Author Topic: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5  (Read 338465 times)

Offline rsdavis9

I think it is almost a given that the place for BFR static fires will be in Boca Chica. The first flight to orbit will (probably) be 39a.
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Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #541 on: 10/01/2017 01:40 pm »
I think it is almost a given that the place for BFR static fires will be in Boca Chica. The first flight to orbit will (probably) be 39a.

Note that the FAA has not given SpaceX permission to do BFR static fires in Boca Chica.  The current EIS only allows up to Falcon Heavy, and even then they only allow 2 FH launches per year.

To get permission to do anything with BFR at the Boca Chica launch site, SpaceX would need to ask the FAA to amend the EIS, and that would require a public comment period, which we haven't seen yet. 

Offline guckyfan

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #542 on: 10/01/2017 01:45 pm »
I think thrust of the BFS, the upper stage, would be in that range and it could be done at Boca Chica. They would need to have that 2 launches with high thrust limitation removed.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #543 on: 10/01/2017 01:54 pm »
Launching and landing BFR and BFS off of floating platforms seems unlikely to me...

Now... fixed platforms offshore could in theory work... and the oil industry has shown that is possible in deep water with enough $$$$...  But the logistics feeding the beast and servicing the beast... oh my...  :o

Right.  In the video, it looked more like a fixed platform to me.

But I don't think it would need to be in deep water.  Just a few miles off the coast would do it.  At that distance, they could run underwater cables and pipelines for servicing.  For example, during the D-Day invasion of WWII, they ran a flexible pipeline across the English channel that stretched 100 miles in just 1 day.

If they did something like that at Boca Chica, getting approval may be a lot easier.

It would also be a lot easier to get the BFR itself from a seaport to the launch site.  If they launch BFR from land at Boca Chica, they may need to build some type of special road from the Brownsville shipping channel that could accommodate a 30-foot diameter spaceship with delta wings that make it even wider.

So one possibility is that SpaceX would scrap the launch site at Boca Chica altogether and instead opt for a fixed platform a few miles offshore.  In that case, they would still need the Boca Chica control center area and tracking station, but the launch site itself would be re-purposed or scrapped.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2017 02:05 pm by Dave G »

Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #544 on: 10/01/2017 02:11 pm »
Let's stay focused on Boca Chica Texas launch site discussions, please. Veering off into BFR fixed pads offshore of NYC or wherever is a bit off topic.
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Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #545 on: 10/01/2017 02:31 pm »
Veering off into BFR fixed pads offshore of NYC or wherever is a bit off topic.

I think discussing the possibility of an off-shore pad for BFR at Boca Chica is on-topic.

Elon just stated that they intend to stop using F9 and FH, and it seems like this will happen in the 2022-2024 time frame, if all goes well.

The Boca Chica launch site isn't approved for BFR.  In fact, Falcon Heavy is already 2dB over the allowed sound level for local residents of Boca Chica Village, but the EIS made an exception because:
1) There are only 2 FH launches allowed per year.
2) There are not many local residents in Boca Chica Village.
3) SpaceX offered to give hearing protection to all local residents.

We don't know the specifics of BFR, but it's fair to assume it would be a lot more than 2dB over the legal limit, potentially making approvals much harder.

And if they limit BFR to 2 launches per year like FH, that wouldn't be viable.

Also, when SpaceX originally evaluated the launch site area, it may not have been as obvious how shifty the underlying soil is.  To get a stable launch pad at the current launch site, they may have to drill footings up to 1000 feet deep to reach stable ground. That may turn out to be somewhat equivalent to building a launch platform a few miles offshore from the currently planned launch site.

So a fixed launch platform a few miles offshore from Boca Chica could solve a lot of problems.  I'm not saying this is a sure thing, but it's definitely within the realm of possibility.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2017 02:36 pm by Dave G »

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #546 on: 10/01/2017 02:52 pm »

To get permission to do anything with BFR at the Boca Chica launch site, SpaceX would need to ask the FAA to amend the EIS, and that would require a public comment period, which we haven't seen yet.

Falcon heavy class thrust takeoffs with limited fuel to hop to an offshore pad would seem in principle possible for both booster and spacecraft.
This does require them to be very confident at landings, of course, as it adds several extra on per flight.


Offline Lar

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #547 on: 10/01/2017 02:55 pm »
Dave G: Agreed. We were veering into general BFR discussion though.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2017 02:55 pm by Lar »
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Offline Semmel

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #548 on: 10/01/2017 07:25 pm »
So a fixed launch platform a few miles offshore from Boca Chica could solve a lot of problems.  I'm not saying this is a sure thing, but it's definitely within the realm of possibility.

