Author Topic: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes  (Read 84089 times)

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« on: 11/12/2019 06:26 pm »
"What if starship is unreasonably cheap?" spawned a space telescope discussion. Msg# 165+
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=49071.0

This is something I'm sure many of have thought a lot on.

We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #1 on: 11/12/2019 06:27 pm »
Quoted Post
People commuting to the moon to work for a few weeks, then spend a few weeks earth side. Lather, rinse, repeat.

8.5m Space telescopes would become common. Possibly even batch production. So many ideas on this.

In fact, I think not only would it be cheap to put telescopes in space, I think it would also be a necessity. Cheap spaceflight will fill the sky with satellites and spaceflights, and the necessity for huge ground telescopes would go away since much smaller space based telescopes and telescope arrays could do the job so much better, and maybe even cheaper.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #2 on: 11/12/2019 06:27 pm »
Quoted post
People commuting to the moon to work for a few weeks, then spend a few weeks earth side. Lather, rinse, repeat.

8.5m Space telescopes would become common. Possibly even batch production. So many ideas on this.

Imagine a common telescope design based off of multiple 8.5 meter width hexagonal mirrors stuck together forming a single reflector a la James Webb, and then a massive heliocentric constellation of those telescopes four AU wide forming a synthetic aperture the size of the inner solar system. I don't know how you could possibly operate an interferometer the size of a solar system but... what, if proxima centauri gives off 585 nm light and the aperture is almost 600 gigameters wide, that's about 1.2 attoradians of angular resolution. If Proxima B was the size of Earth and 400 petameters away then it would be 0.16 nanoradians wide in the sky... Maybe my math is super wrong but it looks like a telescope that powerful could resolve features as small as around 50 millimeters on the surface of Proxima B. Is this stupid? Sure feels stupid. You might need a few hundred thousand telescopes to collect enough light though.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #3 on: 11/12/2019 06:29 pm »
Quoted post
People commuting to the moon to work for a few weeks, then spend a few weeks earth side. Lather, rinse, repeat.

8.5m Space telescopes would become common. Possibly even batch production. So many ideas on this.

Imagine a common telescope design based off of multiple 8.5 meter width hexagonal mirrors stuck together forming a single reflector a la James Webb, and then a massive heliocentric constellation of those telescopes four AU wide forming a synthetic aperture the size of the inner solar system. I don't know how you could possibly operate an interferometer the size of a solar system but... what, if proxima centauri gives off 585 nm light and the aperture is almost 600 gigameters wide, that's about 1.2 attoradians of angular resolution. If Proxima B was the size of Earth and 400 petameters away then it would be 0.16 nanoradians wide in the sky... Maybe my math is super wrong but it looks like a telescope that powerful could resolve features as small as around 50 millimeters on the surface of Proxima B. Is this stupid? Sure feels stupid. You might need a few hundred thousand telescopes to collect enough light though.

I would do single 8.5m telescopes. We already have spacecraft with laser interferometers between them so this should be able to align the light paths to get a synthetic aperture. In fact I think the ligo in space proposal will use interferometers.

Resolution of telescope R=L/D L=wavelength D=diameter of mirror R=resolution in radians
so a 8m mirror gives:
580nm/8m = .015 arcsecs

so a 600*10^9 mirror would give:
580nm/(600*10^9m) = 2*10^-13 arcsec

So for proxima 4ly
 (4*365.25*24*60*60)*3*10^8m = 3.78*10^16m

so in radians from above:
1*10^-18 radians
1*10^-18 radians *3.78*10^16 m = .0378 m

So pretty close.
Only difference I get is
2au = 3*10^11 meters
not
6*10^11 you gave above.


 
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #4 on: 11/12/2019 06:30 pm »
Quoted post
People commuting to the moon to work for a few weeks, then spend a few weeks earth side. Lather, rinse, repeat.

8.5m Space telescopes would become common. Possibly even batch production. So many ideas on this.

