.01.36   96   115   19
Parachute deployment      00.03.52   232   221   -11
Heatshield jettison      00.04.16   256   236   -20
Radar on      00.04.40   280   297   17
Ground detected      00.05.22   322   330   8
Lander separation   600   00.05.39   339   398   59
Gravity turn   400   00.05.42   342   399   57
Constant velocity   50   00.06.01   361   422   61
Touchdown   0   00.06.27   387   440   53
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:16 pm
Reminding this is done by the science team as an endeavor for all humankind.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:17 pm
Captioned (raw) first image identifying some features.

Image analysis confirms <2º of tilt, so first appearances, as usual, were deceiving!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mlindner on 11/26/2018 09:21 pm
https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1067157662800973824

Andrew Klesh (MarCO's project engineer) was a graduate student of the professor, James Cutler, I worked under at University of Michigan. The electronics are done by AstroDev which is the company owned by said professor which developed the electronics via his lab at University of Michigan. Seen here in list of missions: https://exploration.engin.umich.edu/blog/?page_id=4

Quote
MXL provided a power system and a flight computer for the MarCO satellites.

So I'm glad I have some direct connection to this mission. So jealous of the people who still work there as undergrad students that most likely contributed. If they ended up re-using code from M-Cubed then I may have some of my code running on MarCO, which would be awesome, but I don't know what their exact architecture was.

Congrats to the entire MarCO team on great mission success and to InSight for it's successful landing.

Andrew Klesh just mentioned there was interns that helped build the electronics! Most likely built at University of Michigan.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:22 pm
Mars seen from MarCO (after EDL)!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 09:24 pm
Mars seen from MarCO (after EDL)!

This will encourage future interplanetary cubesats for sure  :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:28 pm
As a nitpick (important, nevertheless), it's kind of a shame that they are only counting there to have been 8 successful landings on Mars - which is certainly not the case, no matter what you make of Mars 3's mission (ended after ~20 seconds, but which nevertheless transmitted the first-ever photograph from the Martian surface). It is especially annoying that they emphasized *all* successful landings were controlled from JPL  :-\


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artificial_objects_on_Mars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_artificial_objects_on_Mars)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/26/2018 09:31 pm
Aha!  They're talking about the rock in front!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:32 pm
Reminiscing on how he had to "fudge" data with "blablablah"[*] reasonable assumptions in order to perform studies for previous papers, and how he'd have liked to have a seismometer on the surface, that would give him the data in a snap... now he'll get that number to plug in and vindicate how close (or far!) he might have gotten at the time.

[*] - true scientific practice  ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:34 pm
Aha!  They're talking about the rock in front!

Rock not in the way of the instruments, very happy about its placement.

Also interesting to see the sand displaced by either the landing engines or wind, shows it's a sandy environment.

Very close to bullseye landing, do not have the precise numbers right now.

Expect to collect 6±3 impact signals with SEIS.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:40 pm
First camera dust cover dropped on Sol 2 (now is Sol 0), second Sol 3.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:43 pm
Brindestine gives a nice explanation about current NASA plans for manned Mars and Moon architectures. I must say I (against all expectations) am quite impressed by this Administrator.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:47 pm
MarCO-A performed radio-occultation science measurements too.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:50 pm
2-3 months for final instrument deployment, a few weeks for initial placement assessments.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/26/2018 09:56 pm
High-fiveing team members :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kansan52 on 11/26/2018 10:01 pm
The statement was made that the NAV and EDL times were just 'fired'. Maybe it was meant as a joke but what does happen for them now? Move to Mars Lander 2020?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: speedevil on 11/26/2018 10:05 pm
Does anyone know how the just-prior to EDL mars atmosphere is being measured/simulated for this mission, and any links?
Generic: http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/
To be specific - how is NASA simulating this, from what raw data, and what are the errors in this process - not what are the 'cooked' outputs of their simulations.

Wondering for future missions that may use different entries, and how much knowledge of the atmosphere might constrain them.
I've not found any scientific publications on this.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 10:06 pm

Simulator updated to real Insight timings (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/index-real.html), synched with both simulation (left video) and control room video (right).jump to 33:06 and wait for "atmosphere enty mark" to press second button.
Then relax and just watch.
But you won't be so much relaxed indeed! ;-)
Note that exact timing for Insight makes the Phoenix video simulation a little inadequate, so some sequences are repeated twice.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/26/2018 10:10 pm
Does anyone know how the just-prior to EDL mars atmosphere is being measured/simulated for this mission, and any links?
Generic: http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/ (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/)
To be specific - how is NASA simulating this, from what raw data, and what are the errors in this process - not what are the 'cooked' outputs of their simulations.
.
Horizons data mix recorded telemetries to scheduled behaviour, it's written in the (long) header of each Horizons output:
LINK (https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons_batch.cgi?batch=1&MAKE_EPHEM=%27YES%27&TABLE_TYPE=%27VECTORS%27&OUT_UNITS=%27KM-S%27&REFTemplateANE=%27ECLIPTIC%27&REF_SYSTEM=%27J2000%27&VECT_CORR=%27NONE%27&VEC_LABELS=%27YES%27&VEC_DELTA_T=%27NO%27&CSV_FORMAT=%27YES%27&OBJ_DATA=%27YES%27&VEC_TABLE=%276%27&START_TIME=%272018-11-01%2000:00%27&STOP_TIME=%272018-11-26%2000:00%27&STEP_SIZE=%271%20d%27&COMMAND=%27-189%27&CENTER=%27@499%27)


Excerpt:
[SPACECRAFT TRAJECTORY:   Trajectory here starts after Centaur launch stage separation (cruise phase). Post-launch trajectory from InSight Navigation (JPL).
A fit to tracking data through 2018-Nov-22 19:27, predicts thereafter.
Trajectory files                           Start (TDB)           End (TDB)
 --------------------------------------  -----------------   -----------------
od002_v1.V0.1                           2018-May-05 12:39   2018-May-05 21:00
od037_v1_delTCAL.V0.1                   2018-May-05 21:00   2018-Jun-08 00:00
od092_v1.V0.1                           2018-Jun-08 00:00   2018-Jul-29 00:01
od102_v1.V0.1                           2018-Jul-29 00:01   2018-Oct-12 19:00
od110_v2_V0.1                           2018-Oct-12 19:00   2018-Nov-26 19:40
4day_landed.V0.1                        2018-Nov-26 19:40   2018-Nov-29 19:40 *******************************************************************************
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/26/2018 10:23 pm
"The statement was made that the NAV and EDL times were just 'fired'"

Yes - recycling a joke from the Curiosity landing press conference.  Naturally those people will have other projects to work on, Mars 2020 especially. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/26/2018 10:24 pm
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Eosterwine on 11/26/2018 10:29 pm
MRO is downlinking data right now, hopefully they got that shot of the lander under the parachute.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: haywoodfloyd on 11/26/2018 10:45 pm
I haven't seen or heard anything yet about solar panel deploy.

Correction...I just read that notice of solar panel deployment won't be until 8:35pm
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kansan52 on 11/26/2018 10:49 pm
At the watch event comments my expectations are another hour or two from this posting before confirmation of deploy.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Eosterwine on 11/26/2018 10:55 pm
I haven't seen or heard anything yet about solar panel deploy.

Correction...I just read that notice of solar panel deployment won't be until 8:35pm

http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2018/mars-insight-landing-preview.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: sghill on 11/26/2018 11:06 pm
I hope we get several images with the dust cap on. If we can compare them and anything changes, it could be evidence of evaporation of water and perchlorate like we saw with Phoenix's landing struts.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: worldtimedate on 11/26/2018 11:09 pm
Nasa's InSight probe lands on Mars for unprecedented seismic mission (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/nasas-insight-lands-on-mars-after-six-month-journey/articleshow/66818648.cms)

Nasa's Mars lander InSight touched down safely on the surface of the Red Planet on Monday to begin its two-year mission as the first spacecraft designed to explore the deep interior of another world.

Engineers at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) near Los Angeles said the successful landing was confirmed by signals relayed to Earth from one of two miniature satellites that were launched along with InSight and flying past Mars when it arrived shortly before 3pm EST (2000 GMT).

The three-legged InSight spacecraft reached the surface after being slowed by a parachute and braking engines
It was Nasa's ninth attempt to land at Mars since the 1976 Viking probes
Nasa last landed on Mars in 2012 with the Curiosity rover

The landing capped a six-month journey of 301 million miles (548 million km) from Earth, following its launch from California in May. Carrying instruments that detect planetary heat and seismic rumblings never measured anywhere else but Earth, the stationary lander streaked into the thin Martian atmosphere at 12,300 miles (19,795 km) per hour.

InSight will spend 24 months - about one Martian year - taking seismic and temperature readings to unlock mysteries about how Mars formed and, by extension, the origins of the Earth and other rocky planets of the inner solar system.

The stationary probe is programmed to pause for 16 minutes for the dust to settle, literally, around its landing site, before disc-shaped solar panels are unfurled like wings to provide power to the spacecraft.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lars-J on 11/26/2018 11:19 pm
A processed version with perspective correction... One that will be outdated the moment the dust cover is off. :)

https://twitter.com/_RomanTkachenko/status/1067179814535208967
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: worldtimedate on 11/26/2018 11:24 pm
One Day from Mars Landing: InSight Team Q&A
https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/22158/one-day-from-mars-landing-insight-team-qa/?site=insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ZachS09 on 11/27/2018 12:10 am
Congratulations to NASA on the successful landing of InSight!

You've proved me wrong, surprisingly!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Michael Baylor on 11/27/2018 01:23 am
Confirmation of solar array deployment appears to be running a bit late. Bobak says no cause for concern yet.

https://twitter.com/tweetsoutloud/status/1067241574667407366
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Michael Baylor on 11/27/2018 01:30 am
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1067243913382105088
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 11/27/2018 01:31 am
There's been another downlink already, because we have a picture of the deck.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/27/2018 01:48 am
Another ICC image also appears to be posted on the website:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 11/27/2018 01:57 am
Another ICC image also appears to be posted on the website:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight

Those two ICC shots can be combined to remove the dust particles only present in one or the other.

That's what I've done here.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/27/2018 02:07 am
Here's your confirmation :)

https://twitter.com/NASAJPL/status/1067253443339776000
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 11/27/2018 02:14 am
Here's your confirmation :)

The news release that tweet links to is pretty good.

Quote
InSight's twin solar arrays are each 7 feet (2.2 meters) wide; when they're open, the entire lander is about the size of a big 1960s convertible. Mars has weaker sunlight than Earth because it's much farther away from the Sun. But the lander doesn't need much to operate: The panels provide 600 to 700 watts on a clear day, enough to power a household blender and plenty to keep its instruments conducting science on the Red Planet. Even when dust covers the panels - what is likely to be a common occurrence on Mars - they should be able to provide at least 200 to 300 watts.

The panels are modeled on those used with NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander, though InSight's are slightly larger in order to provide more power output and to increase their structural strength. These changes were necessary to support operations for one full Mars year (two Earth years).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Eosterwine on 11/27/2018 02:21 am
Also something to remember..... the DSN Now page showed no downlink from Mars Odyssey when it was scheduled to, so we really cant rely on it to show accurate spacecraft communication status  :-\
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Michael Baylor on 11/27/2018 02:23 am
JPL reposted the tweet.
https://twitter.com/NASAJPL/status/1067255524335345665
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 11/27/2018 02:31 am
Also something to remember..... the DSN Now page showed no downlink from Mars Odyssey when it was scheduled to, so we really cant rely on it to show accurate spacecraft communication status  :-\

I think DSN Now probably worked fine and instead there was some kind of miscommunication about the downlink time.  According to the dsn_status twitter there was a 142kb/s downlink from Odyssey at 6:22PM EST:

https://twitter.com/dsn_status/status/1067196949948964864

The dsn_status account is just somebody who wrote a bot that posts when the DSN Now data changes.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/27/2018 02:37 am
Folks on UMSF explained that except for false positives on DSN Now, there are quite a lot of false negatives :) So Mars Odyssey really communicated to the ground.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Mapperuo on 11/27/2018 07:08 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu2Ba2ok51Q
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spaceman100 on 11/27/2018 07:33 am
Brilliant work JPL, NASA, Locheed Martin, ULA etc !!!

Wish there was footage of the landing ! ;)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: tyrred on 11/27/2018 07:51 am
Hell yeah  8)  More robots on Mars.  Can't wait to see the crane deploy that seismograph with the chain mail hat. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 11/27/2018 08:23 am
Press release, 27 November 2018

Mars mole HP3 arrives at the Red Planet - NASA InSight touches down on Mars carrying a DLR experiment

Just a few weeks from now, the German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum fuer Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) HP3 Mole will start hammering its way automatically into the subsoil of the Red Planet to measure its inner heat. "By participating in the InSight
mission, Germany is making a major contribution to expanding our knowledge of the Red Planet," emphasises Pascale Ehrenfreund, Chair of the DLR Executive Board. "The HP3 experiment is an innovation in the exploration of our neighbouring planet – both
scientifically and technologically. It is a view beyond the next horizon." The HP3 experiment landed on Mars with NASA's InSight space probe on 26 November 2018 at 20:52:59 Central European Time. The geophysical observatory travelled almost 500 million
kilometres before settling gently on the Elysium Planitia plains just north of the Martian equator. "We are delighted that a DLR experiment is now present on Mars for the first time and that we can make a significant contribution to this hitherto unparalleled
exploration of the Red Planet's interior, which is certain to go down in aerospace history," says Hansjoerg Dittus, DLR Executive Board Member for Space Research and Technology after observing the landing from Pasadena, California.

Thomas Jarzombek, German Federal Government Coordinator for Aerospace, is also extremely pleased: "I congratulate the project managers on the successful landing on Mars. The InSight mission demonstrates the achievements of international cooperation
in space research. Germany has made a key contribution to the HP3 experiment, which is proof of DLR's outstanding and internationally recognised expertise. In addition, Germany is providing additional contributions to the mission as part of the National
Programme for Space and Innovation of the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy. All in all, this is proof of the German Government's successful support to science and technology."

The InSight mission was launched from Vandenberg in California on 5 May 2018. Hurtling into the Martian atmosphere at a speed of 19,800 kilometres per hour, it was slowed down to a landing velocity of just eight kilometres per hour in less than seven
minutes. Its three legs finally came to rest on Martian soil at 20:52:59 CET. "We are very excited about the upcoming analysis of the landing craft's environment. Once that it complete, we will select the ideal place to position the instruments with
our US colleagues", says Tilman Spohn, Principal Investigator of the HP3 experiment from the DLR Institute of Planetary Research in Berlin. "Our research will begin then."

A robot arm will place the Martian 'Mole' in January

Once InSight has delivered the first images of the area around the landing site, the next step will be to produce a 3D model of the surface. Researchers will then use this model to decide where – within a radius of one-and-a-half metres – the robot
arm should deposit the Mars mole HP3. This will take place in early January. Release of the Mars seismometer SEIS (Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure) is already scheduled for December. DLR is also involved in this experiment, which was built
by an international consortium led by the French space agency CNES.

"An ideal location for our Mars mole would be one that is as sandy as possible and does not contain any rocks," says HP3 operations manager Christian Krause from the DLR Microgravity User Support Center (MUSC), who will teleoperate the Mole together
with his colleagues, initially in the control room at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in California and later at the control centre in Cologne. The Mole will burrow its way in small increments to a depth of up to five metres, dragging a tether
equipped with highly accurate temperature sensors. The Mole will take a break every 50 centimetres to measure the thermal conductivity of the Martian soil. In total, the temperature sensors should deliver data on the temperature gradient in the subsoil
for two years. Scientists will then use this data and the thermal conductivity to calculate how much heat the interior of Mars is still emitting today. "Our plan is to use these measurements to determine the temperature of Mars' interior and to characterise
the current geological activity beneath its crust," explains Spohn. "In addition, we want to find out how the interior of Mars developed, whether it still possesses a hot molten core and what makes Earth so special by comparison." At present, researchers
only have imprecise knowledge of how Mars is structured into a core, mantle and crust, their individual properties and why the dynamism of its inner development diminished so quickly compared to Earth.

The HP3 experiment on the NASA InSight mission

The InSight mission is being conducted by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California, on behalf of NASA's Science Mission Directorate. InSight is a mission in the NASA Discovery Program. DLR is contributing the HP3 experiment to the
mission. Scientific leadership lies with the DLR Institute of Planetary Research, which was also in charge of developing the experiment in collaboration with the DLR institutes of Space Systems, Optical Sensor Systems, Space Operations and Astronaut
Training, Composite Structures and Adaptive Systems, System Dynamics and Control, as well as the Institute of Robotics and Mechatronics. Industrial partners are Astronika and the CBK Space Research Centre, Magson GmbH and Sonaca SA. The scientific
partners are the ÖAW Space Research Institute in the Austrian Academy of Sciences and the University of Kaiserslautern. The DLR Microgravity User Support Center (MUSC) in Cologne is responsible for HP3 operations.

In addition, the DLR Space Administration, with funding from the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy, supported a contribution of the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research to the French main instrument.

Detailed information on InSight and the HP3 experiment are available on DLR's dedicated mission site: www.dlr.de/en/insight. For mission updates follow @NASAInSight on Twitter.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 11/27/2018 08:24 am
News Release Issued: Nov 26, 2018 (4:48pm EST)

Lockheed Martin and NASA JPL Successfully Land on Mars

Lockheed Martin-built InSight Lander successfully lands on the surface of the Red Plant to study the deep interior of Mars.

DENVER, Nov. 26, 2018 /PRNewswire/ -- NASA has a new spacecraft operating on the surface of Mars. This afternoon, the InSight Mars Lander, which was designed, built and tested by Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT), navigated the dramatic entry and descent through the Martian atmosphere and touched down on Elysium Planitia in the equatorial region of Mars. Lockheed Martin is the prime contractor responsible for the complete spacecraft system – cruise stage, aeroshell and the lander itself. Mission management and navigation were handled by NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) and spacecraft operations were performed by engineers at Lockheed Martin Space's Mission Support Area in Littleton, Colorado.

On November 26 at 12:52 p.m. MT, NASA’s InSight Lander sent confirmation that it successfully landed on the surface of the Red Planet.

At 12:47 p.m. MST, onboard software commands, developed by Lockheed Martin, fired six separation nuts and jettisoned the cruise stage of the spacecraft while it was 78 miles above the surface. That started a series of events that took the spacecraft through six different configurations and from a speed of 12,300 mph to a gentle touchdown on the surface. The data signal confirming the spacecraft had successfully landed was received on Earth at 12:52 p.m. MST.

"The InSight lander is a remarkable spacecraft. Through the entire entry, descent and landing it performed flawlessly," said Stu Spath, InSight program manager and director of Deep Space Exploration at Lockheed Martin Space. "NASA's JPL, which has been a pioneer in Mars exploration for decades, partners with both academia and private industry to bring the best expertise and innovation forward to make important exploration missions like InSight a success."

After landing, the spacecraft waited approximately seven minutes to use its X-band small deep space transponder to send a tone confirming the health of the spacecraft. Then, 25 minutes after that, the lander deployed its two solar arrays, with a width of 19 feet, 8 inches, to begin recharging the spacecraft's batteries

Two NASA orbiters, Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) and 2001 Mars Odyssey, were also involved in this historic mission. MRO received and recorded InSight data during its journey to the surface, and will send it back to Earth later today. Both MRO and Odyssey will provide UHF relay during the entirety of the InSight surface mission – Odyssey in the morning and MRO in the afternoon. Both MRO and Odyssey spacecraft were built by Lockheed Martin and both are operated for JPL by the company.   

Lockheed Martin has been an industry partner with NASA and the JPL for more than four decades in the exploration of the surface of Mars. Beginning in 1976 with Viking missions, Lockheed Martin has been at the forefront in the development of eleven Mars-bound spacecraft and has played a significant role in all NASA missions to Mars.

"Our team is thrilled by the successful landing of the InSight spacecraft," Lisa Callahan, vice president and general manager of Commercial Civil Space at Lockheed Martin Space. "With missions like this, there are no guarantees; historically, less than half of the world's missions to Mars have been successful. Every arrival at another planet is an incredibly complex engineering challenge. But that's what we do best at Lockheed Martin. It's an honor for us to partner with NASA and JPL on yet another Mars mission."

JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, managed by the agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Lockheed Martin Space in Denver built the InSight spacecraft, including its cruise stage and lander, and supports spacecraft operations for the mission.

A number of European partners, including France's Centre National d'Études Spatiales (CNES), the Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris (IPGP) and the German Aerospace Center (DLR), are supporting the InSight mission. CNES and IPGP provided the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS) instrument, with significant contributions from the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research (MPS) in Germany, the Swiss Institute of Technology (ETH) in Switzerland, Imperial College and Oxford University in the United Kingdom, and JPL. DLR provided the Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3) instrument, with significant contributions from the Space Research Center (CBK) of the Polish Academy of Sciences and Astronika in Poland. Spain's Centro de Astrobiología (CAB) supplied the wind sensors.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 11/27/2018 08:25 am
November 26, 2018
RELEASE 18-104

NASA InSight Lander Arrives on Martian Surface to Learn What Lies Beneath

Mars has just received its newest robotic resident. NASA's Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport (InSight) lander successfully touched down on the Red Planet after an almost seven-month, 300-million-mile (458-million-kilometer) journey from Earth.

InSight’s two-year mission will be to study the deep interior of Mars to learn how all celestial bodies with rocky surfaces, including Earth and the Moon, formed.

InSight launched from Vandenberg Air Force Base in California May 5. The lander touched down Monday, Nov. 26, near Mars' equator on the western side of a flat, smooth expanse of lava called Elysium Planitia, with a signal affirming a completed landing sequence at approximately noon PST (3 p.m. EST).

"Today, we successfully landed on Mars for the eighth time in human history,” said NASA Administrator Jim Bridenstine. “InSight will study the interior of Mars, and will teach us valuable science as we prepare to send astronauts to the Moon and later to Mars. This accomplishment represents the ingenuity of America and our international partners and it serves as a testament to the dedication and perseverance of our team. The best of NASA is yet to come, and it is coming soon.”

The landing signal was relayed to NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California, via one of NASA's two small experimental Mars Cube One (MarCO) CubeSats, which launched on the same rocket as InSight and followed the lander to Mars. They are the first CubeSats sent into deep space. After successfully carrying out a number of communications and in-flight navigation experiments, the twin MarCOs were set in position to receive transmissions during InSight's entry, descent and landing.

From Fast to Slow

"We hit the Martian atmosphere at 12,300 mph (19,800 kilometers per hour), and the whole sequence to touching down on the surface took only six-and-a-half minutes," said InSight project manager Tom Hoffman at JPL. "During that short span of time, InSight had to autonomously perform dozens of operations and do them flawlessly — and by all indications that is exactly what our spacecraft did." 

Confirmation of a successful touchdown is not the end of the challenges of landing on the Red Planet. InSight's surface-operations phase began a minute after touchdown. One of its first tasks is to deploy its two decagonal solar arrays, which will provide power. That process begins 16 minutes after landing and takes another 16 minutes to complete.

The InSight team expects a confirmation later Monday that the spacecraft's solar panels successfully deployed. Verification will come from NASA's Odyssey spacecraft, currently orbiting Mars. That signal is expected to reach InSight's mission control at JPL about five-and-a-half hours after landing.

"We are solar powered, so getting the arrays out and operating is a big deal," said Hoffman. "With the arrays providing the energy we need to start the cool science operations, we are well on our way to thoroughly investigate what's inside of Mars for the very first time."

InSight will begin to collect science data within the first week after landing, though the teams will focus mainly on preparing to set InSight's instruments on the Martian ground. At least two days after touchdown, the engineering team will begin to deploy InSight's 5.9-foot-long (1.8-meter-long) robotic arm so that it can take images of the landscape.

"Landing was thrilling, but I'm looking forward to the drilling," said InSight principal investigator Bruce Banerdt of JPL. "When the first images come down, our engineering and science teams will hit the ground running, beginning to plan where to deploy our science instruments. Within two or three months, the arm will deploy the mission's main science instruments, the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS) and Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3) instruments."

InSight will operate on the surface for one Martian year, plus 40 Martian days, or sols, until Nov. 24, 2020. The mission objectives of the two small MarCOs which relayed InSight’s telemetry was completed after their Martian flyby.

"That's one giant leap for our intrepid, briefcase-sized robotic explorers," said Joel Krajewski, MarCOproject manager at JPL. "I think CubeSats have a big future beyond Earth's orbit, and the MarCO team is happy to trailblaze the way."