I think there is some merit behind this. What would become of the Boca Chica base if BFR cant launch from there? It probably can still provide payload processing but how do they get a payload from the land to the launcher? Would they need a private harbour?

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #549 on: 10/01/2017 07:48 pm »
What would become of the Boca Chica base if BFR cant launch from there?

Maybe they could still use the launch site area to store oxygen, methane, and the water tower for the deluge system, and then pipe that out to the launch platform.  That's a total guess.

It probably can still provide payload processing but how do they get a payload from the land to the launcher?

Actually, the current plans in the EIS put most of the payload processing in the control center area.  From the EIS:
"Payload Processing Facilities
The payload processing facilities would be used to conduct final processing of payloads prior to integrating them with the launch vehicle. This processing would include final spacecraft checkouts, RF checks, payload fueling, and other activities as required. The facilities would be designed to support the processing of two payloads simultaneously, to allow for a better throughput. Each building would be approximately 14,669 ft2 and 65-85 ft in height"

But if they did end up with an offshore platform, my guess is that they would move these Payload Processing Facilities to the Brownsville sea port, integrate the payload with the rocket there, and then ship it to the offshore launch platform.

Would they need a private harbour?

The area surrounding the launch site and control center is environmentally protected wetlands, so a private harbor would be extremely unlikely.

But as I've said before, the Port of Brownsville is world class, and handles aircraft carriers and huge drilling rigs, so it could handle BFR easily.

Again, all of this is total speculation on my part, but it could solve a lot of issues with FAA approvals and with getting BFR to the launch pad.
« Last Edit: 10/01/2017 07:56 pm by Dave G »

Offline Semmel

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #550 on: 10/01/2017 08:29 pm »
Any idea how we could find out if BFR can launch from Boca Chica or not? I am looking for clues here that could disprove one of the two hypotehsis:

1. BFR will launch from the Boca Chica facilities SpaceX is currently building
2. BFR will launch from a sea platform near Boca Chica

What action we can see would indicate one or the other?

Offline Austin Dave

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #551 on: 10/02/2017 02:18 am »
Has anybody determined the effect that BFR would have on South Padre Island?  From what I understand the Raptor engine will have about 3 times the thrust of the Merlin engine.  If the BFR has 31 engines versus 27 in FH that works out to 3.4 times the thrust.  That will have a significant impact on Boca Chica Village and it seems like it would have some impact on SPI as well.

I'm starting to wonder if SpaceX is having second thoughts about the Boca Chica location.  Maybe the building that they are putting up around the crane parts is just intended to store the crane until they need it later on at another location.  I find it puzzling that SpaceX has not been promoting the Boca Chica site lately.

Hopefully we'll see some construction activity soon, but if nothing happens in the next year one would have to wonder what SpaceX is planning for Boca Chica.

Offline envy887

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #552 on: 10/02/2017 02:26 am »
FH thrust is 22.8 MN at liftoff, vs 53.0 MN for BFR. Ratio of 2.3x.

Offline SPITexas

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #553 on: 10/02/2017 03:09 am »
Has anybody determined the effect that BFR would have on South Padre Island?  From what I understand the Raptor engine will have about 3 times the thrust of the Merlin engine.  If the BFR has 31 engines versus 27 in FH that works out to 3.4 times the thrust.  That will have a significant impact on Boca Chica Village and it seems like it would have some impact on SPI as well.

I'm starting to wonder if SpaceX is having second thoughts about the Boca Chica location.  Maybe the building that they are putting up around the crane parts is just intended to store the crane until they need it later on at another location.  I find it puzzling that SpaceX has not been promoting the Boca Chica site lately.

Hopefully we'll see some construction activity soon, but if nothing happens in the next year one would have to wonder what SpaceX is planning for Boca Chica.

I totally agree with you, so if there gonna want this site to launch the BFR they need to start Contruction like now.

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #554 on: 10/02/2017 12:46 pm »
Has anybody determined the effect that BFR would have on South Padre Island?

South Padre Island is 5+ miles away from the launch site, so I don't think there's much of an issue there.

The main problem: Some of the local residents in Boca Chica Village live less than 2 miles from the launch site.  So if SpaceX wants to launch something a lot bigger than Falcon Heavy from the current launch site, the FAA may require them to buy up all of the 36 houses in Boca Chica Village.

