Author Topic: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA  (Read 76968 times)

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Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« on: 08/12/2014 07:47 pm »
Just announced about an hour ago.  Not sure if it was voluntary.  Being replaced by Tory Bruno.

Sorry if wrong forum.

Offline Hauerg

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #1 on: 08/12/2014 07:53 pm »
"effective immediately" does not sound like this was a longe range plan.

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Offline Jarnis

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #3 on: 08/12/2014 08:08 pm »
I wonder what the story is behind this. Abrupt "retirements" like this are usually just a more dignified way of "you're fired".
 

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #4 on: 08/12/2014 08:13 pm »
There is no transition period if one is fired or has "abrupt" retirement. 

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #5 on: 08/12/2014 08:18 pm »
Rapid Unscheduled Retirement?
From "The Rhetoric of Interstellar Flight", by Paul Gilster, March 10, 2011: We’ll build a future in space one dogged step at a time, and when asked how long humanity will struggle before reaching the stars, we’ll respond, “As long as it takes.”

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #6 on: 08/12/2014 08:39 pm »
be sure to check out @trampoline rockets latest tweet..pretty funny...
https://twitter.com/TrampolinRocket/status/499293454958997504

Offline awbyrdjr

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #7 on: 08/12/2014 08:52 pm »
There is no transition period if one is fired or has "abrupt" retirement.

While I don't have knowledge of the particulars here, most C-level executives at companies of ULA's size have some kind of severance package as part of their employment contract: payments on termination of employment that could range anywhere from a few months of continued paychecks to substantial, immediate cash payments.  However, those payments are almost always contingent on compliance with the rest of the employment contract, which will generally include a promise to cooperate with one's successors.

That gives a departed executive a big incentive to be helpful to his successor, even if he's been unceremoniously fired - if he isn't helpful, he doesn't keep getting paid while he looks for a new job.

Offline Prober

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #8 on: 08/12/2014 09:00 pm »
ULA press release:

http://www.ulalaunch.com/ula-names-tory-bruno-president-and-chief.aspx?title=ULA+Names+Tory+Bruno+President+and+Chief+Executive+Officer+

for me the only interesting thing about this retirement; is his replacement coming in from the outside.  Thought someone "internal" would move up. 
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Offline Hauerg

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #9 on: 08/12/2014 09:04 pm »
Well, LM is not THAT outside.

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #10 on: 08/12/2014 09:34 pm »
Lets hope this does not have anything to do with the legal fight about the block buy, or the RD-180's that are going(?) to be delivered in a week or so.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #11 on: 08/12/2014 10:07 pm »
ULA press release:

http://www.ulalaunch.com/ula-names-tory-bruno-president-and-chief.aspx?title=ULA+Names+Tory+Bruno+President+and+Chief+Executive+Officer+

for me the only interesting thing about this retirement; is his replacement coming in from the outside.  Thought someone "internal" would move up.

Not only that, but that Gass was from Lockheed Martin, and is being replaced by someone from Lockheed Martin.  And here we thought ULA was a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and Boeing, but Boeing is not being allowed to "take their turn" at leading ULA.

Now it could be that the original partnership agreement specified that the President & CEO would always be a Lockheed Martin person, and Boeing would fill the other C-level positions, like CFO and such.  I worked at a joint venture that did that, and so it would not be unheard of... but certainly worthy of unsubstantiated internet speculation.   ;)
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Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #12 on: 08/12/2014 10:22 pm »
I wonder if his performance during the hearing with Elon Musk had any bearing. That phrase "competition is bad" always stuck in my head... Just throwing it out there...
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Offline GalacticIntruder

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #13 on: 08/12/2014 10:26 pm »
Not too shocking, but does this new guy seriously think he can be better at marketing and PR than Musk? Maybe he is expected to better at inside-the-beltway battles.

IMO ULA has a very good chance of losing half of their market after FY 2019, so he better get with it.
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Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #14 on: 08/12/2014 10:29 pm »
I think the big deal about Mr Bruno is that he combines technical expertise for LV development from Lockheed Strategic & Missile Defense Systems with a new business model, if you look at his LinkedIN page he lists a couple of authored books on his business models:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tory-bruno/b/b3/92

So I am guessing he will come in and revamp ULA's business methods.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #15 on: 08/12/2014 10:29 pm »
Well, LM is not THAT outside.
Gass was originally from the General Dynamics Atlas side of the house.  Bruno is from the old Lockheed Trident IID5 side.  Bruno's is thus a more hard-core Pentagon missile oriented background, which I find slightly interesting.  If you're not familiar, dig a little for Trident IID5 details to learn how advanced but very successful that program has been.  Could the "customer" have asked for the change?

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/12/2014 10:34 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline rcoppola

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #16 on: 08/12/2014 10:33 pm »
This is not surprising in the least. The new CEO was brought in to... "drive innovation & affordability".

ULA under Mr. Gass has been a great success in servicing USG launch needs for the last 8 years. He is to be commended. But everyone knows that era is coming to a close. Budgets are being reduced and real domestic launch competition has risen. They need some new leadership to take these challenges head on. To take ULA in a new direction for future success. They obviously believe Mr. Bruno is in a better position to make that happen.

Knowing there is going to be some real competition coming, perhaps it went something like this:

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Offline Prober

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #17 on: 08/12/2014 10:35 pm »
Not too shocking, but does this new guy seriously think he can be better at marketing and PR than Musk? Maybe he is expected to better at inside-the-beltway battles.

IMO ULA has a very good chance of losing half of their market after FY 2019, so he better get with it.

We just don't know what's going on behind closed doors could be many issues.

I've often wondered in the future if ULA would go public.  A public sale of stock would allow shareholders of LM and Boeing to get a return for their investment at the height of the launch business.

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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #18 on: 08/12/2014 10:56 pm »
I think the big deal about Mr Bruno is that he combines technical expertise for LV development from Lockheed Strategic & Missile Defense Systems with a new business model, if you look at his LinkedIN page he lists a couple of authored books on his business models:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tory-bruno/b/b3/92

So I am guessing he will come in and revamp ULA's business methods.

What, using medieval marketing techniques?   ;)

According to his LinkedIn page:

Mr. Bruno is the author of two books that explore the medieval Knights Templar from the perspective of modern business: “Templar Organization” and “Templar Incorporated.”

Per his LinkedIn page he has a lot of accomplishments, and no doubt a smart guy.  But is he the right guy?  Does he know what to do to position ULA to respond to the immediate competition from SpaceX, and the future competition from everyone else that is trying to compete with SpaceX?  Because that is why he is replacing Gass according to Aviation Week:

http://aviationweek.com/space/ula-ceo-steps-down-face-competition

"With my intent to retire in the near term and the changing industry landscape over the next several years, the board of directors and I have agreed that the immediate appointment of my successor to begin the leadership transition is in the best interest of the company," Gass said in an Aug. 12 statement.

Keeping in mind that Elon Musk is not someone that came from a deep background in rockets, it begs the question of whether someone with a deep background in rockets provides some form of an advantage?

Going to be interesting watching this unfold.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Rocket Science

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #19 on: 08/12/2014 11:02 pm »
I wish him success in his future endeavors...
"The laws of physics are unforgiving"
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Offline john smith 19

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #20 on: 08/12/2014 11:19 pm »
Keeping in mind that Elon Musk is not someone that came from a deep background in rockets, it begs the question of whether someone with a deep background in rockets provides some form of an advantage?
Very good question.
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #21 on: 08/12/2014 11:56 pm »
I'm reminded of this: Peacetime CEO/Wartime CEO
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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #22 on: 08/13/2014 01:57 am »
Replacing King Log with King Stork?

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #23 on: 08/13/2014 03:13 am »
I've often wondered in the future if ULA would go public.  A public sale of stock would allow shareholders of LM and Boeing to get a return for their investment at the height of the launch business.

No one in their right mind would take ULA public today.  Their financial future is too cloudy, and this CEO change confirms that.
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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #24 on: 08/13/2014 07:07 am »

"Not only that, but that Gass was from Lockheed Martin, and is being replaced by someone from Lockheed Martin.  And here we thought ULA was a joint venture between Lockheed Martin and Boeing, but Boeing is not being allowed to "take their turn" at leading ULA."

Per the ULA charter master agreement, LM will always appoint the CEO, while Boeing gets COO and CFO.


Offline woods170

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #25 on: 08/13/2014 09:20 am »
I'm reminded of this: Peacetime CEO/Wartime CEO

My thoughts exactly. ULA is faced with some interesting challenges in the near future. Gass is not the person considered to be up to the job of handling those challenges. This is even more-or-less admitted by Gass himself in his statement of yesterday, although he chose his words carefully:

Quote from: Mike Gass
With my intent to retire in the near term and the changing industry landscape over the next several years, the board of directors and I have agreed that the immediate appointment of my successor to begin the leadership transition is in the best interest of the company,

His performance in the Gass vs. Musk hearing was subpar. When the SpaceX vs. USAF lawsuit on the block buy showed up he made a dumb move: when you are not actually part of a lawsuit, don't get yourself involved in any way; avoid the bad press. Nevertheless, ULA publicly expressed support for the USAF side of the case.
Next Gass overplayed his hand in the lawsuit by allowing ULA to file a motion to have the lawsuit dismissed, only to have that motion denied by the judge some time later. The judge clearly told ULA (and thus Gass) that ULA was no party in the lawsuit and should stay out. Gass should have realised this earlier, but failed to do so.
IMO those right there are some of the reasons why this is happening. Put simply: Gass blew it and now has to make way for someone else to clean up the mess.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 09:37 am by woods170 »

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #26 on: 08/13/2014 01:07 pm »

No one in their right mind would take ULA public today.  Their financial future is too cloudy, and this CEO change confirms that.

Wrong.  The CEO change is the result of a pending retirement.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #27 on: 08/13/2014 01:25 pm »
Wrong.  The CEO change is the result of a pending retirement.

If that's all it was then why did they not announce the new CEO ahead of time, instead of with immediate effect? Doing it ahead of time would have lessened the inevitable speculation / unfavourable publicity that an immediate replacement generates.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #28 on: 08/13/2014 01:53 pm »
Wrong.  The CEO change is the result of a pending retirement.

If that's all it was then why did they not announce the new CEO ahead of time, instead of with immediate effect? Doing it ahead of time would have lessened the inevitable speculation / unfavourable publicity that an immediate replacement generates.

How can it be "ahead" of time?  The retirement announcement has to come first.  Gass decides to retire and ULA decides to find a replacement and announce both at the same time.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #29 on: 08/13/2014 01:57 pm »

No one in their right mind would take ULA public today.  Their financial future is too cloudy, and this CEO change confirms that.

Wrong.  The CEO change is the result of a pending retirement.

His statement in the Aviation Week article suggests an accelerated transition.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #30 on: 08/13/2014 01:57 pm »


His performance in the Gass vs. Musk hearing was subpar. When the SpaceX vs. USAF lawsuit on the block buy showed up he made a dumb move: when you are not actually part of a lawsuit, don't get yourself involved in any way; avoid the bad press. Nevertheless, ULA publicly expressed support for the USAF side of the case.
Next Gass overplayed his hand in the lawsuit by allowing ULA to file a motion to have the lawsuit dismissed, only to have that motion denied by the judge some time later. The judge clearly told ULA (and thus Gass) that ULA was no party in the lawsuit and should stay out. Gass should have realised this earlier, but failed to do so.
IMO those right there are some of the reasons why this is happening. Put simply: Gass blew it and now has to make way for someone else to clean up the mess.

ULA (and thus Gass) is a bad assumption.  Gass reports to a BOD.


Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #31 on: 08/13/2014 02:59 pm »
How can it be "ahead" of time?  The retirement announcement has to come first.  Gass decides to retire and ULA decides to find a replacement and announce both at the same time.

And
they announced the new CEO was already in post. In my experience companies announce a future date when a new CEO (once chosen) will take up their post, unless there's a pressing reason why the previous CEO can't continue in post a day longer.

The press release doesn't say anything about an orderly handover to Tony Bruno having already taken place.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #32 on: 08/13/2014 03:21 pm »
How can it be "ahead" of time?  The retirement announcement has to come first.  Gass decides to retire and ULA decides to find a replacement and announce both at the same time.

And
they announced the new CEO was already in post. In my experience companies announce a future date when a new CEO (once chosen) will take up their post, unless there's a pressing reason why the previous CEO can't continue in post a day longer.

