Author Topic: National Space Council Reestablished  (Read 98123 times)

Offline joek

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #200 on: 02/24/2018 04:53 pm »
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Other Transaction Agreeements or OTAs represent a different approach, not subject to the oversight required by federal contracts. OTAs provide flexibility but also increase risk of reduced accountability and transparency. For this reason, the vast majority of them are relatively low value. Notable exceptions include Commercial Orbital Transportation System (COTS) and the Commercial Crew development program, both at NASA. During COTS, the government invested a substantial amount of the cost and left development in the hands of private enterprise. The resulting system were developed at much less cost to the government than a traditional cost plus contract would have achieved. The story is less clear with the crewed system however, where the balance between contractor descretion, government insight and the risk to human lives continue to be debated.

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Error: Commercial Crew is not using OTA in its current phase (CCtCAP), so using it as an example of OTA is wrong.
She did state "Notable exceptions include Commercial Orbital Transportation System (COTS) and the Commercial Crew development program...", aka, CCDev, which is correct.

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Omission: OTA was (and is) also used by Air Force in their EELV program, which is nothing but low value.
While relatively high value OTA efforts (EELV, COTS, CCDev) occurred in the past, Congress subsequently imposed restrictions; specifically, percentage of spend required by USG vs. OTA awardees; past is not indicative of current or future state options.

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Semi-erroneous: My interpretation of her phrasing "The story is less clear" is that she thinks unlike COTS, Commercial Crew is not achieving low cost when compared to cost plus, if this interpretation is correct then this is also wrong given the huge cost difference between Orion and CC.
Arguable.  The "...risk to human lives..." seems out of place but likely to resonate with some.  Her use of the "...traditional cost plus contract..." in that context vs. e.g., "...traditional FAR contract..." is the most questionably IMO.

Is she arguing that the CCtCap contract vehicle is incorrect (FAR FFP) because NASA ceded too much control (insight-oversight-whatever), or that NASA can only obtain the necessary control with a different contract vehicle (e.g., FAR cost+)?

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Twisted logic: The whole reason CC is delayed is because it's under FAR and NASA is imposing changes, now this delay is being used to prove OTA doesn't always work well and we should go back to FAR. Do you see how perverse this logic is?
Don't see what you are getting at.  CCtCap is under FAR.  However, FAR has many variations, ranging from firm fixed price (FFP) to cost+X (where X has several variations).

Long story short, seems the primary issue is ...

1. If NASA does not have a clear set of requirements they are willing to stick with (they are making it up as they go along), then FAR cost+ is likely the best way to go.

2. If NASA does have a clear set of requirements rhey are willing to stick with, then FAR FPP is the best way to go.

3. If NASA wants development of new capabilities (note "capabilities", which specifically excludes "acuisition" of such capabilities, which must occur under FAR) then OTA/SAA is the best way to go--assuming of course that the commercial partner is willing to put in the requisite $.

... so should NASA have conducted another round of CCDev under SAA/OTA?  Maybe.  But that would that have delayed CC acquisition (which must be under FAR).

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #201 on: 06/05/2018 03:42 pm »
With thanks to Jeff Foust for tweeting this:

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AGENCY:

National Aeronautics and Space Administration

ACTION:

Notice of meeting.

SUMMARY:

In accordance with the Federal Advisory Committee Act, as amended, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) announces a meeting of the National Space Council Users' Advisory Group (UAG).

DATES:

Tuesday, June 19, 2018, 9:00 a.m.-2:00 p.m., Eastern Time.

ADDRESSES:

NASA Headquarters, Executive Conference Center, Room 8Q40B, 300 E Street SW, Washington, DC 20546. Please note that if the prior room is filled to maximum capacity, an overflow room will be provided in the James E. Webb Memorial Auditorium.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT:

Mr. Brandon Eden, UAG Designated Federal Officer, NASA Headquarters, Washington, DC 20546, (202) 358-2470 or [email protected].

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

This meeting will be open to the public up to the capacity of the meeting room. This meeting is also available telephonically and by WebEx. You must use a touch-tone phone to participate in this meeting. Any interested person may dial the Toll Number 1-517-308-9154 or Toll Free Number 888-469-2059 and then the numeric passcode 7145407, followed by the # sign. Note: If dialing in, please “mute” your phone. To join via WebEx, the link is https://nasa.webex.com/​. The meeting number on June 19 is 995 394 422 and the meeting password is JMgpT9A? (case sensitive).

