Author Topic: Starlink direct to cell (was SpaceX & T-mobile event 25 Aug 2022)  (Read 66696 times)

Online waveney

Is there a way to ping (@) forum members in reply? I think there are a few people with direct experience from the VSAT and telecom industries - maybe they can share what the regulations apply in the Ocean, which may answer why Lynk states "continuous global coverage" and "anywhere on Earth", while Starlink limits coverage to "on land, lakes, or coastal waters"...

As a retired senior telecoms consultant...

Lynk would be subject to the same regulations as Starlink.

Offline bulkmail

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OK, but what are the requirements to send/receive LTE and 5G signals outside the territorial waters - are they the same in the EEZ and outside EEZ? Who even can issue such worldwide "license" - have the ITU members allocated frequencies among themselves or what?

Online waveney

There are no worldwide licences

Offline Zed_Noir

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OK, but what are the requirements to send/receive LTE and 5G signals outside the territorial waters - are they the same in the EEZ and outside EEZ? Who even can issue such worldwide "license" - have the ITU members allocated frequencies among themselves or what?
There is a simple idea to licensed terminals on the open sea outsized of EEZ. The national regulatory rules for a ground satellite terminal of the vessel that is register to shall applied.

Offline RedLineTrain

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There are no worldwide licences

As far as I know, the closest thing to a worldwide license is Iridium's frequencies.  But that was a freak of history, unlikely ever to be repeated.
« Last Edit: 11/28/2023 04:49 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline raptorx2

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SpaceX files for STA for internal SpaceX testing of Direct to Cell starting Dec. 10.

SES-STA-INTR2023-06753


Offline raptorx2

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BREAKING NEWS!   FCC Approves in Part, Defers in Part SpaceX's Feb. 07, 2023 application to provide "Commercial"  Direct 2 Device service. Providing SpaceX with "First Mover Advantage" in the D2D marketplace

SATMOD2023020700021

Offline raptorx2

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BREAKING NEWS!   FCC Approves in Part, Defers in Part SpaceX's Feb. 07, 2023 application to provide "Commercial"  Direct 2 Device service. Providing SpaceX with "First Mover Advantage" in the D2D marketplace

SATMOD2023020700021

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1730772350646526400

Quote
More on SpaceX D2D "Scope of Grant"

The most important.  "Authority to Launch"
This Grant authorizes SpaceX for the Launch of  "Modified" satellites (up to 7,500 Gen. 2)  into the three authorized Gen. 2 orbital parameters and allows "limited on-orbit check out in the PCS G Block of the satellite buss and antenna deployment for a period of 10 days or less. This authority does not permit LEOP operations. Only the initial 10 day check out period on orbit.

This authorization was the first necessary step in the process.  You can not authorize the  "launch of satellites" on a STA. So this is the purpose of this License Grant.  SpaceX will need to perform LEOP operations shortly after the payloads are past the initial checkout period. 

That is where the new STA SpaceX applied for today 12/01 comes into play.

SES-STA-INTR2023-06753

"SpaceX will conduct its payload testing activities during the launch and early orbit phase (“LEOP”) of the satellites’ mission. During the critical check-out phase, which will begin within hours of launch at an altitude between 290 km and 350 km—depending on the particulars of the specific launch—and will continue for several weeks for each satellite, SpaceX will test the functionality of each direct-to-cellular payload and its network capabilities to ensure that they are operating as intended. Permitting this initial, internal LEOP check-out testing over several weeks (or longer as necessary) for each satellite is critical to assess and address issues as they arise."

Then eventually they will transition to the previously filed STA on October 2nd. for wide-spread testing with TMobile.
SAT-STA-20231002-00240

"Direct-to-cell STA to launch and test its non-geostationary orbit NGSO second generation Gen2 satellites with direct-to-cellular communications payloads to connect unmodified cellular phones directly to SpaceX Gen2 satellites"

Every D2D operator that will provide service to the US will require authority to launch from the FCC.