With InSight’s landing at Elysium Planitia, NASA has successfully soft-landed a vehicle on the Red Planet eight times.

"Every Mars landing is daunting, but now with InSight safely on the surface we get to do a unique kind of science on Mars," said JPL director Michael Watkins. "The experimental MarCO CubeSats have also opened a new door to smaller planetary spacecraft. The success of these two unique missions is a tribute to the hundreds of talented engineers and scientists who put their genius and labor into making this a great day."

JPL manages InSight for NASA's Science Mission Directorate. InSight is part of NASA's Discovery Program, managed by the agency's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. The MarCO CubeSats were built and managed by JPL. Lockheed Martin Space in Denver built the InSight spacecraft, including its cruise stage and lander, and supports spacecraft operations for the mission.

A number of European partners, including France's Centre National d'Études Spatiales (CNES) and the German Aerospace Center (DLR), are supporting the InSight mission. CNES, and the Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris (IPGP), provided the SEIS instrument, with significant contributions from the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research (MPS) in Germany, the Swiss Institute of Technology (ETH) in Switzerland, Imperial College and Oxford University in the United Kingdom, and JPL. DLR provided the HP3 instrument, with significant contributions from the Space Research Center (CBK) of the Polish Academy of Sciences and Astronika in Poland. Spain's Centro de Astrobiología (CAB) supplied the wind sensors.

For more information about InSight, visit:

https://www.nasa.gov/insight/

For more information about MarCO, visit:

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cubesat/missions/marco.php

For more information about NASA's Mars missions, go to:

https://www.nasa.gov/mars
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 11/27/2018 08:28 am
Mars InSight Landing (NHQ201811260103)

Spectators in Times Square watch the video board of the Nasdaq MarketSite showing the live NASA TV broadcast as NASA InSight team members celebrate inside the Mission Support Area of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory after receiving confirmation the lander successfully touched down on the surface of Mars, Monday, Nov. 26, 2018 in Times Square in New York City. The lander sent a signal affirming a completed landing sequence at approximately 3 p.m. EST (noon PST) after touching down on the western side of a flat, smooth expanse of lava called Elysium Planitila. InSight, short for Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport, is a Mars lander designed to study the "inner space" of Mars: its crust, mantle, and core.

Photo Credit: (NASA/Joel Kowsky)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/27/2018 10:03 am
DSN Carrier lock and data.

https://twitter.com/dsn_status/status/1067372395546202112

Is this the first time the Deep Space dishes are receiving directly data post-landing, and not via orbiters?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: saliva_sweet on 11/27/2018 12:38 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAJPL/status/1067255524335345665

Did they get lucky to land on the smooth patch or was there an autopilot?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/27/2018 12:53 pm
Did they get lucky to land on the smooth patch or was there an autopilot?

There was no hazard avoidance logic implemented.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kansan52 on 11/27/2018 01:00 pm
Lots of planning and a bit of luck to land in a great place.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/27/2018 01:12 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is. That and the supersonic parachute. I don't like those things - might just be a feeling from seeing those parachute deployment test failures for MER and MSL.

Understandable about the no hazard avoidance software, though. That would have driven up costs significantly and this is a Discovery mission with heritage that goes back to Phoenix and even all the way to MPL.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jebbo on 11/27/2018 01:21 pm
Do we know the exact position in the landing ellipse yet?

--- Tony
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/27/2018 01:58 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 11/27/2018 02:48 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.

Pure luck, like in without Hazard Avoidance capability everything for the entire journey and EDL could be 100% PERFECT but in the final second it lands in a hole or hits a large rock. That's what he meant. In THAT sense I agree with him. For the rest I agree with you.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/27/2018 03:06 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.

Pure luck, like in without Hazard Avoidance capability everything for the entire journey and EDL could be 100% PERFECT but in the final second it lands in a hole or hits a large rock. That's what he meant. In THAT sense I agree with him. For the rest I agree with you.

I'll take good engineering over luck any day...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: yokem55 on 11/27/2018 03:27 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.

Pure luck, like in without Hazard Avoidance capability everything for the entire journey and EDL could be 100% PERFECT but in the final second it lands in a hole or hits a large rock. That's what he meant. In THAT sense I agree with him. For the rest I agree with you.
There is an engineering element in the site selection though in improving the odds. As long as you can quantify the odds of a bad landing for the specific landing zone, and those odds pose an acceptable amount of risk, then the problem becomes less 'luck' and more calculated risk.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: John44 on 11/27/2018 03:33 pm
Mars InSight Landing
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6634

Mars InSight Post-Landing News Conference
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6629

Mars InSight Landing Live Commentary
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6628

Mars InSight Clean Feed of cameras inside JPL Mission Control with mission audio only
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6633
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hoku on 11/27/2018 04:00 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.

Pure luck, like in without Hazard Avoidance capability everything for the entire journey and EDL could be 100% PERFECT but in the final second it lands in a hole or hits a large rock. That's what he meant. In THAT sense I agree with him. For the rest I agree with you.
There is an engineering element in the site selection though in improving the odds. As long as you can quantify the odds of a bad landing for the specific landing zone, and those odds pose an acceptable amount of risk, then the problem becomes less 'luck' and more calculated risk.
Landing on the rock/bolder indicated by the arrow might have resulted in a bad day. But scanning the local terrain (marain?), there are few similar sized rocks. Hence the probability for a landing incident involving a large rock or bolder might be smaller than 1:1000 (just guesstimating from the picture), which sounds acceptable for a robotic mission.

Still, Opportunity managed to end up in Eagle Crater, which is just 22m wide, in a region with a comparably low density of craters. Small number statistics can always bite you, but there are some risks one has to take...  8)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: DrRobin on 11/27/2018 04:23 pm
Pardon if there are already threads about specific InSight instruments, but I was impressed by the description of the HP^3 heat probe, "the mole", described as a self-hammering nail that could take itself up to 5 meters down into the Martian regolith (despite weighing only 3 kg and drawing 2 W of power). Does anyone know how deep in principle devices like this can go? Could a larger version drill down to the water table at a suitable site? https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/spacecraft/instruments/hp3/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: freddo411 on 11/27/2018 05:00 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.

Pure luck, like in without Hazard Avoidance capability everything for the entire journey and EDL could be 100% PERFECT but in the final second it lands in a hole or hits a large rock. That's what he meant. In THAT sense I agree with him. For the rest I agree with you.
There is an engineering element in the site selection though in improving the odds. As long as you can quantify the odds of a bad landing for the specific landing zone, and those odds pose an acceptable amount of risk, then the problem becomes less 'luck' and more calculated risk.
Landing on the rock/bolder indicated by the arrow might have resulted in a bad day. But scanning the local terrain (marain?), there are few similar sized rocks. Hence the probability for a landing incident involving a large rock or bolder might be smaller than 1:1000 (just guesstimating from the picture), which sounds acceptable for a robotic mission.

Still, Opportunity managed to end up in Eagle Crater, which is just 22m wide, in a region with a comparably low density of craters. Small number statistics can always bite you, but there are some risks one has to take...  8)

Agreed that it can be reasonable to take risk of order 1:1000.

Question:  I thought that NASA/Masten has worked on and demonstrated (on Earth) flying hardware and software for obstacle avoidance during landing?  Seems like that should be flying on all future Mars landers.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/27/2018 05:24 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is. That and the supersonic parachute. I don't like those things - might just be a feeling from seeing those parachute deployment test failures for MER and MSL.

I totally agree with you: from parachute deployment on, luck is at work more than Newton laws and engineering!
Did you know that (as far as I can understand after reading several papers) nobody knows the real attitude of a Mars lander from that moment on? The reconstructed angle of attack for Phoenix was totally unreliable, "for unknown reasons" (sic). "Most probable culprit" is the wind, whose speed becomes (or can become) comparable to lander speed once the lander slows down to 250 km/h (terminal velocity for a lander hanging from a parachute on Mars). But it looks like it's a "known and accepted issue in Mars landings".


If you add to this that there is no way to intentionally avoid holes&rocks, which are exaggerately abundant on Mars surface, it appears really lucky  that so many EDLs concluded with success.
IMHO as of now the bouncing airbagged landers method is still the more reliable one; not precise, but reliable.
A barely known animation (256 views?!?) shows that even in case of landing over a rock, the tethraedron containing the rover can easily flip on its side and get the needed attitude for safe rover deployment.
barely known animation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEvFyQNF90)

This makes current EDLs w.r.t Pathfinder EDLS look like Space Shuttle project w.r.t Apollo Project: much more science but less reliability.




This is my graphical interpretration of raw Phoenix data available on PDS:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/phoenix-aoa.html (http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/phoenix-aoa.html)



Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/27/2018 05:28 pm


Question:  I thought that NASA/Masten has worked on and demonstrated (on Earth) flying hardware and software for obstacle avoidance during landing?  Seems like that should be flying on all future Mars landers.
I think it will be used first time on MARS2020 rover (first image resulting from googling "MARS 2020 terrain (https://www.google.it/search?safe=off&rlz=1C1ASUM_enIT822IT822&biw=1280&bih=625&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=dIz9W86ZFZGUsAew2YCIAQ&q=mars2020++terrain&oq=mars2020++terrain&gs_l=img.3...22220.24960..25217...0.0..0.1067.4124.4-1j0j3j1......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i10i30.mm78t0d3f_Y#imgrc=y8h2ZX_E1qUVzM:)"):
(https://mars.nasa.gov/imgs/mars2020/Mars2020-Landing-Technique-animated.gif)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lee Jay on 11/27/2018 05:31 pm
For me personally, the most harrowing thing about this type of EDL is the fact that, in the end, it really does boil down to luck, no matter how good your engineering is.

Good engineering makes its own luck.

Pure luck, like in without Hazard Avoidance capability everything for the entire journey and EDL could be 100% PERFECT but in the final second it lands in a hole or hits a large rock. That's what he meant. In THAT sense I agree with him. For the rest I agree with you.

In this case, however, the landing site was carefully evaluated and chosen using data from orbit, so not landing in a field full of boulders was in large part "good engineering".
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ThereIWas3 on 11/27/2018 05:45 pm
The near ground looks particularly clean.  Could the descent engines have done that?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/27/2018 05:51 pm
Do we know the exact position in the landing ellipse yet?

Can they even work that out without having MRO snap a picture of it? I mean the *exact* position. I imagine propagating the last known nav solution and entry IMU data can only get you so far, precision-wise.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/27/2018 05:54 pm
The near ground looks particularly clean.  Could the descent engines have done that?

No, it's just a patch of relatively rock-free ground. There's a couple more of them visible in the Instrument Deployment Camera view, they're just foreshortened.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: saliva_sweet on 11/27/2018 05:56 pm
Do we know the exact position in the landing ellipse yet?

Can they even work that out without having MRO snap a picture of it? I mean the *exact* position. I imagine propagating the last known nav solution and entry IMU data can only get you so far, precision-wise.

I guess it should be possible to triangulate it fairly well from radio signal intensity and doppler shift over a couple of MRO passes.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/27/2018 06:04 pm
Do we know the exact position in the landing ellipse yet?

Can they even work that out without having MRO snap a picture of it? I mean the *exact* position. I imagine propagating the last known nav solution and entry IMU data can only get you so far, precision-wise.

I guess it should be possible to triangulate it fairly well from radio signal intensity and doppler shift over a couple of MRO passes.

I'm no radio expert by any means, but I'd assume no real-world antennas radiate isotropically for the first approach to work. Not sure MRO cares or records doppler shift, either.

I was actually thinking about doppler from earth-based ranging, but again, my gut tells me it wouldn't really shrink the uncertainty ellipse down much from the pre-landing estimate.

Trying to remember how they nailed Phoenix's location but am coming up blank. MSL was easier, IIRC, as it had a guided entry and also had some help from MARDI descent imagery.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lee Jay on 11/27/2018 06:14 pm
Do we know the exact position in the landing ellipse yet?

Can they even work that out without having MRO snap a picture of it? I mean the *exact* position.

Sure...just turn on the GPS.

;-)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/27/2018 06:14 pm
"    Do we know the exact position in the landing ellipse yet?

Can they even work that out without having MRO snap a picture of it? I mean the *exact* position. "


Matching features in a panorama with a pre-landing HiRISE image will do it if there are suitable features in the scene.  This is essentially what Ewen Whitaker did for Surveyor 1 and Surveyor 3 back in 1966-67 (using telescopic images for Surveyor 1)  But we will have HiRISE of it on the surface before we have a panorama.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/27/2018 06:17 pm
Question:  I thought that NASA/Masten has worked on and demonstrated (on Earth) flying hardware and software for obstacle avoidance during landing?  Seems like that should be flying on all future Mars landers.

Interestingly, a relative "first-timer", Chang'e-3, landed with autonomous hazard avoidance. Maybe it's more difficult to implement with heritage-design probes like Insight/Phoenix?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: matthewkantar on 11/27/2018 06:22 pm
I remember hearing that global positioning/mapping on Mars is still fairly crude, relying on decades old maps. Is this still true?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jebbo on 11/27/2018 06:24 pm
Can they even work that out without having MRO snap a picture of it? I mean the *exact* position. I imagine propagating the last known nav solution and entry IMU data can only get you so far, precision-wise.

Thanks. Wait and see time, again ...

--- Tony
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/27/2018 06:29 pm
I remember hearing that global positioning/mapping on Mars is still fairly crude, relying on decades old maps. Is this still true?

The entire InSight landing ellipse has already been covered with HiRISE: https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/spaceimages/details.php?id=PIA21489

If there's any distinguishing features around, it should be fairly easy to locate them in onboard imagery. The thing is, this site was pretty much selected *because* it is a fairly nondescript area.

In all likelihood, like Phil says, MRO will catch it before we need to try matching a panoramic shot of patches of darker and brigther soil against orbital imagery.

Lower resolution MRO CTX images might pick up the parachute and backshell and inform HiRISE where to point precisely.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/27/2018 07:37 pm
"I remember hearing that global positioning/mapping on Mars is still fairly crude, relying on decades old maps. Is this still true? "

Absolutely not.  The principle locational control is provided by LOLA on MGS, with the Mars Odyssey's THEMIS global mosaic registered to it and higher-resolution images registered to both.  Oh - I guess they are decades old! - but the control analysis is as up to date as the latest iteration.  I would estimate that the global mosaic and any individual image tied to it is located relative to the coordinate grid to about 60 m accuracy (3 decimal places of a degree - so don't go believing the long strings of coordinate digits you get from Google Earth/Mars).  One reason InSight and future landers will carry laser retroreflectors is to tie these locations down better still with an increasing number of control points.  Radio tracking of landers can also give a good position for the lander itself, but there are not enough to make global maps much better, yet.

This might not be as accurate as people would like, but we are spoiled by living on a world with 2 centuries of geodetic surveying plus (now) GPS.  Current maps are much more accurate than we had for Viking or Pathfinder.

Incidentally, that means you can't just accept coordinates given in Viking-era papers.  They have to be checked against modern maps.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/27/2018 09:19 pm
MarCO success vindicates use of cubesats on deep space missions (https://spacenews.com/marco-success-vindicates-use-of-cubesats-on-deep-space-missions/)

Quote
The success a pair of cubesats achieved in relaying telemetry from NASA’s InSight Mars lander demonstrates that such spacecraft can play increasing roles in future deep space missions, spacecraft designers believe.

Quote
The MarCO primary mission will last about two more weeks, he said. The two spacecraft will return other data collected during the flying, including telemetry about the health of the cubesats themselves and potentially other images of Mars taken during close approach.

The MarCO-A cubesat also indirectly performed science during the flyby as its radio signals were occluded by the planet as it passed behind Mars. Measurement of the changes in signal as it passed through the planet’s atmosphere just before and after being blocked by the planet itself could provide information about atmospheric conditions. “With that, we’re actually doing atmospheric science as we’re passing by Mars, and we’ll be digging through that data as well,” Klesh said.

Quote
Prior to the landing, project officials had hinted they were looking at options for an extended mission for MarCO, but were focused at the time on supporting the InSight landing. “We are discussing with [NASA] Headquarters on what we might do” with an extended mission, Klesh said. That included collecting engineering data to assess the “survivability” of the spacecraft and “seeing what other great science and lessons we can pull from those craft.”

https://spacenews.com/marco-success-vindicates-use-of-cubesats-on-deep-space-missions/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 11/27/2018 11:39 pm
Based on today's new images (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images), they've wiggled the robotic arm / grapple.

(click to see an animated comparison)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JJ starman on 11/28/2018 01:47 pm
May I ask,will there be a regular daily press conference on the mission ?
Thanks.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/28/2018 01:55 pm
Doesn't look like it, no.  The grapple wiggle is from releasing the lock which held it tight during flight and landing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/28/2018 01:58 pm
May I ask,will there be a regular daily press conference on the mission ?
Thanks.

Probably won't have such a large amount of relevant info to share until they start lowering the experiments, unless they discover something unexpected along the way, so I wouldn't expect a press conference until about a month from now.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ChrisC on 11/28/2018 02:31 pm
The grapple wiggle is from releasing the lock which held it tight during flight and landing.

Adding a little more info via UMSF:

Quote
... images with different viewpoints and other hoped for things will occur this week. Sort of like the first ten plays of a football game, the sol days 0-5 are pre-scripted and will occur roughly on the planned timeline (unless of course issues arise). Sol 1 had a planned grapple lock down release (as you see in the photos). Array power is above predicts (as things usually are since the predicts are a worst case analysis) which is a great result.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/28/2018 04:21 pm
Do we know how much the solar panels on InSight cost? I know they were slightly bigger than the ones on Phoenix.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jtrame on 11/28/2018 04:32 pm
May I ask,will there be a regular daily press conference on the mission ?
Thanks.

Probably won't have such a large amount of relevant info to share until they start lowering the experiments, unless they discover something unexpected along the way, so I wouldn't expect a press conference until about a month from now.

I'm hoping for the pictures from the camera on the arm when they move it up in a day or two to take a look around the landing area.  Wouldn't require a press conference for that, just a few posts.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 11/28/2018 05:21 pm
I'm hoping for the pictures from the camera on the arm when they move it up in a day or two to take a look around the landing area.  Wouldn't require a press conference for that, just a few posts.

raw pictures are shared in almost real time on the mission website
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=50&page=0&mission=insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 11/28/2018 06:25 pm
I had completely forgotten that I took a few pictures of an InSight mockup and French seismometer at the Le Bourget Airshow in 2015
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18803553728/in/album-72157654838335682/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18370590053/in/album-72157654838335682/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9228922@N03/18985874972/in/album-72157654838335682/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/28/2018 08:03 pm
Some not-so-great news. MRO wasn't able to image InSight under parachute:

https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1067874528187973632

https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1067874791648940032

https://twitter.com/HiRISE/status/1067875300178980865
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/28/2018 09:13 pm
Some not-so-great news. MRO wasn't able to image InSight under parachute:

That's devastating. Do you think InSight will be okay?

We can only hope.

As the U.S. politicians would say : "Now is not the time to discuss MRO pointing. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families of the affected".

Seriously though, a snarky response to a post from a non-native english speaker gets you +10 points. Congratulations.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 11/29/2018 08:11 am
This is the weirdest fight I have ever seen in my life.

In other news, here's an article from Science with a bunch of great stuff in it. (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/mars-mission-got-lucky-nasa-lander-touched-down-sand-filled-crater-easing-study-planets)

Stuff about InSight.  Not back-and-forth delivered solely through Harry Potter metaphor.  Large-scale studies on the effects of the latter have yet to be completed.

Edit: Said back-and-forth has been removed by the authorities.  Use your imagination. :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/29/2018 08:28 am

In other news, here's an article from Science with a bunch of great stuff in it. (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/11/mars-mission-got-lucky-nasa-lander-touched-down-sand-filled-crater-easing-study-planets)


Summary: Insight got very lucky by landing where it did, performing an "Oppy move" (i.e. ending up inside a small crater, in Insight's case filled over with sandy materials), as per the previous discussion about "good engineering" and its relationship with "sheer luck". It's very good news, because this should give a nice drilling environment for the mole and an adequate support for the seismometer.

The actual landing location is still not well-narrowed-down (by now, just within a 5-km circle), since the lander missed the bullseye. Final determination is expected NLT Dec 6th, because by that time an orbiter will surely have photographed the whole possible area. This probably has to do with the unusual flight profile it followed during EDL.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/29/2018 08:30 am
Hm... how can we be sure it landed inside a crater? We don't have a panoramic image yet, nor we have photos from the orbiter.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/29/2018 08:37 am

Hm... how can we be sure it landed inside a crater? We don't have a panoramic image yet, nor we have photos from the orbiter.


They say the crater's (technically, "hollow", since it's a filled-in old, small crater) rim is visible in the deck image. It's consistent also with the discrepancy between the flat terrain in the first close-up, dirty images and the boulder field farther away.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/29/2018 10:16 am
Landing Insight in Charts:
According to JPL Horizons data at 19:20 - 19:40 UTC, is older:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/assets/27717.0/1528412.jpg


According to pdf and live video, time 19:40 - 19:53 UTC:

and the last minute, live video, counting the altitude:

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 11/29/2018 03:15 pm
Summary: Insight got very lucky by landing where it did, performing an "Oppy move" (i.e. ending up inside a small crater,

In engineering equations, what is the symbol for "luck"? Is it a 20-sided dice?

Talking about luck is bordering on superstition and it's not really relevant here, or even in the article: it missed the bullseye, which I guess we would consider "unlucky," right? And it landed in a rockier area than planned, also "unlucky," right? But wait! It happened to land in a sandy crater in the middle of that rockier area, so it got lucky by landing in a smooth area in some unlucky terrain?

I would propose that all this discussion of "luck" just falls into what engineers consider to be error bars and uncertainty, and that good engineering is far superior to magic, any day of the week.

JPL and Lockheed Martin have good engineers. That's why this landing was successful.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 11/29/2018 03:24 pm
I guess we'll know more when InSight lifts up its robotic arm and takes pictures of what's all around it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Nomadd on 11/29/2018 03:29 pm
Summary: Insight got very lucky by landing where it did, performing an "Oppy move" (i.e. ending up inside a small crater,

In engineering equations, what is the symbol for "luck"? Is it a 20-sided dice?

Talking about luck is bordering on superstition and it's not really relevant here, or even in the article: it missed the bullseye, which I guess we would consider "unlucky," right? And it landed in a rockier area than planned, also "unlucky," right? But wait! It happened to land in a sandy crater in the middle of that rockier area, so it got lucky by landing in a smooth area in some unlucky terrain?

I would propose that all this discussion of "luck" just falls into what engineers consider to be error bars and uncertainty, and that good engineering is far superior to magic, any day of the week.

JPL and Lockheed Martin have good engineers. That's why this landing was successful.
Good explanation. We're lucky to have you here.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/29/2018 03:42 pm
Summary: Insight got very lucky by landing where it did, performing an "Oppy move" (i.e. ending up inside a small crater,

In engineering equations, what is the symbol for "luck"? Is it a 20-sided dice?

Talking about luck is bordering on superstition and it's not really relevant here, or even in the article: it missed the bullseye, which I guess we would consider "unlucky," right? And it landed in a rockier area than planned, also "unlucky," right? But wait! It happened to land in a sandy crater in the middle of that rockier area, so it got lucky by landing in a smooth area in some unlucky terrain?

I would propose that all this discussion of "luck" just falls into what engineers consider to be error bars and uncertainty, and that good engineering is far superior to magic, any day of the week.

JPL and Lockheed Martin have good engineers. That's why this landing was successful.

Criticising someone for happening to use the word luck as a shorthand after you were unnecessarily snarky to another poster just seems to put it diplomatically to be showing bad form as us British used to put it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: saliva_sweet on 11/29/2018 04:06 pm
In engineering equations, what is the symbol for "luck"? Is it a 20-sided dice?

Talking about luck is bordering on superstition and it's not really relevant here, or even in the article: it missed the bullseye, which I guess we would consider "unlucky," right? And it landed in a rockier area than planned, also "unlucky," right? But wait! It happened to land in a sandy crater in the middle of that rockier area, so it got lucky by landing in a smooth area in some unlucky terrain?

I would propose that all this discussion of "luck" just falls into what engineers consider to be error bars and uncertainty, and that good engineering is far superior to magic, any day of the week.

JPL and Lockheed Martin have good engineers. That's why this landing was successful.

I have to say I do not understand this reasoning whatsoever. None of the engineering that was done could have ensured this outcome, no matter how good it was. Claiming that it did seems like denial of uncertainties and superstition.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rocket Science on 11/29/2018 04:09 pm
Nice "hole in one" is all I have to say about it... 8)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 11/29/2018 04:30 pm
I would propose that all this discussion of "luck" just falls into what engineers consider to be error bars and uncertainty, and that good engineering is far superior to magic, any day of the week.

