Author Topic: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution  (Read 213120 times)

Offline JasonAW3

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #40 on: 07/28/2014 06:19 pm »
What is the minimum distance offshore a barge would have to be to keep various bureaucratic busybodies from saying "No, you can't land there."

Russia?
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Offline rcoppola

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #41 on: 07/28/2014 06:20 pm »
The rocket lands on the barge. Fade to black.
That's how I picture it. No need to show the stage splashing into the sea.

One thougt though: If you design a trap of steel wires, heavy nets, it might be bossible to save the stage from sinking, might save at lest the engines. On the other hand this adds risk of kaboom.
That's a nice thought for the post video release. But I highly doubt they would land on a barge without a plan to secure it or get it off safely.
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Offline butters

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #42 on: 07/28/2014 06:21 pm »
The most important consideration for certifying RTLS is the ability to land on a defined target. We saw the video of the Orbcomm water landing, but we don't know if there was a precise target, and if so, how close they came to hitting the target.

Is there anything to learn from landing on a barge that can't be learned by landing on a GPS coordinate in the ocean?

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #43 on: 07/28/2014 06:25 pm »
You can bring it back for structural analysis, which helps you down the road.

Some of the semi-submersible ships have astounding capacities. The MV Blue Marlin and it's sister ship can haul 20+ stacked regular barges, whole oil rigs or 2 destroyers on her deck.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 06:28 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline TrevorMonty

The most important consideration for certifying RTLS is the ability to land on a defined target. We saw the video of the Orbcomm water landing, but we don't know if there was a precise target, and if so, how close they came to hitting the target.

Is there anything to learn from landing on a barge that can't be learned by landing on a GPS coordinate in the ocean?
If they are targeting a barge next the last flight must have been dead on target.

Offline cscott

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #45 on: 07/28/2014 06:52 pm »
It *may* be possible that the "low probability of success" water landing (on the CRS-4 flight) is actually on the barge, and that the short time won't permit any particularly special means of either stabilizing the barge or securing the stage after landing.   Thus they'll get the nice pinpoint landing demo, but still expect a kaboom.

I'm not sure how likely that is, and it's certainly parsing the various statements a bit too finely for my taste.

But it would buy time for a "better" solution for the two flights after that (if they can't secure a land landing).  Either a bigger/more stable floating platform (ie, something with active stabilization, not just a barge), or something else to secure the stage after landing.

That would be consistent with both "barge" *and* "not barge" interpretations of the "solid surface".

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #46 on: 07/28/2014 06:59 pm »
The point of a barge landing would be to prove precision landing and a stable, safeable stage. E.g. no "Boom"s anymore.

Do it enough and it compels action to allow on land landings. Period.

While you wait for this, you might have a helicopter "safing" effort (bonus):
* Tie downs to temporarily restrain stage allowing safing crew access.
* Vehicle is safed and restraints removed.
* Helo acts as crane to collapse legs and bring stage horizontal
* Stage/barge towed back into port

Stage reflown in weeks as demonstrator of "gas n go" (bonus).

This would never happen with traditional practice. But spacex not traditional:
* while still not getting at operational costs/issues would shift the arguments drastically
* would establish a measurable risk means to reuse stages
* political impact / fallout - obvious to even average citizen

Net effect of this would be to complete the main cycle of spacex "differention" from others. Not just marketing but legal / policy as well.

Offline Elmar Moelzer

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #47 on: 07/28/2014 08:00 pm »
I just hope that heavy weather and resulting high waves in the Atlantic wont make the barge roll too much. Bad weather could also make helicopter work very unlikely.

Offline yg1968

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #48 on: 07/28/2014 08:34 pm »
Concerning the barge, I would assume that the barge would be uncrewed at the time of landing. Also, I imagine that it would be very difficult to bring the first stage back to land without it tipping over. So the first stage might first land on the barge and then launch again and then land the second time in the water? Endangering a crew seems unnecessary at this point. Does that make sense? What other options would be possible?
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 08:48 pm by yg1968 »

Offline mmeijeri

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #49 on: 07/28/2014 08:49 pm »
I guess a jack-up barge counts as a barge, so maybe they intend to lease one and put it on the edge of the continental shelf off Florida? Not sure what benefit they'd be looking for though.
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #50 on: 07/28/2014 09:03 pm »
IMO a jack-up barge is the best bet. Stable as hell on rough water, large, usually rentable by the month, lots of them around. We even have them in the Great Lakes.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 09:08 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline mmeijeri

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #51 on: 07/28/2014 09:11 pm »
Doesn't look insanely expensive either, judging by the prices on this site.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 09:13 pm by mmeijeri »
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Offline Razvan

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #52 on: 07/28/2014 09:47 pm »
Hmmm, ok, so the F9R lands on this barge. Maybe they do it closer then last time, say 25 miles out. How do they intend to get it back? Have another crane barge with a cradle bolted to the deck standing by to lift it off the landing barge and lay it down on the cradle?


