Author Topic: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes  (Read 84088 times)

Online tbellman

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #240 on: 07/19/2023 03:16 pm »
Look up Fresnel lens. It's not a diffraction grating.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens
They are used extensively in theatre lighting instruments and in many other applications.

And relevant to telescope use, fresnel lenses are actually used in some telephoto photographic lenses.  At least Nikon and Canon makes a few such lenses for their cameras (including some that cost as much as a used car).  There are compromises to image quality by using fresnel lenses, but they are not huge.

Offline Lee Jay

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #241 on: 07/19/2023 03:31 pm »
So to my mind this seems like a giant diffraction grating focusing light? Is that right?
Look up Fresnel lens. It's not a diffraction grating.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens
They are used extensively in theatre lighting instruments and in many other applications.

This, however, appears to be a diffraction grating, such as that Canon has been producing in their "DO" (diffractive optics) line of lenses for many years.

https://global.canon/en/v-square/34.html

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #242 on: 07/19/2023 06:53 pm »
https://theconversation.com/a-new-thin-lensed-telescope-design-could-far-surpass-james-webb-goodbye-mirrors-hello-diffractive-lenses-206055

When I read this article my first thought was that it is really applicable to this topic.

I'm no expert on telescopes,  but It seems like a lense based design has a lot of benefits for a low cost fleet of space based telescopes.

I know I'm resurrecting a defunct thread but it fits well with the topic and it seems like a good time to revisit the discussion.

Note that the Nautilus concept (a 35-telescope network proposed by this group) shows a stack of satellites, pez dispenser-ready.

A Starlink engineer is on the team.

https://nautilus-array.space/nautilus-array/

Offline Star One

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #243 on: 08/09/2023 11:10 pm »
Nautilus - True Next Gen Space Telescope:


Offline floss

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #244 on: 08/18/2023 03:01 pm »
There is a bubble spare in parts that would be a better telescope than Hubble in nasa warehouses  right now that would be cheap to build and two more spy sats not being launched right now .

The spy says would be excellent for surveying the rocks that hit the moon and getting there spectra .

The spare parts Hubble would have better everything than Hubble simply by being the mark 2 and fixing the mistakes in the original .

Offline Jim

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #245 on: 08/18/2023 03:07 pm »
There is a bubble spare in parts that would be a better telescope than Hubble in nasa warehouses  r

there is no such thing

Offline floss

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #246 on: 08/18/2023 05:58 pm »
Second Hubble main mirror
There is a bubble spare in parts that would be a better telescope than Hubble in nasa warehouses  r

there is no such thing


Yes there is is I saw the second spare main  mirror on the news when    hubbles was found to be faulty the rest I guarantee is some where in  nasa somewhere .

This telescope would cos a fraction the price of Hubble simply because it has no development

Offline Jim

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #247 on: 08/18/2023 06:06 pm »

Yes there is is I saw the second spare main  mirror on the news when    hubbles was found to be faulty the rest I guarantee is some where in  nasa somewhere .

not in NASA, but in the Smithsonian


This telescope would cos a fraction the price of Hubble simply because it has no development

That would be wrong.  A completely new telescope and spacecraft would have to be development and the mirror would have to be finished.  The mirror was a small part of the over cost.
WFIRST is using an existing mirror and is costing $3-4 billion.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2023 06:07 pm by Jim »

Offline floss

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #248 on: 08/18/2023 06:52 pm »
W first was a one of a kind telescope I am talking about taking the plans of Hubble and just replicating it .

Only change needed is change the gyros for the newerr kind  launch on delta .

Online Comga

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #249 on: 08/18/2023 08:11 pm »
Second Hubble main mirror
There is a bubble spare in parts that would be a better telescope than Hubble in nasa warehouses

there is no such thing

Yes there is is I saw the second spare main  mirror on the news when    hubbles was found to be faulty the rest I guarantee is some where in  nasa somewhere .

This telescope would cos a fraction the price of Hubble simply because it has no development

Your statements are incorrect.
There was the second source Primary mirror from Kodak that does not have the conic constant error of the Perkin Elmer Primary currently in Hubble.
However that is pretty much irrelevant since SM-1 and COSTAR.  All subsequent instruments, axial and radial, are designed to achieve diffraction limited imaging or spectroscopy with the Pimary mirror "as-is".
A replacement with the same form (2.4m on-axis R-C) would be little better than the wonderful machine on orbit.
There is no spare hardware for a second telescope.
Any new version would need to have launch and deployment revised because the Shuttle and its astronauts are not available.

And, please, don't argue with Jim over facts.
Listen to what he says and learn from it.
Those of us with experience may argue with his opinions, but his statements are highly reliable. 
His statements about WFIRST are spot on, and that started with a finished Pimary AND Secondary mirror.