Come on Blackstar. Nobody is talking about magic and everyone, including you, knows that. The engineering to design, build, launch and land Insight is really, really top shelf. It just doesn't get any better. Nobody is saying otherwise - nobody. But there are limits to what engineering can do. After all, engineering is not magic either.

As good as Insight's engineering is, and it is really, really good, it still missed the designated landing zone target, the center of the ellipse. And that is because of circumstances that are beyond the control of engineering. Things like what the atmospheric temperature is on the date of EDL because that affects where the top of the atmosphere, interface contact and density gradient actually are. Wind speed and direction while under parachute descent only is not under engineering control. Things like that. And it's not magic. It's just recognizing what the limits of good engineering are, mitigating what you can and then rolling the dice. Because of factors like I mentioned, where Insight actually landed, in lieu of where the team wanted it to land, was a matter of chance. The condition of the surface of Mars, at the point where those uncontrollable circumstances ultimately set Insight down, was a matter of chance. Saying we got "lucky" is simply recognizing the FACT that in spite of those uncontrollable circumstances, the actual landing site proved to be favorable to Insight's mission. So yes - we got "lucky".
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/29/2018 04:55 pm
As good as Insight's engineering is, and it is really, really good, it still missed the designated landing zone.

Did it, though? The landing ellipse was rather large in extent and noone should really have expected it to touch down right in the middle of it. I don't see any reference in the article that it actually landed outside of the projected landing ellipse.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/29/2018 05:05 pm
It absolutely did not land outside the ellipse.  It missed its actual target *point* by maybe 5 km or a bit more but well within - very well within - its ellipse, which is a 99% probability ellipse.  That kind of miss is typical and results in large part from the unpredictable state of the atmosphere.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: matthewkantar on 11/29/2018 05:13 pm
If we acknowledge the possibility that terrain could have messed up the landing, even if that possibility had been hammered down to one in a million by good engineering, the fact that InSight's number didn't come up is lucky.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/29/2018 05:36 pm

In engineering equations, what is the symbol for "luck"? Is it a 20-sided dice?

Talking about luck is bordering on superstition and it's not really relevant here, or even in the article: it missed the bullseye, which I guess we would consider "unlucky," right? And it landed in a rockier area than planned, also "unlucky," right? But wait! It happened to land in a sandy crater in the middle of that rockier area, so it got lucky by landing in a smooth area in some unlucky terrain?

I would propose that all this discussion of "luck" just falls into what engineers consider to be error bars and uncertainty, and that good engineering is far superior to magic, any day of the week.

JPL and Lockheed Martin have good engineers. That's why this landing was successful.

Not sure about engineering, but in particle physics we call "lucky" a measurement that, while having low statistics, and correspondingly large uncertainties, turns out to offer the correct value after a statistically large enough dataset is analyzed. Similarly, an "unlucky" one keeps you concocting theories at a non-existing anomaly for years until you get more data. Nobody recites spells for protons to collide "the right way" (well, then maybe some do, or eat peanuts ;) )

Insight was lucky because it seems like a relatively large number of nearby potential landing sites would have offered more difficult landing conditions, perhaps even problematic, or maybe even fatal. All of them within reasonable dispersions caused my small, unpredictable last-minute atmospheric conditions only an active hazard-avoidance AI software would have been able to correct for, or not even that. All of it well within the 1-sigma calculated dispersion ellipse (or is it 3-sigma?).

It's indeed a dice, although it looks like a marble since it's not 20-sided but 20,000,000,000-sided, and it's perfectly well codifiable into equations, no magic involved.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/29/2018 07:03 pm
OK. Getting a bit rowdy in here. No Harry Potter swipes! ;D

Will keep it open, but start a new "update only" thread for post landing ops. It'll be led by a new article shortly (will post here with the link to the new thread).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 11/29/2018 07:14 pm
FEATURE ARTICLE: InSight healthy, prepares for a two Earth year primary science mission -

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/11/insight-healthy-two-earth-year-primary-science-mission/ …

- By Chris Gebhardt

(Awesome InSight EDL render by Nathan Koga for NSF/L2)

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1068235962994573313

New Update Only post landing mission coverage thread:
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46895.0
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rocket Science on 11/29/2018 07:51 pm
Excellent article Chris G, thank you! :) Great to have a new science station on Mars! 8)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/29/2018 09:04 pm
This probably has to do with the unusual flight profile it followed during EDL.
"unusual"?
What do we know about Insight actual EDL profile?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/29/2018 09:31 pm
This probably has to do with the unusual flight profile it followed during EDL.
"unusual"?
What do we know about Insight actual EDL profile?

https://mobile.twitter.com/MaxFagin/status/1066834837611270144

Highest velocity at lowest altitude of any previous probe.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 11/29/2018 11:40 pm
As good as Insight's engineering is, and it is really, really good, it still missed the designated landing zone.

Did it, though? The landing ellipse was rather large in extent and noone should really have expected it to touch down right in the middle of it. I don't see any reference in the article that it actually landed outside of the projected landing ellipse.

Fixed it to make plain that Insight was aimed at the center of the ellipse but missed it, apparently by a non insignificant amount.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 11/30/2018 01:23 am
As good as Insight's engineering is, and it is really, really good, it still missed the designated landing zone.

Did it, though? The landing ellipse was rather large in extent and noone should really have expected it to touch down right in the middle of it. I don't see any reference in the article that it actually landed outside of the projected landing ellipse.

Fixed it to make plain that Insight was aimed at the center of the ellipse but missed it, apparently by a non insignificant amount.

During the selection process at Elysium, the various sites being considered overlapped each other considerably.  All of them technically met the team's needs; it was just a matter of trying to pick the least rocky spot out of a region that was already flat and quiet.  So even if InSight was off-center from its primary ellipse it was still quite safe.

From what the arm camera currently sees, there's a definite resemblance to the old Viking sites with the exception that the rocks look smaller.  There appears to be one rock akin to Viking 1's "Big Joe" boulder, but I am unsure how to perceive its scale exactly although I doubt it is anywhere near as large nor would the team have allowed a region where rocks like that were common.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 11/30/2018 01:25 am
IIRC Insight landed at a higher altitude than the other missions. Does that cause a different EDL flight profile to be used?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: lamid on 11/30/2018 06:13 am

.ttps://mobile.twitter.com/MaxFagin/status/1066834837611270144

Highest velocity at lowest altitude of any previous probe.

Insight Launch press kit - 80mi, 13,200 mph
Insight Land press kit 77 miles, 12,300 mph
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press_kits/insight/launch/download/mars_insight_launch_presskit.pdf
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press_kits/insight/landing/download/mars_insight_landing_presskit.pdf

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/30/2018 06:52 am
We're currently 2 days without any new pictures from Mars. Some people assumed that at least the ICC cover will be removed in the meantime. Is this an indication of any problem which hasn't been announced yet? I'm starting to worry.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kasponaut on 11/30/2018 06:55 am
Yes me too :-\  This is highly unusual for a NASA Mars landing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/30/2018 08:11 am
For those interested, according to source code of [/size]this official page (https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/mission/whereistherovernow/)[/size] the "conversion factor" from Earth time to Mars time is 0.9732442967141575 , so once we know the exact landing time we can calculate the current local Mars date in sols.[/size]



Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 11/30/2018 08:18 am
This probably has to do with the unusual flight profile it followed during EDL.
"unusual"?
What do we know about Insight actual EDL profile?

https://mobile.twitter.com/MaxFagin/status/1066834837611270144 (https://mobile.twitter.com/MaxFagin/status/1066834837611270144)

Highest velocity at lowest altitude of any previous probe.


This not the "actual" but the "planned" one, anyway it's interesting.
I wonder when they will release actual EDL data in PDS... maybe one year from now? :-(
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 11/30/2018 11:53 am
We're currently 2 days without any new pictures from Mars. Some people assumed that at least the ICC cover will be removed in the meantime. Is this an indication of any problem which hasn't been announced yet? I'm starting to worry.

No there is nothing wrong. This has already been covered upthread. Insight has a lot of housekeeping to do as it unpacks itself and prepares to begin its mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 11/30/2018 11:56 am
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kasponaut on 11/30/2018 12:08 pm
We're currently 2 days without any new pictures from Mars. Some people assumed that at least the ICC cover will be removed in the meantime. Is this an indication of any problem which hasn't been announced yet? I'm starting to worry.

No there is nothing wrong. This has already been covered upthread. Insight has a lot of housekeeping to do as it unpacks itself and prepares to begin its mission.

Understand that - but this is not what has been the norm on earlier lander missions.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 11/30/2018 12:17 pm
Understand that - but this is not what has been the norm on earlier lander missions.

Why should InSight follow the "norm" of earlier landers? For one, just deploying the primary science instruments will take as long as the entire MER primary mission durations. Where's the rush?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kasponaut on 11/30/2018 12:28 pm
Understand that - but this is not what has been the norm on earlier lander missions.

Why should InSight follow the "norm" of earlier landers? For one, just deploying the primary science instruments will take as long as the entire MER primary mission durations. Where's the rush?

I am not saying that they should follow the norm. That is not the point!
Others and me are just noticing a big difference in the flow of updates and number of pictures and wondering why.
It is a perfectly normal thing :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jtrame on 11/30/2018 12:47 pm
Maybe this will help.  The sample timeline on the Insight website at NASA shows the imaging of the landing sight in the 1-2 week range after landing.

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/timeline/surface-operations/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: niwax on 11/30/2018 12:50 pm
We're currently 2 days without any new pictures from Mars. Some people assumed that at least the ICC cover will be removed in the meantime. Is this an indication of any problem which hasn't been announced yet? I'm starting to worry.

Clearly something has gone wrong: Embarrassing: NASA probe landed not on Mars, but on field in Brandenburg (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.der-postillon.com%2F2018%2F11%2Fnasa-brandenburg.html)

Original here (https://www.der-postillon.com/2018/11/nasa-brandenburg.html)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ChrisC on 11/30/2018 01:51 pm
Understand that - but this is not what has been the norm on earlier lander missions.
Why should InSight follow the "norm" of earlier landers? For one, just deploying the primary science instruments will take as long as the entire MER primary mission durations. Where's the rush?

And to restate what was said upthread in response to my similar question, this mission is very different from prior landed missions in two ways.  First, it's not in a rush, unlike Phoenix which was racing the approach of winter.  Second, it's not a mission that is based on imagery, unlike every prior mission to the Martian surface, which is witnessed by the fact that there are just two basic cameras onboard, not primarily used for scientific purposes (and they weren't even supposed to be color).

Now on Sol 4 ...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: sghill on 11/30/2018 02:32 pm
While we are awaiting new images, I thought I'd revisit a comment I made on Sol 0.

Take a look at the three images I've attached. I've combined the first two images as a .gif., but I left the third out because the contrast has been changed, so details are coming out that are hidden in the other two images. 

I believe we do see evidence for evaporation/ sublimation and melting of dust/water/perchlorates in the three images similar to what we saw on Phoenix's struts.

First, the background and horizon are completely static as are the shadows, so any changes between the three images must be to the dirt/liquids on the dust cover.

Second, we see differences in the amount of dust covering the lens in between the first and remaining images. There is clearly less filth on the lens cover in the second and third images, and many of the clumps are smaller.

Next, there is evidence of evaporation/sublimation. While the possibility remains that some chunks of dry dirt may have simply fallen off the lens cover, many of the particulates are clearly smaller without changing their position, which indicates that the dirt is comprised at least partially by liquid and not only solids.

Then, there are two hazy areas at the bottom that also look, to me, like window fogging that is clearing off. One area is at 5 o-clock, the other is at 7 o-clock near the bottom of the rock.  At first, I thought those were shadows, but none of the shadows on the rock or lander move at all in between the images, so the fogging has to be on the dust cover.

Finally, there is evidence of melting. I was surprised at this. I expected evaporation and/or sublimation, but not melting.  Take a look at the larger clumps of dirt/liquid.  These clumps are noticeably smaller in the second image from the first, but also they have moved position. Many of them have moved down, like a dusting of snow slowly melting on a windshield.  The clumps in the top right and lower right are easiest to see where the melting occurs, but it is noticeable all over the lens cover. Some clumps remain in place while some are sliding down. At first, I thought I was seeing new dust show up in places, but with a longer look, you can see that some larger clumps, even in the center of the image, are becoming smaller and moving lower in the second and third images from their position in the first image.

My video processing skills are rudimentary at best, so I'll ask those with better skills to further process and label what we are seeing if there is any interest or discussion. It's easiest to see the changes by downloading all three images and "page up/down" through each one in your photo viewer.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 11/30/2018 03:32 pm
There are two cameras on InSight, one attached to the body and one on the arm. The one on the body is called Instrument Context Camera (ICC) and is fixed in place. The one on the arm is the one that will be used to take panoramic pictures of the landing site. For it to do that though the arm needs to be unstowed and that will take a few sols.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 11/30/2018 08:46 pm
Success of Tiny Mars Probes Heralds New Era of Deep-Space Cubesats (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/success-of-tiny-mars-probes-heralds-new-era-of-deep-space-cubesats/)

Quote
Though WALL-E and EVE aced their main missions and are now streaking away from the Red Planet, their work may not be done. The duo could observe an asteroid or other object in the future—if they approach such a body closely enough and if the team gets money for an extended mission, John Baker, JPL’s program manager for small spacecraft, told Space.com.
Other bantam spacecraft will soon follow the MarCOs into deep space, if all goes according to plan. A phalanx of cubesats are manifested on Exploration Mission-1 (EM-1), the first flight of NASA’s Space Launch System megarocket, which is currently targeted for June 2020.

Quote
“Cubesats have incredible potential to carry cameras and science instruments out to deep space,” Baker said in Wednesday’s NASA statement. “They’ll never replace the more-capable spacecraft NASA is best known for developing. But they’re low-cost ride-alongs that can allow us to explore in new ways.”
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jstoker on 11/30/2018 09:07 pm
Why has the public information flow about Insight abruptly stopped? 

The only information of any real substance released since shortly after the landing are five raw pictures. 

How are the checklists coming along?  What IS the condition of the spacecraft after its voyage?  Is there anything holding up the science mission -- or the public information flow?

Inquiring minds want to know.  The failure to keep the public informed will cause them to quickly lose interest and wonder if taxpayers dollars were wisely spent on this mission.  This could be a big problem for NASA in getting future Mars mission funding.  Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jtrame on 11/30/2018 09:30 pm
Why has the public information flow about Insight abruptly stopped? 

The only information of any real substance released since shortly after the landing are five raw pictures. 

How are the checklists coming along?  What IS the condition of the spacecraft after its voyage?  Is there anything holding up the science mission -- or the public information flow?

Inquiring minds want to know.  The failure to keep the public informed will cause them to quickly lose interest and wonder if taxpayers dollars were wisely spent on this mission.  This could be a big problem for NASA in getting future Mars mission funding.  Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.

The first thing was the team took a well deserved rest after making the landing a resounding success.  Then they have to attend to a methodical process to activate systems and especially mechanical pieces that have been dormant for a few months.  Curiosity has been a great success I think we can agree, but it didn’t move an inch for a couple of weeks while each system was methodically activated, tested, and evaluated. Please go to the Insight website at NASA and look at the sample timeline.  They’re right on schedule.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rocket Science on 11/30/2018 09:39 pm
Why has the public information flow about Insight abruptly stopped? 

The only information of any real substance released since shortly after the landing are five raw pictures. 

How are the checklists coming along?  What IS the condition of the spacecraft after its voyage?  Is there anything holding up the science mission -- or the public information flow?

Inquiring minds want to know.  The failure to keep the public informed will cause them to quickly lose interest and wonder if taxpayers dollars were wisely spent on this mission.  This could be a big problem for NASA in getting future Mars mission funding.  Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.
Welcome to the forum! :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 11/30/2018 10:46 pm
Private missions will be a lot more secretive than public ones!  I do think it's a poor strategy to keep quiet.  Even a few lines each day saying 'powered up the arm and checked its systems' etc. would at least let people know what is happening.  But when we get into the world of either proprietary information (e.g a picture of lander hardware) or information which can be monetized (subscription only, etc.) you can be sure there will be a lot less floating around.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 12/01/2018 12:30 am
Looks like the natives are getting restless.  Good time for a new article:

https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8395/mars-new-home-a-large-sandbox/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: notsorandom on 12/01/2018 05:42 am
New raw images have been posted https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images Looks like the arm has been unstowed!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/01/2018 06:01 am
Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.

private enterprises are about making money. there is no money to be made out of planetary exploration
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/01/2018 08:12 am
Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.

private enterprises are about making money. there is no money to be made out of planetary exploration

Somewhat in jest. They can sell their data to the highest bidder or send the data to their underwriter. Someone like AWS, who than licensed the data out.  ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 12/01/2018 08:42 am
New raw images have been posted https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images Looks like the arm has been unstowed!

I'm a bit puzzled how there are still a lot of dust grains on the ICC even after removing the dust cover?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/01/2018 09:53 am
Has the cover been removed?!?
(https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0004/icc/C000M0004_596885510EDR_F0000_0462M_.PNG)


If so... it was not so useful!  :o
(https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0004/icc/C000M0004_596886276EDR_F0000_0463M_.PNG)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 12/01/2018 10:05 am
It was removed. What's more, the dust grain distribution is completely different with the images with the cover on, indicating this is new dust deposited after the cover was removed. This makes me wonder whether the engine exhaust might have piled up a lot of the material above the dust cover and then it just slumped down onto the lens once the cover was gone.

Are there any images available of how the ICC is mounted and whether there was space for a dust trap above the lens? This rendering (https://www.seis-insight.eu/en/public-2/the-insight-mission/technical-cameras) suggests that there shouldn't be a dust trap.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/01/2018 10:14 am
Somewhat in jest. They can sell their data to the highest bidder or send the data to their underwriter. Someone like AWS, who than licensed the data out.  ;D

your mission would still cost at least a few hundreds of M$. can you find any institution willing to pay that kind of money for scientific data?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Bob Shaw on 12/01/2018 10:55 am
Although it is indeed *possible* that we are seeing changes in the fish-eye images, I think that we are more likely to be seeing the depth of field of the camera being altered which will bring specks of dust etc into and out of focus as the camera aperture changes. It’d be plain if the image EXIF (or similar) data was available, but these are just early release images and not a dataset as such.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 12/01/2018 11:41 am
That doesn't compute, the ICC is a fixed focal point and fixed aperture camera.

Thinking about it some more, the ICC is a very wide field lens, almost 180 deg diagonally so it would have to be a really protruding, spherical-like lens. Looking at the image with the cover, it comes up that with the cover the visible FOV is around 140 deg so it's reasonable to assume the dust cover was also spherical, which might have produced a dust trap at the top of the cover and liberated that once the cover was off.

Either way, operationally this "new" dust is a non-issue, but it's a bit of a curiosity nonetheless.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: MattBaker on 12/01/2018 12:11 pm
your mission would still cost at least a few hundreds of M$. can you find any institution willing to pay that kind of money for scientific data?

Jeff Bezos could very well spend a couple of billion on a Mars rover just for the craic.

Not sure if NASA or other government agencies would give him trouble though, especially for juicy targets like Mars or Europa they'd probably want some oversight on the process to make sure their protocols are followed or even improved upon.

If he can spend $2 billion on non-profit homeless shelters and pre-schools I don't see why he couldn't just throw $2 billion at a space probe, not as good for PR and you can start the old "Doesn't really help us, does it?"-argument everyone here is probably all too familiar with, but I don't think he'd give his accountant restless nights over it.

And to get back to the mission, is there an outer and an inner lens cover and they only removed the first? I'd hope it's something like that because otherwise that'd be a shame.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 12/01/2018 12:33 pm
Somewhat in jest. They can sell their data to the highest bidder or send the data to their underwriter. Someone like AWS, who than licensed the data out.  ;D

your mission would still cost at least a few hundreds of M$. can you find any institution willing to pay that kind of money for scientific data?


Jeff Bezos could very well spend a couple of billion on a Mars rover just for the craic.

Not sure if NASA or other government agencies would give him trouble though, especially for juicy targets like Mars or Europa they'd probably want some oversight on the process to make sure their protocols are followed or even improved upon.

If he can spend $2 billion on non-profit homeless shelters and pre-schools I don't see why he couldn't just throw $2 billion at a space probe, not as good for PR and you can start the old "Doesn't really help us, does it?"-argument everyone here is probably all too familiar with, but I don't think he'd give his accountant restless nights over it.

@plutogno

If AWS is the underwriter of a Mars mission then a few hundred millions is peanuts. AWS is otherwise known as Amazon Web Services.

Once the data for a mission is with AWS/Amazon/Blue Origin. Additional mission by other entities to the same place will have a harder time getting funding to proceed. Since why would you repeat the same mission when you can get the data for a tiny fraction of the cost immediately.

You just have to face the possibility that off Earth scientistic data might eventually be commodify.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: gosnold on 12/01/2018 09:03 pm

You just have to face the possibility that off Earth scientistic data might eventually be commodify.


Highly unlikely. I'm no Blackstar, but I can tell you that good science data involves:
- choosing what data to go after. Either you have a brilliant idea and hope you are right, or you need to see what scientific consensus forms, which takes a long time
- building an instrument to collect it, which in many cases means a lot of design work and testing to make sure it is high-performance, lightweight and robust. That's extremely qualified work with a very small market, so it's not a very interesting business
- analysing the data, with the instrument/mission designers having an important role

Bypassing the process to go and collect data fast with off-the-shelf instruments has a high risk of finding nothing of scientific interest.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: plutogno on 12/02/2018 06:10 am
Jeff Bezos could very well spend a couple of billion on a Mars rover just for the craic.

If he can spend $2 billion on non-profit homeless shelters and pre-schools I don't see why he couldn't just throw $2 billion at a space probe

saying that a billionaire could built a private mission "pro bono" is saying exactly the same thing I am saying: private industry can do a mission, but there is no money to be made out of this
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/02/2018 02:56 pm
Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.

private enterprises are about making money. there is no money to be made out of planetary exploration

Somewhat in jest. They can sell their data to the highest bidder or send the data to their underwriter. Someone like AWS, who than licensed the data out.  ;D

"Science data" isn't really a commodity. It's not like it's just offered up as a package and somebody then buys it.

Now there are some subject areas on Earth where data can be more of a commodity--some weather data, and probably some surveying and seismic data of value for oil exploration. But that's because you're dealing with highly evolved fields where it is pretty clear what the customer wants. When it comes to space science the customer doesn't have a good idea of what it wants, which is one reason it is collecting data in the first place.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/03/2018 03:53 pm
Continuing here discussion from the update thread: I remember some years ago I read about a Mars mission that images are usually compressed before sending to earth, and only if something interesting appears in the compressed image, then an uncompressed (or less compressed) image is asked to the rover/lander.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/03/2018 04:38 pm
Continuing here discussion from the update thread: I remember some years ago I read about a Mars mission that images are usually compressed before sending to earth, and only if something interesting appears in the compressed image, then an uncompressed (or less compressed) image is asked to the rover/lander.

That's what happens with the Curiosity rover's pictures, it sends thumbnail images and only sends the full size images if commanded to; but it has sent hundreds of thousands of images back to Earth. Not sure that the InSight team is doing the same thing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 12/03/2018 04:59 pm
It's not related to thumbnails (for which I don't really see the need with InSight given how it only operates 2 cameras), it's related to whether the data is returned lossy jpeg-compressed or lossless raw. Here's one recent MSL image that was downlinked losslessly (https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/02246/mcam/2246ML0120180080804544C00_DXXX.jpg), but the web raw page didn't care for that and just jpegged the bayerered pixels.

You can tell it's an RGB image in reality as the bayer matrix is prominent, whereas the various additional IR filters that can be used have similar transmittance through the on-chip bayer filters and the matrix is not nearly as prominent.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 12/03/2018 05:50 pm
Here's one recent MSL image that was downlinked losslessly (https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/msss/02246/mcam/2246ML0120180080804544C00_DXXX.jpg), but the web raw page didn't care for that and just jpegged the bayerered pixels.

Surely the final PDS product won't be stuck with having been jpeg'd somewhere along the way?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 12/03/2018 06:03 pm
Surely the final PDS product won't be stuck with having been jpeg'd somewhere along the way?

No, PDS products are archived uncompressed.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 12/03/2018 06:21 pm
No, PDS products are archived uncompressed.

