Author Topic: Elon The Boring Company  (Read 1626485 times)

Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1180 on: 04/20/2018 03:52 pm »
It’s a smart move for TBC to highlight this difference with maglev or other trains. Loop can add access at any point along the line without slowing the throughput speed. Suburban areas that don’t benefit at all from a maglev passing by could see significant benefits from Loop. This is true even if the initial line doesn’t have local access because it can be added.

Online launchwatcher

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1181 on: 04/20/2018 04:44 pm »
Ah, the irony of a stop near NSA Hq at a place called "Snowden Pond".


Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1182 on: 04/20/2018 06:07 pm »
As to conflicts in LA with Metro, tunnels are in 3D space. By their nature they don’t exclude future tunnels from crossing or running in the same right of way. The idea that Metro might have future plans to operate in the same area isn’t a serious objection. TBC can design around any actual plans and Metro can adapt future plans around TBC. There’s plenty of room underground to accommodate them both.

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1183 on: 04/20/2018 06:45 pm »
The idea that Metro might have future plans to operate in the same area isn’t a serious objection.

It's about as serious as Metro wants it to be.

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1184 on: 04/20/2018 07:21 pm »
As I said I think TBC, and EMs projects are fantastic, and I believe in the technological leap forward he is bringing, and in reducing the long delays in planning and permuting.
Quote from: Robotbeat
Where the heck does this idea that the TBC pods are “snobbish and elitist” come from?? Just because of some hypothetical Metro project that has little chance of materializing??? You can’t just spread an idea by saying in effect “some people are saying this,” then use it to concern-troll the project.
Robotbeat, I take your heated replies, including the allegation of trolling, as passionate discussion.

As for where did the idea of TBC being elitist come from? ...the recent press interpretation of Elon's own comments.
For example: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/12/14/surprise-elon-musk-is-revolted-by-transit/
Quote
Elon's own comments started much discussion in the media about his attitude to public transport:
So, really, no one should be surprised that Elon Musk thinks transit is beneath him. In fact, the tech billionaire hates rubbing elbows with scary commoners on buses and trains! He said this week in an exchange covered by Wired:
Yes, EM then stated he will prioritise pedestrians and cyclists.
So ISTM that my contribution was fair comment. And ISTM that others thought so too, if you scan the discussion.

 As for whether the legal process is corruption, or ensuring cooperation rather than blocking of one-another's projects. Yes it occurred to me. Valid question. There are I am sure many examples of both.

So moving on...
Does this link mean that TBC has achieved approval: https://la.curbed.com/2018/4/17/17247886/elon-musk-tunnels-loop-ceqa-environmental
 and do these ammendments:
Quote from: la.curbed.com
On Wednesday, the city’s public works committee backed two amendments proposed by Blumenfield. One stipulates that the city of Los Angeles would be indemnified from legal costs accrued from the project. The other would require Metro and the Boring Company to coordinate so tunnels don’t conflict with future Metro projects.
mean that a proper cooperation should now happen... or that TBC is now mired in endless bureaucracy that will doom the project?
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Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1185 on: 04/20/2018 09:44 pm »
The idea that Metro might have future plans to operate in the same area isn’t a serious objection.

It's about as serious as Metro wants it to be.

I appreciate your detailed insights about this process. There’s more background understanding conveyed in your posts on this thread than in press coverage.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1186 on: 04/20/2018 11:39 pm »
DistantTemple: that’s not just the generic “press,” it’s an anti-car activist site. They don’t like the idea of anything at all approaching or facilitating cars on principle (and that blog post was written before TBC explicitly became focused on pedestrians and bicyclists instead of cars). It’s the similar to those who are against Musk simply because he’s a billionaire and will admit so, which is literally and openly a socialist viewpoint. And while I won’t deny their right to that worldview (or even say that socialism—in this example—is wrong), it must be acknowledged that it is FAR from a mainstream opinion in the US and shouldn’t be construed as some popular movement but should be acknowledged as a viewpoint far from the mainstream.
« Last Edit: 04/20/2018 11:44 pm by Robotbeat »
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Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1187 on: 04/21/2018 12:13 am »
DistantTemple: that’s not just the generic “press,” it’s an anti-car activist site. They don’t like the idea of anything at all approaching or facilitating cars on principle. It’s the similar to those who are against Musk simply because he’s a billionaire and will admit so. This is literally a socialist viewpoint. And while I won’t deny their right to that worldview, it must be acknowledged that it is FAR from a mainstream opinion in the US and shouldn’t be construed as some popular movement but should be acknowledged as a viewpoint far from the mainstream.
Ah...you are right..... it was a bit of a quick search. OK that site is not mainstream, but there is a lot of reactionary negativity about EM, often being over half the top Google results for EM, SX, Tesla, TBC etc.
When Elon made the comment about not liking public transport, many news results implied EM was negative about public transport in general in their headlines, (closeness to other people etc) before often moderating and explaining the detail of what he actually said in their articles.
 
