Author Topic: Who will write the full story of NLS/Constellation/Direct/HLLV/SLS?  (Read 9576 times)

Offline JAFO

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On occasion I've tried to explain to my non-space geek friends what happened to Constellation, about Direct and it's heritage in NLS, and the rumors of reprisal for anyone who disagreed with the Constellation.

Do you think anyone will ever put it all together in one volume? I'd buy that book.
« Last Edit: 07/01/2012 01:48 am by JAFO »
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Offline daver

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Title:  How We Lost The Moon

Offline Downix

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On occasion I've tried to explain to my non-space geek friends what happened to Constellation, about Direct and it's heritage in NLS, nd the rumors of reprisal for anyone who disagreed with the Constellation.

Do you think anyone will ever put it all together in one volume? I'd buy that book.
Hmm, I'm not doing anything...
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline MATTBLAK

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One of the only troubles writing such a book will be reading the reviews later; you'd be accused of bias and so called paraphrasing. You've only got to read some of the arguments over the years on this website (and others) where you get people saying "That's not how it happened" or "That's not what they meant" or "that's not how they got to that decision".
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Offline edkyle99

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On occasion I've tried to explain to my non-space geek friends what happened to Constellation, about Direct and it's heritage in NLS, and the rumors of reprisal for anyone who disagreed with the Constellation.

Do you think anyone will ever put it all together in one volume? I'd buy that book.
Any such story will be hard to present in unbiased fashion, perhaps impossible to present in unbiased fashion by anyone involved, and I'm not sure if enough would want to read it to make it worthwhile.  Your "rumors of reprisal" is an example of the loaded, unsubstantiated types of discussions that have surrounded this affair, for years.  The topic is personal, and political, and rumor plagued, and it doesn't have a happy ending. 

 - Ed Kyle

Offline MATTBLAK

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"Rumors of reprisal" may on occasion have been exaggerated and comments/actions related to it apocryphal even. But the reprisals - severe or not - were real. I'm sure people like Chuck Longton and Ross Tierney have stored up anecdotes of events recounted by their colleagues, not to mention things that happened to themselves through the whole 'Direct' process.
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Offline QuantumG

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pfft.. unbiased. Publish the most biased account of history you can.. if you annoy enough people they'll publish their own biased account. Future readers will argue over which account was true, and keep the memory alive. Oh, and in a hundred years, no-one will read your blog but dead trees will still sit on shelves.
Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline kraisee

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I don't normally come to the forum any more, but a friend mentioned this thread so I thought I should momentarily come out of retirement and respond, to put this subject to rest once and for all.

As the only person on the DIRECT Team with access to every other member of the team my input in a book would be essential.   With the utmost respect to both, neither Steve Metschan nor Chuck Longton have all the pieces.

I am sorry to say, but I have already refused to be involved in a book because it would only serve to pick at scabs, embarrass the agency and stroke some people's ego's.   That was never part of the reason for me creating DIRECT.

I apologize to all those who would like to learn more about what we did and how we did it, but everything that will ever see the light of day is already published -- most of it on this forum.

DIRECT is over.   I suggest everyone concentrate on building the future instead of reminiscing over the past.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline MATTBLAK

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Appreciate your reply, Ross and its good to hear from you. And if you fully re-read some of the posts above, mine included, you'll see that we already agree with you. 'Picking at scabs' seems to imply, from my point of view, that this subject is hard for you to talk about. I respect that as doubtless others do as well.

Nonetheless, if anyone does write a future book about the demise of Constellation and talks about why; the blogosphere's hatred of CXP will certainly be mentioned and we must expect 'DIRECT' to make up one or three paragraphs in such a book. Its only natural. 'DIRECT' was important - for a time. Anyone who denies that may be, er... In denial. All other related factors can be disseminated endlessly. Er... But I hope not!
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Offline Downix

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Appreciate your reply, Ross and its good to hear from you. And if you fully re-read some of the posts above, mine included, you'll see that we already agree with you. 'Picking at scabs' seems to imply, from my point of view, that this subject is hard for you to talk about. I respect that as doubtless others do as well.