No extra post-downlink compression, anyway.  Just for the clarity of anyone else reading this.  If the rover JPEG'd it, it's been JPEG'd, but the PDS product will be a lossless representation of that downlinked image, avoiding further degradation.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jstoker on 12/03/2018 06:22 pm
Quote
"Science data" isn't really a commodity. It's not like it's just offered up as a package and somebody then buys it.

Now there are some subject areas on Earth where data can be more of a commodity--some weather data, and probably some surveying and seismic data of value for oil exploration. But that's because you're dealing with highly evolved fields where it is pretty clear what the customer wants. When it comes to space science the customer doesn't have a good idea of what it wants, which is one reason it is collecting data in the first place.

Engineering data IS a commodity to any company trying to build a vehicle capable of landing on Mars.  There should be a link on the mars.nasa.gov/insight site pointing to a full compendium of all engineering data generated to date by the Insight mission.  Instead we are left with a few generic news pieces that could easily have been written before Insight landed.

As for Scientific data, consider this from a taxpayer's point of view.  We are paying $850 million for 709 Sols of scientific data.  So every day lost "so that team members can have a well deserved rest" is costing taxpayers over $1.1 million.  Data concerning natural resources like water, minerals, soil composition and radiation levels will be invaluable to those who are trying to plan missions leading to colonization.  So yes, almost all scientific data from the Insight mission could have monetary value to some US corporations.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 12/03/2018 06:27 pm
No, PDS products are archived uncompressed.

No extra post-downlink compression, anyway.  Just for the clarity of anyone else reading this.  If the rover JPEG'd it, it's been JPEG'd, but the PDS product will be a lossless representation of that downlinked image, avoiding further degradation.

Obviously, I thought that was a given.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 12/03/2018 06:37 pm
Obviously, I thought that was a given.

Yep.  Just for anyone else reading who might have been confused.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hop on 12/03/2018 06:47 pm
Engineering data IS a commodity to any company trying to build a vehicle capable of landing on Mars.  There should be a link on the mars.nasa.gov/insight site pointing to a full compendium of all engineering data generated to date by the Insight mission.  Instead we are left with a few generic news pieces that could easily have been written before Insight landed.
1) Hello ITAR  :o
2) Engineering details are published in academic papers, reports and presentations. These are often available on NTRS, but not the general PAO pages.
3) Companies working in related areas can enter into space act agreements with NASA

Quote
As for Scientific data, consider this from a taxpayer's point of view.  We are paying $850 million for 709 Sols of scientific data.  So every day lost "so that team members can have a well deserved rest" is costing taxpayers over $1.1 million. 
That's not how this works. The value of InSight's mission will be the total data set, and +/- a few days will have no meaningful impact on that.
Quote
Data concerning natural resources like water, minerals, soil composition and radiation levels will be invaluable to those who are trying to plan missions leading to colonization.  So yes, almost all scientific data from the Insight mission could have monetary value to some US corporations.
As required by law, essentially all science data generated by NASA planetary missions is made public on PDS after a modest proprietary period, for free to anyone with internet access.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/03/2018 07:16 pm
You just have to face the possibility that off Earth scientistic data might eventually be commodify.

Only if there is a specific goal and good chance of return.

Consider resource exploration on Earth, something with which I have been engaged in off and on for the past 35 years.  Data gathered is very project specific with a strong expectation of return, it does not supplant more general data collected by agencies which is public, nor does it replace institutional research, neither of which are expected to generate immediate financial return. The data is confidential during the project, but on completion it becomes publicaly available,at least here. 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/03/2018 07:20 pm

As for Scientific data, consider this from a taxpayer's point of view.  We are paying $850 million for 709 Sols of scientific data.  So every day lost "so that team members can have a well deserved rest" is costing taxpayers over $1.1 million. 

Slavery has been illegal for a long time.  Even resource companies give their staff time off.  The Insight team have both earned and deserve a rest.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/03/2018 07:22 pm
Additionally, the first week or so has been scripted out in advance. Most of it was pre-loaded into the lander and has been happening automatically. It's mostly switching things on and making sure they are functioning. You don't need all hands on deck 24/7 for that.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jstoker on 12/03/2018 07:41 pm
1) Hello ITAR  :o
2) Engineering details are published in academic papers, reports and presentations. These are often available on NTRS, but not the general PAO pages.
3) Companies working in related areas can enter into space act agreements with NASA

1) Less than 1% of the engineering data from cruise, EDL, or operational phase is in any way covered by ITAR.  The President could easily waive ITAR compliance issues on the entire body of data in the interest of advancing space exploration.  Has NASA asked for that?  Space exploration has always been portrayed as a civilian venture and Insight is an international mission.
2) This needs to change!  Space exploration is no longer an academic curiousity.  That the Insight EDL phase was accompanied by so much fanfare in the press conclusively demonstrates this.
3) So NASA is holding data from an international mission hostage until companies enter into space act agreements?  The data is public domain from the time it is produced.  No wonder NASA missions haven't lived up to their full potential as far as civilian benefits!

Quote
That's not how this works. The value of InSight's mission will be the total data set, and +/- a few days will have no meaningful impact on that.

What if there is an impact or a major seismic event on Mars during these "few days"?  The actual value of "missing data" is unknown; the potential value, huge.  The assertion here is that the American public should get what it paid for -- along with the Germans, French and other international partners.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/03/2018 07:56 pm
1) Hello ITAR  :o
2) Engineering details are published in academic papers, reports and presentations. These are often available on NTRS, but not the general PAO pages.
3) Companies working in related areas can enter into space act agreements with NASA

1) Less than 1% of the engineering data from cruise, EDL, or operational phase is in any way covered by ITAR.  The President could easily waive ITAR compliance issues on the entire body of data in the interest of advancing space exploration.  Has NASA asked for that?  Space exploration has always been portrayed as a civilian venture and Insight is an international mission.
2) This needs to change!  Space exploration is no longer an academic curiousity.  That the Insight EDL phase was accompanied by so much fanfare in the press conclusively demonstrates this.
3) So NASA is holding data from an international mission hostage until companies enter into space act agreements?  The data is public domain from the time it is produced.  No wonder NASA missions haven't lived up to their full potential as far as civilian benefits!

Quote
That's not how this works. The value of InSight's mission will be the total data set, and +/- a few days will have no meaningful impact on that.

What if there is an impact or a major seismic event on Mars during these "few days"?  The actual value of "missing data" is unknown; the potential value, huge.  The assertion here is that the American public should get what it paid for -- along with the Germans, French and other international partners.

2. Most people won't understand the raw data. Raw datasets are available after a while anyway, as mentioned by hop.

3. a. No, the data is held for the primary investigators. They get the first crack at the data, so they get the first chance to make the discoveries.

b. "The data is public domain from the time it is produced." Absolutely False.

4. It will go unrecorded either way. The instrument that would detect impacts hasn't been placed on the surface yet.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/03/2018 07:58 pm

What if there is an impact or a major seismic event on Mars during these "few days"?  The actual value of "missing data" is unknown; the potential value, huge.  The assertion here is that the American public should get what it paid for -- along with the Germans, French and other international partners.

What if there were a major seismic event before landing?  If only it had been sent on a faster trajectory!

Seriously a few days either way on a mission that will last years is not going to matter.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/03/2018 08:30 pm
jstoker - you demand engineering data for the spacecraft.  A lot of that will be proprietary Lockheed-Martin data.  You are not going to get it.  We will all get the science data.  There's no problem with any of this.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 12/03/2018 09:07 pm
For almost all the previous Mars mission, imagery of the Martian landscape was among the important science objectives. That's why we now have tens of thousands of high quality images from Mars. But imagery of the Martian landscape is not an important objective of the Insight spacecraft. All the people that are desperately waiting with baited breath for high quality pictures of Mars are destined to be severely disappointed this time around. Insight did not go to Mars to take pictures. To be sure there will be some very good imagery returned, but they will be few and far between because they are just not on Insight's agenda. They never have been. Insight will be returning tons and tons of data about what's underneath the Martian surface, not what's on or above the surface. That's why the spacecraft is not snapping all those gallery-quality photographs. You all can say you want pictures until the cows come home but Insight's not going to accomodate you. It will be busy gathering the subterranean data it was sent there to get. So just relax, chill and wait for the data to start coming back. It will paint a very different "picture" of Mars for you, a very, very interesting picture, one designed to please the planetary scientists. They will be "pictures" of what makes the geology of Mars tick. Images there will be, but they will be in the form of data analysis graphs and charts, not pretty photographs.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vapour_nudge on 12/03/2018 09:29 pm
Less of the Geology, more of the Marsology. Can I coin a phrase here
“Mars-I-physics” instead of geophysics? Did the Greeks mean Earth or earth when they used geo?

The marsiphysics promises to be interesting as Mars doesn’t have the oceans we have and many other features.  I do hope they record/detect Marsquakes. But, it will be interesting if they don’t. Will we then be wondering if the equipment malfunctioned?  I personally can’t wait for the seismometer to be placed and listening. Mars is such a dead, inhospitable planet on the outside. But what is happening on the inside is just not known.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 12/03/2018 10:00 pm
I guess it would be arephysics?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: gparker on 12/03/2018 10:08 pm
"areology" and "areophysics".
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jstoker on 12/03/2018 10:18 pm
jstoker - you demand engineering data for the spacecraft.  A lot of that will be proprietary Lockheed-Martin data.  You are not going to get it.  We will all get the science data.  There's no problem with any of this.

Detailed trajectory information, temperature and vibration data during entry and descent, subsystem status, clock and measured RF link parameters are Lockheed proprietary?  I don't think so!  By engineering data I mean any transmitted data not part of the primary science mission of Insight.  For example, pictures sent from Mars by Insight are properly engineering data used to position scientific instruments.  This kind of engineering data may be as valuable as the primary scientific data to some parties.

It staggers my mind to understand how any technology developed or used on the Insight spacecraft designed and constructed under a NASA contract could somehow be Lockheed-Martin proprietary.  NASA apparently doesn't know how to write the intellectual property rider on a contract.  The taxpayers are getting cheated as a result.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: matthewkantar on 12/03/2018 11:38 pm
It staggers my mind to understand how any technology developed or used on the Insight spacecraft designed and constructed under a NASA contract could somehow be Lockheed-Martin proprietary.  NASA apparently doesn't know how to write the intellectual property rider on a contract.  The taxpayers are getting cheated as a result.

I am sorry to hear that your mind has been staggered, I hope you get that sorted out soon, but when you buy a Coke, you don't get the secret formula to make Coke, you get a Coke.

Matthew
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ulm_atms on 12/04/2018 12:36 am
Why has the public information flow about Insight abruptly stopped? 

The only information of any real substance released since shortly after the landing are five raw pictures. 

How are the checklists coming along?  What IS the condition of the spacecraft after its voyage?  Is there anything holding up the science mission -- or the public information flow?

Inquiring minds want to know.  The failure to keep the public informed will cause them to quickly lose interest and wonder if taxpayers dollars were wisely spent on this mission.  This could be a big problem for NASA in getting future Mars mission funding.  Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.

This is a great example of the issue of instant gratification and it's problems for our future generations.  I want to know what is going on when I want to and I think I deserve to have it because tax money was spent so I am entitled to it.

Dude/Dudette...it has always and will always be the same steps:

1.  Operators gather data for the people who are the PIs on the mission.
2.  PIs go through the information for their research (reason for mission)
3.  PIs present/release their findings from the data (press releases, papers, etc...)
4.  Data gets released to public eventually as PIs finish their research.

The researchers who have dedicated a HUGE chunk of their time/life on this mission should be the first to the data.  Without them....there would be no missions.  They are the ones that propose the missions for goodness sake.

Any now for my curiosity, a question.....

What in the world do you want to do with all the data you are asking for, but being upset you are not getting fast enough?  I mean...they will release data over time...what is the rush/need?

MODS: Feel free to delete this if deemed need be and/or off-topic.  I'm just amazed at the bluntness of it and really was wondering what/why he needed the data so badly and quickly that he is calling out everyone that has to do with the mission less then 1 week in.  ???
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hop on 12/04/2018 01:37 am
For example, pictures sent from Mars by Insight are properly engineering data used to position scientific instruments.
Wait, images are an example of the "engineering data" you think NASA is holding back?  :o

As has been common practice for NASA Mars missions since pathfinder, the InSight engineering images are made public immediately. You can find them on https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/

AFAIK they are posted by an automated process shortly after downlink.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deruch on 12/04/2018 01:41 pm
As for Scientific data, consider this from a taxpayer's point of view.  We are paying $850 million for 709 Sols of scientific data.  So every day lost "so that team members can have a well deserved rest" is costing taxpayers over $1.1 million. 

Even if that was a reasonable way to look at staffing/mission costs (which it's absolutely not), behaving in such a manner would be the epitome of being penny wise and pound foolish.  Compared to well-rested colleagues, overworked/under-rested workers who are in critical operations positions have a much higher rate of making errors both in actual performance and in general judgement.  So sure, Simon Legree.  Let's by all means do everything we can to "save" a whopping $1.1 million while needlessly increasing the risk to a ~billion dollar asset.  :roll eyes hard enough to risk straining a muscle:
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/04/2018 03:39 pm
I would have spread that $850 million over the full 8 or more years of design and development plus future operations.   Makes a day of rest look much more attractive!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/05/2018 02:39 am
"Less of the Geology, more of the Marsology. Can I coin a phrase here
“Mars-I-physics” instead of geophysics? Did the Greeks mean Earth or earth when they used geo? "


Nooooo!  Please don't ressurrect this again.  Luciano B. Ronca was already writing against this in the mid-60s.

Ge- means land.  Geography is the study of different lands (countries or regions) encountered as people travelled around the Mediterranean.  Only later was 'land' extended in meaning to the whole world as a planet (Earth of course was not a planet to the Greeks)   Geology is the study of what the land is made of.   Geomorphology is the shape of the land.   Geodesy reminds us it can expand to mean the planet.  But fundamentally Ge- is land.

But the other argument of Ronca's is even more persuasive.  Take Geophysics, not an ancient greek term but a modern invention.  OK, so maybe it would be OK to think of selenophysics for the Moon and - duh - areophysics for Mars.  But how far are you going to take this?  Are we to have Ganymedophysics, Charonophysics, Bennuophysics and Churyumov-Gerasimenkophysics?  Obviously we need a single term to unite them, to show the basic conceptual similarity of these kinds of studies of all these objects.  Hey - let's use geophysics, the study of the global physical properties of each of these separate 'lands' or places in space.  By all means choose an alternative if you don't like my suggestion (good luck) but don't base it on the false idea that Ge- means planet Earth.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/06/2018 07:36 pm
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images

These new pictures are great; I hope for a full panorama soon. One thing's for sure: they landed in a great area for this mission. Almost no obstructions anywhere for the seismometer, so they can argue for weeks over which patch of clear ground to set it down on :p
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/12/2018 05:07 pm
These articles are from 2010. Is this tech on InSight?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100822150641.htm

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420524/self-cleaning-solar-panels/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 12/12/2018 06:18 pm

1) Less than 1% of the engineering data from cruise, EDL, or operational phase is in any way covered by ITAR.  The President could easily waive ITAR compliance issues on the entire body of data in the interest of advancing space exploration.  Has NASA asked for that?  Space exploration has always been portrayed as a civilian venture and Insight is an international mission.
2) This needs to change!  Space exploration is no longer an academic curiousity.  That the Insight EDL phase was accompanied by so much fanfare in the press conclusively demonstrates this.
3) So NASA is holding data from an international mission hostage until companies enter into space act agreements?  The data is public domain from the time it is produced.  No wonder NASA missions haven't lived up to their full potential as far as civilian benefits!


Wrong on every point.
1. It is more than 1% for EDL.   The President can not waive ITAR.
2.  No, it is not a commercial enterprise.  Academia provides most of the instruments and associated labor.
3.  Not true, only at the end.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 12/12/2018 06:20 pm

It staggers my mind to understand how any technology developed or used on the Insight spacecraft designed and constructed under a NASA contract could somehow be Lockheed-Martin proprietary.  NASA apparently doesn't know how to write the intellectual property rider on a contract.  The taxpayers are getting cheated as a result.

Because you don't understand the basics and hence you are making unsupported statements.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 12/12/2018 06:24 pm
 
Why has the public information flow about Insight abruptly stopped? 

The only information of any real substance released since shortly after the landing are five raw pictures. 

How are the checklists coming along?  What IS the condition of the spacecraft after its voyage?  Is there anything holding up the science mission -- or the public information flow?

Inquiring minds want to know.  The failure to keep the public informed will cause them to quickly lose interest and wonder if taxpayers dollars were wisely spent on this mission.  This could be a big problem for NASA in getting future Mars mission funding.  Perhaps we should turn Mars exploration over to the private space enterprise.

Private space enterprise will result (and has already) in less public data available.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/13/2018 01:48 pm
"areology" and "areophysics".
Cool. Now let's discuss about study of physics and geology on Churyumov-Gerasimenko.  ;D ;D ;D 
"Geo" is valid for each celestial body in the universe, and that's all.

--------------

For who is interested, I think within a year or two the EDL data for Insight will be available here  (https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/)as they already are for Phoenix (https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/phx-m-ase-5-edl-rdr-v10/phxase_0002/), MERs (https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/mer1mer2-m-imu-5-edl-derived-v10/), Pathfinder  (https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/mpfl-m-asimet-4-ddr-edl-v10/)and other missions:


Quote

  START_TIME                     = 2008-05-25T23:30:47.918                   
  STOP_TIME                      = 2008-05-25T23:38:36.899                   
  DATA_SET_RELEASE_DATE          = 2010-04-05
https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/phx-m-ase-5-edl-rdr-v10/phxase_0002/CATALOG/DATASET.CAT (https://pds-atmospheres.nmsu.edu/pdsd/archive/data/phx-m-ase-5-edl-rdr-v10/phxase_0002/CATALOG/DATASET.CAT)

It took a lot of math&research to get such processed data online.

In the meantime, if you want some "raw" data about surface images:

This undocumented API allows manually retrieving full list of available images as soon as they become available:
https://mars.nasa.gov/api/v1/raw_image_items/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=1000&page=0&condition_1=insight%3Amission (https://mars.nasa.gov/api/v1/raw_image_items/?order=sol+desc%2Cdate_taken+desc&per_page=1000&page=0&condition_1=insight%3Amission)
order: fields to order by; here it is sol+desc,date_taken+desc
per_page: how many results to get per page
page: select which page of results to retrieve


You can save the file locally and prepend   imageslist=  to the beginning of file contents and  ; at the end, so you can then just import it into an HTML page by using <script src="download.json"></script> : you'll then get an imageslist object, whose property list.items is an array of all images, where each item has these main properties:
item.created_at = creation date on Mars in EarthUTC timezone
item.imageid
item.extended.localtime
item.title
item.url
item.sol
item.instrument


list property total shows the total amount of images available, currently 196 .
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/13/2018 01:50 pm
Wrong on every point.
1. It is more than 1% for EDL.   
This is interesting: which part? From parachute opening on? Is that written somewehere?

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/13/2018 03:52 pm
These articles are from 2010. Is this tech on InSight?

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100822150641.htm

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/420524/self-cleaning-solar-panels/

Bump because I'm hopeful someone can answer this question.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/13/2018 07:07 pm
Page with full list and links to all images, automatically updated:
http://win98.altervista.org/space/exploration/insight/image-lister.html
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/14/2018 05:45 pm
Landing site before landing:
HiRISE Observation ESP_036761_1845 (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_036761_1845)
HiRISE Observation ESP_037262_1845 (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_037262_1845)

Approx coordinates of landing site: 4.5N, 136.6E


Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 12/14/2018 05:56 pm
This is the location of the lander in the hollow in a pre-landing image (ESP_036761_1845).

Note that this image is rotated to have north exactly at the top, unlike the press release image.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/14/2018 06:44 pm
This is the location of the lander in the hollow in a pre-landing image (ESP_036761_1845).

Note that this image is rotated to have north exactly at the top, unlike the press release image.
context image?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/14/2018 06:50 pm
Landing site before landing:
HiRISE Observation ESP_036761_1845 (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_036761_1845)
HiRISE Observation ESP_037262_1845 (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_037262_1845)

Approx coordinates of landing site: 4.5N, 136.6E


By the way: once fully released, the landing site image should be available at this link:
http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_058005_1845 (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_058005_1845)


rather than just this (https://www.uahirise.org/releases/insight/hardware/).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/14/2018 07:08 pm
This is the location of the lander in the hollow in a pre-landing image (ESP_036761_1845).

Note that this image is rotated to have north exactly at the top, unlike the press release image.
context image?
Context image and precise coordinates found:


(http://planetary.s3.amazonaws.com/assets/images/4-mars/2018/20181213_insight_landing_location_ESP_036761_1845_f840.jpg)


4.499897° N, 135.616000° E.

http://planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2018/hirise-insight-mars.html (http://planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2018/hirise-insight-mars.html)


Official image for reference:
(https://static.uahirise.org/images/2018/details/cut/ESP_058005_1845-labels.jpg)

Official NASA report:
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/mars-insight-lander-seen-in-first-images-from-space

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/14/2018 07:50 pm
There is a pre-landing anaglyph available too:
https://www.uahirise.org/anaglyph/singula.php?ID=ESP_036761_1845 (https://www.uahirise.org/anaglyph/singula.php?ID=ESP_036761_1845)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 12/15/2018 02:21 pm
The CLAW is my master!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 12/15/2018 03:48 pm
A thought:
If InSight operates long enough, could its seismometer detect the impact of the equipment discarded during the EDL of the Exomars 2020 and Mars 2020 landers?  I'm thinking particularly of the Mars 2020 cruise carrier.

It might an interesting chance to calibrate the seismometer measurements by the impact of an object with a known mass, trajectory, and if located in HIRISE imagery, the impact coordinates.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 12/15/2018 10:06 pm
Getting ready for deployment by look of it...at the least practicing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 12/15/2018 10:11 pm
The CLAW is my master!

He chose who will go and who will stay  ;)


Although seriously, is this a practice movement or preparing for the real thing?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 12/16/2018 07:22 pm

The CLAW is my master!
He chose who will go and who will stay  ;)


Although seriously, is this a practice movement or preparing for the real thing?


Looks like practice for now:
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 12/16/2018 07:44 pm
This looks like a steampunk machine :)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 12/17/2018 02:29 am
A thought:
If InSight operates long enough, could its seismometer detect the impact of the equipment discarded during the EDL of the Exomars 2020 and Mars 2020 landers?  I'm thinking particularly of the Mars 2020 cruise carrier.

It might an interesting chance to calibrate the seismometer measurements by the impact of an object with a known mass, trajectory, and if located in HIRISE imagery, the impact coordinates.

Don't know, but if ExoMars lands safely it too is carrying a seismometer so we will actually have the start of a Martian seismic network.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/17/2018 07:23 am
It will be interesting to compare Mars quakes to Moon quakes, which can last up to an hour. (https://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/15mar_moonquakes.html)
About the moon Quake, does it exist somewhere a database of their recordings? Were they (also) used to attempt a mapping of Moon meteorites fall?

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ames on 12/17/2018 07:28 pm
Contact

(https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0020/idc/D000M0020_598322917EDR_F0000_0901M_.PNG)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Arb on 12/17/2018 07:50 pm
...
About the moon Quake, does it exist somewhere a database of their recordings? Were they (also) used to attempt a mapping of Moon meteorites fall?

A quick Google gives https://www.darts.isas.jaxa.jp/planet/seismology/apollo/PSE.html (https://www.darts.isas.jaxa.jp/planet/seismology/apollo/PSE.html):
Quote
Passive Seismic Observation Data
This retrieval system contains all the Passive Seismic Experiment (PSE) data from the Apollo 11, 12, 14, 15 and 16 sites, and the parts of 'Passive Listening Mode' data of LSPE (Lunar Surface Profiling Experiment) and LSG (Lunar Surface Gravimeter) experiment performed at Apollo 17 site...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 12/17/2018 07:56 pm
IT'S GRABBING SEIS!  ;D
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 12/20/2018 08:07 am
Placed!
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7310&utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nasajpl&utm_content=daily20181219-1 (https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=7310&utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nasajpl&utm_content=daily20181219-1)


(https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0022/idc/D000M0022_598503999EDR_F0000_0568M_.PNG)

(https://mars.nasa.gov/insight-raw-images/surface/sol/0022/icc/C000M0022_598503429EDR_F0000_0203M_.PNG)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 12/20/2018 08:28 am
Placed!

GIF to go with that:

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1075629799693967360
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lar on 12/20/2018 02:23 pm
In the coming days, the InSight team will work on leveling the seismometer, which is sitting on ground that is tilted 2 to 3 degrees. The first seismometer science data should begin to flow back to Earth after the seismometer is in the right position.