The press release doesn't say anything about an orderly handover to Tony Bruno having already taken place.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/michael-gass-statement-regarding-his.aspx?title=Michael+Gass+Statement+Regarding+His+Retirement

Offline Linze

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #33 on: 08/13/2014 03:48 pm »
How can it be "ahead" of time?  The retirement announcement has to come first.  Gass decides to retire and ULA decides to find a replacement and announce both at the same time.

And
they announced the new CEO was already in post. In my experience companies announce a future date when a new CEO (once chosen) will take up their post, unless there's a pressing reason why the previous CEO can't continue in post a day longer.

The press release doesn't say anything about an orderly handover to Tony Bruno having already taken place.

http://www.ulalaunch.com/michael-gass-statement-regarding-his.aspx?title=Michael+Gass+Statement+Regarding+His+Retirement

Which includes a quote directly refuting your point. 

"I have agreed that the immediate appointment of my successor"

There's can be only one CEO at a time, and there was no transition period. 

Transition periods aren't just typical, they're expected.  There was no transition period, therefore, this was highly irregular.  It gives every impression that Gass was terminated.

Why?

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #34 on: 08/13/2014 04:14 pm »

Which includes a quote directly refuting your point. 

"I have agreed that the immediate appointment of my successor"

There's can be only one CEO at a time, and there was no transition period. 

Transition periods aren't just typical, they're expected.  There was no transition period, therefore, this was highly irregular.  It gives every impression that Gass was terminated.

Why?

Huh?

What part of

"Board of Directors and I have agreed that the immediate appointment of my successor to begin the leadership transition is in the best interest of the company. ……... I will support Tory over the next several months to ensure a smooth transition."

is not a transition? And how does that refute vs enforce my point?
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 04:16 pm by Jim »

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #35 on: 08/13/2014 04:36 pm »
For all we know, this transition could have been planned for quite some time and was kept from the public. 
My God!  It's full of universes!

Offline Linze

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #36 on: 08/13/2014 04:40 pm »
For all we know, this transition could have been planned for quite some time and was kept from the public.

To replace him without a public transition period makes it appear to be a termination. 

Why do it that way if it's not a termination? 
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 04:56 pm by Linze »

Offline strangequark

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #37 on: 08/13/2014 05:08 pm »
For all we know, this transition could have been planned for quite some time and was kept from the public.

To replace him without a public transition periods makes it appear to be a termination. 

Why do it that way if it's not a termination?

There is a public transition period of several months, it just appears that the search for his successor was kept as an internal matter. He's staying with ULA through the end of the year. Contrast this with what happened recently at Microsoft, where the search was public, and then Ballmer left as soon as the new CEO was appointed. Not too many jobs where you hang out for four months after you are "fired".
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 05:12 pm by strangequark »

Offline Linze

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #38 on: 08/13/2014 05:46 pm »

There is a public transition period of several months, it just appears that the search for his successor was kept as an internal matter. He's staying with ULA through the end of the year.

Which coincidentally or not, is also the way high level corporate leaders tend to be terminated.   If they officially stay on for some period of time, it's because they want to receive their deferred compensation.

Whether he was terminated or not, it has the signatures of a termination.  It's unusual for a corporate leader in good standing to be treated this way.

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #39 on: 08/13/2014 06:04 pm »

Whether he was terminated or not, it has the signatures of a termination.  It's unusual for a corporate leader in good standing to be treated this way.

Wrong on both accounts.  He is not being "treated" in anyway that can be construed as bad.    He has been thinking about retiring and he talks to his BOD, and to take advantage of his remaining time, they appoint his successor to have a transition.

Offline Linze

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #40 on: 08/13/2014 06:09 pm »

Whether he was terminated or not, it has the signatures of a termination.  It's unusual for a corporate leader in good standing to be treated this way.

Wrong on both accounts.  He is not being "treated" in anyway that can be construed as bad.    He has been thinking about retiring and he talks to his BOD, and to take advantage of his remaining time, they appoint his successor to have a transition.

You're just wrong here Jim.  Corporate leaders in good standing aren't CEO on Tuesday and not CEO on Wednesday unless they've lost the confidence of the BoD.  He's made a lot of money for these guys over the years, even this year. 

Something changed.  Something happened.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #41 on: 08/13/2014 06:15 pm »

You're just wrong here Jim.  Corporate leaders in good standing aren't CEO on Tuesday and not CEO on Wednesday unless they've lost the confidence of the BoD.  He's made a lot of money for these guys over the years, even this year. 

Something changed.  Something happened.

Nope, just another case where you are wrong again (just like the RD-180's)

What changed is Gass decided to retire and what happened is he worked out a transition.  You don't know how long this has been in work.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 06:16 pm by Jim »

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #42 on: 08/13/2014 07:28 pm »

You're just wrong here Jim.  Corporate leaders in good standing aren't CEO on Tuesday and not CEO on Wednesday unless they've lost the confidence of the BoD.  He's made a lot of money for these guys over the years, even this year. 

Something changed.  Something happened.

Nope, just another case where you are wrong again (just like the RD-180's)

What changed is Gass decided to retire and what happened is he worked out a transition.  You don't know how long this has been in work.

You don't know the details either, Jim.  None of us knows for sure one way or another.

The circumstantial evidence suggests he was forced out.  As others have said, the common practice is to announce a transition publicly in advance of it happening.  A big part of the reason for the advanced announcement is to show that it's planned in advance.  When the announcement of a change is effective immediately, it's generally assumed that the board wasn't happy with the old leader.

Also, as others have said, a transition period after a leadership change is common as a face-saving measure when a leader is forced out.  It's extremely rare for the company to sever all ties with the old leader.  It means an amicable separation was worked out, not that the old leader wanted to go.

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #43 on: 08/13/2014 07:31 pm »
Wrong.  The CEO change is the result of a pending retirement.

If that's all it was then why did they not announce the new CEO ahead of time, instead of with immediate effect? Doing it ahead of time would have lessened the inevitable speculation / unfavourable publicity that an immediate replacement generates.

How can it be "ahead" of time?  The retirement announcement has to come first.  Gass decides to retire and ULA decides to find a replacement and announce both at the same time.

Here's how it can be ahead of time:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/press/2013/aug13/08-23announcementpr.aspx

Quote
Microsoft Corp. today announced that Chief Executive Officer Steve Ballmer has decided to retire as CEO within the next 12 months, upon the completion of a process to choose his successor. In the meantime, Ballmer will continue as CEO and will lead Microsoft

Offline veblen

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #44 on: 08/13/2014 07:51 pm »
So what? this is not a question of compliance to labour codes, there is no rancour, seems like a mutual agreement

Offline Lar

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #45 on: 08/13/2014 08:05 pm »
This discussion is sterile.

Some folks feel that the announcement wording suggests the sequence was:
   - Gass did things the board did not care for
   - Board decided Gass has to go
   - Board identifies successor
   - Announcement is made "with immediate effect"
   - Transition will take place for the rest of the year

Other folks feel the sequence is
   - Gass did things
   - Gass decided on his own he wants out, went to board
   - Board identifies successor
   - Announcement is made "with immediate effect"
   - Transition will take place for the rest of the year

Which of these is accurate? We will never know unless Gass publishes a Tell All. And maybe not even then.  Doesn't matter really.

Contrast this with a common sequence (using Bill Gates as an example)
    - Gates decides he wants to step down as CEO
    - Gates goes to board, tells them this
    - Board/Gates announce this will be happening at some point in the future
    - Search commences
    - Announcement is made that candidate found (Ballmer in this case, not too hard a search)
    - Dates for transition announced... some time goes by
    - Gates is out, Ballmer is in.

Things didn't happen that way this time. So what... unless someone has something new to add I think we're done. Further posts saying "it happened this way, no it didn't" will be trimmed.


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Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #46 on: 08/13/2014 08:42 pm »

You don't know the details either, Jim. 

You don't know that. 
I heard inklings of him wanting to retire months ago.
ULA is not a public company, so they don't have to make such announcements in advance.
« Last Edit: 08/13/2014 08:55 pm by Jim »

Offline RocketGoBoom

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #47 on: 08/13/2014 08:57 pm »
This debate is beyond silly. Please stop.

It really doesn't matter if he was forced out early or if he really really really wanted to retire.
The fact is, he is gone. Don't worry about him, he is likely a multi-millionaire and got a nice retirement package for playing ball.

Offline Lar

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #48 on: 08/13/2014 09:01 pm »
Jim (or anyone) hearing inklings ... that's actual data.  but no more speculation as to meanings or motives without actual data. Really.
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Offline Silmfeanor

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #49 on: 08/13/2014 09:02 pm »
This debate is beyond silly. Please stop.

It really doesn't matter if he was forced out early or if he really really really wanted to retire.
The fact is, he is gone. Don't worry about him, he is likely a multi-millionaire and got a nice retirement package for playing ball.

Also, something I have missed so far - thank him for his role in orbiting several high-value, national security payloads.
There, and now be done with it.  There is a place where preference of a single party in a competition becomes unsavory and leads to personal attacks.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #50 on: 08/13/2014 09:03 pm »
Honestly, on the outside we have no way of knowing what really happened. Even internally the way companies spin things the employees may only know the spin.

They higher ups made a decision based on what is best for the future of the company.

Despite this, I think the usually suspects just want to hear they sacked him, it's all his fault, he likes to take candy from babies, and is behind the sacking of Arthur T !

 

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Offline mvpel

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #51 on: 08/13/2014 10:11 pm »
CEO Bill Swanson of Raytheon announced the board's selection of his successor, Tom Kennedy, a couple of months in advance, setting a date for the end of his tenure at the end of Q1 or thereabouts. "Effective immediately" it was definitely not, and the contrast with this announcement is notable.
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Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #52 on: 08/14/2014 12:04 am »
Perhaps best to look at the new CEO against the challenges he faces in going forwards. I think this is of considerable interest.

I must credit the outgoing CEO for considerable growth and defense of the business, especially in a difficult time. This isn't a cake walk assignment for any executive, and apart from some of the nonsense remarks here, this is a very good run overall.

Keep in mind this is a forced joint venture from the biggest two aerospace firms. Both incoming/outgoing CEO have to answer to both critically, and their field of action is limited to a tiny fraction of one of ULA's launch services competitors.

Offline RocketGoBoom

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #53 on: 08/14/2014 11:32 pm »
Looking at the medium term future of ULA, is anyone really surprised that Mike Gass wanted to retire now? Seriously, the easy years are over soon. ULA is going to get very ugly in the next 2-3 years. Everyone recognizes that SpaceX is going to get some percentage of ULA's current revenue pie.

Any company that loses 30% of it's revenue likely is going to be in a situation where MASSIVE restructuring is required. That means blood is going to flow somewhere in their cost structure. The execs that have to do that are typically not very popular. Working at a company like that is not very fun at all and highly stressful. Everyone is always looking over the shoulder wondering when the next round of cuts is coming. People start stabbing you in the back in order to protect their own career (even more so that normal).

Knowing that this is what is likely going to happen at ULA in the next 2-3 years, would you want to stay around and be the guy that has to deliver the bad news and sit through all of those painful meetings? No thanks. Mike Gass decided to cash out, take his nest egg and go do some consulting and sit on the board of directors for a few other companies. He is a smart guy to get out now while his reputation is intact.
« Last Edit: 08/14/2014 11:34 pm by RocketGoBoom »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #54 on: 08/15/2014 02:32 am »
ULA has done a very good job. But looks to outsiders like they are standing still as SpaceX catches up with them. Regardless of whether this is true, it certainly is the outside perception. No doubt Gass was thinking of retiring, but no doubt still that the board wants to find a way to reverse the perception (or reality?) that they're being caught flat-footed with slow innovation.

I mean, just take Gass's statement at face value. He wants to retire and the board wants someone to advance more innovation. It's possible that Gass saw the writing on the wall, too. It was certainly a combination of those two factors (Gass himself mentioned them), who knows which one was actually more important.
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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #55 on: 08/15/2014 12:37 pm »

Knowing that this is what is likely going to happen at ULA in the next 2-3 years, would you want to stay around and be the guy that has to deliver the bad news and sit through all of those painful meetings? No thanks. Mike Gass decided to cash out, take his nest egg and go do some consulting and sit on the board of directors for a few other companies. He is a smart guy to get out now while his reputation is intact.


Unsubstantiated.   It wasn't just decided.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #56 on: 08/15/2014 01:08 pm »
I think what matters is what ULA will be doing forward looking. This thread has failed in focusing on what Tory Bruno will bring to the table and how this will change ULA going forward.