Imagine a common telescope design based off of multiple 8.5 meter width hexagonal mirrors stuck together forming a single reflector a la James Webb, and then a massive heliocentric constellation of those telescopes four AU wide forming a synthetic aperture the size of the inner solar system. I don't know how you could possibly operate an interferometer the size of a solar system but... what, if proxima centauri gives off 585 nm light and the aperture is almost 600 gigameters wide, that's about 1.2 attoradians of angular resolution. If Proxima B was the size of Earth and 400 petameters away then it would be 0.16 nanoradians wide in the sky... Maybe my math is super wrong but it looks like a telescope that powerful could resolve features as small as around 50 millimeters on the surface of Proxima B. Is this stupid? Sure feels stupid. You might need a few hundred thousand telescopes to collect enough light though.

I would do single 8.5m telescopes. We already have spacecraft with laser interferometers between them so this should be able to align the light paths to get a synthetic aperture. In fact I think the ligo in space proposal will use interferometers.

Resolution of telescope R=L/D L=wavelength D=diameter of mirror R=resolution in radians
so a 8m mirror gives:
580nm/8m = .015 arcsecs

so a 600*10^9 mirror would give:
580nm/(600*10^9m) = 2*10^-13 arcsec

So for proxima 4ly
 (4*365.25*24*60*60)*3*10^8m = 3.78*10^16m

so in radians from above:
1*10^-18 radians
1*10^-18 radians *3.78*10^16 m = .0378 m

So pretty close.
Only difference I get is
2au = 3*10^11 meters
not
6*10^11 you gave above.


 

Wikipedia said 1.220 times the wavelength divided by the aperture size. Sorry I didn't write out in scientific or keep track of my sig figs. It's so hard in non-marked up text!
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #5 on: 11/12/2019 06:31 pm »
Quoted post
People commuting to the moon to work for a few weeks, then spend a few weeks earth side. Lather, rinse, repeat.

8.5m Space telescopes would become common. Possibly even batch production. So many ideas on this.

Imagine a common telescope design based off of multiple 8.5 meter width hexagonal mirrors stuck together forming a single reflector a la James Webb, and then a massive heliocentric constellation of those telescopes four AU wide forming a synthetic aperture the size of the inner solar system. I don't know how you could possibly operate an interferometer the size of a solar system but... what, if proxima centauri gives off 585 nm light and the aperture is almost 600 gigameters wide, that's about 1.2 attoradians of angular resolution. If Proxima B was the size of Earth and 400 petameters away then it would be 0.16 nanoradians wide in the sky... Maybe my math is super wrong but it looks like a telescope that powerful could resolve features as small as around 50 millimeters on the surface of Proxima B. Is this stupid? Sure feels stupid. You might need a few hundred thousand telescopes to collect enough light though.
Already on my mind... Lightweight heat and light shield tube that unfolds during deployment. Maneuvering ring that wraps around it at the center of mass to gross aim the telescope. Fine pointing by the optical part that free floats inside the tube during observations. During observations the outside tube maneuvers to keep the optical assembly in the middle of the tube. The big issue is the power cable between the tube assembly and the optical assembly. It can't impart force on the optical assembly. Want to start out with a batch of single mirror 8.5 meter telescopes to prove the technologies. You can think of the tube assembly as the observatory dome.

Yes, this:
I would do single 8.5m telescopes. We already have spacecraft with laser interferometers between them so this should be able to align the light paths to get a synthetic aperture. In fact I think the ligo in space proposal will use interferometers.

Resolution of telescope R=L/D L=wavelength D=diameter of mirror R=resolution in radians
so a 8m mirror gives:
580nm/8m = .015 arcsecs

so a 600*10^9 mirror would give:
580nm/(600*10^9m) = 2*10^-13 arcsec

So for proxima 4ly
 (4*365.25*24*60*60)*3*10^8m = 3.78*10^16m

so in radians from above:
1*10^-18 radians
1*10^-18 radians *3.78*10^16 m = .0378 m

So pretty close.
Only difference I get is
2au = 3*10^11 meters
not
6*10^11 you gave above.


