Author Topic: Trump promises to 'plant the American flag on Mars' & build defense shield  (Read 20965 times)

Offline deadman1204

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1652
  • USA
  • Liked: 1393
  • Likes Given: 2329

Pence served on the Science Committee and its subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics from 2001-2002.

https://libraries.indiana.edu/mike-pence-congressional-papers
I'd call only 2 years on a committee that he then chose to leave a sign of not much interest. Pence was involved in space in the trump admin because he was laying the groundwork for a presidential campaign. Space is a "happy good thing" that everyone kinda enjoys. It was a great way for him to be in the news about non-partisan stuff.
« Last Edit: 11/30/2022 05:07 pm by deadman1204 »

Offline Slarty1080

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2697
  • UK
  • Liked: 1838
  • Likes Given: 804
If Trump gets in again and wants a human to plant an American flag on Mars then he really has his work cut out. I would first question if any such attempt would be truly genuine, rather than some politically based initiative with a range of ulterior motives that might involve Mars and rockets (which I suspect it is, as Trump doesn’t appear to me to be a technophile Mars loving geek like Musk. And to be fair I suspect few if any of the critters in Congress are either).

But giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he really does want an American flag planted on Mars for its own sake, then he needs to be very politically savvy and intensely rational about goals, means, costs and time frames. I will make no comment concerning Trumps abilities in these areas, but he will need to get congress onboard and the money lined up (somehow) and he needs a good highly technically competent “lieutenant” who would be capable of talking directly to someone like Elon Musk about truly practical issues of how to go about it.

Any attempt based on grandstanding, arm waving and chest beating will suffer from a painful bite on the posterior by reality. Grandstanding, arm waving and chest beating are fine of course (de rigueur even these days) but should come after the practical issues have been addressed. I hope for the best but fear the worst.
My optimistic hope is that it will become cool to really think about things... rather than just doing reactive bullsh*t based on no knowledge (Brian Cox)

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
If Trump gets in again and wants a human to plant an American flag on Mars then he really has his work cut out. I would first question if any such attempt would be truly genuine, rather than some politically based initiative with a range of ulterior motives that might involve Mars and rockets (which I suspect it is, as Trump doesn’t appear to me to be a technophile Mars loving geek like Musk. And to be fair I suspect few if any of the critters in Congress are either).

But giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he really does want an American flag planted on Mars for its own sake, then he needs to be very politically savvy and intensely rational about goals, means, costs and time frames. I will make no comment concerning Trumps abilities in these areas, but he will need to get congress onboard and the money lined up (somehow) and he needs a good highly technically competent “lieutenant” who would be capable of talking directly to someone like Elon Musk about truly practical issues of how to go about it.

Any attempt based on grandstanding, arm waving and chest beating will suffer from a painful bite on the posterior by reality. Grandstanding, arm waving and chest beating are fine of course (de rigueur even these days) but should come after the practical issues have been addressed. I hope for the best but fear the worst.

I think that Trump or any other President for that matter look at the big picture, the how to get to Mars would be up to other people such as the NASA Administrator, OMB, Congress, etc.

Offline deadman1204

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1652
  • USA
  • Liked: 1393
  • Likes Given: 2329
If Trump gets in again and wants a human to plant an American flag on Mars then he really has his work cut out. I would first question if any such attempt would be truly genuine, rather than some politically based initiative with a range of ulterior motives that might involve Mars and rockets (which I suspect it is, as Trump doesn’t appear to me to be a technophile Mars loving geek like Musk. And to be fair I suspect few if any of the critters in Congress are either).

But giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he really does want an American flag planted on Mars for its own sake, then he needs to be very politically savvy and intensely rational about goals, means, costs and time frames. I will make no comment concerning Trumps abilities in these areas, but he will need to get congress onboard and the money lined up (somehow) and he needs a good highly technically competent “lieutenant” who would be capable of talking directly to someone like Elon Musk about truly practical issues of how to go about it.