I believe the negativity is pretty much all misplaced, (and often is clickbait or has deliberate negative intent) and is not a popular movement, but still must not be ignored, as like certain political events in the UK or voting in the US parts of the public absorb this rubbish, and can upset the apple-cart.

Do you think the mainstream opinion is behind EM and TBC?
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1188 on: 04/21/2018 03:09 am »
Yeah, definitely the mainstream opinion is behind Elon and TBC. That’s why the city council was unanimous. but there are some weirdly vocal people who are against Elon. There’s a well-known and well-funded attack campaign against Tesla. But there’s also some legitimate pushback.

I would like to think there is some pushback that is constructive, as well. For instance, the car carrying pod idea just wasn’t as good as one carrying people, so that is valid criticism, and luckily Musk had the sense to realize that, refocusing TBC on passenger transit.
« Last Edit: 04/21/2018 03:10 am by Robotbeat »
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline AncientU

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1189 on: 04/21/2018 10:56 am »
Yeah, definitely the mainstream opinion is behind Elon and TBC. That’s why the city council was unanimous. but there are some weirdly vocal people who are against Elon. There’s a well-known and well-funded attack campaign against Tesla. But there’s also some legitimate pushback.

I would like to think there is some pushback that is constructive, as well. For instance, the car carrying pod idea just wasn’t as good as one carrying people, so that is valid criticism, and luckily Musk had the sense to realize that, refocusing TBC on passenger transit.

Bots.
He has embarrassed lots of people in high places.
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Offline speedevil

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1190 on: 04/21/2018 11:29 am »
I would like to think there is some pushback that is constructive, as well. For instance, the car carrying pod idea just wasn’t as good as one carrying people, so that is valid criticism, and luckily Musk had the sense to realize that, refocusing TBC on passenger transit.

I don't believe the core idea has actually changed, just the presentation.
A tesla model s weighs 2500kg or so with passengers - it's reasonable to assume this is a notional load.

A lightweight 'minibus' pod, based on the same sled can carry perhaps 18 passengers, with no extra technical work at all, other than perhaps the details around the length of the vehicle perhaps enlarging the vertical lifts.
.
This is of course the best sort of change - change which is free and doesn't affect your original ideas, if you decide to pivot back, you just unbolt the coachwork.


Offline Ludus

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1191 on: 04/22/2018 12:39 am »
I would like to think there is some pushback that is constructive, as well. For instance, the car carrying pod idea just wasn’t as good as one carrying people, so that is valid criticism, and luckily Musk had the sense to realize that, refocusing TBC on passenger transit.

I don't believe the core idea has actually changed, just the presentation.
A tesla model s weighs 2500kg or so with passengers - it's reasonable to assume this is a notional load.

A lightweight 'minibus' pod, based on the same sled can carry perhaps 18 passengers, with no extra technical work at all, other than perhaps the details around the length of the vehicle perhaps enlarging the vertical lifts.
.
This is of course the best sort of change - change which is free and doesn't affect your original ideas, if you decide to pivot back, you just unbolt the coachwork.

That’s my impression too but they aren’t guilty of revealing too much. That people pod was in the original video without much comment. It could work as just a body sitting on a tunnel skate popping up as depicted, or as an independent AV that both rolls around city streets on Tesla Network or rolls onto skates for Loop travel. It’s a very flexible system. Carrying cars means it can carry police and EMS vehicles for emergencies, something a subway train can’t help with.

Offline OxCartMark

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1192 on: 04/22/2018 02:28 am »
Boring the wrong way in Hawthorne.  Need to turn it around and bore toward port of L.A. to get better ability to move people between HQ and WW Marine Composites.  Someone get Elon on the phone and let him know.
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Offline Adriano

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1193 on: 04/22/2018 02:59 am »
Can somebody direct me to where somebody discussed a) the design of stations and b) accidents in the tunnel and vehicle failures

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1194 on: 04/22/2018 03:38 am »
No stations. It’s dispersed. The pods are like getting into a taxi, but they’re on an elevator that brings the whole thing from the surface to the underground tunnel. Watch the video.
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Offline speedevil

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1195 on: 04/22/2018 04:59 am »
No stations. It’s dispersed. The pods are like getting into a taxi, but they’re on an elevator that brings the whole thing from the surface to the underground tunnel. Watch the video.
And to address the other issue, vehicle issues in the tunnel are handled as a self-driving car would.
They're all in communication with each other, and if there is an uncommanded slowdown or something bursts into flame, everything starts slowing down and backing up to the entrance to clear the tunnel.
In some cases even pushing a non-on-fire pod with the next pod slowly might be an option, never mind other obvious solutions.