 
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #6 on: 11/12/2019 06:32 pm »
Quoted post
Already on my mind... Lightweight heat and light shield tube that unfolds during deployment. Maneuvering ring that wraps around it at the center of mass to gross aim the telescope. Fine pointing by the optical part that free floats inside the tube during observations. During observations the outside tube maneuvers to keep the optical assembly in the middle of the tube. The big issue is the power cable between the tube assembly and the optical assembly. It can't impart force on the optical assembly. Want to start out with a batch of single mirror 8.5 meter telescopes to prove the technologies. You can think of the tube assembly as the observatory dome.



why not attach tube to optics? Seems simplier.

For sun shade, it could be free floating.
And for interstellar planets we will need a free floating starshade.
Vibrations from heating and cooling of the tube, solar panels, heat radiators, etc. They ran into issues with this with Hubble. I was thinking of making it a loose magnetic coupling, then I realized just make the tube a few meters bigger in diameter, and let the optical assembly float free in it during observations. They just need to keep their center of mass in the same spot so they orbit the same.

I use robot arms to hold onto the optical assembly when doing gross pointing maneuvers. During that time the optical assembly can unload it's reaction wheels.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #7 on: 11/12/2019 06:33 pm »
Quoted post
The issue with Hubble is that it's in LEO, so it deals with large temperature swings multiple times a day.  A big space telescope further out in solar orbit wouldn't have those issues.  I don't see physically attaching the tube as being much of an issue.
The tube is a bunch of poles with mylar of fabric stretched between them. Every time it moves it will vibrate for awhile. Think JWST solar heat shield but shaped into a tube, and made of more robust materials. I also have a tube of material like Bigelow is using on the outside of their inflatable habitats. It is the micro meteor shield.

I'm also thinking of many dozens of these telescopes going up into LEO. That is so they have easy communications back to earth via the Starlink network. The goals are to make them low cost, easy to make, easy to deploy, not dependent of dedicated ground support facilities, and spend the money where it brings the most bang for the buck, the optics assembly. These are the space equivalent of the turnkey internet telescope, but for institutions. Target audience is ground observatories, universities, and colleges. Yes, they could be sent out into higher orbits, but that costs more, and has communications and service issues. It could be an option for some batches. Just change the 2 communications modules, and change the 4 thruster modules. With Ion drives and large tanks it could move wherever.

I wonder if the astronomers that are complaining about Starlink also realize that Starlink is to be used to fund Starship which could potentially enable them to have vastly better space telescope capability down the road in space?

Also, one other possibility is having telescopes on the far side of the moon, which would be especially useful for radio telescopes, using the moon as a shield against interference from earth...
At least this amateur astronomer and some others do.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline DistantTemple

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2002
  • England
  • Liked: 1701
  • Likes Given: 2843
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #8 on: 11/12/2019 07:11 pm »
Quoted post
The issue with Hubble is that it's in LEO, so it deals with large temperature swings multiple times a day.  A big space telescope further out in solar orbit wouldn't have those issues.  I don't see physically attaching the tube as being much of an issue.
The tube is a bunch of poles with mylar of fabric stretched between them. Every time it moves it will vibrate for awhile. Think JWST solar heat shield but shaped into a tube, and made of more robust materials. I also have a tube of material like Bigelow is using on the outside of their inflatable habitats. It is the micro meteor shield.

I'm also thinking of many dozens of these telescopes going up into LEO. That is so they have easy communications back to earth via the Starlink network. The goals are to make them low cost, easy to make, easy to deploy, not dependent of dedicated ground support facilities, and spend the money where it brings the most bang for the buck, the optics assembly. These are the space equivalent of the turnkey internet telescope, but for institutions. Target audience is ground observatories, universities, and colleges. Yes, they could be sent out into higher orbits, but that costs more, and has communications and service issues. It could be an option for some batches. Just change the 2 communications modules, and change the 4 thruster modules. With Ion drives and large tanks it could move wherever.