How will they level the seismometer? Pick it up a little and jiggle it? Scrape sand away on the high side first (or only)?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 12/20/2018 02:34 pm
In the coming days, the InSight team will work on leveling the seismometer, which is sitting on ground that is tilted 2 to 3 degrees. The first seismometer science data should begin to flow back to Earth after the seismometer is in the right position.

How will they level the seismometer? Pick it up a little and jiggle it? Scrape sand away on the high side first (or only)?

It has motorized leveling legs that will level its base horizontal. They will also minimize thermal contact with the ground (which would otherwise constitute an important source of noise, remember SEIS is sensitive enough to detect jiggles smaller than an atom!) and ease the instrument settling on the porous ground.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: marshallsplace on 02/02/2019 08:16 pm
Hope this is OK to post. I've used an InSight NASA sound download to create an electronic composition.  The thing is, the vibrations recorded were very low frequency - almost inaudible with our human hearing range - but the recordings from the InSight seismometer contain so much complex waveforms and audio information you can make almost any sound with them!

An example is here: https://soundcloud.com/gjmarshall/marsinsight

Inspired by Mars and NASA InSight

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/03/2019 10:30 pm
Can the seismometer gather local stratigraphic information from the activities of the mole?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 02/04/2019 01:18 am
A layman's question. Does the operation of the mole degraded the performance of the seismometer since the mole is operating so nearby?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 02/04/2019 01:49 am
A layman's question. Does the operation of the mole degraded the performance of the seismometer since the mole is operating so nearby?

It  would while it is operating, it would create a lot of noise.  However the signal may be processed to yield other information,hence my question.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Johnnyhinbos on 02/04/2019 02:47 am
I would expect that the fact that these two payloads are both on the lander would yield your answer...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hop on 02/04/2019 04:56 am
I would expect that the fact that these two payloads are both on the lander would yield your answer...
I don't think it does answer the question. The hammering is just a byproduct of the engineering solution chosen to deploy HP3 to the required depth. If SEIS can get some information from it, that's a cool bonus, but it certainly isn't the reason the two instruments were flown together. 

From a draft version of https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-018-0512-7 (available from https://elib.dlr.de/121299/2/SPAC-D-18-00006_R1_1.pdf) (edit: published version available from https://authors.library.caltech.edu/87854/)
Quote
2.5. HP3 – SEIS Hammering Investigation
The hammering of the HP3 mole into the ground to 5 m depth to measure a vertical thermal conductivity profile will generate seismic signals that provide a unique opportunity to investigate the shallow martian subsurface (meters to possibly few tens of meters) using seismic-exploration techniques (Kedar et al. 2017). It is expected that the mole will require several thousand strikes to reach 3-5 m depth and each strike will generate a seismic signal. An adapted seismic-data sampling strategy to increase the recorded frequency bandwidth (e.g., Lognonné et al. 2018) will enhance the data analysis such that the signals can be used in a manner similar to high-resolution active seismic experiments conducted with sledgehammers for terrestrial engineering and environmental applications (e.g., Schmelzbach et al. 2005). The near-surface elastic properties can be derived from measurements of P- and S-wave velocities and attenuation, Q, and will be used to reduce travel-time and amplitude errors of globally propagating seismic waves as well as help test hypotheses on the shallow structure of the landing site.

As far as interference with SEIS primary mission goes, the cadence of the HP3 deployment is pretty low: https://www.seis-insight.eu/en/public-2/the-insight-mission/other-instruments states that it will wait 48 hours every 50 cm, and this LPSC abstract https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2014/pdf/1325.pdf states that the individual hammer strokes are 3 sec apart.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: mcgyver on 02/12/2019 02:55 pm
Ok let's see how many conspiracy UFO theories will be started by this picture!  ;D ;D
(https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=46895.0;attach=1542338;sess=44851)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 02/12/2019 11:18 pm
SEIS now has company via the HP3.

They moved it surprisingly fast.  Would that be because of practiced moves or motivated to rush by fear of (the American) government shutdown again?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 02/13/2019 03:22 am
There's a chance that, when InSight detects Marsquakes, some Marsquakes might come from the South Pole and its underwater lakes.  A study suggests even brine water might need extra heat to be liquid on Mars, and it is implied magma might be moving around.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2018GL080985 (https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2018GL080985)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 03/02/2019 08:05 pm
https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/
Quote
The mole has hammered for its maximum 4 hours yesterday and has reached a depth of at least 18 cm and not more than 50 cm, but not the planned 70 cm. The data indicate that the mole has reached that depth within about 5 minutes but then soon encountered an obstacle (the exact depth of which is not known).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 03/04/2019 01:20 pm
There's a chance that, when InSight detects Marsquakes, some Marsquakes might come from the South Pole and its underwater lakes.

There is no scientific consensus that such "lakes" actually exist and a lot of doubt about the interpretation of the data.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 04/14/2019 11:46 pm
Anyone got a guess how long before DLR determines that the Mole is not going any deeper?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 04/15/2019 04:18 am
https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/ (https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/)

Update from DLR may help.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lampyridae on 04/23/2019 10:00 am
https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/ (https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/)

Update from DLR may help.



Thanks for the link!

For those interested, TLDR; DLR says the mole is most likely stuck in unexpectedly thick duricrust (20cm as opposed to a few cm encountered elsewhere on Mars). Bracing with the arm should help it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 04/23/2019 05:22 pm
MARSQUAKE DETECTED!!  ;D

https://presse.cnes.fr/en/world-first-french-seis-instrument-detects-marsquake (https://presse.cnes.fr/en/world-first-french-seis-instrument-detects-marsquake)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 04/23/2019 07:29 pm
Listen to the first probable Marsquakes detected by InSight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLBP-5KoSCc
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ncb1397 on 05/01/2019 11:20 pm
Insight spots alien mothership on Mars?

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Chris Bergin on 07/12/2019 04:57 pm
ARTICLE: Rescue plan for InSight lander’s stuck heat probe gets underway -

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2019/07/rescue-insight-landers-stuck-probe-underway/

- By Tyler Gray

https://twitter.com/NASASpaceflight/status/1149724346601971712
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ChrisC on 07/13/2019 03:28 am
ARTICLE: Rescue plan for InSight lander’s stuck heat probe gets underway -
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2019/07/rescue-insight-landers-stuck-probe-underway/

One correction / addition to consider.  The article says:

"This would involve further use of InSight’s Instrument Deployment Arm, which has a small scoop attached to it for soil-based observations."

That scoop was never planned to be used on this mission.  The entire arm was copied from a previous mission (Phoenix, I think, may have even been a flight spare) and they kept the scoop on it.  I'm sure they thought it might become useful in a scenario like this, but no soil (cough, regolith) manipulation was planned for this mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 07/13/2019 04:57 am
That's not correct.  Two paper in Space Science Reviews in the last 6 months, one on the arm and one on geology (I don't have the links right now, I am travelling, but I think they were cited further up this thread) both refer to possible soil mechanics experiments including bearing strength tests and building conical piles of soil to watch how they are eroded by the wind.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: falcon19 on 08/07/2019 08:04 pm
Looking at the latest images posted from InSight it looks like pressing with the scoop hasn't done anything yet, the cavity is still open next to the mole. I wonder if they could push some material into the hole by sliding the scoop sideways or just scooping some in.

For some reason I find this problem so intriguing. It feels so simple (push a peg into the ground) but it needs to be done carefully and in a methodical manner. It is a good example of the limitations of robotic explorers. If there was a person standing next to it they could have had this thing in the ground in a few minutes.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ccdengr on 08/07/2019 08:59 pm
If there was a person standing next to it they could have had this thing in the ground in a few minutes.
Maybe.  The Apollo 16 heat flow experiment failed when John Young broke its cable accidentally.

Also, you know this thing was supposed to go 5 meters down, right?  That's 2x deeper than the Apollo 17 probe went.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: falcon19 on 08/08/2019 06:34 pm
If there was a person standing next to it they could have had this thing in the ground in a few minutes.
Maybe.  The Apollo 16 heat flow experiment failed when John Young broke its cable accidentally.

Also, you know this thing was supposed to go 5 meters down, right?  That's 2x deeper than the Apollo 17 probe went.

Sorry, I meant the current problem could be resolved quickly. A human could gently press the heat probe down to give it a little extra force until the friction is high enough for it to start moving on its own. And hopefully not trip on the cable.

Neat fact about John Young, thanks for sharing. I always thought his career was not talked about enough.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 08/11/2019 07:11 am
If there was a person standing next to it they could have had this thing in the ground in a few minutes.
Maybe.  The Apollo 16 heat flow experiment failed when John Young broke its cable accidentally.

Also, you know this thing was supposed to go 5 meters down, right?  That's 2x deeper than the Apollo 17 probe went.

5 m always seems ridiculously optimistic
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ccdengr on 08/11/2019 08:51 pm
5 m always seems ridiculously optimistic
There was a lot of Earth testing but it always seemed to be in fairly uniform sand.  As near as I can tell the system is completely unable to deal with rocks, and I'd think that the chance of not hitting a rock in 5 meters would be pretty low -- it certainly would be in my back yard, not that it's a good analog for Mars!  They seem to be saying the problem is unexpectedly low soil friction, not a rock, but I'm not sure how you can tell one from the other.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 08/12/2019 08:16 am
The idea was that unless it hit a large rock head-on, it would either deflect the rock and squeeze past, or the probe would deflect and continue.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: zubenelgenubi on 08/12/2019 06:19 pm
Also, you know this thing was supposed to go 5 meters down, right?  That's 2x deeper than the Apollo 17 probe went.
Seeking knowledge: The martian regolith is not nearly as tamped-down as the lunar regolith?

Also, this process was expected to take days or weeks?  The Apollo cores were meant as one task among many to be completed in one traverse.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ccdengr on 08/12/2019 09:27 pm
Also, this process was expected to take days or weeks?  The Apollo cores were meant as one task among many to be completed in one traverse.
The Apollo HFE used a conventional rotary drill.  Apollo 15's had some problems and Apollo 16's got broken as previously mentioned.  Only Apollo 17's was fairly nominal.  See https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a15/a15carrier.html as a place to start.  If anything, the Apollo system was designed for soil looser than what was actually encountered.

The Insight mole is a self-contained hammering system, probably because that was all that could be accommodated in the available volume.  There was extensive testing but it seems like that testing didn't cover the actual situation on Mars.  See, e.g., http://www.geomechanics.caltech.edu/publications/pdf/Marshall-2017a.pdf
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Yeknom-Ecaps on 08/16/2019 10:43 pm
A number of articles/photos give times in InSight local true solar time - can someone translate how that relates to California PDT? Is there a formula to use? Thanks.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 08/17/2019 08:56 pm
Mars and Earth days are different lengths, a Mars day being approximately 30 minutes longer than an Earth day.  So the relationship between Mars and Earth time at any site changes every day.

As a quick guide, go here:

https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/ (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/weather/)

Go down to the graphic 3-day weather report.  It has Mars sols labelled along the top and Earth dates along the bottom.  You can see that, right now, each Earth day starts at about 18:00 (6 pm, about sunset since InSight is near the equator), but looking across the 3 days, the start of the Earth day moves back from about 7 pm to 6:30 pm to 6 pm, Mars time.

If you go here:

http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/time/martian_time.html (http://www-mars.lmd.jussieu.fr/mars/time/martian_time.html)

You can enter any Earth date and UTC time and get the corresponding Mars date.  There are other Mars calendar-type sites out there but this is the one used by scientists.  But this doesn't help with Mars times.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ccdengr on 08/17/2019 11:44 pm
A number of articles/photos give times in InSight local true solar time - can someone translate how that relates to California PDT?
https://www.giss.nasa.gov/tools/mars24/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 08/20/2019 01:54 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1162419651139133440
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 08/22/2019 12:41 am
Given the scoop it wouldn't be inconceivable just to shove dirt into the cavity.  It does look more filled in the recent pictures at least.  How soon before Solar Conjunction?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: MattBaker on 08/22/2019 05:55 am
For Curiosity it seems to be tomorrow, August 23rd. (https://mars.nasa.gov/msl/mission/mars-rover-curiosity-mission-updates/?mu=sol-2499-2501-more-sample-analysis) I'd assume it's the same for InSight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 08/30/2019 09:59 pm
New article on Space News, the mole is still stuck after the first try to get it moving again.

https://spacenews.com/insight-mission-seeking-new-ways-to-fix-heat-flow-probe/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 09/05/2019 10:28 am
Images of the 'mole' from the latest DLR blog post (https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/). They are considering pressing directly using the shovel.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 09/20/2019 12:47 pm
Quote
AT MIDNIGHT ON Mars, the red planet’s magnetic field sometimes starts to pulsate in ways that have never before been observed. The cause is currently unknown.

That’s just one of the stunning preliminary findings from NASA’s very first robotic geophysicist there, the InSight lander. Since touching down in November 2018, this spacecraft has been gathering intel to help scientists better understand our neighboring planet’s innards and evolution, such as taking the temperature of its upper crust, recording the sounds of alien quakes, and measuring the strength and direction of the planet’s magnetic field.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2019/09/mars-insight-feels-mysterious-magnetic-pulsations-at-midnight/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Star One on 10/02/2019 07:04 am
Perhaps they should put an album out of all these noises at the end of the mission.

Quote
Put an ear to the ground on Mars and you'll be rewarded with a symphony of sounds. Granted, you'll need superhuman hearing, but NASA's InSight lander comes equipped with a very special "ear."

The spacecraft's exquisitely sensitive seismometer, called the Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure (SEIS), can pick up vibrations as subtle as a breeze. The instrument was provided by the French space agency, Centre National d'Études Spatiales (CNES), and its partners.

SEIS was designed to listen for marsquakes. Scientists want to study how the seismic waves of these quakes move through the planet's interior, revealing the deep inner structure of Mars for the first time.

But after the seismometer was set down by InSight's robotic arm, Mars seemed shy. It didn't produce its first rumbling until this past April, and this first quake turned out to be an odd duck. It had a surprisingly high-frequency seismic signal compared to what the science team has heard since then. Out of more than 100 events detected to date, about 21 are strongly considered to be quakes. The remainder could be quakes as well, but the science team hasn't ruled out other causes.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/jpl/nasas-insight-hears-peculiar-sounds-on-mars
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 10/03/2019 01:46 pm
Looks like the most recent images from InSight's arm show its scoop touching the mole on its side.

https://twitter.com/landru79/status/1179754095219019776
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jacqmans on 10/04/2019 08:03 am
DLR German Aerospace Center, Corporate Communications,
Linder Hoehe, 51147 Koeln, Germany

DLR Press Release, 3 October 2019

InSight mission – a fresh attempt for the first ‘Mole’ on Mars


Only five centimetres of the Mars ‘Mole’ are still protruding above the planet’s surface, and it is thought that it could have initially driven itself as much as 35 centimetres into the subsurface. A small crater has formed around the shaft, with the
result that the small penetrometer is experiencing insufficient friction against its exterior to be able to move deeper. Initial attempts to fill this ‘Mole hole’ using the arm of the InSight lander and its shovel have failed due to the strength of
the surface crust. Researchers from the German Aerospace Center (Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt; DLR) and NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) are now making a new attempt. They are planning to press the Mole sideways against the crater
wall using the shovel of the robotic arm in order to give it enough traction and friction to burrow deeper into the surface.

“At a depth of 35 centimetres, the Mole left the guide springs in its casing and then began to precess due to the lack of soil friction, without advancing any further,” explains Tilman Spohn from the DLR Institute of Planetary Research, and Principal
Investigator of the Heat Flow and Physical Properties Package (HP3) experiment. “We want to use lateral pressure provided by the robotic arm’s scoop to create the friction that has been lacking.” The Mole works like a self-hammering nail, so its recoil
has to be absorbed using friction.

In June 2019, the researchers first removed the support structure for the HP3 experiment, exposing the Mars Mole to view. “It appears that a solid crust composed of approximately 10 centimetres of cohesive sand is overlying very loose sand,” says Spohn,
who explains this in his mission logbook. In July and August 2019 attempts were made to ‘close’ the hole around the Mars mole using first the flat blade and then the tip of the scoop on the robotic arm. However, the crust turned out to be too hard.

The new strategy, described as ‘pinning’ by the team, will be executed on Mars over the coming weeks. The Mole will resume its hammering, aided by the lateral pressure of the arm. However, this technique cannot be fully tested out on Earth in advance.
JPL in California has set up a working mock-up of the InSight lander in a test field and installed a replica of DLR’s HP3 experiment. While this allows the movements of the robotic arm to be practised, the scientists cannot fully replicate the soil
without further information about its formation and composition. “All we know about the soil is what we can see in the images InSight sends us,” says Spohn.

The team of researchers is already considering alternative steps that may have to be taken in future. Another option is to use the scoop to scrape surface material into the hole, rather than trying to compress it. The robotic arm presents a challenge
no matter what solution is selected. It was designed to be as light and low in energy consumption as possible, and was only intended to lift the InSight experiments onto the Martian surface. It moves carefully and halts any movement that exceeds certain
parameters. This can occur for many reasons, from a joint motor overvoltage to insufficient heating. Unlike the robotic arm on NASA’s Curiosity rover, it does not have any force sensors, so it cannot detect how much force it is exerting and cannot
perform a pressing motion continuously. “We are asking the arm to punch above its weight,” said Ashitey Trebi-Ollennu, the lead arm engineer at JPL. “It cannot press on the Mole the way a person can. This would be easier if it could, but that is just
not the arm we have.”

Contacts:
Falk Dambowsky
German Aerospace Center (DLR)
Media Relations
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 10/14/2019 04:24 pm
Quote
Good news from #Mars! Confirmed!

 After 3 cm progress, it appears the @DLR_de
 ‘Mole’ on @NASAInSight
 was not stopped in its tracks by a rock under the Martian surface but had in fact lost friction.
https://twitter.com/DLR_en/status/1183734797165875200
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 10/20/2019 07:24 pm
Looks like the crisis has been averted! Smoothly now, HP3 is almost entirely underground.

https://twitter.com/AstroMelina/status/1185809279850291202
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 10/24/2019 02:00 pm
The scoop is no longer directly pressing on the mole's side, but instead now it's pressing --with all its might, judging from the cracks-- on the ground next to it. HP3 appears to progress in its penetration more slowly (or maybe just fewer percussions were carried out), but progresses nevertheless!

https://twitter.com/landru79/status/1187138094585274370
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: b0objunior on 10/27/2019 03:44 am
Oh god!

https://twitter.com/InSightImageBot/status/1188256958744289280
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Eerie on 10/27/2019 05:03 am
So, apparently InSight langed on an underground Martian monster...  who doesn't appreciate being heat-probed...
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: harrystranger on 10/27/2019 06:45 am
A quick gif from InSight on the moles movement  :(
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 10/27/2019 07:13 am
How...does it drill...BACKWARDS?!? 😕
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: matthewkantar on 10/27/2019 07:18 am
(!!!!!)

Well apparently we are go to start over in a new place.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Svetoslav on 10/27/2019 07:26 am
Apparently, it can't. They said that once the drill is out, it can't retract and start anew...

 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: b0objunior on 10/27/2019 07:27 am
Well, I think the mole is done for it.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 10/27/2019 12:15 pm
 :o


Here's hoping they can at least work out a plan to somewhat quickly pin it down with the arm and try to reintroduce it in the hole (hopefully it hasn't completely collapsed with the vibrations) to try and place it in a less precarious situation. Maybe even push it from the left to righten it up?


That's curious to say the least. Almost appears as if the hammering mechanism was working backwards! What changed so spectacularly from the last apparently successful operations?!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vapour_nudge on 10/27/2019 11:08 pm
They increased the number of hammerings.  Perhaps the path of least resistance was sideways with the very soft sand??  I wonder if the tether line also came into play??
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Journeyman on 10/27/2019 11:38 pm
I can't believe what I'm seeing! I thought they said the mole is designed only to hammer itself down into the ground. What mechanism suddenly makes it move upwards on each hammering?

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Nomadd on 10/28/2019 02:42 am
 Or, somebody just screwed up with the photo.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: penguin44 on 10/28/2019 04:00 am
After seeing in small details that some little bits of dirt are moving t2 like back into the shovel that was off the ground, I think the gif is backwards.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: jebbo on 10/28/2019 06:18 am
No, it's real ... hopefully they'll be able to recover. But this really isn't good news

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1188523020718985216

--- Tony
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/28/2019 01:42 pm
How...does it drill...BACKWARDS?!?

It's not a drill. I've read the white paper on its design, it's got an internal hammer that is loaded and then released, with a spring that redirects the upwards recoil into a second downward hammer blow. It's a very clever design.

This is just WEIRD. I suspect they're going to have a hell of a time getting the engineering model here on Earth to replicate what happened.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Donosauro on 10/28/2019 02:15 pm
After seeing in small details that some little bits of dirt are moving t2 like back into the shovel that was off the ground, I think the gif is backwards.

But that seems to happen when the open end of the shovel moves forward.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/28/2019 03:18 pm
SpaceNews article:

https://spacenews.com/insight-heat-flow-probe-suffers-setback/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 10/28/2019 03:59 pm
New DLR blog post - apparently the mole came out of the hole with only a few tens of hammer strokes!!

Bold emphasis is mine.

Quote
Logbook entry 28 October 2019

More surprises on Mars! Unfortunately, we saw that the Mole had backed-out of the Martian soil instead of going deeper as we had expected. How could that happen? After all, this Mole does not have a reverse gear as the Mole that DLR built for the ill-fated European Beagle II lander had. (That probe was designed as a sampling device that would go down and then come up again with a sample.)

But we have seen the phenomenon of backing-up before: in the lab at small atmospheric pressure such as on Mars. Remember, the Martian atmospheric pressure is only 0.6 percent of the Earth’s! At Earth’s atmospheric pressure, if the Mole starts to rebound and if the rebound is not compensated by friction on the wall, the Mole rapidly opens a cavity below the tip of the Mole. The difference in pressure in the expanding cavity and in the atmosphere creates a suction effect that helps damping the rebound. The atmospheric pressure on Mars, however, is so small that the suction effect does not play a role and cannot really help the Mole. This is another reason why the friction on the Mole hull is so important! It is the major force to balance the recoil! In addition to the recoil you need some collapsing of the borehole at the tip in order to let the Mole move up.

When we analyzed the images from the previous hammering, we had an indication that the Mole´s forward motion had slowed down towards the end of that session. Therefore, we played it safe by commanding a smaller than originally planned number of hammer strokes and then a readjust of the pushing of the arm and scoop on the soil.

I, for one, would have never thought that the Mole could back out as much during a few tens of hammer strokes. Maybe, if we were out of luck, it would not penetrate or possibly come up a bit. Well, operating on Mars is not only time consuming. It is full of surprises! The interactions of low atmospheric pressure, low gravity, unknown regolith mechanical properties and Mole dynamics are a challenge.

What to do next? First, we want to be sure that the Mole will not tip over. Then, we want to inspect the hole it is sitting in, the view of which is blocked by the scoop. We may then do another pinning trying to bring the Mole back to where it was before the recent hammering. And start again to get it to dig below the surface. But give us some time to think!

Stay tuned, it is not at all over, but the Mole is not making our lives easier these days! It is good that we have such a great team from JPL and DLR working on the problem. And it is great that NASA and DLR continue to support us. After all, our goal is to eventually go much deeper!

https://www.dlr.de/blogs/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-5893/9577_read-1090/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: russianhalo117 on 10/28/2019 10:18 pm
How...does it drill...BACKWARDS?!? 😕
Read the corresponding post in the updates thread.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 10/28/2019 10:54 pm
https://youtu.be/UebGJK6WUTo
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 11/05/2019 01:50 pm
If the lack of a below-mole vacuum spring is indeed the root of the backout, then a potential mitigation (if the mole can be realigned and returned to the pre-backout pose using the now tested arm-press technique) would be to use the scoop to pile dirt on top of the partially submerged mole in order to provide additional downward force on the mole, at the expense of being unable to visually monitor progress unless the mole backs out again. As the presence of the fragile tether prevents the scoop being used to dig the mole back out, it would be a rather last-ditch option.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 11/06/2019 05:40 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1192138036592750603

Quote
NASA’s Michael New, discussing the status of InSight’s mole at a Space Studies Board meeting today: this isn’t a problem with the mole, it’s a giant gap in our understanding of the Martian regolith.

https://twitter.com/nasainsight/status/1192142719822356481

Quote
I’ve moved my arm away from the mole to snap pictures of the pit. Lighting at different angles can help show us the material we’re up against within the Martian subsurface. @NASA and @DLR_en teams are analyzing results.🔎
FAQ: go.nasa.gov/HP3FAQ
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 11/09/2019 08:23 pm
After conducting a survey of the site, the robotic arm on @NASAInSight has been placed against the mole once again.

