Author Topic: Scaling Agriculture on Mars  (Read 574108 times)

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2120 on: 05/04/2023 07:45 pm »
...
Alex Tolley wrote a couple of posts on Centauri Dreams about Martian farming based on regolith as opposed to hydroponics:

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2023/01/26/food-production-on-mars-dirt-farming-as-the-most-scalable-solution-for-settlement/

https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2023/01/31/marmie-the-martian-regolith-microbiome-inoculation-experiment/

The memory is hazy but I do remember an article not too long ago about genetic engineering rice (I think) to better withstand perchlorates.

Bingo.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2121 on: 05/08/2023 01:55 pm »
Perchlorates aren't really a difficult problem. They can be broken down by bacteria in regular composting, or (more likely) rinsed out while you're washing the incoming regolith to mitigate salinity, which you need to do anyway.

Even if the rice isn't bothered by the perchlorates, the humans certainly will be! Even low levels (introduced via plant uptake and/or cross-contamination) will cause thyroid dysfunction.

Save the costly genetic engineering for the really hard problems, ones where we don't already have superior low-tech fixes.
« Last Edit: 05/08/2023 02:09 pm by Twark_Main »
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Offline LMT

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2122 on: 05/08/2023 04:27 pm »

Offline freda

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2123 on: 05/08/2023 04:38 pm »
In addition to agriculture options, there are also options for aquaculture.  I recall a paper or lecture where aquaculture was promoted over pure agriculture.  What is the general consensus?

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2124 on: 05/08/2023 05:08 pm »
In addition to agriculture options, there are also options for aquaculture.  I recall a paper or lecture where aquaculture was promoted over pure agriculture.  What is the general consensus?
Never much of a consensus on these forums!  However, there is still plenty of energy left in biomass that humans cannot use as food.  Most plants yield about 50% as edible biomass at best.  So that leaves almost as much mass available to fish, insects, bacteria or small animals to convert biomass into food.  Now, you would probably want to use some of that biomass to increase the quality of the soil (in a sense, feeding bacteria), but aquaculture is definitively a possibility.

There are a number of suggestions upthread, mostly proposing Tilapia.


Offline notthebobo

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2125 on: 05/11/2023 01:54 am »
However, there is still plenty of energy left in biomass that humans cannot use as food.  Most plants yield about 50% as edible biomass at best.
The biomass should be considered for more than just food, too. Consider flax, whose seeds have significant nutritional value, but the stalks can be used for linen, increasing the overall percentage of useful mass. A self-sustaining colony will (theoretically) need to clothe itself as well as feed itself.

Offline spacenut

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2126 on: 05/11/2023 02:41 am »
A lot of great ideas, but they will all take a lot of greenhouses on Mars. 

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2127 on: 05/11/2023 02:09 pm »
However, there is still plenty of energy left in biomass that humans cannot use as food.  Most plants yield about 50% as edible biomass at best.
The biomass should be considered for more than just food, too. Consider flax, whose seeds have significant nutritional value, but the stalks can be used for linen, increasing the overall percentage of useful mass. A self-sustaining colony will (theoretically) need to clothe itself as well as feed itself.
Yes, biomass will be a precious resource and there will be competition for its use:  Plastics, alcohols, biological reactors and even methane production for fuel can all use biomass.   Soil needs biomass for both food to bacteria and structure for aeration. Animals, insects and bacteria can all convert biomass to protein. And as you mention fibers can be used directly, and no doubt many other plant products.

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2128 on: 05/20/2023 06:06 pm »
What's really needed is massive amounts of power. As much power as can be got solar, nuclear or any other source. It will be needed for almost everything. For propellant production, water and air purification, life support, lighting, communications, materials processing and of course agriculture.

With enough power the other problems of agriculture on Mars would be hugely simplified. 
My optimistic hope is that it will become cool to really think about things... rather than just doing reactive bullsh*t based on no knowledge (Brian Cox)

Offline Eka

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2129 on: 05/24/2023 12:42 am »
Been reading old posts. I saw cattle mentioned.

Cattle are very inefficient at meat production, but they can eat many things non ruminants can't eat, and milk cows produce lots of milk as a byproduct. I'd hold off few decades before bringing them. Ruminants can eat food production refuse like bean stalks, pecan hulls, wheat chaff, corn stalks, etc. It may be better to initially go with smaller ruminants like goats. They can produce milk too.

Fish are the most efficient, but swim bladders in the lower gravity could be can issue. Catfish could eat most of what cattle eat, but the food would need to be made into pellets for feeding. Fish poo can be fed into hydroponics systems.

Poultry require more food per pound of meat than fish, and should ship well. To keep their legs in good shape, put them in a 8.5 meter diameter centrifuge. The food they need directly competes with us.