Going forward is what counts, the historical section is for focusing on the past.

So can we get the mod's to change the thread title to: Tory Bruno succeeds Mike Gass as ULA's CEO?

Edit/Lar: Did you try reporting it to the mods? I'm not seeing a report as of now... :)
« Last Edit: 08/15/2014 03:56 pm by Lar »
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Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #57 on: 08/15/2014 02:15 pm »

You don't know the details either, Jim. 

You don't know that. 
I heard inklings of him wanting to retire months ago.
ULA is not a public company, so they don't have to make such announcements in advance.

Thanks Jim!

While no one knows all the details, I get the general impressiion that ULA has been watching SpaceX and the other commercial vendors who are working on manned space flight, and I think that they are beginning to finally realise that the current way of doing things is no longer sustainable.

     I suspect that they are going to renew their reusable launch system developement as this appears to be one of the only ways that they can survive.

     I suspect that we will EVENTUALLY see a SSTO system developed, but not until either there is some major leap in spacecraft design or the developement of an air breathing hybrid rocket engine that can switch in mid flight to a liquid oxydizer system.

     The British are developing susch systems but are likely to run into teething problems even further along in their development.

     Seeing what is going to be needed in the future, Mike Gass likely figured that it was time for some new blood to take the company in a new direction.
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Offline RocketGoBoom

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #58 on: 08/15/2014 03:09 pm »

Knowing that this is what is likely going to happen at ULA in the next 2-3 years, would you want to stay around and be the guy that has to deliver the bad news and sit through all of those painful meetings? No thanks. Mike Gass decided to cash out, take his nest egg and go do some consulting and sit on the board of directors for a few other companies. He is a smart guy to get out now while his reputation is intact.

Unsubstantiated.   It wasn't just decided.

Jim, everything I wrote was written in the context of it being my opinion of what likely happened. Anyone with any reading comprehension skills would recognize that. I am completely indifferent to your adjudication on whether something in substantiated or not.

<removed the rest of my response because Chris would likely get upset at me. Jim is not worth responding to. This is pointless.>
« Last Edit: 08/15/2014 03:17 pm by RocketGoBoom »

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #59 on: 08/15/2014 03:35 pm »

Jim, everything I wrote was written in the context of it being my opinion of what likely happened. Anyone with any reading comprehension skills would recognize that. I am completely indifferent to your adjudication on whether something in substantiated or not.


Just because it is an "opinion" doesn't mean it can't be subject to critique. Your opinion has no supporting data to base it on.  Good opinions have good foundations which is not evident here  Also, opinions can be wrong, which is the case here.  That was my point. 
« Last Edit: 08/15/2014 03:40 pm by Jim »

Offline Lar

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #60 on: 08/15/2014 03:58 pm »
Everyone please be excellent to each other. I may start preflagging my opinions with "IMHO(U)"[1] or something... We don't need to go too deep into "it's just an opinion" ok???

The alternative is more vigorous trimming or even locking.

1 - In my humble[2] opinion (unsubstantiated though it may be)
2 - I'm not actually humble but I play a humble person on NSF.
« Last Edit: 08/15/2014 03:58 pm by Lar »
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #61 on: 08/15/2014 05:45 pm »
Let me see, he successfully carries the merged company, does 87 launches with just one launch that could be argued as a partial failure (AV-009), pays about 500M in profits per year, actually lowers costs, gets such a good relationship that his customer tries to use his services any chance they have, and suddenly he's supposed to get the boot because a new competitor might get some of his business? Really?

Offline .gif

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #62 on: 08/15/2014 11:05 pm »
I started this thread a few days ago.  I bumped into Gass at Galileo here in Centennial on Wednesday.  It was definitely his decision to retire.  I don't know him well enough to flat out ask him if he was forced out.  But everyone has basically indicated that he informed the board of directors of his intent to retire not too long ago.  And he was in a very good mood when I talked to him.  It's the happiest I've seen him.  Certainly didnt look like someone who just got fired.  I congratulated him on a great career.

In other news, Tory Bruno has already moved in.  Mike Gass has a new, smaller, office.

Offline rcoppola

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #63 on: 08/15/2014 11:58 pm »
I started this thread a few days ago.  I bumped into Gass at Galileo here in Centennial on Wednesday.  It was definitely his decision to retire.  I don't know him well enough to flat out ask him if he was forced out.  But everyone has basically indicated that he informed the board of directors of his intent to retire not too long ago.  And he was in a very good mood when I talked to him.  It's the happiest I've seen him.  Certainly didnt look like someone who just got fired.  I congratulated him on a great career.

In other news, Tory Bruno has already moved in.  Mike Gass has a new, smaller, office.
Well, good for him. He must be very proud every time he looks up at the sky and thinks of all the amazing hardware his company helped put there. Let alone not having to go to anymore congressional hearings. That alone is worth a thousand smiles a day.
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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #64 on: 08/16/2014 12:22 am »
reward for a job well done.. well done Mr Gass..  its not easy to build something as big as ULA.

Offline RonM

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #65 on: 08/16/2014 01:02 am »
Sounds like the typical CEO retirement. Good for Mr. Gass. I hope he enjoys his retirement.

Offline jongoff

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #66 on: 08/16/2014 05:03 am »
CEO Bill Swanson of Raytheon announced the board's selection of his successor, Tom Kennedy, a couple of months in advance, setting a date for the end of his tenure at the end of Q1 or thereabouts. "Effective immediately" it was definitely not, and the contrast with this announcement is notable.

As others have pointed out, ULA is a privately held company. I don't think you can extrapolate the behavior of a publicly traded company, where you generally have to keep your shareholders more in-the-loop on major changes like that. I honestly can't think of too many examples of leadership changes in privately held companies, which would probably be a better point of comparison.

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Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #67 on: 08/16/2014 05:27 am »
CEO Bill Swanson of Raytheon announced the board's selection of his successor, Tom Kennedy, a couple of months in advance, setting a date for the end of his tenure at the end of Q1 or thereabouts. "Effective immediately" it was definitely not, and the contrast with this announcement is notable.

As others have pointed out, ULA is a privately held company. I don't think you can extrapolate the behavior of a publicly traded company, where you generally have to keep your shareholders more in-the-loop on major changes like that. I honestly can't think of too many examples of leadership changes in privately held companies, which would probably be a better point of comparison.

That's a reasonable point that ULA isn't a public company.  On the other hand, it's a joint venture of two publicly-held companies, and what happens to it could be reasonably taken to have a material impact on the value of its two parent companies.

Also, keeping shareholders in the loop about leadership changes isn't the only reason for publicizing them in advance.  Public companies also do it to keep the confidence of employees, customers, and suppliers.

Offline Blackjax

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #68 on: 08/16/2014 06:43 pm »
I think what matters is what ULA will be doing forward looking. This thread has failed in focusing on what Tory Bruno will bring to the table and how this will change ULA going forward.

Going forward is what counts, the historical section is for focusing on the past.

So can we get the mod's to change the thread title to: Tory Bruno succeeds Mike Gass as ULA's CEO?

Edit/Lar: Did you try reporting it to the mods? I'm not seeing a report as of now... :)

I think this post hits the nail on the head.  Can we focus on trying to figure out how the ULA of the future under Bruno will behave differently from the ULA of the past under Gass (if at all)?  Jim, or anyone with good contacts at the organization, is there any word from the trenches over there about what sort of changes Bruno might bring with him?  ULA employees must be speculating and there have to be at least a few people who've had contact with Bruno to enable some insight into his personality and philosophy.

Within the company itself, was Gass popular/respected? Hated/feared?  Was he viewed as a strong leader or just simply as some guy who happened to be at the top?  I ask, because it might give an idea of how the employees feel about this change, which matters because if they feel the change was needed, it could give a boost to the organization, if they really identified strongly with the former leader, it could be a blow to some peoples confidence.

Offline Gus

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #69 on: 08/16/2014 10:20 pm »
To get a feeling of how Gass was viewed inside ULA, take a look at glassdoor.com

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/United-Launch-Alliance-Reviews-E146300.htm


Offline Lar

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #70 on: 08/16/2014 10:33 pm »
To get a feeling of how Gass was viewed inside ULA, take a look at glassdoor.com

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/United-Launch-Alliance-Reviews-E146300.htm

29% !!! not very high. Kind of a small sample set so there may be selection bias... but contrast it with SpaceX or SNC, which have CEO approval ratings over 80%
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Offline butters

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #71 on: 08/16/2014 10:52 pm »
ULA can stick to its charter and provide the EELVs until they are no longer relevant to the U.S. government, winding down a business that served its purpose for a particular phase in the history of DoD/NRO launch service procurement. Or they can chart a new path with some type of spin-off venture to compete with SpaceX. A new CEO makes sense to navigate this fork in the road.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #72 on: 08/16/2014 11:22 pm »
Can we focus on trying to figure out how the ULA of the future under Bruno will behave differently from the ULA of the past under Gass (if at all)?

Regardless the circumstances of Gass leaving, let's look at what Gass said:

"With my intent to retire in the near term and the changing industry landscape over the next several years, the Board of Directors and I have agreed that the immediate appointment of my successor to begin the leadership transition is in the best interest of the company," Gass said in an Aug. 12 statement.

So it appears that ULA's board of directors acknowledges that there is a changing industry landscape, and it is assumed by this appointment that they feel Tory Bruno has the ability to address it.

Which begs the question - how did they evaluate who had the best qualifications to address the changing industry landscape?

I'd say there are two scenarios we have to consider are possible:

1.  The Board of Directors have communicated a course of action that their respective companies have agreed upon for how ULA should address "the changing industry landscape", and the candidate they selected (i.e. Bruno) was chosen because he was the best candidate to carry out the plan.

2.  The Board of Directors did not have a specific plan in mind, and were looking for a new CEO that could bring fresh ideas to the challenge.  That would imply that Bruno won the job based on the strength of his proffered vision, and that Boeing and Lockheed Martin agreed to provide the necessary resources to carry it out.

Scenario #2 is what we all hope happened, but I think it's more likely #1 happened.

Any thoughts?
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Gus

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #73 on: 08/17/2014 12:23 am »
Tory Bruno comes from LM Space in Sunnyvale and was in charge of the Fleet Ballistic program which was a cash cow for LM being another monopoly but with the US Navy.  The pre-ULA LM attitude was that the program did not need much management because it was so self sustaining with guaranteed work from the DOD (sound familiar?). It will be interesting to see how Mr. Bruno transitions for the khaki suit customers to the blue suit customers.

As for Gass, the popular rumor was that Gass was going to be CEO for 5 years and then return to LM in some executive position.  One of the questions was when did the 5 years start?  May 2, 2005 when ULA was announced or Dec. 1, 2006 when ULA was formed.  The infamous "free agent" remark made at an all hands meeting several years after the formation apparently did not sit well with LM management.   

About one year ago, Dr. Sowers was removed from his position as VP of Human Launch services due to action of the BOD.  Another VP quit/retired/left the company and the inklings were that this was BOD directed as well. 

Gass may have decided to retire, but at 58, that seems young for someone who attained that level of executive management.  I believe he was forced out.  The press release is carefully worded to save face for both the company and Gass IMHO.  Mr. Bruno's picture sure went up quickly on the website (almost within the hour of the public announcement).  Much faster than some of the other above-mentioned moves.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #74 on: 08/17/2014 12:35 am »
Scenario #2 is what we all hope happened, but I think it's more likely #1 happened.

Why? Scenario #2 implies the board has no clue or plan for the future, while scenario #1 shows what board does have a clue and a way forward.

Honestly, I can not see why Scenario #2 is better.

That said, hopefully the board (ie. Lockheed and Boeing) will give Mr. Bruno the support he needs for ULA to grow and stay competitive. I would like to believe the Board, Boeing, and Lockheed have the insight needed to guide ULA through these interesting times.

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Offline Lar

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #75 on: 08/17/2014 12:40 am »
Scenario #2 is what we all hope happened, but I think it's more likely #1 happened.

Why? Scenario #2 implies the board has no clue or plan for the future, while scenario #1 shows what board does have a clue and a way forward.

Honestly, I can not see why Scenario #2 is better.

That said, hopefully the board (ie. Lockheed and Boeing) will give Mr. Bruno the support he needs for ULA to grow and stay competitive. I would like to believe the Board, Boeing, and Lockheed have the insight needed to guide ULA through these interesting times.