Still awaiting official confirmation of the next steps forward, but they will likely include another round of "pinning."

https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1193250767773274113
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Eosterwine on 11/12/2019 07:43 pm
How would you rate the InSight mission so far?  We haven't heard much from the seismometer and the mole is stuck.  Compared to previous lander missions,  Is it a scientific success, or not?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: TripleSeven on 11/12/2019 07:54 pm
How would you rate the InSight mission so far?  We haven't heard much from the seismometer and the mole is stuck.  Compared to previous lander missions,  Is it a scientific success, or not?

they are still working on it :) but so far...not so much
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 11/12/2019 11:57 pm
How would you rate the InSight mission so far?  We haven't heard much from the seismometer and the mole is stuck.  Compared to previous lander missions,  Is it a scientific success, or not?

It could be a scientific success but as of May 15 there have not been enough large Marsquakes that are needed to gain an understanding of Mars interiors. So with that said, maybe its still too soon to tell.

https://spacenews.com/troubleshooting-of-mars-insight-instrument-continues/
Quote
The instrument has detected six seismic events to date, he said, including one “just the other day.” One of them is a likely Marsquake, but a weak one: an estimated magnitude of 2.5 about 150 kilometers from the landing site.

A notable aspect of that quake, he said, is that the train of waves lasted 12 minutes, far longer than any terrestrial earthquake but similar to quakes detected by seismometers on the moon placed there by the Apollo missions. That can be explained if the Martian crust is very shattered, scattering waves and elongating the wave train, he explained. It also suggests that the crust is very dry, since water would “heal” shattered minerals.

Fogel said that despite the limited number of quakes, they still hope to detect stronger events, with magnitudes greater than four. “It’s what we need in order for us to help determine exactly how Mars is stratified: core, mantle and crust,” he said.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: meberbs on 11/13/2019 06:28 am
How would you rate the InSight mission so far?  We haven't heard much from the seismometer and the mole is stuck.  Compared to previous lander missions,  Is it a scientific success, or not?
The mole has been teaching about Martian soil properties, and marsquakes have been detected, a lack of any strong quakes over a period of time could itself provide new information, since one question this mission was intended to answer is exactly how seismically active Mars is to begin with.

Science is the process of learning more about the universe, and this mission is certainly accomplishing that. Some of the information learned so far isn't the information that was expected, but if we were certain what to expect, there would be no need for a science mission. There is still a chance the mole accomplishes its original goal, but it has already provided lessons about Mars.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 11/21/2019 07:52 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1197594417667772416
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 12/14/2019 04:18 am
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03796-7
Quote
The marsquakes are coming fast and furious. From its landing site near the Martian equator, NASA’s InSight mission is detecting about two quakes per day — and the rate is going up.

“We have a lot,” said Bruce Banerdt, a geophysicist at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California, and InSight’s principal investigator. He reported the findings on 12 December at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union in San Francisco, California.

Since arriving on Mars just over a year ago, InSight has detected 322 marsquakes. They are the first quakes ever detected on Mars, and the first on any body other than Earth or the Moon. Scientists aim to use them to probe the Martian interior, including deciphering the planet’s guts into layers of crust, mantle, and core.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: shiro on 12/14/2019 04:45 am
Since arriving on Mars just over a year ago, InSight has detected 322 marsquakes. They are the first quakes ever detected on Mars, and the first on any body other than Earth or the Moon.

That's a good news! There wasn't too much info about the seismic data before, so I feared they didn't track (almost) anything. Mars continues to surprise :D 4-magnitude marsquake should be very impressing.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: russianhalo117 on 01/20/2020 06:55 pm
If I was involved I would have recommended designing a device on the arm with 2 half cylinders that secure around the mole to guide straight down and have driveable tabs on the inside that move down with the mole that prevent bounce back. A repeat mission that is what I would suggest as a lesson learned.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 01/20/2020 07:17 pm
If I was involved I would have recommended designing a device on the arm with 2 half cylinders that secure around the mole to guide straight down and have driveable tabs on the inside that move down with the mole that prevent bounce back. A repeat mission that is what I would suggest as a lesson learned.

The housing for the instrument did guide it straight down, but pop-out latches that prevent bounce-back are a good idea. Elevators and roller coasters have similar latches.

If you really want to contact them, the Project Manager of the Heat Flow Probe is Judit Jaenchen of the DLR. Her email address is [email protected]

The Lead Investigator of the Heat Flow Probe is Tilman Spohn of the DLR. His email address is [email protected]
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 01/20/2020 07:36 pm
A device on the arm?  That doesn't fit with the use of a support structure over the mole as was flown.  A different support structure design incorporating your idea makes sense, though only in hindsight.  It wasn't at all obvious at the time it was being designed.  Maybe on Insight 2!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 01/21/2020 04:09 am
Newest view on the mole and arm.  Doesn't' look too different from last few days, but at least not as bad as that initial bounce-out.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 01/21/2020 04:19 pm
Mars is hard.

https://twitter.com/nextspaceflight/status/1219665266419826689
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 02/04/2020 02:50 pm
3D!
https://twitter.com/doug_ellison/status/1224125443659399169
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 02/10/2020 02:45 pm
Scoop getting close to the mole again, maybe to press on it directly?

https://twitter.com/landru79/status/1226885834483339270
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 02/21/2020 03:15 pm
https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1230883216145313793
Quote
My robotic mole has had a hard time getting underground, so I’m going to try something we never thought we’d do: giving it a push with my robotic arm while it hammers. This will take several weeks, as the @NASAJPL
/@DLR_en
 team works to #SaveTheMole.

More: http://go.nasa.gov/2HI93SH
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 02/21/2020 03:27 pm
Quote
My robotic mole has had a hard time getting underground, so I’m going to try something we never thought we’d do: giving it a push with my robotic arm while it hammers. This will take several weeks, as the @NASAJPL
/@DLR_en team works to #SaveTheMole.

More: http://go.nasa.gov/2HI93SH

Finally, although I do wonder why they don't take a bit more time, given the many setbacks so far, to bury it under an earth mound the scoop can build on it and *then* press on it with the scoop to force it down. It would even out the loads on the arm and aid in preventing the mole from leaning further. They did mention it as a possibility soon after the first walkout, so (one hopes) there should be a good reason they're willing to risk the larger arm loads.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 02/24/2020 01:58 pm
Probably because they don't really have any way to dig it out again (without very high risk of severing the tether with the bucket). Once its in the pile, it's staying there whether or not direct-pressing in whatever spot is exposed works or not. Testing direct pressing while exposed at least makes it easier to observe the process and fine-tune pressure and angle (with pressure only able to be inferred by counting motor ticks, due to the lack of force sensing).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 02/24/2020 04:29 pm
https://twitter.com/aymeric_spiga/status/1231983844221489153

Quote
The @NASAInSight overview paper is open access for a limited amount of time

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-020-0544-y
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: falcon19 on 03/10/2020 02:50 pm
I see some movement of the mole under teh arm, looks like it is tipping.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 03/10/2020 07:40 pm
It looks like the mole hasn't moved much if at all, instead the arm is moving as it (I assume) slowly puts pressure on the mole, as per the plan.

Attached is a gif of the last 8 sols up to the most recent image (sol 457), skipping any images that don't match lighting conditions.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 03/12/2020 02:08 am
They have done a significant push on the mole with the arm.

Edit: cropped gif (edit2: twice), as the site is removing animation from gifs that are too large.

Edit 3: A value must have been tweaked, as the site is currently in a state where even 1.7MB animated gifs are getting optimized away to static pictures.

Trying an animated PNG instead.  This should work on any browser except Microsoft's (and as a bonus, it'll look better than any gif).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 03/13/2020 04:38 pm
A bit of good news from #Mars: our new approach of using the robotic arm to push the mole appears to be working! The teams @NASAJPL/@DLR_en are excited to see the images and plan to continue this approach over the next few weeks.

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1238497770228420608
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 03/14/2020 06:55 pm
Once the mole is below ground, will the shovel be much use afterward? 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 03/15/2020 08:28 am
They are considering using it to cover the mole hole in dirt so they can continue to push against the mole's rebound after it goes below the surface (by pushing on the dirt above the mole).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Vonbraun on 03/15/2020 10:47 am
I find it weird, that they have not shoveled some of the ground away (from a different spot) to see exactly what is underneath there, as if academic speculations could come to a better conclusions?  Some kind of shovel abstinence.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 03/15/2020 08:24 pm
Not weird.  The arm and shovel are essential for deployment, even now to apply pressure.  Digging in a surface with unknown properties including hard cemented material as well as loose stuff risks damaging the arm, so you don't do it until you don't need it any more and can take a chance.  For Phoenix they expected a loose layer over ice and could afford to dig from the start (needed to dig from the start). 
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 03/26/2020 01:16 pm
Arm pushing is still doing the trick:

https://twitter.com/landru79/status/1243167882156093441
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 04/10/2020 06:44 pm
Is it just me or is the mole looking more sideways in more recent images?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 04/10/2020 09:59 pm
It's just the lighting getting confusing.  Gif compare is a week ago vs now.  And it's matched all the way back to the last hammer.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 04/12/2020 09:08 pm
Another dig session today
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 05/04/2020 10:50 am
There was a dig session yesterday.  Sol 509.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Swedish chef on 05/06/2020 09:38 pm
https://spacenews.com/insight-mole-making-slow-progress-into-martian-surface/
Quote
We anticipate that we’ll have the mole down flush with the ground within another month or two months,” he said. By then, the arm will no longer be able to help push the mole further into the ground. “At that point, it’s either going to be able to go on its own or not.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/06/2020 11:54 pm
https://spacenews.com/insight-mole-making-slow-progress-into-martian-surface/
Quote
We anticipate that we’ll have the mole down flush with the ground within another month or two months,” he said. By then, the arm will no longer be able to help push the mole further into the ground. “At that point, it’s either going to be able to go on its own or not.

I fear it might be the later, but I do hope I'm wrong.

Do they have an estimate how deep the duracrust is?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 05/18/2020 02:15 am
Another dig today.  Last one was two weeks ago.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: theinternetftw on 05/31/2020 05:22 am
As a nice bonus to today's other cool news, there was a solid digging session today.

Getting pretty close to flush, at which point it's out of Insight's shovel-hands.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 03/15/2021 12:32 pm
Much as the Seismometer team would dislike objects being further rained on top of their instrument casing, it would be interesting to drop dirt on the apex to observe the minimum angle at which the 'cleaning effect' works. If it is reasonably shallow, then a plausible mechanism for dust-cleaning on future solar-powered craft could be to slightly angle the panels and have the vehicle give itself a 'dirt bath'.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hoku on 05/04/2021 12:03 pm
While other surface missions have been busy with flying and drilling, Insight has continued to scoop up Martian "dirt" and to bury the seismometer's cable. The attached movie combines raw images of the Instrument Context Camera spanning 67 Sols (Feb 23 through May 2, 2021).

edit: added QuickTime compatible .mp4 version
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/04/2021 12:10 pm
There were a lot of reports that InSight was near-death. Has it recovered?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hoku on 05/04/2021 12:22 pm
There were a lot of reports that InSight was near-death. Has it recovered?
Available solar power levels will continue to decrease through late July (citing the mid April positing on Insight's twitter account). Winter is also the windy season, which tends to remove dust from the solar panels, thus apparently there is still sufficient power to operate the heaters, cameras, scoop, etc.

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1382826312956473344 (https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1382826312956473344)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/04/2021 12:43 pm
I don't seem to be able to find it anymore -not sure if deleted or just buried under the parroting-, but I remember reading a tweet from a mission manager a few days ago wondering who had spawned the rumor and stating the situation didn't require hibernation even if it's (obviously) a contingency mode they have up their sleeves should the need arise.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: hoku on 05/04/2021 12:59 pm
I don't seem to be able to find it anymore -not sure if deleted or just buried under the parroting-, but I remember reading a tweet from a mission manager a few days ago wondering who had spawned the rumor and stating the situation didn't require hibernation even if it's (obviously) a contingency mode they have up their sleeves should the need arise.
The raw images up to May 2 suggest a healthy Insight lander:
https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/ (https://mars.nasa.gov/insight/multimedia/raw-images/)  8)

There might again/still be some issues with sensors of the weather station. They carried out a reset of the Auxiliary Payload Sensor Suite last September.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/11/2021 07:41 am

Scooping+dumping :)


http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=8432&pid=252145&st=1125&#entry252145
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/24/2021 02:12 pm
Insight dropping dirt on its deck... for further noise reduction efforts? Does SEIS' tether start there?
https://twitter.com/landru79/status/1396805330420572164
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: ugordan on 05/24/2021 02:40 pm
Insight dropping dirt on its deck...

Some of that (darker) dust ended up on the solar panel, too.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: steaphankay on 05/31/2021 09:26 pm
I see that InSight is plagued by the common solar panel dust problem. As dust seems to be the demise of most rovers, why doesn't NASA include a robotic arm that is dedicated to dusting-away the Martian soil form their panels? The duster could be deployed during times of high charge, with the rovers reserving power during dust storms and leaving enough charge to clean themselves after. Adding additional robotics is costly, but self preservation of the rovers should be the highest priority. I am being tongue-and-cheek about the feather duster, but maybe it's an arm with a fan on it the blows debris away. I am sure there is a mission-specific reason for why panel cleaning thus far has been left to the Martian winds (e.g. a cheapest solution, albeit a gamble).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Steve G on 05/31/2021 09:50 pm
There's been a lot of debate on the dust issue and the weight and complexity of the cleaning mechanisms. But you are right, they can't just hope for wind cleaning events and come up with a simple design that can work like clock hands spinning in the middle with a small duster. There's also talk of exotic coverings and materials, but perhaps just a small attachment for the arm to hook up to would have saved a lot of grief without adding too much weight.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 05/31/2021 10:26 pm
steaphankay:  "(e.g. a cheapest solution, albeit a gamble)."

The lesson from Spirit and opportunity was that it wasn't really such a gamble as they both had repeated cleaning events.  It was pretty reasonable to rely on it.  Just too bad it hasn't happened yet.  There are dust devil tracks close by, some passing through Homestead Hollow, seen on HiRISE images and in the ICC images from InSight itself - but not strong enough or close enough to have the desired effect.  Maybe we will get lucky one day.  But it wasn't unreasonable to rely on wind and avoid the cost, mass and complexity of an arm trying to do the job.

Also as has been mentioned before, wiping the solar panel risks rubbing that abrasive dust into the surface and that is almost certainly not a good thing.  So no wipers or dusters, please!  Something to tilt or shake the panel enough to dislodge dust might be preferable.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: cosmicvoid on 06/01/2021 06:27 am
... wiping the solar panel risks rubbing that abrasive dust into the surface and that is almost certainly not a good thing.  So no wipers or dusters, please!...
I think if wipers/dusters are added, then the solar panels would also be fitted with a protective surface that will withstand cleaning. More mass? Yes, trading some mass for operational longevity.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Kaputnik on 06/01/2021 10:43 am
The tradeoffs were discussed when designing the MER mission, and it was found that just adding more solar cells was always the best use of mass.

In my completely uninformed view I wonder if the best bang-for-buck would be to make the solar array deployment mechanism reversible. This is assuming that it uses motors rather than springs. So for the cost of a bit of extra wiring and software, you can tilt the panels to let dust slide off, as well as angling them for optimal lighting through the seasons, and perhaps in extreme circumstances stow them during the worst of the dust storms if no power can be produced anyway.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 06/01/2021 01:53 pm
More moving parts = more parts to fail (especially when your intended use case is to move them specifically when they're covered in abrasive grit). Every active dust-removal mechanism has to contend with "what if we removed all that mass, and added more solar panel area instead?". Thus far, 'more panel' has come out ahead every time, with the added benefits of not needing any additional moving parts, and providing some bonus baseline power during the initial phases of a mission. And as panel efficiency marches on year-on-year, that makes it even harder for a panel-clearing design to win out that trade.
When you start having enormous solar array fields where a single cleaner can clear many tens of square meters of panel area, then it may be a better option. But for any single-lander/rover mission, I don't think its ever going to work out other than if it were funded very specifically as a capability demonstrator.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 06/04/2021 03:43 pm
Insight dropping dirt on its deck...

Some of that (darker) dust ended up on the solar panel, too.

Turns out the darker tone was actually (and unintuitively!) more solar panel getting exposed through dust getting blown off by saltating sand carried by the wind. Seems the complex interplay between wind, stickiness, static electricity and granular dynamics is well understood... and profitable!

https://mobile.twitter.com/MarkPanning/status/1400487287494832128
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 06/04/2021 06:24 pm
It will be interesting to see how Zhurong fares with dust.  Its solar panels are apparently coated with something to make dust less likely to cling to the surface and two of the four deployable panels can be tilted to shed dust.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 06/05/2021 07:24 pm
Much as the Seismometer team would dislike objects being further rained on top of their instrument casing, it would be interesting to drop dirt on the apex to observe the minimum angle at which the 'cleaning effect' works. If it is reasonably shallow, then a plausible mechanism for dust-cleaning on future solar-powered craft could be to slightly angle the panels and have the vehicle give itself a 'dirt bath'.
It worked, with no angling needed!
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 06/22/2021 08:54 am
Finally, some hard clear data on the power management situation: the mission went from having a power production excess over consumption of >1500 Whr two year ago to have it almost barely meet demand since last year, even slightly surpassing it some sols this year - in spite of decreasing power usage drastically (-800 Whr, to about 1000 Whr) about a year ago. Unfortunately, in spite of the efforts with the saltation technique, projections have energy usage remain flat for the next year or so (800-500 Whr). The real crunch comes afterwards, a year from now, where estimates bring power generation to survival-only levels (300-400 Whr, coincidentally around the same time the 2-year primary mission would be considered complete  :P ).
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1407080333007331330/photo/1
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 06/22/2021 12:33 pm
... wiping the solar panel risks rubbing that abrasive dust into the surface and that is almost certainly not a good thing.  So no wipers or dusters, please!...
I think if wipers/dusters are added, then the solar panels would also be fitted with a protective surface that will withstand cleaning. More mass? Yes, trading some mass for operational longevity

Just NO!!!!!!!!

Why do people insist this?

Solar array cleaning is not worth extra mass if the spacecraft already meets its planned lifetime.  You don't take away capabilities to extend the lifetime past the minimum.

Insight has already met the minimum (1 Martian year), it is already in bonus time without any dedicated solar array cleaning mechanism.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 06/22/2021 12:50 pm

Why do people insist this?

Solar array cleaning is not worth extra mass if the spacecraft already meets its planned lifetime.  You don't takeaway capabilities to extend the lifetime past the minimum.

I don't think that most people understand that spacecraft are designed to a specific lifetime with some margin. They are also budgeted for a specific lifetime (on Mars it is usually measured by Mars years).

Often, designing to a longer lifetime can be considerably expensive. I once sat in a briefing where somebody explained the lifetime of a spacecraft (I wish I could remember which one) that had exceeded its planned lifetime by a considerable amount. The interesting thing was that if they had tried to test and certify that spacecraft to a longer lifetime, even simply doubling the lifetime would have resulted in a huge cost increase because the number, type, and duration of the tests would have gone up a lot. It's a complicated calculation.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 06/23/2021 03:59 am
The real crunch comes afterwards, a year from now, where estimates bring power generation to survival-only levels (300-400 Whr, coincidentally around the same time the 2-year primary mission would be considered complete

I thought the primary mission was 1 Mars year (687 Earth days), very approximately two Earth years.  Insight is therefore already well past its nominal use by date.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 06/23/2021 06:56 am
Yes... I think that a year from now is the end of the current extended mission phase.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 06/23/2021 09:10 am
You're right, I didn't check the claim and indeed it's not the end of the primary mission, but the currently approved extended mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spacexplorer on 06/23/2021 04:31 pm

Just NO!!!!!!!!

Why do people insist this?

Solar array cleaning is not worth extra mass if the spacecraft already meets its planned lifetime.  You don't take away capabilities to extend the lifetime past the minimum.

Insight has already met the minimum (1 Martian year), it is already in bonus time without any dedicated solar array cleaning mechanism.
People insist because they look at the problem from another angle:
you think "generated energy is enough for planned lifetime"
they think "they plan such a short lifetime just because they don't use wipers"
I think: "they intentionally do not use wipers not to save mass, but just to let the mission end in a short lifetime, to leave space for further, better missions"

Having a rover roving for 15 years may look cool and successful... but as a matter of fact its technology was obsolete after 5 years. Probably if Spirit, Opportunity and Curiosity had lasted just 3 or 4 years, now planets exploration technology (and results) would be very above current levels.

Missions shall end soon.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 06/23/2021 06:38 pm
People insist because they look at the problem from another angle:
you think "generated energy is enough for planned lifetime"
they think "they plan such a short lifetime just because they don't use wipers"
I think: "they intentionally do not use wipers not to save mass, but just to let the mission end in a short lifetime, to leave space for further, better missions"

Having a rover roving for 15 years may look cool and successful... but as a matter of fact its technology was obsolete after 5 years. Probably if Spirit, Opportunity and Curiosity had lasted just 3 or 4 years, now planets exploration technology (and results) would be very above current levels.

Missions shall end soon.





Yeah... no. This is wrong. It's not the way things work.

I'm currently involved in the process by which new priorities are set for future planetary exploration. With very few exceptions, if a spacecraft is still producing data you want to keep it operating as long as you can. It doesn't prevent you from doing new science or advancing the field. In fact, lots of important discoveries have been made by missions in their extended mission phase. If Spirit was still operating, the Mars community would still find things to do with it. And the cost of keeping missions operating is not that high. The cost of keeping missions working in their extended mission phase is around 13%-17% of the overall space science budget (it varies per discipline: astrophysics, heliophysics, planetary science, etc.), and that money is set aside ahead of time and is not taken from new missions in development.

[Clarification: when I wrote 13%-17%, I meant that in comparison to a NASA space science division's budget. So it could be 13% of the Planetary Science Division budget goes to extended phase missions, and 17% of the Astrophysics Science Division budget goes to extended phase missions. See the attached report for more details.]


If you want to know more about how NASA extends its missions and why it is a good idea to do so, see the attached report. I was the study director for that study, and I'm rather proud of it. We had a significant impact on this subject, getting NASA to change the extended mission phase (and senior reviews) from two years to three, which has led to a more efficient process overall, saving money and time and effort in the science community.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: John Santos on 06/23/2021 07:09 pm
It think the answer to @spacexplorer's implied question, "how many more new, more current technology missions could have been launched if the existing missions had been allowed to die at the end of their planned lifetime, and no heroic measures were taken to keep them alive?" is ZERO.

The tech on Spirit and Opportunity was totally obsolete by the time Curiosity was launched, and Perseverence is greatly improved on Curiosity, but Percy would not have been launched any earlier if Curiosity had died years ago.  It probably would have been delayed, as NASA looked into and reported on whatever problem had killed it before giving Percy the go-ahead and then made whatever design changes it deemed necessary.

Also, just because the tech is no longer cutting edge does NOT mean it can't and won't produce worthwhile results.  Spacecraft tech is ALWAYS behind because it takes so long to design, build, test, and launch them, not to mention interplanetary travel time ranging from the best part of a year (Mars and Venus) to a decade or more (all the other planets.)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spacexplorer on 07/05/2021 10:34 am
Spacecraft tech is ALWAYS behind because it takes so long to design, build, test, and launch them, not to mention interplanetary travel time ranging from the best part of a year (Mars and Venus) to a decade or more (all the other planets.)
Once upon the time, it was the opposite.
I can't remember when things changed from "space = cutting edge technology" to "smartphone = cutting edge technology". Maybe between Sojourner and Spirit?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 07/05/2021 11:30 am

Once upon the time, it was the opposite.
I can't remember when things changed from "space = cutting edge technology" to "smartphone = cutting edge technology". Maybe between Sojourner and Spirit?