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1730971108495823025

Quote
Correct.  10 days, then the STA will be approved foe LEOP testing, 30 days, renewable.  The take away is, you can't launch on a STA.  Because you can not easily "unlaunch them" if the STA is not renewed. Watch for a series of filings next week for D2D missions @FCC. I suspect that the 800 satellite number will include at least 1 Starship launch.

Edit/add: zubenelgenubi
« Last Edit: 12/02/2023 07:44 pm by zubenelgenubi »

Offline Zed_Noir

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BREAKING NEWS!   FCC Approves in Part, Defers in Part SpaceX's Feb. 07, 2023 application to provide "Commercial"  Direct 2 Device service. Providing SpaceX with "First Mover Advantage" in the D2D marketplace
<snip>
So we will get notice of the Starlink Group 8-1 launch soon.  :)

Offline RedLineTrain

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The sequencing of all of these requests and licenses and what they mean are a bit confusing.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Offline OceanCat

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The sequencing of all of these requests and licenses and what they mean are a bit confusing.

SAT applications apply to satellites, SES (Satellite Earth Station) applications apply to user terminals/user equipment and ground/gateway stations.

SAT-MOD-2023-0207-00021 partial grant allows them to launch and perform initial check out.

SAT-STA-2023-1002-00240 filed on Oct 2nd will allow them to test direct-to-cellular payload for 60 days before and after the satellites reach operational orbits. It does not cover ground equipment. Closer to the license expiration date SpaceX will most likely file an STA extension request for another 60 days.

SES-STA-2023-06753-INTR filed a few days ago will allow them use 5 link testing devices, 5 cellular probes, and 50 standard cell phones for 30 days across 5 locations. The application complements SAT-STA-2023-1002-00240. They may file to extend it later.

2398-EX-ST-2023 will allow them to test for 180 days using 2,000 standard phones across 13 locations and near radio telescopes. It is bigger in scope than SES-STA-2023-06753-INTR. Maybe SES-STA-2023-06753-INTR was filed because SpaceX does not expect the FCC to approve 2398-EX-ST-2023 before Dec 10.


Offline raptorx2

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The sequencing of all of these requests and licenses and what they mean are a bit confusing.

SAT applications apply to satellites, SES (Satellite Earth Station) applications apply to user terminals/user equipment and ground/gateway stations.

SAT-MOD-2023-0207-00021 partial grant allows them to launch and perform initial check out.

SAT-STA-2023-1002-00240 filed on Oct 2nd will allow them to test direct-to-cellular payload for 60 days before and after the satellites reach operational orbits. It does not cover ground equipment. Closer to the license expiration date SpaceX will most likely file an STA extension request for another 60 days.

SES-STA-2023-06753-INTR filed a few days ago will allow them use 5 link testing devices, 5 cellular probes, and 50 standard cell phones for 30 days across 5 locations. The application complements SAT-STA-2023-1002-00240. They may file to extend it later.

2398-EX-ST-2023 will allow them to test for 180 days using 2,000 standard phones across 13 locations and near radio telescopes. It is bigger in scope than SES-STA-2023-06753-INTR. Maybe SES-STA-2023-06753-INTR was filed because SpaceX does not expect the FCC to approve 2398-EX-ST-2023 before Dec 10.

https://twitter.com/FREESPEECH1017/status/1733215684308631733

Offline RedLineTrain

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BREAKING NEWS!   FCC Approves in Part, Defers in Part SpaceX's Feb. 07, 2023 application to provide "Commercial"  Direct 2 Device service. Providing SpaceX with "First Mover Advantage" in the D2D marketplace
<snip>
So we will get notice of the Starlink Group 8-1 launch soon.  :)

Apologies if this is only confusing to me and obvious to everyone else, but to be clear, it appears that Starlink now has approval to launch its V2 mini with D2D payload on all 7,500 Gen2 satellites.  Further, it is allowed to test out all of these payloads for 10 days in a narrow band.

This is not limited to Group 8.  SpaceX may launch to Group 6 or Group 7 with a D2D payload, but the only indication for us would be that there are fewer satellites than 22 (from Vandenberg) or 23 (from the Cape) on the launch.  In a separate e-mail to the FCC (attached), SpaceX stated that it plans to launch 840 D2D satellites in the next 6 months.  That's about 50 launches of the heavier satellites, which seems to suggest that all of Starlink launches will now orbit D2D satellites, no matter the group.