I wonder if the astronomers that are complaining about Starlink also realize that Starlink is to be used to fund Starship which could potentially enable them to have vastly better space telescope capability down the road in space?

Also, one other possibility is having telescopes on the far side of the moon, which would be especially useful for radio telescopes, using the moon as a shield against interference from earth...
At least this amateur astronomer and some others do.
What is needed (forgive me lumping these together I know they are vastly different) is a Musk, Bezos, Allen, Maezarwa, character, that has a passion to advance astronomy wildly, and access to a good stack of Billions$. preferably with a deep personal engineering background. And adequate spare time to pivot onto this project.

It can't be Elon's priority, and its such a discrete and separate area that it would be a separate extra for SpaceX - (although with Starlink expertise, and SX's likely opening up of the (inner) Solar System to development over the next 20 years, telescopes of all sorts will contribute massively to prospecting, and planning etc.). - SX could get into this business if no one else does it.

It could be a company set up by SX staff setting up on their own with venture capital, and money made from Tesla shares etc, as of course they may double again in the next two years!

Gwynne Shotwell may start a side venture within SpaceX, as she clained a desire to send ships to other star systems in her lifetime. Despite the pace and focus of SPaceX's Starship, and Mars developments, she of all people has earned the right for a "vanity project" or "deep R&D".

Since high bandwidth data coms with Mars will be needed, SX "must" already be thinking of what satellites and systems they will use. Afterall by 2024 they will "definately" get Starships to Mars, and 2022 is not yet impossible. By 2026 there could be 200 or more humans there!

So Satellites with large mirrors for Laser coms, and large dishes for radio... some nice mirrors for telescopes would fit in well.

Elon has always talked about saving humanity and the planet (SX and Tesla). Building some earth-sciences sats including earth facing satellites, at a suitable price for poorer nations and organizations will help (IMO) this goal. Such a development fits well with outward facing sats for astronomy etc.

EM always seems to link everything to his far goals, making such telescopes link-able into a virtual telescope would support his expansion from Mars to...

SpaceX never says a great deal about their links to academia. They do have some. Maybe some links with a prestigious university - or conversely a link with a new or online university, that would overturn the status qoe there as well!  OK I'm rambling... and repeating what I've posted several times on other threads!
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline capoman

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 996
  • Ontario Canada
  • Liked: 1441
  • Likes Given: 1330
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #9 on: 11/12/2019 07:37 pm »
I don't think there is any shortage of earth facing telescopes, including many we may not even know of, but Starship will certainly make them cheaper to deploy.

I wouldn't be surprised if the laser links to be used on Starlink satellites could be used or modified for deep space communication, and that Elon may be planning on deploying Starlink/GPS style satellites on Mars/Moon in the future with the backbone to earth to support it. This could support telescopes a long way from earth.

But I really think the complaints of the ground telescopes and satellite "pollution" are only going to be short term since cheap access to space is going to open up a whole new space telescope industry and capability, and ground based telescopes will become second class telescopes. Having to clean up images by doing huge complex adaptive mirror schemes is going to seem archaic.
« Last Edit: 11/12/2019 07:40 pm by capoman »

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #10 on: 11/12/2019 07:43 pm »
OK, that's the relevant posts.

Goals:
Quality IR through UV observations possible.
Optical bench with multiple instruments.
Largest single piece mirror that can fit into a SpaceX Starship.
Low cost for size
Easy to make with many common modules.
Easy to deploy in LEO by a SS with a couple Canada Arms.
Not dependent on dedicated ground support facilities once setup.

Who are they for:
- Target audience is observatories, universities, and colleges.
- These are the space equivalent of the turnkey internet telescope, but for institutions.