"Cutting edge technology" is not the best way to look at this subject. The chips that are used in spacecraft are designed for very high reliability in very demanding environments. That is not what cellphone chips are designed for. Cellphone chips are also not designed for long lifetimes, because the expectation is that they will be replaced within a few years. It's a very different set of requirements and design parameters.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 07/06/2021 11:46 am
Spacecraft tech is ALWAYS behind because it takes so long to design, build, test, and launch them, not to mention interplanetary travel time ranging from the best part of a year (Mars and Venus) to a decade or more (all the other planets.)
Once upon the time, it was the opposite.
I can't remember when things changed from "space = cutting edge technology" to "smartphone = cutting edge technology". Maybe between Sojourner and Spirit?

no, unmanned spacecraft computers always lagged behind current state of the art.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 07/06/2021 12:55 pm
I can't remember when things changed from "space = cutting edge technology" to "smartphone = cutting edge technology".
For any particular technology, it happens when a space-developed technology has a commercial application of sufficient scale that it becomes the dominant application. e.g. the AGC pioneered the use of ICs for compact computers, but once that technology was developed it was commercialised, and once it was commercialised the drivers for further development shifted from aerospace needs to commercial needs. Technologies that do not have commercial applications - or whose commercial applications remain tiny compared to their use in space - remain 'cutting edge' as aerospace remains the reason for driving their development. Rocket engine turbopumps, for example, do not have commercial applications so remain cutting-edge in aerospace. High-resolution high-sensitivity spectrometer arrays do not have significant commercial applications (I'm sure there ay be a handful in the wild of some obscure industrial process), so remain cutting edge in aerospace. On the other hand, hyperspectral imagers were cutting-edge for aerospace, right up until someone figured they could monitor crops with them, then that commercial use became the driver for development, to the point that today you can pick up a COTS hyperspectral camera to slap on your drone.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spacexplorer on 07/06/2021 01:59 pm
no, unmanned spacecraft computers always lagged behind current state of the art.
When I looked at this picture first time, the cellphone in my pocket was "cutting edge technology" (a Nokia 9110), but it didn't even have a camera:
(https://mars.nasa.gov/MPF/ops/pan_segment2_th.gif)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Nokia-9110-2.jpg/200px-Nokia-9110-2.jpg)


Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Jim on 07/06/2021 02:19 pm

When I looked at this picture first time, the cellphone in my pocket was "cutting edge technology"


No, when you were looking at that picture the first time, you were using a PC that was more advanced than the spacecraft.  Your later phones likely surpassed that PC.

The comparison is not spacecraft vs cellphones but any spacecraft vs terrestrial electronics. 
Until Mariner 6&7, spacecraft didn't have computers.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 07/06/2021 03:28 pm

When I looked at this picture first time, the cellphone in my pocket was "cutting edge technology"


No, when you were looking at that picture the first time, you were using a PC that was more advanced than the spacecraft.  Your later phones likely surpassed that PC.

The comparison is not spacecraft vs cellphones but any spacecraft vs terrestrial electronics. 
Until Mariner 6&7, spacecraft didn't have computers.


A few years ago I was a study director for a study that looked at the ground-based infrastructure for radiation-testing space electronics. In other words, the big facilities that are used to zap electronics that are going into space to see how they handle the radiation there. (It's even more complicated than that, but let's leave it at this simple description.)

Anyway, in the course of doing our study we heard from a number of people who deal with this kind of stuff. Believe it or not, even electronics on the ground are subject to space radiation that can mess them up, it's just much less frequent because we've got an atmosphere to shield out stuff. This is something that big server farms have to deal with--a cosmic ray comes in and causes a reset to a piece of equipment.

We learned some interesting things from the people who test the chips. One interesting fact is that automobile electronics are robust. They are designed for heat, cold, humidity, vibration and longevity (the electronics should not die before the engine does). So some automobile electronics are being considered for space use because they are already robust (and they are cheaper than stuff specifically designed for space). What we also heard was that a lot of consumer appliance electronics are, well, not all that good. The stuff that runs your coffee maker or your dishwasher is probably rather low quality. One of the real surprises, however, was that cellphone electronics are not necessarily as sophisticated as you would think. The devil is in the details, but one of the things I remember hearing from a tester is that because the lifetime of a cellphone is rather short, designers cut corners. They don't design for long lifetimes or even high reliability. I'm sure that this varies a lot by manufacturer, but it was interesting to hear that cellphone tech isn't at the top of the pyramid.

We did have a table that showed the lag between terrestrial chips getting into spacecraft, and that lag time was increasing. We did our study around 2018, and I cannot remember the specifics, but the lag time had increased by several years over the previous decade. There are a number of reasons for this, including limited number of suppliers and other industrial resource issues.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 07/06/2021 04:49 pm
So some automobile electronics are being considered for space use
'Only' a demonstrator, but Ingenuity is currently flying with a pair of automotive processors, along with an FPGA and a smartphone SoC.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 07/06/2021 08:23 pm
So some automobile electronics are being considered for space use
'Only' a demonstrator, but Ingenuity is currently flying with a pair of automotive processors, along with an FPGA and a smartphone SoC.

One other thing I just remembered is that a tester told us that there's a relationship between other types of ruggedness and radiation ruggedness. In other words, if a piece of electronic hardware is designed to withstand heat, cold, humidity, vibration, etc., it also tends to be more resistant to radiation. Now if you want it to be very resistant to radiation, then you specifically have to design that in, but if you take electronics designed for military or even automobile use, you're getting a certain amount of radiation resistance as a byproduct.

I dunno what causes that, but I suspect it is related to the things that go into adding all that other stuff. For instance, the connections are not as small (the smaller the parts get, the more susceptible they are to getting hit by a cosmic ray), plus there's probably extra shielding. It's also probably related to the amount of testing that is required to certify the electronics to those higher standards. A lot more stuff gets tested and the junkier stuff gets thrown out.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spacexplorer on 07/07/2021 07:23 am

When I looked at this picture first time, the cellphone in my pocket was "cutting edge technology"


No, when you were looking at that picture the first time, you were using a PC that was more advanced than the spacecraft.  Your later phones likely surpassed that PC.

The comparison is not spacecraft vs cellphones but any spacecraft vs terrestrial electronics. 
Until Mariner 6&7, spacecraft didn't have computers.


A few years ago I was a study director for a study that looked at the ground-based infrastructure for radiation-testing space electronics. [...]
You are confusing gigabytes and gigahertz with reliability.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Silmfeanor on 07/07/2021 12:00 pm

When I looked at this picture first time, the cellphone in my pocket was "cutting edge technology"


No, when you were looking at that picture the first time, you were using a PC that was more advanced than the spacecraft.  Your later phones likely surpassed that PC.

The comparison is not spacecraft vs cellphones but any spacecraft vs terrestrial electronics. 
Until Mariner 6&7, spacecraft didn't have computers.


A few years ago I was a study director for a study that looked at the ground-based infrastructure for radiation-testing space electronics. [...]
You are confusing gigabytes and gigahertz with reliability.
You mean Blackstar? I don't think he is? care to explain?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 07/07/2021 03:54 pm
So some automobile electronics are being considered for space use
'Only' a demonstrator, but Ingenuity is currently flying with a pair of automotive processors, along with an FPGA and a smartphone SoC.

One other thing I just remembered is that a tester told us that there's a relationship between other types of ruggedness and radiation ruggedness. In other words, if a piece of electronic hardware is designed to withstand heat, cold, humidity, vibration, etc., it also tends to be more resistant to radiation. Now if you want it to be very resistant to radiation, then you specifically have to design that in, but if you take electronics designed for military or even automobile use, you're getting a certain amount of radiation resistance as a byproduct.

I dunno what causes that, but I suspect it is related to the things that go into adding all that other stuff. For instance, the connections are not as small (the smaller the parts get, the more susceptible they are to getting hit by a cosmic ray), plus there's probably extra shielding. It's also probably related to the amount of testing that is required to certify the electronics to those higher standards. A lot more stuff gets tested and the junkier stuff gets thrown out.
It's also down to system architecture and low-level circuit design. High-reliability ICs need to be tolerant of errors (be they bit-flips from radiation or heat-induced tunnelling, or random voltage spikes or dropouts, or thermal or vibration induced intermittent connectivity dropouts, or etc) occurring inside the CPUI itself, not just in external memory, which means that they need to be able to detect errors fast, respond to them fast and automatically, and have that response be a safe response (a "halt everything and dump the core" response is fine for a consumer device where you can reinitialise at will, but not much good if you need that device to keep doing something). That means the design has to incorporate a lot more error checking and correction, a lot more redundancy (often multiple circuits or even whole cores performing the same task in redundant parallel), more robust internal power routing and delivery, etc, and do so right down at the low-level. There's also system-level design decisions too: for example, a consumer device can be specced to run at 90°C all day long, because the consequences of a thermal induced tunneling event every few months is at worst prompting a manual reboot, and you expect the chip to be so painfolly obsolete it is replaced within a decade or less anyway. You can choose to run at a lower power level (and resulting lower temperature) but that basically means the same hardware is providing a fraction of the performance at identical cost, and end up obsolete even more quickly. For an automotive (or space) application however, the workload is not going to appreciable change throughout its lifetime, so you can instead spec a device that will still provide sufficient performance, and last dramatically longer, even if the actual silicon is not appreciably different than a consumer device.

If your device is already tolerant of random internal bit-flips without having those cause an error, it already has some degree of radiation tolerance even if no consideration has been given to dedicated radiation hardening.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: FutureSpaceTourist on 09/23/2021 07:18 pm
https://mars.nasa.gov/news/9046/nasas-insight-finds-three-big-marsquakes-thanks-to-solar-panel-dusting/

Quote
NEWS | September 22, 2021
NASA's InSight Finds Three Big Marsquakes, Thanks to Solar-Panel Dusting

The lander cleared enough dust from one solar panel to keep its seismometer on through the summer, allowing scientists to study the three biggest quakes they’ve seen on Mars.

On Sept. 18, NASA’s InSight lander celebrated its 1,000th Martian day, or sol, by measuring one of the biggest, longest-lasting marsquakes the mission has ever detected. The temblor is estimated to be about a magnitude 4.2 and shook for nearly an hour-and-a-half.

This is the third major quake InSight has detected in a month: On Aug. 25, the mission’s seismometer detected two quakes of magnitudes 4.2 and 4.1. For comparison, a magnitude 4.2 quake has five times the energy of the mission’s previous record holder, a magnitude 3.7 quake detected in 2019.

The mission studies seismic waves to learn more about Mars’ interior. The waves change as they travel through a planet’s crust, mantle, and core, providing scientists a way to peer deep below the surface. What they learn can shed light on how all rocky worlds form, including Earth and its Moon.

The quakes might not have been detected at all had the mission not taken action earlier in the year, as Mars’ highly elliptical orbit took it farther from the Sun. Lower temperatures required the spacecraft to rely more on its heaters to keep warm; that, plus dust buildup on InSight’s solar panels, has reduced the lander’s power levels, requiring the mission to conserve energy by temporarily turning off certain instruments.

The team managed to keep the seismometer on by taking a counterintuitive approach: They used InSight’s robotic arm to trickle sand near one solar panel in the hopes that, as wind gusts carried it across the panel, the granules would sweep off some of the dust. The plan worked, and over several dust-clearing activities, the team saw power levels remain fairly steady. Now that Mars is approaching the Sun once again, power is starting to inch back up.

“If we hadn’t acted quickly earlier this year, we might have missed out on some great science,” said InSight’s principal investigator, Bruce Banerdt of NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Southern California, which leads the mission. “Even after more than two years, Mars seems to have given us something new with these two quakes, which have unique characteristics.”

Temblor Insights

While the Sept. 18 quake is still being studied, scientists already know more about the Aug. 25 quakes: The magnitude 4.2 event occurred about 5,280 miles (8,500 kilometers) from InSight – the most distant temblor the lander has detected so far.

Scientists are working to pinpoint the source and which direction the seismic waves traveled, but they know the shaking occurred too far to have originated where InSight has detected almost all of its previous large quakes: Cerberus Fossae, a region roughly 1,000 miles (1,609 kilometers) away where lava may have flowed within the last few million years. One especially intriguing possibility is Valles Marineris, the epically long canyon system that scars the Martian equator. The approximate center of that canyon system is 6,027 miles (9,700 kilometers) from InSight.

To the surprise of scientists, the Aug. 25 quakes were two different types, as well. The magnitude 4.2 quake was dominated by slow, low-frequency vibrations, while fast, high-frequency vibrations characterized the magnitude 4.1 quake. The magnitude 4.1 quake was also much closer to the lander – only about 575 miles (925 kilometers) away.

That’s good news for seismologists: Recording different quakes from a range of distances and with different kinds of seismic waves provides more information about a planet’s inner structure. This summer, the mission’s scientists used previous marsquake data to detail the depth and thickness of the planet’s crust and mantle, plus the size of its molten core.

Despite their differences, the two August quakes do have something in common other than being big: Both occurred during the day, the windiest – and, to a seismometer, noisiest – time on Mars. InSight’s seismometer usually finds marsquakes at night, when the planet cools off and winds are low. But the signals from these quakes were large enough to rise above any noise caused by wind.

Looking ahead, the mission’s team is considering whether to perform more dust cleanings after Mars solar conjunction, when Earth and Mars are on opposite sides of the Sun. Because the Sun’s radiation can affect radio signals, interfering with communications, the team will stop issuing commands to the lander on Sept. 29, though the seismometer will continue to listen for quakes throughout conjunction.

1st image caption:

Quote
Insight's Dusty Selfie: This selfie of NASA’s InSight lander is a mosaic made up of 14 images taken on March 15 and April 11 – the 106th and 133rd Martian days, or sols, of the mission – by the spacecraft Instrument Deployment Camera located on its robotic arm. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech.

2nd image caption:

Quote
InSight’s domed Wind and Thermal Shield covers the lander’s seismometer, called Seismic Experiment for Interior Structure, or SEIS. The image was taken on the 110th Martian day, or sol, of the mission.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: SciNews on 11/11/2021 07:55 am
Nature Astronomy - Seismic constraints from a Mars impact experiment using InSight and Perseverance
https://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41550-021-01502-0
Quote
On 18 February 2021, we attempted to detect the seismic and acoustic waves produced by the entry, descent and landing of the Perseverance rover using the sensors onboard the InSight lander.[...]Here we report that no signal from Perseverance’s entry, descent and landing is identifiable in the InSight data. Nonetheless, measurements made during the landing window enable us to place constraints on the distance–amplitude relationships used to predict the amplitude of seismic waves produced by planetary impacts and place in situ constraints on Martian impact seismic efficiency (the fraction of the impactor kinetic energy converted into seismic energy).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: SciNews on 11/23/2021 06:15 pm
Nature Communications - The shallow structure of Mars at the InSight landing site from inversion of ambient vibrations
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-021-26957-7
Quote
Abstract
Orbital and surface observations can shed light on the internal structure of Mars. NASA’s InSight mission allows mapping the shallow subsurface of Elysium Planitia using seismic data. In this work, we apply a classical seismological technique of inverting Rayleigh wave ellipticity curves extracted from ambient seismic vibrations to resolve, for the first time on Mars, the shallow subsurface to around 200 m depth. While our seismic velocity model is largely consistent with the expected layered subsurface consisting of a thin regolith layer above stacks of lava flows, we find a seismic low-velocity zone at about 30 to 75 m depth that we interpret as a sedimentary layer sandwiched somewhere within the underlying Hesperian and Amazonian aged basalt layers. A prominent amplitude peak observed in the seismic data at 2.4 Hz is interpreted as an Airy phase related to surface wave energy trapped in this local low-velocity channel.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 11/25/2021 02:47 pm
"Cleaning by dirtying" continues to work :)

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1463645190040604675
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 01/19/2022 04:43 pm
Insight out of the safe mode that was triggered a few days ago due to a dust storm. Still holding out to continue science until power levels can be budgeted reliably.

https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1483854173451866114
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: su27k on 02/05/2022 12:56 pm
https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1489326908697423881

Quote
Good news about InSight from Bruce Banerdt at the MEPAG meeting: the spacecraft is out of safe mode from a recent dust storm and should resume normal science ops this weekend.

Bad news: energy is still declining long term; will drop below level to operate instruments in May/June
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 02/15/2022 02:47 pm
Insight continues to persevere in covering its deck with dirt to clear the panels as much as possible during the remaining few months of projected power positive conditions:
https://twitter.com/landru79/status/1493610817006317580
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 04/01/2022 01:12 am
Not sure why Insight does not have it's own section or why it is rolled in with unrelated rover missions, but this paper on potential magma movements should be  of great interest to areophiles.

"Repetitive marsquakes in Martian upper mantle" Weijia Sun & Hrvoje Tkalčić 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-29329-x.pdf

NATURE COMMUNICATIONS (2022) 13:1695
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 04/26/2022 12:37 pm
There may have been a quake near Valles Marineris!

http://spaceref.com/mars/two-largest-marsquakes-to-date-recorded-from-planets-far-side.html (http://spaceref.com/mars/two-largest-marsquakes-to-date-recorded-from-planets-far-side.html)
Quote
The seismometer placed on Mars by NASA's InSight lander has recorded its two largest seismic events to date: a magnitude 4.2 and a magnitude 4.1 marsquake.

The pair are the first recorded events to occur on the planet's far side from the lander and are five times stronger than the previous largest event recorded.

Seismic wave data from the events could help researchers learn more about the interior layers of Mars, particularly its core-mantle boundary, researchers from InSight's Marsquake Service (MQS) report in The Seismic Record.

Anna Horleston of the University of Bristol and colleagues were able to identify reflected PP and SS waves from the magnitude 4.2 event, called S0976a, and locate its origin in the Valles Marineris, a massive canyon network that is one of Mars' most distinguishing geological features and one of the largest graben systems in the Solar System. Earlier orbital images of cross-cutting faults and landslides suggested the area would be seismically active, but the new event is the first confirmed seismic activity there.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/11/2022 10:10 am
Looks like this large marsquake may have been InSight's swansong: a teleconference is planned for the 17th, and it seems likely they will be calling it a mission, or soon anyway.

https://twitter.com/genejm29/status/1524138691966517250
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 05/11/2022 11:15 am
Are the team considering high-risk clearing operations (e.g. 'scoop tapping'), or is it not considered worth risking the few weeks/months of low power operations likely remaining - the arm would not have enough power to move if the power situation degrades too far, so would need to be performed sooner rather than later?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/11/2022 02:38 pm
How did this fare in the senior review? I haven't paid attention to that, but the senior review is intended to assess when a program's science return is no longer justified by its cost. InSight is well into its extended mission phase, and a senior review would try to assess how much more science is likely compared to what has already been attained.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/11/2022 02:43 pm
How did this fare in the senior review? I haven't paid attention to that, but the senior review is intended to assess when a program's science return is no longer justified by its cost. InSight is well into its extended mission phase, and a senior review would try to assess how much more science is likely compared to what has already been attained.
not just a science question.

It’s a unique capability being explored here, and this will serve the basis for concept of operations for far more ambitious helicopter missions, perhaps also informing ops for Dragonfly as well.

So it’s a capability development (and yes, public outreach) question as well.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/11/2022 02:44 pm
How did this fare in the senior review? I haven't paid attention to that, but the senior review is intended to assess when a program's science return is no longer justified by its cost. InSight is well into its extended mission phase, and a senior review would try to assess how much more science is likely compared to what has already been attained.
not just a science question.

It’s a unique capability being explored here, and this will serve the basis for concept of operations for far more ambitious helicopter missions, perhaps also informing ops for Dragonfly as well.

So it’s a capability development (and yes, public outreach) question as well.

I think you're confused. InSight does not fly.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/11/2022 02:46 pm
Lol oops..
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/11/2022 02:52 pm
Lol oops..

We've all been there.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 05/11/2022 03:13 pm
How did this fare in the senior review? I haven't paid attention to that, but the senior review is intended to assess when a program's science return is no longer justified by its cost. InSight is well into its extended mission phase, and a senior review would try to assess how much more science is likely compared to what has already been attained.
Looks like the final Senior Review report for 2022 isn't out yet (latest date for that is May-June 2022).
Scratch that, there are two Senior Review websites, and only one was updated (the one that isn't linked in previous documents).
2022 Senior Review attached.
Quote
The power condition of InSight is currently at a critical juncture for mission termination. Solar
array cleaning attempts have continued but have been essentially unsuccessful—possibly due
to very low wind states. Unless something changes the mission is expected to reach a critical
energy state (possibly safe mode entry) in June 2022, and degrade to inoperability, Dead Bus
Recovery (DBR) mode, in December 2022
. The team will manage instrument data gathering as
power allows, but there is no fully manageable “graceful degradation” capability. Once InSight
enters DBR the team has no control over recovery but needs to set up a monitoring process in
the unlikely event power levels return. At this point the team will disperse. Recovery largely
depends on minimum exposed temperatures and the resultant damage to avionics in the
Martian winter.
Evaluation of the InSight proposal was challenging considering its unusual situation of potential
mission failure before EM2 even begins. After much deliberation on relevance of reviewing
EM2 considering its situation, the Panel decided to review it as if there was not a pending
mission-ending event. Additionally, the Panel provided perceptive recommendations for the
remainder of EM1 in the Additional Comments section of their report.
While the Review Chairs agree with the Panel’s score of Excellent/Very Good for EM2 itself, the
score is misleading. The likelihood of InSight surviving EM1 appears minimal (~5% according to
the project). If the spacecraft can “resurrect” itself from DBR after depth of winter, about 6
months into the EM2 time frame, system operability would need to be determined at the time
to construct a feasible EM2.

[...]
InSight lander operations for the remainder of EM1, assuming no cleaning event
occurs: The panel spent significant time discussing the likely end of the InSight mission
during EM1. Overall, the panel recognizes the superb accomplishments of the InSight
power system and the mission team to maintain sufficient power throughout the entire
Prime Mission and much of the first Extended Mission. We recommend that the science
team work to promote the longevity of the SEIS instruments, in particular the VBB
instrument, for as long as possible while maintaining as close to a continuous data
stream as possible.
Assuming the lander does not experience a cleaning event and loses power as currently
anticipated, it will enter “Safe Mode” in Fall 2022. By the end of EM1 or the first few
months of the proposed EM2, the lander would likely enter the “Dead Bus Recovery”
(DBR) stage. During DBR, Command and Data Handling (C&DH) is powered off as is
the Power Delivery and Drive Unit (PDDU) and the Consolidated Power System - High
Efficiency (CPS-HE). All mission phase knowledge would be lost. However, the lander
would remain sufficiently operational to revive itself should a cleaning event clear the
solar panels and allow the batteries to recharge. Theoretically, DBR could last
indefinitely. However, the low temperatures of the electronics will likely result in the loss
of resurrection capability by approximately June 2023 (six months into EM2).
[...]
Lessons learned from InSight power issues during the Extended Mission(s):
Based on the experience of the Mars InSight team and recent research, solar-powered
NASA missions to the surface of Mars can no longer assume that dust accumulation on
solar panels will be mitigated by periodic, serendipitous winds that remove the dust.
Since future robotic and human missions to Mars will likely continue to use solar arrays
to power instruments, rovers, and more, the Panel recommends that the Mars Program
Office A) conduct a ‘lessons learned’ exercise and B) explore in depth the issues related
to this important technical challenge.
tl;dr InSight expected to enter a safe mode in short order, and become unrecoverable in around 1 years time if the panels are not cleaned by a lucky dust devil (if the panels are cleaned before then, the mission can resume). Review of the dust accumulation problem for future missions is encouraged.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/13/2022 03:56 pm
I gotta wonder how hard it’d be to make electronics that just don’t care if they get submerged in liquid nitrogen. Have to match CTEs and stuff, but it doesn’t seem like it should be impossible. Would avoid the need for a heater. (Batteries wouldn’t work at low temperatures, but that may be fine for some things).
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/13/2022 03:59 pm
What’s the effect of panel tilt on dust accumulation and removal? I would imagine that totally vertical panels would never be fully covered in dust (might be some dust adhesion, but surely that could be partially mitigated with coatings). Totally horizontal (like Insight) must be the worst-case option. Single axis tracking with ability to put the panels totally upside down might help…
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/13/2022 07:49 pm
I gotta wonder how hard it’d be to make electronics that just don’t care if they get submerged in liquid nitrogen. Have to match CTEs and stuff, but it doesn’t seem like it should be impossible. Would avoid the need for a heater. (Batteries wouldn’t work at low temperatures, but that may be fine for some things).