Any attempt based on grandstanding, arm waving and chest beating will suffer from a painful bite on the posterior by reality. Grandstanding, arm waving and chest beating are fine of course (de rigueur even these days) but should come after the practical issues have been addressed. I hope for the best but fear the worst.
The thing is, he can't do this. It has nothing to do with the person or even the party. EVERY major space initiative that didnt have all of congress behind it has failed, dem or republican. History is littered with space missions that went nowhere beyond a few speeches.
Congress is not excited about this proclamation of trumps, which means its dead in the water and PR only.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2022 03:35 pm by deadman1204 »

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
Why would Congress act on what a Presidential candidate says?

Offline deadman1204

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1652
  • USA
  • Liked: 1393
  • Likes Given: 2329
Why would Congress act on what a Presidential candidate says?
You make my point for me.

This statement is just hot air. It doesn't matter what any candidate says. This is a many billion dollar idea (WAY more than SLS). Unless its obvious that congress would be all about it, its nothing more than a fantasy.  Thats my point, trump is WAY to polarizing to win over both parties for an idea like this (he was just the 3rd or 4th president in line for SLS, he didn't start sls/orion/gateway/moon trip ect. He just renamed some of it and let the programs continue). Without congress this is just fantasy.
« Last Edit: 12/05/2022 07:30 pm by deadman1204 »

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10879
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1253
  • Likes Given: 718
The how to get to Mars would be up to other people such as the NASA Administrator, OMB, Congress, etc.

Sure, it would be up to "other people", but the people you mention are not going to do it.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
The how to get to Mars would be up to other people such as the NASA Administrator, OMB, Congress, etc.

Sure, it would be up to "other people", but the people you mention are not going to do it.

They are obviously not going to take orders from a Presidential candidate, he would have to be President. We saw what happened with Artemis, it's a long process to get a program such as HLS fully funded. In 2019, Vice President Pence made a speech saying that Artemis had to be accelerated to 2024. In order to accomplish this, the President proposed a FY20 supplementary budget (see the link below) of $1B for HLS (essentially for the base period) but only received $654.1M. In FY21, the President requested $3369.8M for HLS (essentially for Option A) but Congress only funded a portion of that, $928.3M. In FY22, the President requested $1,195.0M and received that amount. In FY23, the President requested $1,485.6M for HLS which includes funding for Appendix P (the House and Senate seem to be open to fully funded that, at least as of now). According to the FY23 budget request, the requested funding for HLS should gradually increase and should eventually reach $2,537.9M in FY27.

Presumably, the process for a NRHO to Mars public-private partnership program would be similar to what happened for the HLS program. But in my view, NASA should focus on HLS for now. They shouldn't think of a NRHO to Mars program until the HLS program is successful.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_fy_2020_budget_amendment_summary.pdf

https://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 12:04 am by yg1968 »

Offline Coastal Ron

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8572
  • I live... along the coast
  • Liked: 9934
  • Likes Given: 11641
The how to get to Mars would be up to other people such as the NASA Administrator, OMB, Congress, etc.

Sure, it would be up to "other people", but the people you mention are not going to do it.
They are obviously not going to take orders from a Presidential candidate, he would have to be President.

This whole thread assumes that Trump said what he said as part of a vision for the American people, versus the more likely situation that Trump said what he said to get attention.

While in the office as President, Trump showed little true interest in learning about what NASA could and could not do. For instance, in 2017 Trump had this exchange with Peggy Whitson, the commander of the International Space Station, and fellow American astronaut Jack Fischer:
Quote
TRUMP: “Tell me: Mars, what do you see a timing for actually sending humans to Mars? Is there a schedule and when would you see that happening?”

WHITSON: “Well, I think as your bill directed, it'll be approximately in the 2030s. As I mentioned, we actually are building hardware to test the new heavy launch vehicle, and this vehicle will take us further than we've ever been away from this planet.

“So, unfortunately space flight takes a lot of time and money so getting there will require some international cooperation to get the — it to be a planet-wide approach in order to make it successful just because it is a very expensive endeavor. But it is so worthwhile doing.”

TRUMP: “Well, we want to try and do it during my first term or, at worst, during my second term, so we'll have to speed that up a little bit, okay?”

WHITSON: “We'll do our best.”


Clearly Trump was not educated on any of the issues related to what it takes to send humans to Mars. And that is something of a hallmark of Trump, in that he is famous for not being educated in the details of how the U.S. Government ran, or what it even did.