Edit: Those talking about diffractive optics far surpassing JWST should look up MOIRE.
This has been tried, and it's not trivial.
PS Don't take theconversation.com as a real reference for optical technology.  It's pretty light weight, as one might expect.
« Last Edit: 08/18/2023 08:19 pm by Comga »
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Offline Jim

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #250 on: 08/18/2023 08:41 pm »
W first was a one of a kind telescope I am talking about taking the plans of Hubble and just replicating it .

Only change needed is change the gyros for the newerr kind  launch on delta .

Wrong. Can't do that.  The company that made the telescope no longer exists and same goes for many of the subcontractors and components for it and the spacecraft.  Plus the Hubble was designed to fly on the shuttle and not a standard launch vehicle.  There are different load paths.   Can't expect to take plans from the 70's and 80's and make something 40-50 years later.  Can't do that with cars or airplanes.

Offline floss

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #251 on: 08/19/2023 02:16 am »
That  is one of the problems with NASA and why everything they do cost so much .

Every thing they do is a one of kind engineering example .

What is needed is a mass prduceced scope with an existing production line so you can upgrade it as you build the next one


Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #252 on: 08/19/2023 04:48 am »
That  is one of the problems with NASA and why everything they do cost so much .

Every thing they do is a one of kind engineering example .

What is needed is a mass prduceced scope with an existing production line so you can upgrade it as you build the next one

Ahem. There is no current production line or supply chain to support the line. Never mind the development required to design what is essentially a new space telescope. Plus finding someone to produce a series of primary space telescope mirrors, along with someone else to upgrade the telescope hardware and software for the service life of the telescopes. Of course before starting to design a space telescope, someone will have to fund the initial development and gather human resources to run the operation.





Offline jimvela

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #253 on: 08/19/2023 05:30 am »
And, please, don't argue with Jim over facts.
Listen to what he says and learn from it.
Those of us with experience may argue with his opinions, but his statements are highly reliable. 
His statements about WFIRST are spot on, and that started with a finished Pimary AND Secondary mirror.

In a similar vein, pay a good listen to Comga as well. 
He's actually built successful telescopes that are in space as well as help fix ones that were broken.

Some folks on these forums aren't armchair quarterbacks.

Offline Jim

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #254 on: 08/19/2023 01:50 pm »
That  is one of the problems with NASA and why everything they do cost so much .

Every thing they do is a one of kind engineering example .

What is needed is a mass prduceced scope with an existing production line so you can upgrade it as you build the next one


It isn't a "problem."  Just lack of understanding.

Because that is all NASA can do.   There is no reason for NASA to mass produce or have a production line for its spacecraft.  It doesn't have the money or budget authority to build fleets of HST, JWST or Mars rovers.
« Last Edit: 08/19/2023 01:52 pm by Jim »

Offline floss

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #255 on: 08/19/2023 07:34 pm »
He but by building these super scopes that  have removed funding from  cheaper scopes .

There Will never be more than nasa space scopes till the eight meter super scopes  become available and these cost billions each .

Small scopes just won't get funding  ever .

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #256 on: 08/20/2023 02:12 am »
He but by building these super scopes that  have removed funding from  cheaper scopes .

There Will never be more than nasa space scopes till the eight meter super scopes  become available and these cost billions each .

Small scopes just won't get funding  ever .
If there is continued over-subscription of the governmental scientific space telescopes in the future. Eventually someone other than NASA and ESA will consider producing a small batch of UV/visible light space telescopes along with the space and ground infrastructures to operate them. For a footnote in history like the "insert name(s) of certain eccentric Billionaire(s)" space astronomy observation constellation.

Offline Jim

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #257 on: 08/20/2023 01:21 pm »
He but by building these super scopes that  have removed funding from  cheaper scopes .

There Will never be more than nasa space scopes till the eight meter super scopes  become available and these cost billions each .

Small scopes just won't get funding  ever .


Smaller scope are funded and flying.   Kepler, TESS, IXPE, IRIS, NuSTAR, etc

Offline Ludus

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #258 on: 09/06/2023 05:29 pm »
What could a single Nautilus type Space Telescope with 8.5m lens if adapted for and launched into NEO, image on the ground? Maybe itís overkill and it would make more sense to mass produce them in a size that Starship could carry 4 or more stacks of them. It seems as though these would allow mass produced telescopes that could match the best that NRO billion dollar spy systems could do.

Offline Valerij Zhilisky

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Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #259 on: 09/09/2023 11:38 am »
What could a single Nautilus type Space Telescope with 8.5m lens if adapted for and launched into NEO, image on the ground? Maybe itís overkill and it would make more sense to mass produce them in a size that Starship could carry 4 or more stacks of them. It seems as though these would allow mass produced telescopes that could match the best that NRO billion dollar spy systems could do.
     
It's not "mass production", but serial production. And there is no need to try to launch serial telescopes in packs, they can be launched one by one as part of a prefabricated payload. In this way, you can reduce the price, due to the uniform loading of production, and launch telescopes with a larger aperture.
   


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