Also, since it's located right next to a public beach, they're not allowed to launch on any weekends or holidays between Memorial Day and Labor Day.  Each Mars mission would require ~6 launches (1 for spaceship, and 5 for tankers to refuel in LEO).  So if a 2-year Mars window opens up during the summer, the beach closing rules may really limit things.

A launch platform a few miles offshore may solve these issues.  The Control Center and Stargate tracking station would still be in Boca Chica Village, and the current launch site may still be used to store things, but again this is all just speculation on my part.

Offline philw1776

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #555 on: 10/02/2017 04:59 pm »
Note that it's quite shallow for tens of miles out from Boca Chica.  I've been since pre 2016 announcement in the camp that says aside from possible first flights, moving offshore is a necessity for a robust, less regulation bound, BFR launch cadence, one needed for Mars and likely for the communications satellite constellation.  A platform could be anchored in shallow water off Boca much more easily than a North Sea oil platform.  Payload integration, launch control, remains as currently visualized on land at Boca.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2017 05:00 pm by philw1776 »
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Offline Semmel

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #556 on: 10/03/2017 12:49 pm »
Any idea how we could find out if BFR can launch from Boca Chica or not? I am looking for clues here that could disprove one of the two hypotehsis:

1. BFR will launch from the Boca Chica facilities SpaceX is currently building
2. BFR will launch from a sea platform near Boca Chica

What action we can see would indicate one or the other?

I want to add an other hypothesis:
3. F9 will launch from Boca Chica

Thinking about this. Sorry to quote my self but I want to find some indicators for the hypothesis. Whether Boca Chica is BFR only or mixed pad or F9 only, we probably will not know until the pad is almost finished. So thats not a good indicator. Unless all work on the pad stops, which would indicate that the launch site development is cancelled but does not indicate how BFR launches.

How would we know BFR will launch from a sea-platform?
* SpaceX buys oil rigs or even larger barges. Not sure we would see any of this even if it happens
* SpaceX hires people with oil rig experience
* SpaceX is taking up shop at the harbour with way more equipment than would be needed for F9 first stages processing

How would we know BFR launches from the launch pad?
* We see the horizontal integration facility with 9m tall and 14m wide doors.
* We see the a new environmentalism analysis for BFR sized rockets
* SpaceX asks the residents of Boca Chica kindly to agree they leave their houses during launch operations
* They try to buy all the houses for double or tripple the normal prices to compensate residents for moving away
* We see a CH4 pipeline from the new refinery to the launch complex
* We see CH4 equipment like additional CH4 liquidization, sub-cooling and storage tanks

How do we know if F9 will launch from Boca Chica?:
* There need to be RP1 equipment, not sure if that is easily identifiable though
* Helium tanks, pipes and cooling facilities. This one might be the most telling if the launch platform is dual use or BFR only if BFR launches from land. If there is helium equipment, there is F9.
* A TEL is constructed that matches the one on 39A


Are there any more ideas?

Offline Dave G

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #557 on: 10/03/2017 01:51 pm »
* We see the a new environmentalism analysis for BFR sized rockets

For me, this is the key.

Other decisions and approvals may be done privately, behind closed doors, and we would never know.

But any amendments to the EIS would require a public comment period well in advance of any construction, so this is the probably first way we would know for sure.

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #558 on: 10/03/2017 01:54 pm »
I would speculate 1 and then both 1 and 2 later...  ???

First pad BFR only is on land there and is the development test pad at first...
Pad has all the bells and whistles including passenger access added by the time that's needed... 

Offshore... as flight rate grows... Tanker only pads/bases are developed... several of them...

I say this because tanker flights will dominate the manifest by 2030...

Just my opinion where this is going...  ;)

On edit...
SpaceX needs a BFR type enabled pad to start testing... SOON...
Can double as the Booster static fire stand to start with also...
I could even see BFS's test hopping off that pad (w/ special mounts) and landing nearby...
(note suborbital test BFS's would have 6 SL engines and max ~800tonnes prop in this test config)

Just clarifying my thought process that led to the above statement...  ;)
« Last Edit: 10/03/2017 02:23 pm by John Alan »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: SpaceX Texas launch site Discussion and Updates - Thread 5
« Reply #559 on: 10/03/2017 01:54 pm »
* We see the a new environmentalism analysis for BFR sized rockets

For me, this is the key.

Other decisions and approvals may be done privately, behind closed doors, and we would never know.

But any amendments to the EIS would require a public comment period well in advance of any construction, so this is the probably first way we would know for sure.
Boca Chica can support suborbital test flights under the current EIS, BTW.
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