There sort of are underground stations.
If accelerating at 1g (quite a thrill ride!), you need around 125m of track next to the main traffic tunnel, for coming to 100mph in the main tunnel.
There is also the obvious point that if there are more than a couple of destinations, intermediate underground stations - which accumulate a bus-full of people could greatly increase systemic capacity.

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1196 on: 04/22/2018 04:08 pm »
There is also the obvious point that if there are more than a couple of destinations, intermediate underground stations - which accumulate a bus-full of people could greatly increase systemic capacity.
The Loop concept -- just dig more cheap tunnels -- seems to be to overbuild capacity rather than go for optimal utilization   (This worked pretty well during the rapid growth phase of the Internet; once the network goes everywhere you then have real data letting you build non-speculative usage models and can then worry about incremental changes that help you improve utilization).

If you're not careful in how you size and place the intermediate stations and how you admit traffic into them they'll end up congesting the network at peak periods and just introduce added delay at off-peak periods when the network has capacity to carry everyone end-to-end without an intermediate stop.

So I don't think it makes sense to build those initially - you'd want to leave space for them in the network so they could be added later but they add significant complexity to traffic modelling and to the user interface for your passengers.   Heck, if you get the design wrong (and maybe even if you get it right..), novice passengers will also gum things up trying to figure out where they need to go once they arrive at the intermediate stop.

Offline Adriano

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1197 on: 04/22/2018 04:30 pm »
That makes sense. The higher the speed, the longer the acceleration and deceleration ramps at each station, and hence the separation of stations. The pods will be able to travel at different speeds and there will be high speed long distance lines and lower speed local lines. No way of avoiding double tunnels for long distances. Perhaps local lines will have single tunnels making loops to effectively cover more territory... a very interesting optimization problem! User selects destination and computer selects optimal route. Probably higher speed tunnels will run deeper and connections between low speed local tunnels and high speed long distance tunnels will be completely underground (shorter ramps). From the ground you access only loca lines.

Offline speedevil

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1198 on: 04/22/2018 06:05 pm »
There is also the obvious point that if there are more than a couple of destinations, intermediate underground stations - which accumulate a bus-full of people could greatly increase systemic capacity.
The Loop concept -- just dig more cheap tunnels -- seems to be to overbuild capacity rather than go for optimal utilization   (This worked pretty well during the rapid growth phase of the Internet; once the network goes everywhere you then have real data letting you build non-speculative usage models and can then worry about incremental changes that help you improve utilization).

If you're not careful in how you size and place the intermediate stations and how you admit traffic into them they'll end up congesting the network at peak periods and just introduce added delay at off-peak periods when the network has capacity to carry everyone end-to-end without an intermediate stop.

By intermediate stations, I do not mean you have these stations as planned stops.
I mean there will be a rough grid of tunnels direct between some destinations, but for further away destinations, this can't make sense.
You can imagine direct tunnels for four destinations.
But not for a hundred.

So, you punch in your destination into your smartphone and it will direct you to the nearest surface terminal that contains the most possible people going in a similar direction to you,or small numbers of destinations.
You want to go to Z, but are at A, and most people are going to D and C.
You may find a direct connection, but the number of people going to Z may be so low that it could not attract a direct service, as wait times would be too high to fill the cars.

Instead, you're routed to an intermediate station in the middle - which is just a normal stop, perhaps without any surface connection. You then get off, and all of the other passengers do not, and then are collected by a car going to Z.

The intermediate station (or perhaps normal stop) is not dedicated to any particular service.

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: Elon The Boring Company
« Reply #1199 on: 04/22/2018 07:34 pm »
That makes sense. The higher the speed, the longer the acceleration and deceleration ramps at each station, and hence the separation of stations. The pods will be able to travel at different speeds and there will be high speed long distance lines and lower speed local lines. No way of avoiding double tunnels for long distances. Perhaps local lines will have single tunnels making loops to effectively cover more territory... a very interesting optimization problem! User selects destination and computer selects optimal route. Probably higher speed tunnels will run deeper and connections between low speed local tunnels and high speed long distance tunnels will be completely underground (shorter ramps). From the ground you access only loca lines.
Its interesting that the latest map from TBC shows all the stations on little branches, none are technically "intermediate". I think (and others I imagine) that accurate engineering details and ideas are exposed in all such releases form EM's enterprises.
In terms of storing waiting sleds, and pods, the branch could be extended beyond the station. For merging into the main artery the capillary branch could curve in smoothly both North and South like a "y", with a largish radius, allowing joining traffic to speed up on the capillary, and merge at fairly high speed on the artery.
Some London Underground lines also use gravity, dropping out of one station, and rising to the next, to make use of potential energy to reduce motor and brake wear. TBC could make the capillaries shallower, dropping down before merging to the artery. If enough land is available (such as in suburbs) gradients would work instead of a lifts at some stations! This would allow a greater dispatch frequency.
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