On earth huge telescopes have a separate dome to protect them from the wind, etc. I saw it mentioned that even the Hubble Space Telescope had to deal with it's own form of disturbance from vibrations caused by heating and cooling of it's outer shell. That made me think how to decouple the two. Have a space telescope that is the optics, fine pointing reaction wheels, and minimal framework. Then have the Services Assembly that has the light and heat shields, solar arrays, thrusters, it's own coarse reaction wheels, etc. The two would be magnetically coupled. On when needing to slew the whole telescope. Off when the telescope is doing observations. The magnetic couplings would be on the ends of robotic arms so they can softly attach to the Optics Assembly. The services part will monitor the optical part's position and maneuver to keep it properly centered and pointing the same way. The Optics Assembly could be following an orbiting object so it is changing it's pointing vector.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Eka

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Land between two rivers.
  • Liked: 441
  • Likes Given: 864
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #11 on: 11/12/2019 07:59 pm »
I don't think there is any shortage of earth facing telescopes, including many we may not even know of, but Starship will certainly make them cheaper to deploy.
These are for looking out to the stars. Not at Earth.

In fact I was thinking as a security and safety feature it have the Services Assembly close the tube end shades if it ever points close to at the Earth, Moon, or Sun. This is because the light gathering ability of a 8.5 meter mirror could fry the optics with that much light coming in. They may need a fast closing solar shade in front of the optics bench in case a bright object goes by. These protections would be automatic, and not under control of any part able to be routinely controlled during observations.
I wouldn't be surprised if the laser links to be used on Starlink satellites could be used or modified for deep space communication, and that Elon may be planning on deploying Starlink/GPS style satellites on Mars/Moon in the future with the backbone to earth to support it. This could support telescopes a long way from earth.
With that you start getting dedicated hardware needed for communicating to the telescopes.
But I really think the complaints of the ground telescopes and satellite "pollution" are only going to be short term since cheap access to space is going to open up a whole new space telescope industry and capability, and ground based telescopes will become second class telescopes. Having to clean up images by doing huge complex adaptive mirror schemes is going to seem archaic.
That's what these telescopes are for. Putting world class observatories in space, but without breaking the bank.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline rsdavis9

Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #12 on: 11/12/2019 08:42 pm »
So how is data downloaded from the hubble now?
Deep space network?
Wait till it passes over the command center?

EDIT:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Space_Telescope#Transmission_to_Earth

Quote
Hubble data was initially stored on the spacecraft. When launched, the storage facilities were old-fashioned reel-to-reel tape recorders, but these were replaced by solid state data storage facilities during servicing missions 2 and 3A. About twice daily, the Hubble Space Telescope radios data to a satellite in the geosynchronous Tracking and Data Relay Satellite System (TDRSS), which then downlinks the science data to one of two 60-foot (18-meter) diameter high-gain microwave antennas located at the White Sands Test Facility in White Sands, New Mexico.[155] From there they are sent to the Space Telescope Operations Control Center at Goddard Space Flight Center, and finally to the Space Telescope Science Institute for archiving.[155] Each week, HST downlinks approximately 140 gigabits of data.[1]

So is the starlink constellation going to help space telescopes?
I would assume it would because they will act like TDRSS satellites(only a lot closer).

« Last Edit: 11/12/2019 08:50 pm by rsdavis9 »
With ELV best efficiency was the paradigm. The new paradigm is reusable, good enough, and commonality of design.
Same engines. Design once. Same vehicle. Design once. Reusable. Build once.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #13 on: 11/12/2019 09:12 pm »
*SNIP*
Putting world class observatories in space, but without breaking the bank.

For that you will need small mirrors in segments. Forget a monolithic 8.5 meter mirror, that WILL break the bank.

Segments mean you keep weight down. Lower weight means less cost. Segments are FAR easier to manufacture and handle, and you can make your telescopes arbitrarily large or small.

Hubble's primary mirror is 2.4 meters wide and weighs 1,825 pounds.