Now here he is, almost two years out of office, and during that time he has shown no interest in space, much less Mars. And out of the blue he proposes "planting the American flag on Mars"?

Trump is obviously not serious about WHY America should commit taxpayer money to such a venture, and that is why this was only a case of crying for attention. Grandstanding. Trumpism at its finest (if you are into that kind of thing)...
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
This whole thread assumes that Trump said what he said as part of a vision for the American people, versus the more likely situation that Trump said what he said to get attention.

While in the office as President, Trump showed little true interest in learning about what NASA could and could not do. For instance, in 2017 Trump had this exchange with Peggy Whitson, the commander of the International Space Station, and fellow American astronaut Jack Fischer:
Quote
TRUMP: “Tell me: Mars, what do you see a timing for actually sending humans to Mars? Is there a schedule and when would you see that happening?”

WHITSON: “Well, I think as your bill directed, it'll be approximately in the 2030s. As I mentioned, we actually are building hardware to test the new heavy launch vehicle, and this vehicle will take us further than we've ever been away from this planet.

“So, unfortunately space flight takes a lot of time and money so getting there will require some international cooperation to get the — it to be a planet-wide approach in order to make it successful just because it is a very expensive endeavor. But it is so worthwhile doing.”

TRUMP: “Well, we want to try and do it during my first term or, at worst, during my second term, so we'll have to speed that up a little bit, okay?”

WHITSON: “We'll do our best.”


Clearly Trump was not educated on any of the issues related to what it takes to send humans to Mars. And that is something of a hallmark of Trump, in that he is famous for not being educated in the details of how the U.S. Government ran, or what it even did.

Now here he is, almost two years out of office, and during that time he has shown no interest in space, much less Mars. And out of the blue he proposes "planting the American flag on Mars"?

Trump is obviously not serious about WHY America should commit taxpayer money to such a venture, and that is why this was only a case of crying for attention. Grandstanding. Trumpism at its finest (if you are into that kind of thing)...

Trump (like many other Presidents) is a big picture guy, he doesn't want to know the details as long as it gets done. In that exchange, I disagree with what Whitson is saying, the United States doesn't need international cooperation to get humans to Mars. International cooperation is nice to have but it shouldn't be in the critical path. For Mars, a NRHO to Mars public-private partnership that is similar to HLS should be created, you wouldn't even have to cancel SLS and Orion. Having said that, like I said above, you need to make sure that HLS is a success before moving on to the next step. Incidentally, the exchange between Trump and Whitson was in April 2017, before Artemis was announced. It seems that the idea that NASA should accomplish something important for human exploration before the end of 2024 seems to have stayed for the Artemis program.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 02:53 am by yg1968 »

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10879
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1253
  • Likes Given: 718
Trump is the first President in modern history to have shunned reading detailed briefings...

Um, you realize that Trump hasn't been in office for two years?  And while we're realizing, you realize that JFK was the last prez to successfully realize his stated goal, and that a good number of years after his untimely death?  Reading briefings is not the sine qua non of the office.

Has this thread has run its course?
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 09:22 am by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline deadman1204

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1652
  • USA
  • Liked: 1393
  • Likes Given: 2329
The how to get to Mars would be up to other people such as the NASA Administrator, OMB, Congress, etc.

Sure, it would be up to "other people", but the people you mention are not going to do it.

They are obviously not going to take orders from a Presidential candidate, he would have to be President. We saw what happened with Artemis, it's a long process to get a program such as HLS fully funded. In 2019, Vice President Pence made a speech saying that Artemis had to be accelerated to 2024. In order to accomplish this, the President proposed a FY20 supplementary budget (see the link below) of $1B for HLS (essentially for the base period) but only received $654.1M. In FY21, the President requested $3369.8M for HLS (essentially for Option A) but Congress only funded a portion of that, $928.3M. In FY22, the President requested $1,195.0M and received that amount. In FY23, the President requested $1,485.6M for HLS which includes funding for Appendix P (the House and Senate seem to be open to fully funded that, at least as of now). According to the FY23 budget request, the requested funding for HLS should gradually increase and should eventually reach $2,537.9M in FY27.