Indeed, SpaceX continues to file D2D analyses with the full 30,000-satellite Gen2 constellation, indicating that it still is gunning for the full constellation and is not content with the 7,500-satellite Gen2 constellation licensed to date.

Altogether, it is apparent that SpaceX is going full force into D2D and that the FCC is not yet the limiting factor.  If the FCC has not acted on the full D2D modification by the end of Summer next, it might start to crimp SpaceX's efforts.
« Last Edit: 12/09/2023 03:01 pm by RedLineTrain »

Offline raptorx2

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This is not limited to Group 8.  SpaceX may launch to Group 6 or Group 7 with a D2D payload, but the only indication for us would be that there are fewer satellites than 22 (from Vandenberg) or 23 (from the Cape) on the launch.

snip.. 

In a separate e-mail to the FCC (attached), SpaceX stated that it plans to launch 840 D2D satellites in the next 6 months.  That's about 50 launches of the heavier satellites, which seems to suggest that all of Starlink launches will now orbit D2D satellites, no matter the group.

Indeed, SpaceX continues to file D2D analyses with the full 30,000-satellite Gen2 constellation, indicating that it still is gunning for the full constellation and is not content with the 7,500-satellite Gen2 constellation licensed to date.

Altogether, it is apparent that SpaceX is going full force into D2D and that the FCC is not yet the limiting factor.  If the FCC has not acted on the full D2D modification by the end of Summer next, it might start to crimp SpaceX's efforts.

Correct. The FCC has provided Starlink "Authorization to Launch" up to 7,500 US-flagged D2D payloads into all 3 Gen. 2 inclinations.

In the FCC Documents, SpaceX has shown several Cases of possible constellation configurations to provide "continuous coverage"  The first two are Case 1 840, and Case 2 1680. I refer to them as Tranche 1 and Tranche 2.  (Notice in the Data provided in documents submitted to the FCC the two configurations below, that in many cases, Tranche 1 and Tranche 2 satellites are nearly on top of each other)   If you are launching an additional 840 satellites, you would think that they would place the other satellites in between the others to provide better performance/"look angles".  No?

So here is my speculative viewpoint on this data.

Tranche #1 is already on orbit.  The launch from Vandenberg on Friday = brings the total of V2.0 Minis launched to date to  the magic number ~840.  my opinion, these were launched under the before-mentioned "German licensed payload" authority noted in their original Dec. 2022 FCC  [D2D] filing.  These Tranche #1 [D2D payloads] are not subject to FCC authority, there is no "US Market Entry" for these Tranche #1 payloads..  These will be operated in International Markets Only.

Now, they have completed Tranche #1 German licensed payloads, now they must launch (due to FCC rules and lease requirements) another Tranche #2 that is more or less duplicative of Tranche #1 that is US-flagged to provide service to the US AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL MARKETS approved by the FCC.

If anyone believes that it has taken SpaceX more then 15 months to design and build a [D2D} "2 way messaging/messaging app" capable satellite, while Lynks is doing [D2D] Messaging and Voice from what is effectively a Cube Sat. Then I will say they are either crazy, or SpaceX is incompetent.

SpaceX filed with the FCC for an "Experimental Non-Commercial License" in late November to test ~840 D2D satellites and 2000 smartphones.

SpaceX also filed a standard STA in early December for "on-orbit LEOP" checkout of the US-Flagged payloads

Under FCC Experimental License, SpaceX would be able to test (non-commercially) using the Tranche 1 German-licensed payloads inside the United States in the presence of SpaceX and TMobile employees only.  (I would assume that confidential testing in select international markets via Experimental Authorities has been ongoing).   

Tranche #2 (US TMUS) ~840 should be on-orbit by the end of summer and the US Tranche 1 Experimenatal testing will be long into the process. SpaceX will be ready to for T Mobile Commerical Launch upon finalized licensing.