Yeah, this barge strategy doesn't make a lot of sense to me other than as a demo.

I am sure the barge would have to be anchored and nobody on it during the actual landing. So how do they secure the rocket after it lands? It is windy out there. There is some wave action even on a big heavy barge.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the end result is going to be a successful landing on the barge, then a tip over due to waves or wind.

SpaceX might be fine with that. The goal might not be recovery, but more landing precision testing.

But the odds of securing that rocket on a barge, and then towing it back to land, seem remote to me. I am having trouble picturing the process way out at sea. Anyone else have any ideas on what might work?

I was thinking of some mooring, too. At least 6 anchors, but than you'd need a crane to bring the booster down to safing. Without crane you are a sitting duck. Besides, preference should be given to shallow waters...

Online matthewkantar

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #53 on: 07/28/2014 10:00 pm »
I would want a flat surface to land on, can a jack up barge be placed so that the towers go away?

Matthew

Offline Darga

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #54 on: 07/28/2014 11:06 pm »


jeez.. from what video is THAT one? :D
Not from any video, it's an exclusive rendering by an L2 member. Looks pretty!

You should see it full size, and the others from the same source. Very much  L2 worthy.

Do you have a L2 link for this one in full size? I cannot seem to find it.

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jeez.. from what video is THAT one? :D
Not from any video, it's an exclusive rendering by an L2 member. Looks pretty!

You should see it full size, and the others from the same source. Very much  L2 worthy.

Do you have a L2 link for this one in full size? I cannot seem to find it.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34649.msg1219366#msg1219366

And remember to use the menu of links to L2 areas on the first post here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=35106.0 - as the envisioning via renderings is spread over a long section with core diameter and Raptor number crunching and such.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 11:48 pm by Chris Bergin »
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Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #56 on: 07/28/2014 11:26 pm »
I would want a flat surface to land on, can a jack up barge be placed so that the towers go away?

Matthew
You can either elevate the platform to the top of the legs, making certain the F9R "knows" this, or get a rig with shorter legs.  Or both. I've seen them from 70-200 feet.
« Last Edit: 07/28/2014 11:26 pm by docmordrid »
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Offline SpaceX_MS

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #57 on: 07/29/2014 01:14 am »
Another awesome article Chris! We continue to appreciate the coverage on the best space site!

Offline M_Puckett

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #58 on: 07/29/2014 01:23 am »
Chris, you may have just created the greatest nerdgasm in the history of the internet.

Great article!

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: SpaceX Roadmap building on its rocket business revolution
« Reply #59 on: 07/29/2014 02:05 am »
Hmmm, ok, so the F9R lands on this barge. Maybe they do it closer then last time, say 25 miles out. How do they intend to get it back? Have another crane barge with a cradle bolted to the deck standing by to lift it off the landing barge and lay it down on the cradle?


Yeah, this barge strategy doesn't make a lot of sense to me other than as a demo.

We should remember that if SpaceX is not immediately bringing a 1st stage back to the launch site, that there must be a reason why they are landing out on the ocean - they are not doing water landings to generate YouTube revenue.  And if they are going to the bother (and risk) of a barge landing, then there must be something they need to see on the stage before they attempt to fly it back to land.

Maybe they want to verify the condition of the center engine?  Or the insulation around the engine area, especially if it's going to be traveling further?  Or maybe they need to validate how much propellant is left?

I don't know, but they sure seem to think it's important before they attempt a landing back at the launch site.

Quote
I am sure the barge would have to be anchored and nobody on it during the actual landing. So how do they secure the rocket after it lands? It is windy out there. There is some wave action even on a big heavy barge.

From what I've seen on large ships that transport specialty payloads, they usually weld fixtures to the steel deck to secure things.  Maybe they will fabricate some sort of support poles that can be propped up against the side of the 1st stage core and then welded onto the deck - doing that on 4 sides should provide some support, though probably not for anything too rough.

That would be my guess.
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