Pigs directly compete with us for food, but can be fed table scraps and out of date foods. They are between poultry and cattle in lbs meat per lbs of food consumed.

Artificial insemination and fertilized eggs can be used to greatly increase the biodiversity of any animal, poultry, or fish species. One would only need to ship a few cows, say 10. Then transplant fertilized eggs into them to build out a large diverse herd fast. Artificial insemination can be used for later generations. BTW, many different species of cows could be transplanted to Mars this way.

Artificial wombs are being developed now. When they are mature, they could be used to start new species on Mars.
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Offline Eka

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2130 on: 05/24/2023 01:51 am »
However, there is still plenty of energy left in biomass that humans cannot use as food.  Most plants yield about 50% as edible biomass at best.
The biomass should be considered for more than just food, too. Consider flax, whose seeds have significant nutritional value, but the stalks can be used for linen, increasing the overall percentage of useful mass. A self-sustaining colony will (theoretically) need to clothe itself as well as feed itself.
Yes, biomass will be a precious resource and there will be competition for its use:  Plastics, alcohols, biological reactors and even methane production for fuel can all use biomass.   Soil needs biomass for both food to bacteria and structure for aeration. Animals, insects and bacteria can all convert biomass to protein. And as you mention fibers can be used directly, and no doubt many other plant products.
Plastics can be created from CH4, heat, pressure, and chemicals. Oil sourced plastics often start with longer chain hydrocarbons, but nothing prevents starting with the shortest. It just takes longer, and more energy to lengthen the hydro carbons.

Oils can be created via thermal depolymerization of organic wastes. Also methane is produced. Throw your scrap plastics in, and get oils back out.

Cows normally belch out lots of methane which would need to be filtered out of their air, or they will get sick.

Goats can be raised for their hair, and hides, as well as milk and meat. Similar for sheep, but they are more restricted in diet. Alpaca have nicer wool, but less milk production.

Hemp is maybe better than flax for fiber production. When grown widely spread between plants, it creates finer fibers and large amounts of seeds, plus the seeds are extremely nutritious. It will grow in very poor soils. The biggest issue is the fibers need to be put out to rot for awhile to breakup the lignin between them. There are chemical methods to do the same. Hemp fibers are very durable and long lived, and can be recycled from use to use to use. In fact the draft of the US Constitution which was written on hemp paper who's fibers likely saw previous uses as rope, then sail cloth, then clothing, then finally paper. Yes, we can learn from our past.
We talk about creating a Star Trek future, but will end up with The Expanse if radical change doesn't happen.

Offline Barley

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2131 on: 05/24/2023 04:38 am »
A self-sustaining colony will (theoretically) need to clothe itself as well as feed itself.

The best part is no part.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2132 on: 05/26/2023 03:15 pm »
Cattle are very inefficient at meat production...

The principle in this post needs to be taken into account:

There will be a tension between the engineers who operate the station and the theorists who want to optimize each structure for some particular property.

Efficiency within reason.

Personally, I was informally thinking that  chickens might be a good "first" meat production facility.  Cows may not be as "efficient", but they are also a well known meat production entity.  I think the fish bladder problem will have to be studied empirically.  All of these meat sources have no genetic history in other than one gee requirements, and will end up being bred to purpose.

Oh.  And hemp is.  Not to minimize trees, corn and other plant life.
« Last Edit: 05/26/2023 03:17 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Barley

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2133 on: 05/26/2023 05:23 pm »
I think the fish bladder problem will have to be studied empirically.  All of these meat sources have no genetic history in other than one gee requirements, and will end up being bred to purpose.
What exactly is the fish bladder problem?

The swim bladder issues I am aware of are due to pressure.  Neutral buoyancy is neutral under any reasonable gravity.  Swimming pools are used to simulate zero and low gee.  At a first guess I'd think fish are more likely than most to not care about low or high gee.  If swim bladders are a problem, you could try sharks.

Offline Paul451

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2134 on: 05/26/2023 10:52 pm »
I think the fish bladder problem will have to be studied empirically. [...]
What exactly is the fish bladder problem?
The swim bladder issues I am aware of are due to pressure.  Neutral buoyancy is neutral under any reasonable gravity.  Swimming pools are used to simulate zero and low gee.  At a first guess I'd think fish are more likely than most to not care about low or high gee.  If swim bladders are a problem, you could try sharks.

Japanese research on fish on ISS didn't seem to show any swimming issues with fish under zero-g, hard to see how Mars-g would be worse.

[The fish lost their sense of orientation for a few days, but that wasn't due to issues with their swim-bladder. And they adapted by adopting the lighting as "up". They were more prone than mammals to lose bone-mass in zero-g.]

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2135 on: 05/29/2023 01:46 pm »

What exactly is the fish bladder problem?

That the fish bladder was designed to solve buoyancy problems in one gee.  As I often point out, many of the subgee "problems", like human reproduction, will have to be solved empirically.