Often times the plans boards come up with are not worth the paper they are written on. I can't speak to this board but many boards are populated by professional directors, eminence grises who sit on many boards and pontificate... without a lot of expertise.

So #2 with a good plan would be great. But #1 is better than #2 with a BAD plan. IMHO.
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Offline Blackjax

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #76 on: 08/17/2014 01:08 am »
To get a feeling of how Gass was viewed inside ULA, take a look at glassdoor.com

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/United-Launch-Alliance-Reviews-E146300.htm

Wow that was an education, good find.  If what you read there from the employees is even half true, ULA seems like an organization which is not well equipped to compete. 

Here are comments from three different people just off the first page:

"Systematic and institutional fear of anything new, and that includes tech from within the last 15 years. innovation comes here to die."
"Company will not invest into new technology."
"no forward development of technology"

Seems like the CEO change might present a much needed opportunity for ULA if Bruno has the vision and ability to execute.
« Last Edit: 08/17/2014 01:10 am by Blackjax »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #77 on: 08/17/2014 01:09 am »
Often times the plans boards come up with are not worth the paper they are written on. I can't speak to this board but many boards are populated by professional directors, eminence grises who sit on many boards and pontificate... without a lot of expertise.

To date ULA has executed quite well. That would not have been possible without a competent and involved board. It is very easy to scapegoat a BOD.

Of course if you want to see how a dysfunctional board works, you should see the leaked transcripts from the Market Basket BOD. They just fired (as in fired, may the door slam you in the ... on the way out) the CEO, Arthur T.. The employees immediately went on strike along with the customers. The customers have gone so far as to tape receipts from other grocery stores on the Market Basket windows with notes saying see what you have done to me Arthur S bring back Arthur T. The employees and managers walk the picket lines during breaks. The governors of NH and MA holding daily press conferences on the situation. All this in a large non union company. They are striking over BOD firing the CEO, not pay, treatment, or prices.

Oh, leaked transcript excerpts: http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2014/08/14/behind-closed-doors-demoulas-cousins-feud-raged/0dc9gC2d7tNlk9oTH4QIuK/igraphic.html?p1=ArticleTab_IGraphic_Top
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #78 on: 08/17/2014 02:20 am »
Scenario #2 is what we all hope happened, but I think it's more likely #1 happened.

Why? Scenario #2 implies the board has no clue or plan for the future, while scenario #1 shows what board does have a clue and a way forward.

From what I can tell the Board of Directors is just two people, one each from Boeing and Lockheed Martin.  Both very senior people, but in general Board of Directors are not responsible for creating new business models.  Plus, if they did have an idea about how to improve things, then it must be very recent because otherwise Gass would have been already working on it.  No, I don't think they, the representatives from their respective companies, have agreed upon a plan and it's ready to be implemented by Mr. Bruno.

Quote
Honestly, I can not see why Scenario #2 is better.

At least with option #2 it would imply that there was a competition of ideas from different CEO candidates, and that Mr. Bruno was perceived to have the best idea and the best combination of abilities to implement it.

Option #3, which I didn't list, is that neither the Board or the new CEO have a plan.  And I know no one wants that.

Quote
That said, hopefully the board (ie. Lockheed and Boeing) will give Mr. Bruno the support he needs for ULA to grow and stay competitive. I would like to believe the Board, Boeing, and Lockheed have the insight needed to guide ULA through these interesting times.

I would too, but the reality of the situation is that if ULA is to be competitive with SpaceX then they are going to have to spend a lot of money.  And I'm not sure Boeing and Lockheed Martin are ready to do that.

Time will tell.

Oh, and I found the United Launch Alliance Master Agreement at the SEC website, and thought I'd list this:

Section 2.08 Purpose of the Company. Each of the Parties hereby acknowledges and agrees that the exclusive purposes for which the Company will be formed shall be:
 
(a) to design, develop, manufacture, sell, repair, service and support ELV Systems, and to supply related Launch Services using such ELV Systems, (i) to the U.S. Government pursuant to one or more Contracts between the Company and the U.S. Government... and sale to Commercial Customers...


The way I read that is that ULA is allowed to develop new launch systems within it's existing charter.  I know I wasn't sure about that.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline mvpel

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Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #79 on: 08/17/2014 05:25 am »
My father-in-law, a mechanical engineer, worked for a defense contractor in the salad days of bountiful multi-year, sole-source contracts. They'd fly out to Texas from Boston to sling some transparencies for the customer and fly home in time for dinner, back when air travel was still something for which you dressed smartly. You gave the customer what they asked for and didn't do anything unless they asked you to do it with a checkbook in hand.

Now, though, in a sequestered world, we have to fight like hell for every scrap of business - but from those comments it sounds like not everyone has quite caught on to that fact and still linger in a "10-year sole source" mindset - "why bother innovating, there's still years to go on the contract and innovation is out of scope."

I'm fortunate that my company's leadership recognized this looming sea change years ago, and put plans in motion to reduce reliance on domestic military business, as well as working on the culture of the company to drive collaboration, innovation, and diversity, and the empowerment to partner with our customers and give them technology leadership and guidance to help them move forward.

And the results speak for themselves - for example:

Best Practice : Lay a Missile on the Table
Quote
Raytheon Missile Systems Company (RMSC) developed the Lay a Missile on the Table (LAMOTT) process for the rapid development of a functional missile, prior to the Engineering and Manufacturing Development phase of the DOD acquisition process. The goal was to make a first missile with a functional guidance system in less than a year. This would produce a 300% decrease in development cycle time for this type of product technology and design maturity.

"Skin in the game," as it were. Somehow I don't see a company which elicits comments like "innovation comes here to die" doing something like that.

Granted, we've still got a few VAX systems out there chugging away, so it's not a universal principle, but innovations are being developed on an ongoing basis to make it easier and cheaper for those poor souls to finally replace them.

I'll be watching with interest to see which way ULA decides to go.

(Required disclaimer: these are my own views and opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.)
« Last Edit: 08/17/2014 05:27 am by mvpel »
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Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #80 on: 08/17/2014 02:42 pm »

Often times the plans boards come up with are not worth the paper they are written on. I can't speak to this board but many boards are populated by professional directors, eminence grises who sit on many boards and pontificate... without a lot of expertise.



ULA BOD isn't a corporate BOD and isn't populated by professional directors.  It is made up of VP's from LM and Boeing, with mostly the ones that are in charge of space systems.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #81 on: 08/17/2014 02:44 pm »


"Systematic and institutional fear of anything new, and that includes tech from within the last 15 years. innovation comes here to die."
"Company will not invest into new technology."
"no forward development of technology"

Seems like the CEO change might present a much needed opportunity for ULA if Bruno has the vision and ability to execute.

It doesn't matter what the CEO's vision is, the BOD determines the direction of ULA by setting the budget it has operate with.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #82 on: 08/17/2014 03:51 pm »


"Systematic and institutional fear of anything new, and that includes tech from within the last 15 years. innovation comes here to die."
"Company will not invest into new technology."
"no forward development of technology"

Seems like the CEO change might present a much needed opportunity for ULA if Bruno has the vision and ability to execute.

It doesn't matter what the CEO's vision is, the BOD determines the direction of ULA by setting the budget it has operate with.

You are assuming that the funding available to ULA does not change, and that is supposition.  For all we know they brought in Bruno because he proffered a vision of where he would take ULA, and Boeing and Lockheed Martin bought into that vision and will provide the necessary funding to execute it.

I know I'm hoping that's what happened.  Because if Bruno was brought in to continue business as usual, or was told to execute a top-down corporate directive for change, then I don't think ULA will be in a position to compete well with SpaceX.

And I for one don't want to see one monopoly substituted for another, regardless how benign it might be.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline Mader Levap

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #83 on: 08/17/2014 04:59 pm »
Many people, including Jim, pointed out that ULA is banned from doing anything beyond tinkering with current Delta and Atlas rockets. So, if nothing changes, ULA at best is fated to be milked all its worth as long as possible and then disbanded.

If their parents (LH and Boeing) seriously think about competing with SpaceX, shouldn't they either develop new rockets by themself* or create new company like ULA, only with goal to develop new at least partially reusable LV?

* Yes, I know, competing on merits is unheard of and crazy talk.
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Offline Blackjax

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #84 on: 08/17/2014 05:14 pm »


"Systematic and institutional fear of anything new, and that includes tech from within the last 15 years. innovation comes here to die."
"Company will not invest into new technology."
"no forward development of technology"

Seems like the CEO change might present a much needed opportunity for ULA if Bruno has the vision and ability to execute.

It doesn't matter what the CEO's vision is, the BOD determines the direction of ULA by setting the budget it has operate with.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, what I meant to communicate would be better expressed by:

"Seems like the CEO change might present a much needed opportunity for ULA if Bruno has the vision and ability to execute a change in corporate culture and practices which enable it to better respond to the challenges it faces in the future."

I wasn't referring to 'vision' in the sense I think you were responding to.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #85 on: 08/17/2014 07:54 pm »
If their parents (LH and Boeing) seriously think about competing with SpaceX, shouldn't they either develop new rockets by themself* or create new company like ULA, only with goal to develop new at least partially reusable LV?
ULA doesn't need to develop new rockets.  If anything, it needs one less rocket.  It has the tools it needs to compete for and, I believe, to win most of the key DoD launch contracts.  Re-usability has yet to be demonstrated, and even when/if it is, it will still have a long way to go to prove financially viable.

 - Ed kyle

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #86 on: 08/17/2014 08:33 pm »
Many people, including Jim, pointed out that ULA is banned from doing anything beyond tinkering with current Delta and Atlas rockets.

That's what I used to think, but then I looked at the ULA "JOINT VENTURE MASTER AGREEMENT" filed with the SEC and it states:

Section 2.08 Purpose of the Company. Each of the Parties hereby acknowledges and agrees that the exclusive purposes for which the Company will be formed shall be:
 
(a) to design, develop, manufacture, sell, repair, service and support ELV Systems, and to supply related Launch Services using such ELV Systems, (i) to the U.S. Government pursuant to one or more Contracts between the Company and the U.S. Government,... Commercial Customers,...


Now maybe the definition of the term "ELV" would provide some restrictions, but otherwise the only restrictions I see is the one where ULA can't market or sell to anyone except through Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

Any other interpretations about whether the agreement allows ULA to design, develop and build new families of launchers?

Quote
So, if nothing changes, ULA at best is fated to be milked all its worth as long as possible and then disbanded.

Until we hear any specific plans to compete from the new CEO, this is still a possible direction ULA's parents are pursuing.  I hope not, but it could be.

Quote
If their parents (LH and Boeing) seriously think about competing with SpaceX, shouldn't they either develop new rockets by themself* or create new company like ULA, only with goal to develop new at least partially reusable LV?

I didn't look for it, but I would imagine this is banned by the partnership agreement.
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #87 on: 08/17/2014 09:15 pm »
According to his LinkedIn page:

Mr. Bruno is the author of two books that explore the medieval Knights Templar from the perspective of modern business: “Templar Organization” and “Templar Incorporated.”

It was on the ULA page as well.  And. I picked up a copy of each yesterday on mississippi.com. (or whatever that river is)  The titles fit right into my "Spartacus Conjecture".  Pretty shallow analysis that, but hey, I like the guy already.

But anyhow, about Mr. Gass.  Did he mention that he wanted to spend more time with his family?  'Cause they say that a lot...
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #88 on: 08/18/2014 01:29 am »

Now maybe the definition of the term "ELV" would provide some restrictions,

Some?  It is very restrictive, it means no RLV.

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #89 on: 08/18/2014 02:12 am »

Now maybe the definition of the term "ELV" would provide some restrictions,

Some?  It is very restrictive, it means no RLV.

Huh...

     Under that contract, ULA is pretty much hosed when it comes to possible transition to reusables.  By contract, they aren't even allowed to pursue RLV development unless either NASA modifies the terms of their contracts, (highly unlikely at this late stage) or if NASA puts out a new contract for bid for reusable launch systems.  How SpaceX has managed to be able to develop and implement their reusability systems so far is kind of interesting, and illustrate a more flexible contract than is typical of NASA.
My God!  It's full of universes!

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #90 on: 08/18/2014 02:38 am »


Huh...

     Under that contract, ULA is pretty much hosed when it comes to possible transition to reusables.  By contract, they aren't even allowed to pursue RLV development unless either NASA modifies the terms of their contracts, (highly unlikely at this late stage) or if NASA puts out a new contract for bid for reusable launch systems.  How SpaceX has managed to be able to develop and implement their reusability systems so far is kind of interesting, and illustrate a more flexible contract than is typical of NASA.