I would also speculate that given the investment SpaceX is making into the [D2D] project, that they will pay a significant amount of money to purchase Omnispace to deploy its own global service that will not be dependent on local MNO spectrum leases.

Offline RedLineTrain

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So here is my speculative viewpoint on this data.

Tranche #1 is already on orbit.  The launch from Vandenberg on Friday = brings the total of V2.0 Minis launched to date to  the magic number ~840.  my opinion, these were launched under the before-mentioned "German licensed payload" authority noted in their original Dec. 2022 FCC  [D2D] filing.  These Tranche #1 [D2D payloads] are not subject to FCC authority, there is no "US Market Entry" for these Tranche #1 payloads..  These will be operated in International Markets Only.

Now, they have completed Tranche #1 German licensed payloads, now they must launch (due to FCC rules and lease requirements) another Tranche #2 that is more or less duplicative of Tranche #1 that is US-flagged to provide service to the US AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL MARKETS approved by the FCC.

If anyone believes that it has taken SpaceX more then 15 months to design and build a [D2D} "2 way messaging/messaging app" capable satellite, while Lynks is doing [D2D] Messaging and Voice from what is effectively a Cube Sat. Then I will say they are either crazy, or SpaceX is incompetent.

If what you describe as Tranche #1 includes a German-licensed payload, I suspect that it is rudimentary.  The F9-3 configuration is a full 170 kg more than the F9-2 V2 mini configuration and has an almost double bus length.  That said, I recognize that even a rudimentary payload could be useful.

More than 15 months is a long time for SpaceX and Swarm Technologies, but we are talking about designing, manufacturing, and integrating a phased array with custom silicon.  Meanwhile, one-half of the D2D leadership (Ben Longmier) was on a crash course to design and manufacture the argon thrusters for the V2 satellites.  I would forgive a bit of lag time to introduce.

Offline raptorx2

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So here is my speculative viewpoint on this data.

Tranche #1 is already on orbit.  The launch from Vandenberg on Friday = brings the total of V2.0 Minis launched to date to  the magic number ~840.  my opinion, these were launched under the before-mentioned "German licensed payload" authority noted in their original Dec. 2022 FCC  [D2D] filing.  These Tranche #1 [D2D payloads] are not subject to FCC authority, there is no "US Market Entry" for these Tranche #1 payloads..  These will be operated in International Markets Only.

Now, they have completed Tranche #1 German licensed payloads, now they must launch (due to FCC rules and lease requirements) another Tranche #2 that is more or less duplicative of Tranche #1 that is US-flagged to provide service to the US AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL MARKETS approved by the FCC.

If anyone believes that it has taken SpaceX more then 15 months to design and build a [D2D} "2 way messaging/messaging app" capable satellite, while Lynks is doing [D2D] Messaging and Voice from what is effectively a Cube Sat. Then I will say they are either crazy, or SpaceX is incompetent.

If what you describe as Tranche #1 includes a German-licensed payload, I suspect that it is rudimentary.  The F9-3 configuration is a full 170 kg more than the F9-2 V2 mini configuration and has an almost double bus length.  That said, I recognize that even a rudimentary payload could be useful.

More than 15 months is a long time for SpaceX and Swarm Technologies, but we are talking about designing, manufacturing, and integrating a phased array with custom silicon.  Meanwhile, one-half of the D2D leadership (Ben Longmier) was on a crash course to design and manufacture the argon thrusters for the V2 satellites.  I would forgive a bit of lag time to introduce.

I think they started working on this way before the TMUS event. As far as Mission 8-1.  There has been no follow on Experimental applications for Group 8 launches since the initial approval on Dec. 1st.  One might expect them to have filed multiple applications just after the approval if Group 8 was the key indicator to D2D.

Offline raptorx2

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So here is my speculative viewpoint on this data.

Tranche #1 is already on orbit.  The launch from Vandenberg on Friday = brings the total of V2.0 Minis launched to date to  the magic number ~840.  my opinion, these were launched under the before-mentioned "German licensed payload" authority noted in their original Dec. 2022 FCC  [D2D] filing.  These Tranche #1 [D2D payloads] are not subject to FCC authority, there is no "US Market Entry" for these Tranche #1 payloads..  These will be operated in International Markets Only.