Presumably, the process for a NRHO to Mars public-private partnership program would be similar to what happened for the HLS program. But in my view, NASA should focus on HLS for now. They shouldn't think of a NRHO to Mars program until the HLS program is successful.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_fy_2020_budget_amendment_summary.pdf

https://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html
The thing is, HLS wasn't "trump". The selection happened after trump left office.
The 2021 budget passed in the lame duck session with democrat (house) help. All of Artimis is a bipartisan issue.
The only reason HLS/Artimis is happening is because congress (both parties) want it to.

This original statement/thread is all just hot air. Congress isn't into it. Judging solely on how he acted when in office, trump wouldn't want to burn ALL his political capital to attempt to get congress to do something like this. It would be an ENORMOUS lift. Considering how radioactively partisan he is, its functionally impossible - which is only considering democrats. He would still need his own party to cough up 10s of billions of dollars as well.

The mods get cranky when we judge trump by his actions, but this statement is a meaningless throwaway. Just words to get attention.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 02:12 pm by deadman1204 »

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
The how to get to Mars would be up to other people such as the NASA Administrator, OMB, Congress, etc.

Sure, it would be up to "other people", but the people you mention are not going to do it.

They are obviously not going to take orders from a Presidential candidate, he would have to be President. We saw what happened with Artemis, it's a long process to get a program such as HLS fully funded. In 2019, Vice President Pence made a speech saying that Artemis had to be accelerated to 2024. In order to accomplish this, the President proposed a FY20 supplementary budget (see the link below) of $1B for HLS (essentially for the base period) but only received $654.1M. In FY21, the President requested $3369.8M for HLS (essentially for Option A) but Congress only funded a portion of that, $928.3M. In FY22, the President requested $1,195.0M and received that amount. In FY23, the President requested $1,485.6M for HLS which includes funding for Appendix P (the House and Senate seem to be open to fully funded that, at least as of now). According to the FY23 budget request, the requested funding for HLS should gradually increase and should eventually reach $2,537.9M in FY27.

Presumably, the process for a NRHO to Mars public-private partnership program would be similar to what happened for the HLS program. But in my view, NASA should focus on HLS for now. They shouldn't think of a NRHO to Mars program until the HLS program is successful.

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_fy_2020_budget_amendment_summary.pdf

https://www.nasa.gov/news/budget/index.html
The thing is, HLS wasn't "trump". The selection happened after trump left office.

The selection for the HLS base period was made in 2020. Option A was selected in April 2021 before Nelson became administrator. The selection officer for Option A was Lueders who was picked by Bridenstine. Jurczyk, the NASA Administrator at that time had also been picked by Bridenstine to be Associate Administrator (the Associate Administrator generally becomes Administrator before a new NASA Administrator is named).

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
And if the effort to go to Mars ends up being as badly managed as the effort to return to the Moon has been, then NASA will NEVER be funded enough money to get humans to surface of Mars.

Pretty much nothing NASA is building for Artemis, for the Moon, will be able to be used as-is on a Mars mission. Which means that NASA is more than a decade away from going to Mars AFTER such an effort is funded. And Congress is barely funding the Artemis program enough to reach the Moon, so thinking Congress will bump up NASA's budget by $10B per year or more for a concurrent Mars mission - well, let's just say that is not something a rational person would assume today...  ;)

A lot of your post is off topic (and I won't respond to that part). Play the ball (the Moon or Mars in this case), not the man (Trump in this case) is a fairly easy concept to understand.

In any event, I disagree that Artemis has been mismanaged. The problem with SLS and Orion is that they are governmental programs, not that they are mismanaged.

For the human exploration of Mars, it doesn't need to be $10B per year. NASA can take advantage of Starship. If Starship is successful, a crewed mission to Mars is possible. All that NASA needs to do is purchase the services from SpaceX. The best way to ensure that a Mars human exploration program is successful is by ensuring that HLS is successful.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 03:21 pm by yg1968 »

Offline Coastal Ron

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8572
  • I live... along the coast
  • Liked: 9934
  • Likes Given: 11641
And if the effort to go to Mars ends up being as badly managed as the effort to return to the Moon has been, then NASA will NEVER be funded enough money to get humans to surface of Mars.