Huh? 

ULA has no such contract with NASA and it isn't a contract that is limiting them.   It is ULA's owners, Boeing and Lockheed Martin that put the restrictions on ULA via ULA's charter.  ULA only exists to operate the Delta and Atlas fleets.  If Boeing and/or Lockheed Martin want to develop RLV's, they will do it themselves and not have to share the revenues (if any) with each other.

Spacex has no such contract with NASA either.  Spacex is developing its RLV hardware on its own dime.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #91 on: 08/18/2014 06:13 am »
Re-usability has yet to be demonstrated, and even when/if it is, it will still have a long way to go to prove financially viable.

Trouble is developing an RLV isn't exactly quick either. So if re-usability is demonstrated and financially viable then waiting for that to be achieved before starting development would put a company years behind.

Of course as ULA isn't constituted to develop an RLV it has to hope a commercially successful RLV isn't achieved. My guess is that Boeing & LM aren't interested in re-constituting ULA so Bruno will be "limited" to ELVs.


Offline woods170

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #92 on: 08/18/2014 07:09 am »


Huh...

     Under that contract, ULA is pretty much hosed when it comes to possible transition to reusables.  By contract, they aren't even allowed to pursue RLV development unless either NASA modifies the terms of their contracts, (highly unlikely at this late stage) or if NASA puts out a new contract for bid for reusable launch systems.  How SpaceX has managed to be able to develop and implement their reusability systems so far is kind of interesting, and illustrate a more flexible contract than is typical of NASA.

Huh? 

ULA has no such contract with NASA and it isn't a contract that is limiting them.   It is ULA's owners, Boeing and Lockheed Martin that put the restrictions on ULA via ULA's charter.  ULA only exists to operate the Delta and Atlas fleets.  If Boeing and/or Lockheed Martin want to develop RLV's, they will do it themselves and not have to share the revenues (if any) with each other.

Spacex has no such contract with NASA either.  Spacex is developing its RLV hardware on its own dime.

Jim, correct me if I'm wrong but ULA was formed in the time that the only RLV happened to be the space shuttle.
EELV's go back to the years after Challenger and contain that second 'E' simply to distinguish from RLV's (= STS).
What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV?
Or does the USAF have a say in this as well?

Offline ChrisWilson68

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #93 on: 08/18/2014 08:42 am »
If their parents (LH and Boeing) seriously think about competing with SpaceX, shouldn't they either develop new rockets by themself* or create new company like ULA, only with goal to develop new at least partially reusable LV?
ULA doesn't need to develop new rockets.  If anything, it needs one less rocket.  It has the tools it needs to compete for and, I believe, to win most of the key DoD launch contracts.  Re-usability has yet to be demonstrated, and even when/if it is, it will still have a long way to go to prove financially viable.

And TV is just a passing fad, radio is the proven money-maker.  And digital cameras won't replace film any time soon.  And it will be a long time before digital music makes the CD obsolete.  And so on and so on.

The thing about disruptive change is that by the time it's been 100% proven, it's far too late for incumbents to respond to it.  The only way they can survive is to see it coming long before it's actually practical.

For reusable rocket technology, the time of "long before it's actually practical" has passed.  We're rapidly approaching the time when it's 100% proven.

Offline Mader Levap

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #94 on: 08/18/2014 09:18 am »
ULA doesn't need to develop new rockets.  If anything, it needs one less rocket.
It needs one rocket indeed. RLV, to be exact. Of course, once Boeing/LH has one with proven track record, expendables would be discontinued.

Re-usability has yet to be demonstrated, and even when/if it is, it will still have a long way to go to prove financially viable.
This kind of excercise in denial is what will make ULA irrevelant in decade. Ariane at least see danger, even if their reaction is barely better (running around like headless chicken and complaining like, uhm, not very smart person).

I think waiting until SpaceX actually proves it 100% is rather... unwise. But sure, sing "la-la, nothing is happening". This kind of reaction from incumbents is best present that SpaceX could get.
Be successful.  Then tell the haters to (BLEEP) off. - deruch
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #95 on: 08/18/2014 09:59 am »
Thanks for the glassdoor.com review.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/United-Launch-Alliance-Reviews-E146300.htm

Pros:
 Most staff are on OK salaries and work sensible hours, unlike SpaceX.
Great rockets.

Cons:
 Layoffs seem common. (SpaceX is not immune from this as we have just seen.)
Top heavy with entrenched management.
No direction and no money for innovation. (SpaceX has a direction/mission "Occupy Mars")
Future looks bleak with the appearance of SpaceX.

A commitment to developing a new LV to compete with SpaceX would definitely make a difference to staff moral.

Unlike Ariane,  I've not read or ever heard ULA knock SpaceX re-usability plans. That makes me think they do take the potential of re-usability seriously. It would be great if they do decide to develop a new domestic RLV if not they may end up becoming another Kodak.
 

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #96 on: 08/18/2014 11:19 am »
Wow. I don't have much experience with glassdoor.com - do people who post tend to be more those with grievances?

It's just that reading the posts for ULA, if they're anywhere near the truth then the new CEO has really got his work cut-out.

I'm slightly sceptical about the posts because ULA have such a good launch record, but the negatives do seem to be about management, lack of innovation etc so I guess that doesn't preclude continuing to perform well with the existing rockects.

Offline Oli

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #97 on: 08/18/2014 11:19 am »
Re-usability has yet to be demonstrated, and even when/if it is, it will still have a long way to go to prove financially viable.

Trouble is developing an RLV isn't exactly quick either. So if re-usability is demonstrated and financially viable then waiting for that to be achieved before starting development would put a company years behind.

From what we know reusability will be marginally cheaper at best. Even if SpaceX has slightly lower costs, it is unlikely going to price ULA out the market. In fact even if it tried it could not, since the US government wants 2 rockets. The danger for ULA is to lose market share.

If reusability turns out to be drastically cheaper and opens up new markets, Boeing and Lockheed have the resources to enter the market at a later point.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2014 12:18 pm by Oli »

Offline go4mars

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #98 on: 08/18/2014 01:04 pm »
According to his LinkedIn page:

Mr. Bruno is the author of two books that explore the medieval Knights Templar from the perspective of modern business: “Templar Organization” and “Templar Incorporated.”

It was on the ULA page as well.  And. I picked up a copy of each yesterday...
I look forward to your summary!
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Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #99 on: 08/18/2014 01:49 pm »
And TV is just a passing fad, radio is the proven money-maker.  And digital cameras won't replace film any time soon.  And it will be a long time before digital music makes the CD obsolete.  And so on and so on.
 

Could you repeat that?  I had the eight track going too loud.

Reusability is.  Period.

It's not as easy as making a car, but ease is not the issue.  Capital is the issue, and there is plenty of capital to be working the problem of reusability, as is being demonstrated in MacGregor every couple of months.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #100 on: 08/18/2014 01:56 pm »

Jim, correct me if I'm wrong but ULA was formed in the time that the only RLV happened to be the space shuttle.
EELV's go back to the years after Challenger and contain that second 'E' simply to distinguish from RLV's (= STS).
What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV?
Or does the USAF have a say in this as well?

EELV is a specific set of launch vehicles.  They are Delta IV and Atlas V, which were developed to meet the requirements of the USAF's EELV contract. The second "E" denoted that they were to evolve from the existing ELV's: Titan IV, Delta II and Atlas II and hardware.   ULA was created just to operate the two vehicle families for Boeing and LM to meet USG needs.   Hence ULA is not the all encompassing rocket maker for LM and Boeing (LM still has Athena and Boeing is still involved with Sealaunch and Boeing has a lot to do with SLS).    "What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV" is the parent companies themselves.  It is highly unlikely that either of them would want to share in the development of new vehicles, when they could get all the money themselves




There can only be the two EELV's (Delta IV and Atlas V) but there can be other rockets in the EELV  class (Falcon 9).

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #101 on: 08/18/2014 02:07 pm »
"What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV" is the parent companies themselves.  It is highly unlikely that either of them would want to share in the development of new vehicles, when they could get all the money themselves

Maybe.  But if they did that then they'd be competing against themselves in the form of ULA.  So either they compete against themselves, which is an interesting business strategy, or they pull out of ULA and go back to competing on the open market with a brand new launcher that likely is still in development (and not approved for government launches, the most lucrative).

I don't see either of those options as compelling, certainly not in the near term.  Which is why creating a new launcher through ULA looks like the most likely answer for both Boeing and Lockheed Martin - assuming they want to try and compete with SpaceX.  Especially given the reason why ULA was formed in the first place.
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #102 on: 08/18/2014 02:29 pm »
For reusable rocket technology, the time of "long before it's actually practical" has passed.  We're rapidly approaching the time when it's 100% proven.
For a first stage if it works, on LEO missions, which represents a minority of mission types.  And when used there will be a substantial payload penalty.

Falcon 9 v1.1 won't do fly backs on GTO missions, as we've already seen.  The second stage won't be reused on any mission.  And it remains to be seen what shape those first stages will be in when they land.

The new CEO is a sign that ULA is going to change, in part to respond to the SpaceX challenge.  The company can do several things to attack costs, but reusability isn't one of them.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/18/2014 02:36 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #103 on: 08/18/2014 02:44 pm »
"What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV" is the parent companies themselves.  It is highly unlikely that either of them would want to share in the development of new vehicles, when they could get all the money themselves

Maybe.  But if they did that then they'd be competing against themselves in the form of ULA.  So either they compete against themselves, which is an interesting business strategy, or they pull out of ULA and go back to competing on the open market with a brand new launcher that likely is still in development (and not approved for government launches, the most lucrative).

I don't see either of those options as compelling, certainly not in the near term.  Which is why creating a new launcher through ULA looks like the most likely answer for both Boeing and Lockheed Martin - assuming they want to try and compete with SpaceX.  Especially given the reason why ULA was formed in the first place.

Huh?

You still don't get it.  ULA only exists for Delta IV and Atlas V and nothing else.  If Boeing or LM wants to build a new launcher (RLV, they wouldn't do a new ELV),  they would go it alone and not have to share in the revenue.  If they were to go to create a new launcher through ULA: one, it is not in the charter and 2, the FTC would have to look at it again.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2014 02:46 pm by Jim »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #104 on: 08/18/2014 03:40 pm »
For reusable rocket technology, the time of "long before it's actually practical" has passed.  We're rapidly approaching the time when it's 100% proven.
For a first stage if it works, on LEO missions, which represents a minority of mission types.  And when used there will be a substantial payload penalty.

Falcon 9 v1.1 won't do fly backs on GTO missions, as we've already seen.  The second stage won't be reused on any mission.  And it remains to be seen what shape those first stages will be in when they land.

The new CEO is a sign that ULA is going to change, in part to respond to the SpaceX challenge.  The company can do several things to attack costs, but reusability isn't one of them.

 - Ed Kyle
Not to take SpaceX's side, but not all GTO missions need max vehicle payload. Especially with the advent of all electric (propulsion) satellites. Also, if they do build a high energy upper stage, you are talking an estimated 40% increase in GTO throw weight. So, yes if SpaceX gets stage recovery working economically, they could be using it on future missions and maybe reduced operational costs.

SpaceX's gamble is they will get re-usability working in an affordable manner. ULA is gambling they won't, and need to bring ULA's costs in line with an expendable Falcon 9 v1.1. If you have been listening to ULA, they feel they can do that.

So what approach will Mr. Bruno take to answer the challenge?

Reduced overhead?
Steamlined work/pad flow?
Go to a single pad on each coast?
Down select to a single design?
Go after new stages that cost less to make than current stages? The common upper stage with a low cost RL-10 replacement comes to mind.

I wonder what the tea leaves will show.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #105 on: 08/18/2014 03:49 pm »

1.  Reduced overhead?
2.  Steamlined work/pad flow?
3.  Go to a single pad on each coast?
4.  Down select to a single design?
5.  Go after new stages that cost less to make than current stages? The common upper stage with a low cost RL-10 replacement comes to mind.

I wonder what the tea leaves will show.