Each mirror segment on the JWST telescope is 1.32 meters wide and weighs 44 pounds.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline DistantTemple

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2002
  • England
  • Liked: 1701
  • Likes Given: 2843
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #14 on: 11/12/2019 10:39 pm »
I was thinking that a SpaceX telescope would need less advance setup of multiple mirror segments, because SX would likely build an AI system to adjust and then improve alignment.... that led to using AI for target selection to capture unexpected or unfolding events... which leads to having cooperative Ai or parts of an AI spread across a multitude of telescopes, to grow an awareness of the whole sky, record and catalogue similar events, and react quickly if needed. Tesla must be a leader in real time image processing. Can this be applied to astronomy?
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline Lee Jay

  • Elite Veteran
  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8567
  • Liked: 3606
  • Likes Given: 327
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #15 on: 11/12/2019 11:10 pm »
OK, that's the relevant posts.

Goals:
Quality IR through UV observations possible.
Optical bench with multiple instruments.
Largest single piece mirror that can fit into a SpaceX Starship.
Low cost for size
Easy to make with many common modules.
Easy to deploy in LEO by a SS with a couple Canada Arms.
Not dependent on dedicated ground support facilities once setup.

Who are they for:
- Target audience is observatories, universities, and colleges.
- These are the space equivalent of the turnkey internet telescope, but for institutions.

On earth huge telescopes have a separate dome to protect them from the wind, etc. I saw it mentioned that even the Hubble Space Telescope had to deal with it's own form of disturbance from vibrations caused by heating and cooling of it's outer shell. That made me think how to decouple the two. Have a space telescope that is the optics, fine pointing reaction wheels, and minimal framework. Then have the Services Assembly that has the light and heat shields, solar arrays, thrusters, it's own coarse reaction wheels, etc. The two would be magnetically coupled. On when needing to slew the whole telescope. Off when the telescope is doing observations. The magnetic couplings would be on the ends of robotic arms so they can softly attach to the Optics Assembly. The services part will monitor the optical part's position and maneuver to keep it properly centered and pointing the same way. The Optics Assembly could be following an orbiting object so it is changing it's pointing vector.



The cost of an 8.4m space telescope is almost independent of the cost of the launch.  Several billion each, easy.  Probably closer to 10 billion.  If the launch is free or 250 million makes almost no difference in total for the project.

Offline RotoSequence

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2208
  • Liked: 2068
  • Likes Given: 1535
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #16 on: 11/12/2019 11:18 pm »
The cost of an 8.4m space telescope is almost independent of the cost of the launch.  Several billion each, easy.  Probably closer to 10 billion.  If the launch is free or 250 million makes almost no difference in total for the project.

Half the purpose is figuring out how to turn these bespoke wonder instruments into relatively inexpensive observatories. What needs to get cheaper to slice four orders of magnitude off the price, without compromising the essential function of the instruments?

Online Asteroza

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Liked: 1092
  • Likes Given: 33
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #17 on: 11/13/2019 02:30 am »
See the OCCAMS research, on using an artificial muscle polymer backed thin film mirror sheets, allowing active adaptive optics. Stringing up a triangular thin film object on arms is not too hard either, see Falconsat-7. So, bring a roll of mirror that will fit, then unroll.

As for the overall structure, considering sunshade, look at some of the work on the DARPA MOIRE project, which has an interesting sunshade/tube system that is also roll based.

Offline Twark_Main

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3683
  • Technically we ALL live in space
  • Liked: 1909
  • Likes Given: 1201
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #18 on: 11/13/2019 02:58 am »
I was thinking that a SpaceX telescope would need less advance setup of multiple mirror segments, because SX would likely build an AI system to adjust and then improve alignment....

"AI" is not magic. If the actuators don't have enough precision, AI can't fix that. If the support structure doesn't have enough stability, AI can't fix that.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline RotoSequence

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2208
  • Liked: 2068
  • Likes Given: 1535
Re: Low Cost Batch Built Space Telescopes
« Reply #19 on: 11/13/2019 03:15 am »
Just to throw this one out there with the hopes of someone with relevant engineering experience coming across it - is there a family of engineered wood products that would be suitable for large telescope blanks?

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1