NASA has technology development programs named HOTTech and COLDTech.

https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/space/pesto/space-vehicle-technologies-current/high-operating-temperature-technology-hottech/

https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/space/pesto/space-vehicle-technologies-current/coldtech-space-vehicle-technologies/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: DanClemmensen on 05/13/2022 08:02 pm
I gotta wonder how hard it’d be to make electronics that just don’t care if they get submerged in liquid nitrogen. Have to match CTEs and stuff, but it doesn’t seem like it should be impossible. Would avoid the need for a heater. (Batteries wouldn’t work at low temperatures, but that may be fine for some things).
There is an active community of overclocking hobbyists that do this for fun, and it's been going on for at least 20 years.
     https://hwbot.org/benchmark/cpu_frequency/halloffame
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Welsh Dragon on 05/13/2022 09:32 pm
I gotta wonder how hard it’d be to make electronics that just don’t care if they get submerged in liquid nitrogen. Have to match CTEs and stuff, but it doesn’t seem like it should be impossible. Would avoid the need for a heater. (Batteries wouldn’t work at low temperatures, but that may be fine for some things).
There is an active community of overclocking hobbyists that do this for fun, and it's been going on for at least 20 years.
     https://hwbot.org/benchmark/cpu_frequency/halloffame
This is not my area of expertise, but aren't those basically run-it-till-it-breaks one-off runs? Hardly something to base a long-term mission on.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Zed_Noir on 05/13/2022 09:51 pm
What’s the effect of panel tilt on dust accumulation and removal? I would imagine that totally vertical panels would never be fully covered in dust (might be some dust adhesion, but surely that could be partially mitigated with coatings). Totally horizontal (like Insight) must be the worst-case option. Single axis tracking with ability to put the panels totally upside down might help…
Simpler just installed the rotor system from a micro UAV on the mounting hub for the solar array to blow away the dust with the down wash.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: whitelancer64 on 05/13/2022 10:28 pm
I gotta wonder how hard it’d be to make electronics that just don’t care if they get submerged in liquid nitrogen. Have to match CTEs and stuff, but it doesn’t seem like it should be impossible. Would avoid the need for a heater. (Batteries wouldn’t work at low temperatures, but that may be fine for some things).

The temperature isn't the problem, the temperature fluctuation from day to night, and that also changes from season to season, is the problem.

If it's at a constant temperature, no matter how cold, you can design electronics to function in it. i.e., all the stuff in the ultra-cold parts of the JWST.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 05/14/2022 12:43 am
If it's at a constant temperature, no matter how cold, you can design electronics to function in it. i.e., all the stuff in the ultra-cold parts of the JWST.
True but expensive.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/14/2022 12:47 am
I gotta wonder how hard it’d be to make electronics that just don’t care if they get submerged in liquid nitrogen. Have to match CTEs and stuff, but it doesn’t seem like it should be impossible. Would avoid the need for a heater. (Batteries wouldn’t work at low temperatures, but that may be fine for some things).
Easy thing to do, and it is done. What it's really difficult is to make a very wide temperature range. You have differential expansion between aluminum, gold, nickel, ceramics, plastics, coatings, etc. Also, not all parts are semiconductors. Things like batteries, capacitors, etc. are not so simple. And once you get things like motors or anything that moves you stop having elastic and elastic material. So, you could design a whole system for liquid nitrogen temperature, that's hard. Designing for 70K to 350K is really hard.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 05/15/2022 12:03 am
Regarding dust build up, does it vary by much over Mars? The dust storms are typically global, but would say Hellas Planitia differ from how much the peaks of Tharsis (Olympus most obviously) receive?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deadman1204 on 05/15/2022 01:38 am
Regarding dust build up, does it vary by much over Mars? The dust storms are typically global, but would say Hellas Planitia differ from how much the peaks of Tharsis (Olympus most obviously) receive?
There are models, but we only have ground truth in a small number of locations. Otherwise, its based on weather observations from orbit.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 05/19/2022 12:44 pm
NASA's Mars InSight lander power running low, science achievements highlighted

https://youtu.be/ovqZWy4ugwI
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 05/21/2022 09:06 am
Regarding dust build up, does it vary by much over Mars? The dust storms are typically global, but would say Hellas Planitia differ from how much the peaks of Tharsis (Olympus most obviously) receive?

They vary in extent.  Most are not global
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: eeergo on 05/24/2022 02:28 pm
Good before-and-after view:

https://twitter.com/ThePlanetaryGuy/status/1528925504442621952
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: duh on 05/25/2022 07:55 pm
With the risk of seeing this post either moved to the party thread or being deleted by a moderator, how about bring the helicopter
back and do low flybys to blow the dust off. Variation of what someone suggested earlier about having a propeller on the lander.
On earth the dowdraft is substantial. On Mars, would it be sufficient to give some decrease in the dust covering to cause a few
percent (or a bit more) improvement? Of course, if there is a crash during this manuever it might be tough to have the NTSB get
there in a timely manner to investigate it, but sometimes you cannot have everything.  (Remind me to look for this post in the
party thread). It might also provide data for providing a propeller (or not) on future landers to blow dust off solar panels.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Phil Stooke on 05/25/2022 09:51 pm
I have seen this preposterous assertion made in <shudder> social media but did not expect to see it here.

Bring the helicopter back?  It wasn't here to begin with.  Bring it here from Jezero?  It can't fly that far.  It can't communicate without Perseverance so the rover would have to follow it, giving up on its actual mission.  Also it can't fly right now anyway, too little energy.

The idea of having a rotor above a solar panel to spin occasionally and blow dust off is not so foolish and much better than previous suggestions of having a brush or wiper (also known as 'scrape abrasive dust over your solar panels and see how they like it).  Unlikely, I would say, but not unreasonable.  A specific tilting or shaking mechanism for the panels is probably more likely.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: spacexplorer on 05/26/2022 11:02 am
A mission which lasts for 10 years provide much less scientific data than 10 different missions in 10 different places lasting 1 year each.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/26/2022 12:06 pm
A mission which lasts for 10 years provide much less scientific data than 10 different missions in 10 different places lasting 1 year each.

Nobody calculates things that way. It makes no sense. For starters, it costs way more to pay for 10 launches and operations costs for 10 separate missions. So the costs don't match up. And some scientific measurements have to be taken over a long period of time, like studying a full martian year.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deadman1204 on 05/26/2022 01:50 pm
I have seen this preposterous assertion made in <shudder> social media but did not expect to see it here.

Bring the helicopter back?  It wasn't here to begin with.  Bring it here from Jezero?  It can't fly that far.  It can't communicate without Perseverance so the rover would have to follow it, giving up on its actual mission.  Also it can't fly right now anyway, too little energy.

The idea of having a rotor above a solar panel to spin occasionally and blow dust off is not so foolish and much better than previous suggestions of having a brush or wiper (also known as 'scrape abrasive dust over your solar panels and see how they like it).  Unlikely, I would say, but not unreasonable.  A specific tilting or shaking mechanism for the panels is probably more likely.
Its always easier to say something should've been added on. Insight was a discovery class mission, there was a budget that limited things. I'd ignore social media, 99% of comments are throw away comments that have zero thought behind them.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: AstroWare on 05/26/2022 02:37 pm
I have seen this preposterous assertion made in <shudder> social media but did not expect to see it here.

Bring the helicopter back?  It wasn't here to begin with.  Bring it here from Jezero?  It can't fly that far.  It can't communicate without Perseverance so the rover would have to follow it, giving up on its actual mission.  Also it can't fly right now anyway, too little energy.

The idea of having a rotor above a solar panel to spin occasionally and blow dust off is not so foolish and much better than previous suggestions of having a brush or wiper (also known as 'scrape abrasive dust over your solar panels and see how they like it).  Unlikely, I would say, but not unreasonable.  A specific tilting or shaking mechanism for the panels is probably more likely.
Its always easier to say something should've been added on. Insight was a discovery class mission, there was a budget that limited things. I'd ignore social media, 99% of comments are throw away comments that have zero thought behind them.
I think the majority of people here understand that. Of course it's easier in retrospect to make design changes once you see what is an issue.

But this isn't the last mission to mars. A conversation now may be hindsight with respect to the current mission, but it's foresight for future missions.

The senior review for the latest mission extension talked about a recommendation to study the mission termination due to power levels falling. So I think it is also reasonable for people to discuss future design changes to solar powered Mars surface missions...

(Maybe that needs its own thread: The HindSight mission? Lol)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deadman1204 on 05/26/2022 04:08 pm
I have seen this preposterous assertion made in <shudder> social media but did not expect to see it here.

Bring the helicopter back?  It wasn't here to begin with.  Bring it here from Jezero?  It can't fly that far.  It can't communicate without Perseverance so the rover would have to follow it, giving up on its actual mission.  Also it can't fly right now anyway, too little energy.

The idea of having a rotor above a solar panel to spin occasionally and blow dust off is not so foolish and much better than previous suggestions of having a brush or wiper (also known as 'scrape abrasive dust over your solar panels and see how they like it).  Unlikely, I would say, but not unreasonable.  A specific tilting or shaking mechanism for the panels is probably more likely.
Its always easier to say something should've been added on. Insight was a discovery class mission, there was a budget that limited things. I'd ignore social media, 99% of comments are throw away comments that have zero thought behind them.
I think the majority of people here understand that. Of course it's easier in retrospect to make design changes once you see what is an issue.

But this isn't the last mission to mars. A conversation now may be hindsight with respect to the current mission, but it's foresight for future missions.

The senior review for the latest mission extension talked about a recommendation to study the mission termination due to power levels falling. So I think it is also reasonable for people to discuss future design changes to solar powered Mars surface missions...

(Maybe that needs its own thread: The HindSight mission? Lol)
There are other things to consider here. Was the design life of the instruments assuming the lander would run out of power around now? Why spend money on instruments that can last 10 years if you know you'll be out of power in 2-3. Its only worth the money, mass, space, time to have a method to clean the instrument panels if you have the money to make sure things can last long enough for it to be useful.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/26/2022 04:53 pm
There are other things to consider here. Was the design life of the instruments assuming the lander would run out of power around now? Why spend money on instruments that can last 10 years if you know you'll be out of power in 2-3. Its only worth the money, mass, space, time to have a method to clean the instrument panels if you have the money to make sure things can last long enough for it to be useful.

It's worth keeping in mind that spacecraft are designed to last for the primary mission lifetime. With Mars, I think that's usually two years (one Martian year). However, there is always enough margin that you can expect a mission to last for at least one mission extension (which is now nominally 3 years). But the design is for the prime mission.

I'm guessing that NASA has statistics on this stuff somewhere. Some spacecraft have died soon after their prime mission ends, so there is no guarantee that a spacecraft is going to last for a really long time.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: baldusi on 05/26/2022 05:06 pm
I'm more interesting in speculating if InSight has covered enough data to make a three lander followup unnecessary. Does anyone knows if they have enough data to characterize Mars core and nucleus?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Don2 on 05/26/2022 08:42 pm
Perseverance has a capability to blow dust off of abraded rocks:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/status/327/why-and-how-perseverance-abrades-rocks/
"Perseverance removes the cuttings using another tool on the turret called the Gaseous Dust Removal Tool (GDRT).  The GDRT has a tank of nitrogen gas and uses four short puffs to blow the cuttings away and reveal the fresh rock surface underneath."

They should test this out to see if it can clean the deck of the rover. A similar system could be used in future for solar panels.

In hindsight something like that should have been on Insight. However Spirit and Opportunity were cleaned by the Martian winds. I think Curiosity was as well. It seemed a good bet that the same would be true for Insight, which was badly over budget because of difficulties building the instruments.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deadman1204 on 05/26/2022 09:12 pm
Perseverance has a capability to blow dust off of abraded rocks:

https://mars.nasa.gov/mars2020/mission/status/327/why-and-how-perseverance-abrades-rocks/
"Perseverance removes the cuttings using another tool on the turret called the Gaseous Dust Removal Tool (GDRT).  The GDRT has a tank of nitrogen gas and uses four short puffs to blow the cuttings away and reveal the fresh rock surface underneath."

They should test this out to see if it can clean the deck of the rover. A similar system could be used in future for solar panels.

In hindsight something like that should have been on Insight. However Spirit and Opportunity were cleaned by the Martian winds. I think Curiosity was as well. It seemed a good bet that the same would be true for Insight, which was badly over budget because of difficulties building the instruments.
Curiosity is nuclear, it doesn't have solar panels.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Don2 on 05/27/2022 04:47 am
I think the rover deck on Curiosity was cleaned by the winds. It doesn't look as dirty as Insight in the pictures.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: clongton on 05/27/2022 04:57 pm
It's worth keeping in mind that spacecraft are designed to last for the primary mission lifetime. With Mars, I think that's usually two years (one Martian year). However, there is always enough margin that you can expect a mission to last for at least one mission extension (which is now nominally 3 years). But the design is for the prime mission.

Blackstar, does the rover have the capability to fold its solar panels and then reopen them again? If so that might be enough to remove a significant portion of the Martian dust.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JayWee on 05/27/2022 05:06 pm
The dust is tiny, Steve Squyres compared it to a cigarette smoke.
I somehow doubt folding the panels would do any help.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: edzieba on 05/27/2022 05:09 pm
I think the rover deck on Curiosity was cleaned by the winds. It doesn't look as dirty as Insight in the pictures.
The lack of dust-clearing winds in the location where Insight landed was abnormal compared to the experience with previous landers.
It's worth keeping in mind that spacecraft are designed to last for the primary mission lifetime. With Mars, I think that's usually two years (one Martian year). However, there is always enough margin that you can expect a mission to last for at least one mission extension (which is now nominally 3 years). But the design is for the prime mission.
Blackstar, does the rover have the capability to fold its solar panels and then reopen them again? If so that might be enough to remove a significant portion of the Martian dust.
The Ultraflex arrays do not have a system to retract.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: AstroWare on 05/27/2022 05:53 pm
The dust is tiny, Steve Squyres compared it to a cigarette smoke.
I somehow doubt folding the panels would do any help.
You remember where this was said? I would be interested in reading more about the specific observations.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JayWee on 05/27/2022 06:10 pm
The dust is tiny, Steve Squyres compared it to a cigarette smoke.
I somehow doubt folding the panels would do any help.
You remember where this was said? I would be interested in reading more about the specific observations.
Uhh, maybe 20 years ago during MERs in one of the briefings or talks.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: AstroWare on 05/27/2022 06:18 pm
The dust is tiny, Steve Squyres compared it to a cigarette smoke.
I somehow doubt folding the panels would do any help.
You remember where this was said? I would be interested in reading more about the specific observations.
Uhh, maybe 20 years ago during MERs in one of the briefings or talks.
Well, that was easier to find than I thought (this from 2018 podcast, but I'm sure he used the analogy quite a few times):

Steve Squyres: But, why did they last so long? There are really three reasons. One is we build good hardware. And, Jim, if you want to accuse us of over-engineering, I'll plead guilty as charged at this point, okay? (...) The second thing was we got lucky with the weather. One of the things that we thought was gonna kill these vehicles was gonna be buildup of dust on the solar rays. Mars has this very fine grain dust like cigarette smoke–sized in the Martian atmosphere. It settles out onto solar rays. And what had been seen on previous missions was just that they just build up dust continuously.

https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/news/488/gravity-assist-exploring-mars-with-spirit-and-opportunity-with-steve-squyres/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JayWee on 05/27/2022 06:26 pm
And this one from 2003
https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2003/09jul_marsdust
Quote
Because the martian atmosphere is thin--about 1% as dense as Earth's at sea level--only the smallest dust grains hang in the air. "Airborne dust on Mars is about as fine as cigarette smoke," says Bell
Kinda makes sense - low density atmosphere -> ability to carry particles is low.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Blackstar on 05/27/2022 06:29 pm
Just as a reminder (this has been discussed elsewhere on this board before), the issue of dust coating the solar panels is something that engineers were looking at back in the 1990s. Steve Squyres said with regards to the MERs that they looked at ways to clean off the rover panels, including brushes and shakers. They were not ideal. If you think about it, any moving part is something that can fail. And any moving part adds complexity. Plus, things like shakers could create threats to the panels themselves, like shorting out connections. So they concluded that the best solution was to make the panels bigger, so that they would still produce enough power when coated with dust.

In the case of a lander like InSight, you accept that at some point it's going to die. If you want something that lasts a lot longer, there is probably a point where bigger panels add too much mass, and it may drive the engineers to other solutions like brushes or shakers. But that's going to require an engineering trade study.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: JayWee on 05/27/2022 06:37 pm
There's also possibility of something like roll-off goggles - https://eu.riskracing.com/blogs/news/what-are-goggle-roll-offs-tear-offs-vs-roll-offs-cost-automatic-wireless-systems?currency=EUR

But as Squyres said - better to use the mass for larger solar panels.
Not to forget the brushes would have a problem with such a fine, very likely electrostatically-clinging, dust.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/27/2022 06:54 pm
This might be of interest in the furture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epX9kUuDmgY
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 05/30/2022 11:11 am
Station InSight sent the final selfie from Mars

13:04 30 May 2022

The automatic station InSight sent back to Earth the last selfie, made up of frames taken with the help of a robotic arm. In the near future, it will be turned off forever, and in three months the station will complete its scientific program, according to the NASA website.

InSight has been operating  on Mars for 3.6 years, becoming the first full-fledged geophysical extraterrestrial research program. The station recorded more than 1,300 marsquakes, including on the  far side of the  planet, and thanks to the data it collected, planetary scientists  determined the  main boundaries between the layers of Mars, made  a detailed diagram of the subsurface layers, estimated the size  of the Red Planet's core and revealed  the seasonality of marsquakes.

The station is provided with electricity by two large solar panels, initially scientists expected that dust whirlwinds would periodically clean them from dust, but the forecasts  did not materialize . As a result, the output power of the batteries has now fallen by a factor of 10, and attempts to clean them with a manipulator  have proved  ineffective. This led to the fact that at first NASA  extended  the operation of the station only until the end of this year, and then decided to complete the scientific program by the end of summer.

On April 24, 2022, on Sol 1211 of station operation, InSight received its last selfie, which is composed of frames taken by the IDC (Instrument Deployment Camera) camera mounted on the 2.4-meter IDA (Instrument Deployment Arm) robotic arm. In the near future, the manipulator will be transferred to the rest position and will no longer be used during the operation of the device.

If we compare the first  selfie taken by the station in December 2018 and the new one, then a thick layer of dust covering all the elements of the device becomes noticeable, the absence of SEIS and  HP 3 instruments that were landed on Mars using a manipulator, as well as severe local soil pollution of the station near one of her solar arrays, a by-product of attempts to clean sand from the arrays.

We talked about the scientific program of the station and the difficulties in researching the geology of Mars in the materials  “Look inside the Red Planet” ,   “Seismograph for Mars”  and “45 centimeters in 50 years” .

Alexander Voytyuk

https://nplus1.ru/news/2022/05/30/last-selfie-insight
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deadman1204 on 05/31/2022 06:39 pm
since were talking about such tiny dust grains compared to earth dust, how much does electrostatic forces come into play, possibly making the dust stick to a panel making it harder to remove?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Dalhousie on 06/01/2022 12:09 am
since were talking about such tiny dust grains compared to earth dust, how much does electrostatic forces come into play, possibly making the dust stick to a panel making it harder to remove?

The silt/very fine sand-sized particles slid off very easily off Opportunity's panels when the rover moved on a slope, so not a large role I suspect.

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: centaurinasa on 06/01/2022 08:54 am
https://twitter.com/NASAInSight/status/1529165957544878080?cxt=HHwWgICp4cSV2LgqAAAA
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 06/22/2022 09:36 am
NASA InSight’s Power Level as of June 19, 2022

Naomi Hartono Posted on June 21, 2022

More information about InSight’s power level will be available here in the weeks ahead. On June 19, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 410 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at 1.12 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2022/06/21/nasa-insights-power-level-as-of-june-19-2022/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 06/26/2022 09:48 am
InSight sacrifices crash protection to keep Martian seismograph running..

19:20 25 June 2022

The team of the automatic Mars station InSight decided to extend the life of the SEIS seismograph until the end of August or the beginning of September of this year. To do this, engineers will turn off the device’s failure protection system, thanks to which it will be able to save electricity, but at any time it can fail without the possibility of repair, according to the NASA website.

InSight (Interior Exploration using Seismic Investigations, Geodesy and Heat Transport) has been operating on Mars for more than three and a half years, although it was originally estimated to have a lifespan of just over a year. The station is engaged in geophysical research of Mars and has registered more than 1300 marsquakes to date. It is supplied with electricity by two large solar panels, on which dust constantly accumulates. The researchers hoped that dust devils or gusts of wind would be able to clean the batteries, but this did not happen , and attempts to manually remove dust from the batteries turned out to be ineffective.

As a result, the electric power generated by the batteries fell 10 times, which initially led to a reduction in the possible life of the station until the end of December this year. Then NASA decided to end the science program ahead of schedule by the fall, as the level of available power is also falling due to the onset of the Martian winter. Currently, all scientific instruments, except for the SEIS seismograph, have already been turned off, and the robotic arm has been put into rest mode to save energy.

Initially, NASA planned that SEIS would be turned off at the end of June, but now engineers have decided to take a risky step to obtain the largest possible amount of scientific data on the seismic activity of the Red Planet. SEIS will now operate until the end of August or early September, and in order for it to have enough power, the station team will turn off the fail-safe system, which automatically puts the device into a safe mode in case of failures or adverse weather conditions. Thus, in case of possible accidents, engineers will not have time to respond to them and InSight can fail at any time.

InSight has made many scientific discoveries, in particular, it has helped to determine the main boundaries between the layers of Mars, draw up a detailed diagram of the subsurface layers, estimate the size of the Red Planet's core, and  identify the seasonality of marsquakes. You can find out how scientists fought with the Red Planet for the life of one of the scientific instruments of the station in the material "45 centimeters in 50 years" .

Alexander Voytyuk

https://nplus1.ru/news/2022/06/25/insight-work-harder

Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: redliox on 07/02/2022 12:19 pm
With Insight in it's waning days, has there been any thoughts on a successor, specific to Mars?
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: deadman1204 on 07/03/2022 04:03 pm
With Insight in it's waning days, has there been any thoughts on a successor, specific to Mars?
Insight was a competed discovery mission. A successor would likely need to win in the next discovery mission selection.
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: vjkane on 07/03/2022 05:17 pm
With Insight in it's waning days, has there been any thoughts on a successor, specific to Mars?
The low cost Mars mission workshop last January had a number of drone and helicopter concepts for science missions.

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lowcostmars2022/pdf/lowcostmars2022_program.htm (https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lowcostmars2022/pdf/lowcostmars2022_program.htm)
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Don2 on 07/03/2022 08:00 pm
With Insight in it's waning days, has there been any thoughts on a successor, specific to Mars?
The low cost Mars mission workshop last January had a number of drone and helicopter concepts for science missions.

https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lowcostmars2022/pdf/lowcostmars2022_program.htm (https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lowcostmars2022/pdf/lowcostmars2022_program.htm)

In particular, there is a concept for a network of penetrators to investigate the seismic activity around Cerberus Fossae, which appears to be the most seismically active region of Mars. They propose sending 6 penetrators in order to establish a network of at least 4 stations.

The authors speculate that Cerberus Fossae may have erupted in the past 10 million years and that that eruption produced flowing water on the surface.

The authors complain about the lack of power options, stating that this has been a problem for small penetrators. They propose to use rugged solar panels. In my opinion, NASA has overlooked the potential value of developing small RTGs, which could enable many small missions.

"A CERBERUS FOSSAE SEISMIC NETWORK"
https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/lowcostmars2022/pdf/5024.pdf
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 07/13/2022 04:17 pm
NASA InSight’s Power Level as of July 9, 2022

Naomi Hartono Posted on July 13, 2022

On July 9, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 399 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at 1.02 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2022/07/13/nasa-insights-power-level-as-of-july-9-2022/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Sam Ho on 07/28/2022 07:36 pm
A few more power readings from the InSight team:

NASA InSight’s Power Level as of July 24, 2022
On July 16, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 408 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at .94 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

NASA InSight’s Power Level as of July 20, 2022
On July 16, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 385-400 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at .99 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

NASA InSight’s Power Level as of July 9, 2022
On July 9, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 399 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at 1.02 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

NASA InSight’s Power Level as of July 2, 2022
On July 2, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 400 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at 1.02 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

NASA InSight’s Power Level as of June 19, 2022
More information about InSight’s power level will be available here in the weeks ahead. On June 19, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 410 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at 1.12 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: Rondaz on 08/03/2022 12:33 am
NASA InSight’s Power Level as of July 31, 2022

Naomi Hartono Posted on August 2, 2022

On July 31, 2022, InSight was generating an average of 400 watt-hours of energy per Martian day, or sol. The tau, or level of dust cover in the atmosphere, was estimated at .91 (typical tau levels outside of dust season range from 0.6-0.7).

https://blogs.nasa.gov/insight/2022/08/02/nasa-insights-power-level-as-of-july-31-2022/
Title: Re: The InSight Mission to Mars Master Thread
Post by: AstroWare on 08/03/2022 01:33 am
In case anyone else was curious, the Winter solstice was Jul 21 2022.