1.  Been in work (there are yearly layoffs)
2.  Been in work awhile
3.  only if #4 happens
4.  Doubtful
4.  Elements are in work, common avionics, common payload adapters, common processes, common upper stage engine, etc common upper stage and fairings are down the line

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #106 on: 08/18/2014 04:42 pm »
4.  Elements are in work, common avionics, common payload adapters, common processes, common upper stage engine, etc common upper stage and fairings are down the line
This highlights what is likely an area ripe for cost reduction.  It involves reducing the number of subcontractors, which has the same effect as employee reduction.  I see this as key for ULA, since they will have to compete with a company that builds its own propulsion, fairings, etc..  SpaceX and ULA have about the same number of employees, but that doesn't include the subcontractors.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/18/2014 04:43 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Jarnis

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #107 on: 08/18/2014 06:50 pm »
I thought the main point of Falcon Heavy was to get good-sized GTO sats up while reusing the three cores?

(Center core being the iffy part, possibly requiring barge-related antics and upper stage obviously being expendable)

Offline A12

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #108 on: 08/18/2014 07:02 pm »
Wow. I don't have much experience with glassdoor.com - do people who post tend to be more those with grievances?

It's just that reading the posts for ULA, if they're anywhere near the truth then the new CEO has really got his work cut-out.


I wouldn't trust so much this kind of sites,this one in particular. Negative judgments are what usually prevails; moreover, I took a look to the posts related to few company  that I know (albeit not in aerospace business) and I found them pretty unfounded, to say the least.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #109 on: 08/18/2014 07:05 pm »
Wow. I don't have much experience with glassdoor.com - do people who post tend to be more those with grievances?

It's just that reading the posts for ULA, if they're anywhere near the truth then the new CEO has really got his work cut-out.


I wouldn't trust so much this kind of sites,this one in particular. Negative judgments are what usually prevails; moreover, I took a look to the posts related to few company  that I know (albeit not in aerospace business) and I found them pretty unfounded, to say the least.

Yes, Glassdoor.com probably presents on average a more negative view than what most employees hols. The most negative ones will be the ones making the most noise. That applies to ULA, SpaceX, and all others.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #110 on: 08/18/2014 07:09 pm »
I thought the main point of Falcon Heavy was to get good-sized GTO sats up while reusing the three cores?
(Center core being the iffy part, possibly requiring barge-related antics and upper stage obviously being expendable)
Yes, but the GTO payload for a reusable Falcon Heavy would only be a bit better than the GTO payload of an expendable Falcon 9 v1.1.  So they'll have to recover that center core along with the boosters, and be able to re-fly all of them, to make it worthwhile.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/19/2014 12:07 am by edkyle99 »

Offline LouScheffer

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #111 on: 08/19/2014 01:52 am »
  If Boeing or LM wants to build a new launcher (RLV, they wouldn't do a new ELV),  they would go it alone and not have to share in the revenue.
In lots of other capital intensive fields, joint ventures are common.  It's true you get only a fraction of the revenue, but you also spend only a fraction of the capital, and take only a fraction of the risk if it fails.  And you get to know all the details, useful if you want to go it alone later.
Quote
If they were to go to create a new launcher through ULA: one, it is not in the charter and 2, the FTC would have to look at it again.
The charter is their own business and can be amended if desired.  The FTC, now that SpaceX is a going concern, might actually feel that a joint venture would increase, not decrease, competition in the long run.

Offline Lobo

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #112 on: 08/19/2014 04:52 pm »
"What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV" is the parent companies themselves.  It is highly unlikely that either of them would want to share in the development of new vehicles, when they could get all the money themselves

Maybe.  But if they did that then they'd be competing against themselves in the form of ULA.  So either they compete against themselves, which is an interesting business strategy, or they pull out of ULA and go back to competing on the open market with a brand new launcher that likely is still in development (and not approved for government launches, the most lucrative).

I don't see either of those options as compelling, certainly not in the near term.  Which is why creating a new launcher through ULA looks like the most likely answer for both Boeing and Lockheed Martin - assuming they want to try and compete with SpaceX.  Especially given the reason why ULA was formed in the first place.

They'd just call it something like "Atlas V Phase 2" or "Delta IV Phase 2" so that although partially or mostly a new vehicle, it doesn't violate the founding tenant of ULA.  Which I believe is why the conceptual 5m wide Atlas V Phase 2, or hte 8m wide Atlas V Phase 3B wasn't ever referred to as "Atlas 6" or something.  They always retained the "Atlas V" name, even though they would have been quite different vehicles from Atlas V.

But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to downselect to just one EELV...probably Atlas V...and streamline their operation to get cost down.  That would include the closing of the two pads of the EELV that is retired, and streamling to just one LV in Decatur.  Perhaps develop the 5m common Centaur upper stage.  It wouldn't be used for Delta as Delta IV would be retired, but on the Atlas V-551/2 LV, it would be able to cover D4H class payloads for the DoD/USAF, and be quite a bit cheaper.  I think ULA would get the most bang for their buck in lowering costs going that way rather than trying to pursure reusability.

Although, if they were to keep and streamline on just Atlas V, they could revisit the Mid Air Recover of the RD-180 engine research they did awhile back.  That could -perhaps- lower costs more, as well as (perhaps as importantly) help create buffer between ULA and possible future Russian engine supply complications if they can reuse each RD-180 they have in stock multiple times.  Then a delay of several months or a few years in supply of new engines wouldn't impact the launch manifest.  They'd just rotate through their stock fleet of engines and reuse them.
Not sure if that would violate any rule about ULA having a "reusable" LV vs. an expendable one.  The LV is still expendable, just has a reusable booster engine.  So not sure how that would play out.
« Last Edit: 08/19/2014 05:07 pm by Lobo »

Offline Lobo

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #113 on: 08/19/2014 05:11 pm »
I thought the main point of Falcon Heavy was to get good-sized GTO sats up while reusing the three cores?
(Center core being the iffy part, possibly requiring barge-related antics and upper stage obviously being expendable)
Yes, but the GTO payload for a reusable Falcon Heavy would only be a bit better than the GTO payload of an expendable Falcon 9 v1.1.  So they'll have to recover that center core along with the boosters, and be able to re-fly all of them, to make it worthwhile.

 - Ed Kyle

Yes, but that's a version of FH that would have all 3 cores RTLS, and not have to have any downrange recovery, right?  In which case it should be a simple task to recover and reuse all the cores, vs. the complications of recovering one core down range to get to the next performance class of FH.


Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #114 on: 08/19/2014 05:57 pm »
Many people, including Jim, pointed out that ULA is banned from doing anything beyond tinkering with current Delta and Atlas rockets. So, if nothing changes, ULA at best is fated to be milked all its worth as long as possible and then disbanded.

If their parents (LH and Boeing) seriously think about competing with SpaceX, shouldn't they either develop new rockets by themself* or create new company like ULA, only with goal to develop new at least partially reusable LV?

* Yes, I know, competing on merits is unheard of and crazy talk.

How compatible are Boeing and LM?  Would they engage in another joint venture after their experience with ULA, or go separate ways? Seems that strong endorsements of each other are rare between parent companies, so I'd suspect they'd go back to head-to-head competition as before ULA.  What would the launch market look like with Boeing and LM back in the fray while ULA simply flies out the block buy?
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #115 on: 08/19/2014 06:51 pm »
....<snip> .....
But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to down select to just one EELV...probably Atlas V...and streamline their operation to get cost down.
.... <snip> ....

While I agree with most of what you said, due to the recent RD-180 politics, I strongly suspect that the only way that could happen is if they found an alternative domestic Kero-LOX engine and modified the current Vandenberg Delta Heavy pad to support it. Then add in a low cost higher thrust RL-10 replacement.
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Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #116 on: 08/19/2014 08:54 pm »
....<snip> .....
But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to down select to just one EELV...probably Atlas V...and streamline their operation to get cost down.
.... <snip> ....

While I agree with most of what you said, due to the recent RD-180 politics, I strongly suspect that the only way that could happen is if they found an alternative domestic Kero-LOX engine and modified the current Vandenberg Delta Heavy pad to support it. Then add in a low cost higher thrust RL-10 replacement.

If ULA down-selects to one vehicle, doesn't that end the Boeing/LM joint venture?
At what point in such a down-select would LM have to buy Boeing out or divest itself of Boeing assets/legacy engineers/etc. -- in other words, disband ULA because the 'alliance' part is history?
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Offline Lars_J

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #117 on: 08/19/2014 09:02 pm »
....<snip> .....
But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to down select to just one EELV...probably Atlas V...and streamline their operation to get cost down.
.... <snip> ....

While I agree with most of what you said, due to the recent RD-180 politics, I strongly suspect that the only way that could happen is if they found an alternative domestic Kero-LOX engine and modified the current Vandenberg Delta Heavy pad to support it. Then add in a low cost higher thrust RL-10 replacement.

If ULA down-selects to one vehicle, doesn't that end the Boeing/LM joint venture?
At what point in such a down-select would LM have to buy Boeing out or divest itself of Boeing assets/legacy engineers/etc. -- in other words, disband ULA because the 'alliance' part is history?

Why would it? Beoing doesn't own Delta IV. Lockheed Martin doesn't own Atlas V. ULA does. Even if they down-select internally, Boeing and LM can still share profits.

Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #118 on: 08/19/2014 09:22 pm »
....<snip> .....
But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to down select to just one EELV...probably Atlas V...and streamline their operation to get cost down.
.... <snip> ....

While I agree with most of what you said, due to the recent RD-180 politics, I strongly suspect that the only way that could happen is if they found an alternative domestic Kero-LOX engine and modified the current Vandenberg Delta Heavy pad to support it. Then add in a low cost higher thrust RL-10 replacement.

If ULA down-selects to one vehicle, doesn't that end the Boeing/LM joint venture?
At what point in such a down-select would LM have to buy Boeing out or divest itself of Boeing assets/legacy engineers/etc. -- in other words, disband ULA because the 'alliance' part is history?

Why would it? Beoing doesn't own Delta IV. Lockheed Martin doesn't own Atlas V. ULA does. Even if they down-select internally, Boeing and LM can still share profits.

But would they?  Down-select means significant RIFs to gain benefits of single line... Atlas V expertise would be retained, Delta expertise let go, I would think.  Why would LM give away half of the cash in a venture where all the payloads launched are on Atlas Vs?  Would it make sense for Boeing to honor a non-compete clause?  I don't think ULA exists without the Alliance part. (And the United part, for that matter.)

These are the (turbulent) waters that Mr. Bruno will have to navigate if down-select is the innovation and competition strategy.
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Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #119 on: 08/19/2014 09:24 pm »
"What keeps the parent companies (Boeing and Lockmart) from dropping the 'E' from the acronym ELV" is the parent companies themselves.  It is highly unlikely that either of them would want to share in the development of new vehicles, when they could get all the money themselves

Maybe.  But if they did that then they'd be competing against themselves in the form of ULA.  So either they compete against themselves, which is an interesting business strategy, or they pull out of ULA and go back to competing on the open market with a brand new launcher that likely is still in development (and not approved for government launches, the most lucrative).

I don't see either of those options as compelling, certainly not in the near term.  Which is why creating a new launcher through ULA looks like the most likely answer for both Boeing and Lockheed Martin - assuming they want to try and compete with SpaceX.  Especially given the reason why ULA was formed in the first place.

They'd just call it something like "Atlas V Phase 2" or "Delta IV Phase 2" so that although partially or mostly a new vehicle, it doesn't violate the founding tenant of ULA.

Building any launcher that competes with Atlas V and Delta IV would violate, at least in spirit if not legal agreement, the partnership Boeing and Lockheed Martin have.  Regardless the name or what pieces and parts it's made of.

Quote
But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to downselect to just one EELV...probably Atlas V

Let's remember why we're all having this conversation:

1.  SpaceX has developed a launch architecture that looks like it will be significantly less expensive on a permanent basis (i.e. they are not just low bidding to gain marketshare), and ULA is forecasting that it will inevitably lose marketshare of it's largest customer while also not being able to make up that loss in marketshare (and revenue) with another customer segment.

2.  The political situation with Russia, who makes the RD-180 engine for the Atlas V, has caused ULA and it's customers to question the long-term availability of the Atlas V.

ULA could address the RD-180 situation by down-selecting to Delta IV, but that is supposedly more expensive than the Atlas V, so that doesn't solve the competitive price aspect.  ULA could down-select to Atlas V, but that doesn't solve the questions surrounding availability of the RD-180 engine, and could make matters worse.

There are no easy answers.

Quote
...and streamline their operation to get cost down.