Nonetheless, if anyone does write a future book about the demise of Constellation and talks about why; the blogosphere's hatred of CXP will certainly be mentioned and we must expect 'DIRECT' to make up one or three paragraphs in such a book. Its only natural. 'DIRECT' was important - for a time. Anyone who denies that may be, er... In denial. All other related factors can be disseminated endlessly. Er... But I hope not!
It also would depend on how it is done as well. If presented as an either-or message, yes, would be used to bruise egos, pick at scabs, etc. But it could be done differently, instead focusing less on the conflict, but on the lessons learned from both and how they lead to SLS. Focusing on the future by presenting the past for lessons learned.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline MATTBLAK

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Agreed. And doing a chronological run through of 'this was proposed by so-and-so, and adopted' or 'this was proposed and rejected/cancelled' is essential. Just report the facts without showing bias and teeth-gnashing. "The Direct men made their presentation and this is what they believed". Just that - no second guessing or post-mortems as such. Let the reader decide who was right. Or quote notable people on both sides of the fence; "we believe this was good because" and "this is why we think this was a bad idea."

No editorializing - just the facts. Hard in this day and age, I know.
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Offline daver

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  I'd like to hear the NASA side/bias of this story.   I'm fairly angry that so much money

 and a once in a generation opportunity was wasted.    How was a rocket (Ares I) selected that

 wasn't possible to build and function as advertised?    How did NASA interpret VSE into ESAS?    ???

Offline sdsds

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How was it selected? Probabilistic Risk Assessment. Would it have worked? Probably. ;)
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 —

Offline Downix

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How was it selected? Probabilistic Risk Assessment. Would it have worked? Probably. ;)
If they'd have stuck to it, sure. Although I suspect the cost to air-start the SSME would have been higher than the original estimate.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline MATTBLAK

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It's some story, Daver - quite a story. But to try and summarize it here would probably make the Moderators step in after quite a 'pie throwing' fight had got up and running. I will just keep my version to one sentence: Constellation did not need cancellation; just pragmatic alteration - some of it radical. That's all I'm going to say.

Read back through the old threads and a picture may emerge for you.
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Offline Downix

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It's some story, Daver - quite a story. But to try and summarize it here would probably make the Moderators step in after quite a 'pie throwing' fight had got up and running. I will just keep my version to one sentence: Constellation did not need cancellation; just pragmatic alteration - some of it radical. That's all I'm going to say.

Read back through the old threads and a picture may emerge for you.
You put it well.
chuck - Toilet paper has no real value? Try living with 5 other adults for 6 months in a can with no toilet paper. Man oh man. Toilet paper would be worth it's weight in gold!

Offline daver

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I'm pretty familiar with the whole story.   Guess that's why I'm angry and want to hear NASA's side.

Offline FinalFrontier

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I don't normally come to the forum any more, but a friend mentioned this thread so I thought I should momentarily come out of retirement and respond, to put this subject to rest once and for all.

As the only person on the DIRECT Team with access to every other member of the team my input in a book would be essential.   With the utmost respect to both, neither Steve Metschan nor Chuck Longton have all the pieces.

I am sorry to say, but I have already refused to be involved in a book because it would only serve to pick at scabs, embarrass the agency and stroke some people's ego's.   That was never part of the reason for me creating DIRECT.

I apologize to all those who would like to learn more about what we did and how we did it, but everything that will ever see the light of day is already published -- most of it on this forum.

DIRECT is over.   I suggest everyone concentrate on building the future instead of reminiscing over the past.

Ross.


I honestly never expected to see you around here again, but I appreciate the reply and I agree as far as the history is concerned. I won't comment on what you said about Chuck and Steve.


This is perhaps, one piece of history that should fade with time. Those of us who were here to watch it, or were a part of it can pass it on to our children and grandchildren if we want, or share it with friends, but aside from that this is not really something that ought to be made into a book or a movie, although someone here is attempting the latter atm.

I do hope you read this reply at some point.

FF

« Last Edit: 07/01/2012 05:29 am by FinalFrontier »
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Offline FinalFrontier

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I'm pretty familiar with the whole story.   Guess that's why I'm angry and want to hear NASA's side.


What side would that be? Most of the people who would have provided counterpoints are fired, disgraced, or both over the cxp nightmare. And this is essentially their biggest embarrassment I doubt they would want to discuss it.

The rest are people who either won't speak about it, or won't have much to say if they do, largely because they were involved.

I do get where your coming from I just don't see the point.


World's moved on already.
« Last Edit: 07/01/2012 05:27 am by FinalFrontier »
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Offline Chris Bergin

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