Quote from: Barley
The swim bladder issues I am aware of are due to [b
pressure[/b].  Neutral buoyancy is neutral under any reasonable gravity.  Swimming pools are used to simulate zero and low gee.  At a first guess I'd think fish are more likely than most to not care about low or high gee.  If swim bladders are a problem, you could try sharks.

Well, first, they're going to start with smaller fish, not apex predators. The air pressure of the bladder is determined by local gravity forces.  There will be pressure differentials due to gravity.  Nobody knows how fish behavior will be affected.  Finally, swimming pools simulate zero gee for humans, not for fish.

Edit, after reading Paul451's comment:  I guess the fish won't be that discombobulated.  We still don't know about fish reproduction in sub-gee environments.   
« Last Edit: 05/29/2023 01:49 pm by JohnFornaro »
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2136 on: 05/29/2023 02:23 pm »

What exactly is the fish bladder problem?

That the fish bladder was designed to solve buoyancy problems in one gee.

...

Edit, after reading Paul451's comment:  I guess the fish won't be that discombobulated.

Really it should come as no surprise that this doesn't discombobulate the fish. Although the fish's swim bladder will provide less change in buoyancy, it also needs less change in buoyancy to achieve control (because all buoyancy values are reduced by the same fraction).

Essentially everything "cancels out," and the only difference becomes the fact that pressure increases more slowly with depth.
« Last Edit: 05/29/2023 02:24 pm by Twark_Main »
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Offline sghill

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2137 on: 06/04/2023 12:58 pm »
Perchlorates aren't really a difficult problem. They can be broken down by bacteria in regular composting, or (more likely) rinsed out while you're washing the incoming regolith to mitigate salinity, which you need to do anyway.

Even if the rice isn't bothered by the perchlorates, the humans certainly will be! Even low levels (introduced via plant uptake and/or cross-contamination) will cause thyroid dysfunction.

Save the costly genetic engineering for the really hard problems, ones where we don't already have superior low-tech fixes.

If you want to kill two birds with one stone.

Regolith won't become soil unless you import fungi (not hard, you can buy concentrated bottles of the stuff at any hydroponics store) to bind sterile rock into fertile soil.  Fungi are pretty good at reducing perchlorates.

This research result below from 2022 specifically tested fungi in simulated Martian conditions.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2022.992077/full

"Evidence from recent Mars landers identified the presence of perchlorates salts at 1 wt % in regolith and their widespread distribution on the Martian surface that has been hypothesized as a critical chemical hazard for putative life forms. However, the hypersaline environment may also potentially preserve life and its biomolecules over geological timescales. The high concentration of natural perchlorates is scarcely reported on Earth. The presence of perchlorates in soil and ice has been recorded in some extreme environments including the McMurdo Dry Valleys in Antarctica, one of the best terrestrial analogues for Mars. In the frame of “Life in space” Italian astrobiology project, the polyextremophilic black fungus Cryomyces antarcticus, a eukaryotic test organism isolated from the Antarctic scamendolithic communities, has been tested for its resistance, when grown on different hypersaline substrata. In addition, C. antarcticus was grown on Martian relevant perchlorate medium (0.4 wt% of Mg(ClO4)2 and 0.6 wt% of Ca(ClO4)2) to investigate the possibility for the fungus to survive in Martian environment. Here, the results indicate a good survivability and metabolic activity recovery of the black fungus when grown on four Martian relevant perchlorates. A low percentage of damaged cellular membranes have been found, confirming the ultrastructural investigation."

P.S. Hey Mods, How about a new thread for this topic? This has always been my favorite, and we are now several thousand replies in!
« Last Edit: 06/04/2023 01:00 pm by sghill »
Bring the thunder!

Offline notthebobo

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2138 on: 06/04/2023 04:05 pm »
Your point brings up the key to colonization, after creating a place of contained atmosphere protected from radiation: creating soil from regolith. Honestly, I think it is the harder task.

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Scaling Agriculture on Mars
« Reply #2139 on: 06/04/2023 09:16 pm »
Instead of "bacteria" I really should have said "bacteria, fungi, protozoa, nematodes, microathropods, mycorrhizal fungi, worms, and beetles."




The advantage of composting is that it's fast. The bog standard Berkeley composting method converts food scraps and plant waste into soil in only 18 days.

It would be a good idea to add a quantity of native regolith to the compost. The minerals will feed the soil organisms (which will begin specializing for the local geology) , and the perchlorates will stimulate perchlorate-eating species. At the end ot the composting process, no perchlorates remain in the material.


You can decontaminate large amounts of regolith this way, but it's hard. Easier to just rinse it out. You recycle the rinsewater after filtering salt with RO, and the brine goes to the chemical plant for its valuable elements.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

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