Companies are always looking for ways to lower costs, and ULA has been very public about their efforts for years.  But once you have designed all your rocket hardware and the hardware and systems that support it, it's hard to find a lot of ways to remove costs.  Plus the current rocket hardware can't become reusable, so there is a limit to what ULA can do with it's current launcher family to compete with SpaceX if they perfect any form of reusability.

Quote
Although, if they were to keep and streamline on just Atlas V, they could revisit the Mid Air Recover of the RD-180 engine research they did awhile back.  That could -perhaps- lower costs more...

There are a lot of things ULA could do, but the question is whether Boeing and Lockheed Martin will FUND them to do that.  At this point we'll have to wait and see what the new CEO does.
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Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #120 on: 08/19/2014 09:27 pm »

Why would it? Beoing doesn't own Delta IV. Lockheed Martin doesn't own Atlas V. ULA does. Even if they down-select internally, Boeing and LM can still share profits.

No, Boeing and LM still own the rights to their own vehicles.

Offline Lars_J

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #121 on: 08/19/2014 09:31 pm »

Why would it? Beoing doesn't own Delta IV. Lockheed Martin doesn't own Atlas V. ULA does. Even if they down-select internally, Boeing and LM can still share profits.

No, Boeing and LM still own the rights to their own vehicles.

Sigh... But that goes against what you have been saying for a long time. So ULA just operates them? Make up your mind.

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #122 on: 08/19/2014 09:35 pm »

Sigh... But that goes against what you have been saying for a long time. So ULA just operates them? Make up your mind.

No, I have always said that ULA operates them.   Boeing and LM don't do any hands on work or engineering but they each own the intellectual property.

It is like a song writer in band with a certain song.  The band reforms with another band but without the songwriter.  The new band still plays the song, and give paid for performing it, but it is still the song writer's song and he will still get royalties.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2014 12:13 am by Jim »

Offline baldusi

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #123 on: 08/19/2014 10:11 pm »


Sigh... But that goes against what you have been saying for a long time. So ULA just operates them? Make up your mind.

No, you need to have better reading comprehension. I have always said that ULA operates them.   Boeing and LM don't do any hands on work or engineering but they each own the intellectual property.
What about things like Common Avionics? Or if they ever implement Common Upper stage?

Offline robertross

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #124 on: 08/19/2014 10:14 pm »
Okay, we're veering here guys...

Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #125 on: 08/19/2014 10:47 pm »
It seems that the options available to Mr. Bruno for innovation and competition involve existential questions for ULA -- certainly options are constrained by the joint venture agreement in ways that make a challenging job quite a bit more difficult.  Can anyone suggest ways that the joint venture structure helps solve his problem?
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Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #126 on: 08/20/2014 12:13 am »

What about things like Common Avionics? Or if they ever implement Common Upper stage?

That will be ULA doing it.

Offline Lobo

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #127 on: 08/20/2014 04:26 pm »
....<snip> .....
But, ultimately, I don't think there's any need for ULA to develop any new vehicle.  More a need to down select to just one EELV...probably Atlas V...and streamline their operation to get cost down.
.... <snip> ....

While I agree with most of what you said, due to the recent RD-180 politics, I strongly suspect that the only way that could happen is if they found an alternative domestic Kero-LOX engine and modified the current Vandenberg Delta Heavy pad to support it. Then add in a low cost higher thrust RL-10 replacement.

If ULA down-selects to one vehicle, doesn't that end the Boeing/LM joint venture?
At what point in such a down-select would LM have to buy Boeing out or divest itself of Boeing assets/legacy engineers/etc. -- in other words, disband ULA because the 'alliance' part is history?

Why would it? Beoing doesn't own Delta IV. Lockheed Martin doesn't own Atlas V. ULA does. Even if they down-select internally, Boeing and LM can still share profits.

Yes, as I understand it (which could be incorrect), it would perhaps be like GM dropping the Pontiac line.  Whatever entities that were individually Pontiac when GM bought them some time decades ago, was integrated into GM.  And so Pontiac is a product owned by GM.  When GM dropped Pontiac, they were simply shutting down some of their products, and making up those sales with their other more popular/profitable lines like Chevy and GMC. 

As ULA would be doing if they were to drop Delta IV and produce more Atlas V's.
« Last Edit: 08/20/2014 10:03 pm by Lobo »

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #128 on: 09/24/2014 11:43 pm »
With the September 17 press conference announcing ULA and Blue Origin are teaming up on a new engine (which may need a new launcher), this puts the ULA Gass-Bruno CEO transition in a new light.

We know that ULA has been working with Blue Origin for at least a year, and if this new direction was going to happening soon it would make sense to let the new CEO put his stamp on the creation, even though Gass has been laying the ground work.  Lots of decisions have to be made now that the partnership has been consummated, so having the long-term CEO being in charge from the beginning makes sense.

I was in the middle of a conversation about business models with someone when, for some reason, this thought bubbled up.  My brain does the darn-dest things when I'm not watching, but this one was actually worth mentioning...   ;)
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Offline MP99

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #129 on: 09/25/2014 07:44 am »
Thanks. Agree that makes sense.

Cheers, Martin

Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #130 on: 10/17/2014 01:26 am »
With the September 17 press conference announcing ULA and Blue Origin are teaming up on a new engine (which may need a new launcher), this puts the ULA Gass-Bruno CEO transition in a new light.

We know that ULA has been working with Blue Origin for at least a year, and if this new direction was going to happening soon it would make sense to let the new CEO put his stamp on the creation, even though Gass has been laying the ground work.  Lots of decisions have to be made now that the partnership has been consummated, so having the long-term CEO being in charge from the beginning makes sense.

I was in the middle of a conversation about business models with someone when, for some reason, this thought bubbled up.  My brain does the darn-dest things when I'm not watching, but this one was actually worth mentioning...   ;)

Here's the big article on business direction under Mr. Bruno.
Quote
Exclusive: ULA plans new rocket, restructuring to cut launch costs in half

United Launch Alliance is starting to develop a whole new rocket system and will be restructuring its processes and workforce to slash launch costs in half amid smaller military budgets and competition from SpaceX.

The result will be a smaller ULA in the near term, but one able to grow again and win new kinds of business in the long run, said Tory Bruno
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/boosters_bits/2014/10/exclusive-ula-plans-a-new-rocket-restructuring-to.html
« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 01:28 am by AncientU »
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Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #131 on: 10/17/2014 02:31 am »
Looks like NASA investment in SpaceX is going to reward the US government many times over in reduced launch costs and extra tax revenue from commercial launches.

Offline woods170

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #132 on: 10/17/2014 08:25 am »
With the September 17 press conference announcing ULA and Blue Origin are teaming up on a new engine (which may need a new launcher), this puts the ULA Gass-Bruno CEO transition in a new light.

We know that ULA has been working with Blue Origin for at least a year, and if this new direction was going to happening soon it would make sense to let the new CEO put his stamp on the creation, even though Gass has been laying the ground work.  Lots of decisions have to be made now that the partnership has been consummated, so having the long-term CEO being in charge from the beginning makes sense.

I was in the middle of a conversation about business models with someone when, for some reason, this thought bubbled up.  My brain does the darn-dest things when I'm not watching, but this one was actually worth mentioning...   ;)

Here's the big article on business direction under Mr. Bruno.
Quote
Exclusive: ULA plans new rocket, restructuring to cut launch costs in half

United Launch Alliance is starting to develop a whole new rocket system and will be restructuring its processes and workforce to slash launch costs in half amid smaller military budgets and competition from SpaceX.

The result will be a smaller ULA in the near term, but one able to grow again and win new kinds of business in the long run, said Tory Bruno
http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/boosters_bits/2014/10/exclusive-ula-plans-a-new-rocket-restructuring-to.html

Nice to see that Jim is finally proven wrong with regards to ULA.
He has stated a number of times that developing all new launch systems is off limits for ULA. Supposedly, the ULA charter allows ULA to only work on Atlas V and Delta IV, including improvements, but nothing else.
Example of improvements is the common avionics suite now under development for Atlas V and Delta IV.

However, now we have the new ULA CEO (no less) clearly stating that ULA is actively working on an all new rocket, with new engines. Not an Atlas V, not a Delta IV, but an all new rocket.
Under Jim's reasoning that would be a violotion of ULA's charter.
 
I see two possible explanations for this:
1. Jim was wrong all the time because ULA's own charter did not actually prevent them from working on anything but Atlas V and Delta IV.
2. ULA's charter was recently changed to allow for work on a new launcher.

My guess is Jim will pick the second option for his bail out. ;)





« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 08:38 am by woods170 »

Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #133 on: 10/17/2014 10:00 am »
There is also the longstanding claim that SpaceX costs would rise to match the market as set by ULA.
Apparently Mr. Bruno didn't get that memo.

Great news that ULA is getting prepared to compete.
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Offline Mader Levap

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #134 on: 10/17/2014 10:14 am »
Another popular claim - that nothing ULA/Boeing/anyOtherOldSpace does is related to SpaceX and their competition - bites dust too. Even if that was true previously (imo doubtful, it was just denial from usual suspects), it is not true now.
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Offline AncientU

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #135 on: 10/17/2014 10:46 am »
So, let's say the pair of BE-4s match the cost of the RD-180 (or are free for that matter)... And the cost of solids drops away...

Many questions remain as to how the 50% reduction can be achieved.  It's unlikely to be by increases in numbers of cores produced, maybe even the opposite will be true.

1. Are the RL-10s, which are the supposed cost drivers, now going the be half priced or will they be replaced by BE-3?
2. Are the other vendors going to cut costs in half or is there going to be a massive flow of component development/replacement in house at ULA?
3. Are the Unions on board with doubling their output?
4. Is the engineering workforce ready to develop the new vehicle at half the payroll?
5. Is Management going to be slashed?
6. Are Boeing/LM going to settle for half the profit?

All of the above is correct answer by necessity.
« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 10:46 am by AncientU »
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Offline baldusi

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #136 on: 10/17/2014 11:52 am »

So, let's say the pair of BE-4s match the cost of the RD-180 (or are free for that matter)... And the cost of solids drops away...

Many questions remain as to how the 50% reduction can be achieved.  It's unlikely to be by increases in numbers of cores produced, maybe even the opposite will be true.

1. Are the RL-10s, which are the supposed cost drivers, now going the be half priced or will they be replaced by BE-3?
2. Are the other vendors going to cut costs in half or is there going to be a massive flow of component development/replacement in house at ULA?
3. Are the Unions on board with doubling their output?
4. Is the engineering workforce ready to develop the new vehicle at half the payroll?
5. Is Management going to be slashed?
6. Are Boeing/LM going to settle for half the profit?

All of the above is correct answer by necessity.
If the consolidate on a single rocket that's half the pads, building, probably just one third of the production lines, tec.

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #137 on: 10/17/2014 12:36 pm »
If the consolidate on a single rocket that's half the pads, building, probably just one third of the production lines, tec.
But is it? True they are running single shift on four pads, but they are pretty much tapped out on the Atlas pads. Reducing the number of pads would reduce the number of missions they can fly a year. While this may work for Vandenberg, They would be hard pressed to meet the flight rate with only one east coast pad. Didn't a planetary mission recently get manifested for Vandenberg?

I suspect the savings come from cheaper first stage engines, single assembly line in a single location, ditching the Hydrogen first stage, and he didn't say it, but they must be looking to reduce the upper stage costs. That would mean a low cost RL-10 replacement and cheaper tankage. 

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Offline baldusi

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #138 on: 10/17/2014 03:17 pm »
If the consolidate on a single rocket that's half the pads, building, probably just one third of the production lines, tec.
But is it? True they are running single shift on four pads, but they are pretty much tapped out on the Atlas pads. Reducing the number of pads would reduce the number of missions they can fly a year. While this may work for Vandenberg, They would be hard pressed to meet the flight rate with only one east coast pad. Didn't a planetary mission recently get manifested for Vandenberg?

I suspect the savings come from cheaper first stage engines, single assembly line in a single location, ditching the Hydrogen first stage, and he didn't say it, but they must be looking to reduce the upper stage costs. That would mean a low cost RL-10 replacement and cheaper tankage.
Orbital Dr. Elias stated that the RL10was around 12M when ordered in large batches. Not that much extra expensive. And if they actually move to 3D printed MCC and Regen Nozzle that cost might seriously go down. The whole H2 proposition is expensive. But I don't see them moving from it. At least not on the next gen LV.
The Atlas V rate of launch could be almost doubled with an extra VIF and MLP. Testing and even paylaod integration are done at the VIF and the pad requires at most 10 days for each launch. So, they could build a dedicated MLP for the new LV to validate it and use the old VIF. Once the LV is certified they might build a new VIF and smoothly transition from Atlas V to the Next Generation LV. They could take down the Delta IV pad quite fast. All this rest on the assumption that the second LV for DoD space access assurance will be the Falcon 9 family.