Pretty much nothing NASA is building for Artemis, for the Moon, will be able to be used as-is on a Mars mission. Which means that NASA is more than a decade away from going to Mars AFTER such an effort is funded. And Congress is barely funding the Artemis program enough to reach the Moon, so thinking Congress will bump up NASA's budget by $10B per year or more for a concurrent Mars mission - well, let's just say that is not something a rational person would assume today...  ;)
A lot of your post is off topic (and I won't respond to that part). Play the ball (the Moon or Mars in this case), not the man (Trump in this case) is a fairly easy concept to understand.

Not sure you realize what topic this is, but the title starts with "Trump promises to...", and Trump isn't even an elected official anymore, so yes, this is about the man, and whether his so called "promises" as a non-elected official deserve consideration.

And in order to believe that his "promises" deserve consideration, you have to have some degree of belief that Trump has a clue about what he is proposing. And I have shown, and the world knows, Trump showed a distinct lack of interest in the details of running the U.S. Government when he was President (which he isn't anymore), which I suggest means that he has no clue what his so called "promises" mean to the people of the U.S.

If you want to talk about the possibilities of going to Mars, there are plenty of other threads for that. This one is specific to Trump, and what he "promises" will happen.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline D_Dom

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 646
  • Liked: 456
  • Likes Given: 151
Not saying you are wrong, in fact I agree with you across the board. That being said I have been thinking about deleting this thread since first noticing it, because of the "promise" in the thread title among many reasons. If anybody wants to keep posting to this thread then  everybody must stay excellent.

As John Fornaro pointed out, this thread has about run its course.
« Last Edit: 12/07/2022 09:10 pm by D_Dom »
Space is not merely a matter of life or death, it is considerably more important than that!

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16810
  • Liked: 6737
  • Likes Given: 2931
If you want my opinion, it's better to lock a thread than deleting it. Perhaps, it has run its course.

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10230
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2392
  • Likes Given: 13401
Trump (like many other Presidents) is a big picture guy, he doesn't want to know the details as long as it gets done. In that exchange, I disagree with what Whitson is saying, the United States doesn't need international cooperation to get humans to Mars.
You're entitled to  your opinion.

Except the only way the Orion SM got done was because ESA supplied as it's contribution to ISS support.

Mercury didn't need that.

Gemini didn't need that.

Apollo didn't need that.

The contractor swallowed the whole budget on the capsule. Not a cent on the SM left.

But perhaps you feel Sen. Shellby and the other Senators of the "Space states" failed to secure adequate funding for Orion during its long construction period and with just a little bit more of a push it could have stayed a 100% US effort?

That's possible. If Trump is elected again maybe we'll find out.

Or not.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2022 08:36 pm by john smith 19 »
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022 TBC. T&C apply. Trust nothing. Run your own #s "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap SCramjet proposed 1956. First +ve thrust 2004. US R&D spend to date > $10Bn. #deployed designs. Zero.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10879
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1253
  • Likes Given: 718
If you want my opinion, it's better to lock a thread than deleting it. Perhaps, it has run its course.

My freewheeling  opinions have led to several iffy threads being locked down.  Some of them were removed, and I agree with Yves, that thread lockdowns are far more preferable than removal.  When the threads are left up, then people have a chance to discover and understand the reason for the mods actions.  The memory hole is not a good look for NSF.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline JohnFornaro

  • Not an expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10879
  • Delta-t is an important metric.
  • Planet Eaarth
    • Design / Program Associates
  • Liked: 1253
  • Likes Given: 718
[deleted]

Your comments are overly political, even for the policy section. But the Artemis/Moon to Mars program was initiated under the Trump Administration. The Mars portion of the Moon to Mars program is essentially a rebrand of the Journey to Mars but it was there nevertheless under the Trump Administration.

And here's proof that locking the thread is a far better activity than deleting a thread in its entirety.  I missed the original post by deadman.    We have no idea what "crime" was committed; all we see is the, well, dead man.

Apparently Simple Machines does not offer mods the option to freeze an individual post in a thread.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1