Now, they have completed Tranche #1 German licensed payloads, now they must launch (due to FCC rules and lease requirements) another Tranche #2 that is more or less duplicative of Tranche #1 that is US-flagged to provide service to the US AND OTHER INTERNATIONAL MARKETS approved by the FCC.

If anyone believes that it has taken SpaceX more then 15 months to design and build a [D2D} "2 way messaging/messaging app" capable satellite, while Lynks is doing [D2D] Messaging and Voice from what is effectively a Cube Sat. Then I will say they are either crazy, or SpaceX is incompetent.

If what you describe as Tranche #1 includes a German-licensed payload, I suspect that it is rudimentary.  The F9-3 configuration is a full 170 kg more than the F9-2 V2 mini configuration and has an almost double bus length.  That said, I recognize that even a rudimentary payload could be useful.

More than 15 months is a long time for SpaceX and Swarm Technologies, but we are talking about designing, manufacturing, and integrating a phased array with custom silicon.  Meanwhile, one-half of the D2D leadership (Ben Longmier) was on a crash course to design and manufacture the argon thrusters for the V2 satellites.  I would forgive a bit of lag time to introduce.

Well, here is a new "variable" to add to the equation Starlink D2D equation.

When the Experimental applications for 6-36, 6-37, 6-38 (Operations beginning Dec. 15th) were filed six weeks ago.  I glossed over them as they have become a very routine read.

But, I missed a very salient change.  Credit Salo for picking up this change.

Starlinks 6-36, 6-37, 6-38 are now RTLS.

Offline r1279

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Well, here is a new "variable" to add to the equation Starlink D2D equation.

When the Experimental applications for 6-36, 6-37, 6-38 (Operations beginning Dec. 15th) were filed six weeks ago.  I glossed over them as they have become a very routine read.

But, I missed a very salient change.  Credit Salo for picking up this change.

Starlinks 6-36, 6-37, 6-38 are now RTLS.

Perhaps I'm misreading something, I only see 6-35 and 6-36 as having RTLS options [looking at ELS]

[Edit: Wouldn't they (launch 8-1 and while performing initial validation of the first batch of F9-R3) just finish launching the Group 6 tranche of F9-R2.x and leave F9-R3/Direct-to-cell for Group 8 and beyond (group 9, group 10...), there are only a small number of Group 6 and even Group 7 launches left (from what has been filed)]
« Last Edit: 12/11/2023 09:38 pm by r1279 »

Offline OceanCat

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SpaceX submitted a supplement for the 30 day STA (SES-STA-2023-1201-02496). It appears they are waiting for the STA to be approved prior to the first launch. Antenna checkout the FCC authorized in the partial license grant is not enough.

Quote
SpaceX is excited to begin launching and testing its innovative new direct-to-cellular
capabilities, which will bring ubiquitous connectivity to consumers throughout the country and
around the world. Perhaps the most critical part of this testing will occur in the first few weeks
after launch, when SpaceX will assess the initial functionality of its direct-to-cellular antennas.
These robust initial check-out tests align with well-established space sustainability best practices
that the Commission has repeatedly found in the public interest.

To swiftly identify and respond to issues as they arise, these initial check-out tests require
flexibility, including the ability to test from a variety of locations and using a diversity of devices.1

Geographic flexibility will enable SpaceX personnel to conduct check-out tests as the satellites
phase across the sky in their early orbits, moving ground equipment as necessary for each satellite
pass or in the event of difficulties at any particular location. Each type of ground device will also
play a unique and essential role in the initial check-out testing. For example, the link-testing
devices will aid reliable satellite contact during the initial post-deployment period. The cellular
probes will help ensure that the satellite phased array hardware and software are functioning well.
And standard cell phones will help determine whether the satellite antenna is functioning as
intended using those devices’ unique modems and off-the-shelf specifications. Together, these
devices will allow SpaceX to conduct a thorough suite of check-out tests that are necessary to
ensure initial functionality of the satellite antenna.

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