Offline MP99

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #139 on: 10/17/2014 03:52 pm »


If the consolidate on a single rocket that's half the pads, building, probably just one third of the production lines, tec.
But is it? True they are running single shift on four pads, but they are pretty much tapped out on the Atlas pads. Reducing the number of pads would reduce the number of missions they can fly a year. While this may work for Vandenberg, They would be hard pressed to meet the flight rate with only one east coast pad. Didn't a planetary mission recently get manifested for Vandenberg?

ISTM that halving costs may well imply streamlining the amount of work at the pad, which may allow more launches from one pad.

I hate to use it as an example in this case, but SpaceX did say they were delivering F9 v1.1 to the pad with less work required to get it ready to fly, and their recent launch cadence suggests this is working for them.

Cheers, Martin

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #140 on: 10/17/2014 03:52 pm »
I would argue it would be cheaper to convert the existing Delta IV pad to support the new LV than it would be to build a second VIF.

The problem with building large RL-10 batches is you end up putting a large number of engines into inventory. Bean counters do not like that. ULA got caught in that trap during the formation of ULA. They inherited a large number of DeltaIV RL-10's from Boeing. It also leads to an unhealthy relationship between you and your engine supplier. If you order a large batch of RL-10's every five years, what do they do in the meantime? Do you continue to offer them? Is it worth it? That is part of the overhead problem...
« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 03:54 pm by kevin-rf »
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Offline rpapo

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #141 on: 10/17/2014 04:10 pm »
Add to that the problems involved with retro-fitting engines when a known design flaw surfaces.
Following the space program since before Apollo 8.

Offline edkyle99

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #142 on: 10/17/2014 04:40 pm »
If the consolidate on a single rocket that's half the pads, building, probably just one third of the production lines, tec.
But is it? True they are running single shift on four pads, but they are pretty much tapped out on the Atlas pads. Reducing the number of pads would reduce the number of missions they can fly a year. While this may work for Vandenberg, They would be hard pressed to meet the flight rate with only one east coast pad. Didn't a planetary mission recently get manifested for Vandenberg?

I suspect the savings come from cheaper first stage engines, single assembly line in a single location, ditching the Hydrogen first stage, and he didn't say it, but they must be looking to reduce the upper stage costs. That would mean a low cost RL-10 replacement and cheaper tankage. 
Remember that this is for 2019 and later - for the next round of EELV competition assuming that ULA wins.  The company appears ready to do whatever is necessary to compete on costs, including apparently slimming down to one launch vehicle and two core stages from its current two launch vehicles and five core stages.  I expect that it would close launch pads, or build new pads, or close and/or build new factories, among other things to compete.  (When they say "cut costs by 50%", BTW, what they are really saying is cut overall number of employees involved (not just at ULA but among all contractors combined)  by 50%).  SpaceX really has changed the playing field, and ULA clearly intends to play on that field.

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« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 05:01 pm by edkyle99 »

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #143 on: 10/17/2014 04:40 pm »
There is also the longstanding claim that SpaceX costs would rise to match the market as set by ULA.


They are

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #144 on: 10/17/2014 04:43 pm »


Nice to see that Jim is finally proven wrong with regards to ULA.
He has stated a number of times that developing all new launch systems is off limits for ULA. Supposedly, the ULA charter allows ULA to only work on Atlas V and Delta IV, including improvements, but nothing else.
Example of improvements is the common avionics suite now under development for Atlas V and Delta IV.

However, now we have the new ULA CEO (no less) clearly stating that ULA is actively working on an all new rocket, with new engines. Not an Atlas V, not a Delta IV, but an all new rocket.
Under Jim's reasoning that would be a violotion of ULA's charter.
 
I see two possible explanations for this:
1. Jim was wrong all the time because ULA's own charter did not actually prevent them from working on anything but Atlas V and Delta IV.
2. ULA's charter was recently changed to allow for work on a new launcher.

My guess is Jim will pick the second option for his bail out. ;)


It isn't a "new" rocket.  It is a vehicle derived from Atlas and Delta. "a new line of rockets blending the best features of ULA's Atlas V and Delta IV rocket families."  The charter said ELV's and their derivatives.
« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 05:35 pm by Jim »

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #145 on: 10/17/2014 04:46 pm »
...
The problem with building large RL-10 batches is you end up putting a large number of engines into inventory. Bean counters do not like that. ULA got caught in that trap during the formation of ULA. They inherited a large number of DeltaIV RL-10's from Boeing. It also leads to an unhealthy relationship between you and your engine supplier. If you order a large batch of RL-10's every five years, what do they do in the meantime? Do you continue to offer them? Is it worth it? That is part of the overhead problem...
That is why I think the RL-10 will be retired after the current inventory is reduced. With something like the Blue BE-3 (in-house production). CEO Bruno will have to make a call on this soon.

Offline baldusi

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #146 on: 10/17/2014 05:32 pm »
...
The problem with building large RL-10 batches is you end up putting a large number of engines into inventory. Bean counters do not like that. ULA got caught in that trap during the formation of ULA. They inherited a large number of DeltaIV RL-10's from Boeing. It also leads to an unhealthy relationship between you and your engine supplier. If you order a large batch of RL-10's every five years, what do they do in the meantime? Do you continue to offer them? Is it worth it? That is part of the overhead problem...
That is why I think the RL-10 will be retired after the current inventory is reduced. With something like the Blue BE-3 (in-house production). CEO Bruno will have to make a call on this soon.
If they can keep their cadence, they will need 10 to 15 engines per year. That's not a bad number. You do a 60 engine order for delivery during 5 years and that can get you a reasonable price (like in 12M or so). Boeing did ordered a 100 engines because they knew LM prices and expected to win them all... and then got caught and are still sitting on 70 or so engines. But they actually expected to use them all fast.
And if they can simplify some things, like 3D printed MCC and regen nozzle, then they will be able to significantly reduce costs. More significantly, you can mothball a 3D printer for 5 years. But I'm pretty sure it can be used for other things in the mean while. The wooden mandrels and the machinists that know how to lay and weld the tubes, are a whole different and costly overhead compared to that.
By the way, I understand it is easier to get the 3D dusted metal supplier to do custom batches of material than the tube contractor (its a two step: material plus tubes).

Offline Jim

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #147 on: 10/17/2014 05:38 pm »

That is why I think the RL-10 will be retired after the current inventory is reduced.

 You are talking many years,  not with the current work on the C version and the use of the A's for commercial crew.  The new booster will fly before considering a new upper stage.

Offline Mader Levap

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #148 on: 10/17/2014 06:26 pm »
There is also the longstanding claim that SpaceX costs would rise to match the market as set by ULA.
They are
...roughly with inflation (from 56,5 mln$ to 61.2 mln$). But hey, spin is spin.

Behaviour of ULA shows they do not assume that this empty claim is true. I hope you will not try to pull "ULA lowers price, so they matches prices of SpaceX, so I was right". ::)
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Offline butters

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #149 on: 10/17/2014 06:48 pm »
I'm not sure that ULA can reduce their costs so dramatically, but it will be interesting to see how their relationship with the U.S. government evolves as they try to compete in the commercial market. They can't afford to cater to every whim of the government if they're locked in a battle with SpaceX for market share.

Offline GalacticIntruder

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #150 on: 10/17/2014 07:01 pm »
There is also the longstanding claim that SpaceX costs would rise to match the market as set by ULA.
They are
...roughly with inflation (from 56,5 mln$ to 61.2 mln$). But hey, spin is spin.

Behaviour of ULA shows they do not assume that this empty claim is true. I hope you will not try to pull "ULA lowers price, so they matches prices of SpaceX, so I was right". ::)

Plus SpaceX adds 30-40 million for playing with the AF systems. And no telling what its payload processing costs are to actually put a satellite into the fairing and on the rocket and testing, etc. Either way, SpaceX will always be cheaper than ULA and AS, but that does not matter that much, as we see, ULA and AS still have their customers, for the foreseeable future. Though the idea of ULA winning commercial launches is laughable, especially when SpaceX opens TX.

Even if ULA had to really compete in the government sat market, which they don't, it is not even clear how long SpaceX wants to be be in the commercial or government sat market once they get their human BLEO missions going.

I do find it amusing that SpaceX will not get the FH AF certified until 2019, and that is when ULA expects to be more price competitive.
« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 07:17 pm by GalacticIntruder »
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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #151 on: 10/17/2014 07:39 pm »

1.  ...roughly with inflation (from 56,5 mln$ to 61.2 mln$). But hey, spin is spin.

2.  Behaviour of ULA shows they do not assume that this empty claim is true. I hope you will not try to pull "ULA lowers price, so they matches prices of SpaceX, so I was right". ::)

1.  Those aren't actual prices, so yes, spin is spin

2.  ULA has making moves to lower costs for as long as they were in existence, some areas of cost increases was due shuttle shutdown and the effect on the engine industry. 
« Last Edit: 10/17/2014 07:40 pm by Jim »

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #152 on: 10/17/2014 07:51 pm »
ULA don't have to be cheaper than SpaceX to be competitive but they do have to be in same ballpark eg 20-50% not %100-200% dearer as case is at present.
 ULA are good at delivering reliably and that is more important in a lot of cases.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #153 on: 10/17/2014 09:13 pm »
... More significantly, you can mothball a 3D printer for 5 years.
You sell/forgo the lease. They improve every 18 months.  That's three generations.

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #154 on: 10/17/2014 09:48 pm »
This guy is the right guy to do this. What he claims to do, sounds about right. What about timing and resources?

To shrink down to 1/3, you must address near term demand (both DIV/H and AV) and new designs, shutdown facilities/lines EOLing what you are launching as you launch them for years, discharge staff while bringing up a new line with a differently assembled staff. In essence, stuff unheard of in past incarnation(s).

All the above is strictly survival. Will get you to competitive company position, and retain current customers.

Where do you get the cash/investment to accomplish this? From unsplit profits not returned to shareholders revenue share? From "block buy" upfront? From JV earnest monies of some kind? From a friendly loan?

One can "cost reduce" existing product to make it both attractive to existing customers, and while still a premium performance vehicle (as also is Ariane 5 and H II A/B and likely even Angara A5), it may be attractive and cheap enough to garner commercial market share. Is that competitive enough as a goal for the new CEO?

If not, he's got a considerably larger job and game plan than is yet revealed. As well as needs well beyond what likely can fit within the bounds of the firm he's described.

What does he not have? A base economical vehicle from the lowest cost, fewest/most used components, smallest manufacturing and test footprint.

Does he need this? Sooner or later? What happens if someone crawls under his costs relentlessly hammering? One with seemingly endless financial resources?

Offline IslandPlaya

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Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #155 on: 10/17/2014 10:21 pm »
This guy is the right guy to do this. What he claims to do, sounds about right. What about timing and resources?

To shrink down to 1/3, you must address near term demand (both DIV/H and AV) and new designs, shutdown facilities/lines EOLing what you are launching as you launch them for years, discharge staff while bringing up a new line with a differently assembled staff. In essence, stuff unheard of in past incarnation(s).

All the above is strictly survival. Will get you to competitive company position, and retain current customers.

Where do you get the cash/investment to accomplish this? From unsplit profits not returned to shareholders revenue share? From "block buy" upfront? From JV earnest monies of some kind? From a friendly loan?

One can "cost reduce" existing product to make it both attractive to existing customers, and while still a premium performance vehicle (as also is Ariane 5 and H II A/B and likely even Angara A5), it may be attractive and cheap enough to garner commercial market share. Is that competitive enough as a goal for the new CEO?

If not, he's got a considerably larger job and game plan than is yet revealed. As well as needs well beyond what likely can fit within the bounds of the firm he's described.

What does he not have? A base economical vehicle from the lowest cost, fewest/most used components, smallest manufacturing and test footprint.

Does he need this? Sooner or later? What happens if someone crawls under his costs relentlessly hammering? One with seemingly endless financial resources?
What happens is goodbye ULA and thanks for all the fish.

Offline Chris Bergin

Re: Mike Gass out as CEO of ULA
« Reply #156 on: 10/17/2014 11:59 pm »
Time to lock this thread.
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