As noted above, this will be the first meeting of the UAG. Topics to be discussed will include:

—Opening Remarks by National Space Council Executive Secretary and National Space Council UAG Chair

—Discussion of Topics for the UAG by the National Space Council

—Formation of Work Plan and UAG Subcommittees

—Other Committee Business and Public Input

Attendees will be requested to sign a register and to comply with NASA Headquarters security requirements, including the presentation of a valid picture ID to NASA Security before access to NASA Headquarters. Foreign nationals attending this meeting will be required to provide a copy of their passport and visa in addition to providing the following information no less than 10 days prior to the meeting: Full name; gender; date/place of birth; citizenship; passport information (number, country, telephone); visa information (number, type, expiration date); employer/affiliation information (name of institution, address, country, telephone); title/position of attendee. To expedite admittance, U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents (green card holders) are requested to provide full name and citizenship status no less than 3 working days prior to the meeting. Information should be sent to Mr. Brandon Eden via email at [email protected]. It is imperative that the meeting be held on these dates to the scheduling priorities of the key participants.

Patricia Rausch,

Advisory Committee Management Officer, National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

[FR Doc. 2018-11993 Filed 6-4-18; 8:45 am]

BILLING CODE 7510-13-P

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/06/05/2018-11993/national-space-council-users-advisory-group-meeting

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #202 on: 06/11/2018 04:01 pm »
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USAF Col John Giles, detailed to National Space Council: space traffic management policy has been presented to the president but not yet been signed; look forward to it being approved. [Word is it may be signed next week at the National Space Council meeting next week.]

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1006202894117494785

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #203 on: 06/23/2018 05:43 am »

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #204 on: 07/12/2018 03:25 pm »
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Brett Alexander, Blue Origin: I was not originally a believer in the space council, but impressed by what it’s done. Success due to leadership of vice president, cabinet secretaries taking it seriously, and work by council’s exec. secretary, Scott Pace. #FutureSpace2018

https://twitter.com/jeff_foust/status/1017418664218423297

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #205 on: 10/29/2018 09:01 pm »
Second meeting of National Space Council Users' Advisory Group announced.

Date: Thursday, November 15, 2018, from 9:00 a.m.–4:00 p.m., Eastern Time.

The agenda for the meeting will include the following:

  • Opening Remarks by UAG Chairman

  • Reports from UAG Subcommittees:
    ○ Exploration and Discovery Subcommittee
    ○ National Security Space Subcommittee
    ○ Economic Development/Industrial Base Subcommittee
    ○ Technology and Innovation Subcommittee
    ○ Outreach and Education Subcommittee
    ○ Space Policy and International Engagement Subcommittee

  • Update on NASA Exploration Campaign and DoD Space Planning

  • Other UAG Business and Public Input

Meeting available to public via telecon and WebEx (details in attached notice).

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2018-10-29/pdf/2018-23492.pdf

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #206 on: 08/09/2019 09:13 pm »
Next meeting August 20th:

https://twitter.com/lorengrush/status/1159923430071910400

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I’ll be chairing the 6th meeting of the National Space Council on Aug 20 @ Udvar-Hazy Center in VA. Under President @realDonaldTrump, America is leading again in space. Our Administration is reviving exploration, fostering private enterprise, & securing the strategic high ground.

Offline AnalogMan

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #207 on: 02/20/2020 04:43 pm »
Small amendments to the Executive Order that Revived the National Space Council (dated February 13, 2020)

Changes to council membership and dropping quarterly reporting requirement.

Copy attached.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #208 on: 05/18/2020 10:35 pm »
Live stream for NSC meeting tomorrow


Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #209 on: 05/19/2020 02:30 pm »
Archived video of the NSC meeting:




See also this link (starts at 1h21m):
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/126705967

Edited in order to add link to the archived video.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2020 02:02 am by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #210 on: 05/19/2020 05:46 pm »
Here is another video (from a different angle) of the the first part of the meeting (first half hour):

https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=599962393953190&ref=watch_permalink
« Last Edit: 05/19/2020 05:52 pm by yg1968 »

Offline GWH

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #211 on: 05/19/2020 05:50 pm »
From the press coverage it sounds like this was mostly a bunch of hand shaking and back patting - which is ironic given how that is one thing that can't be physically done in light of COVID-19.

Offline yg1968

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« Last Edit: 05/20/2020 07:11 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #213 on: 05/20/2020 07:16 pm »
Here is a transcript of the first part of the May 19th 2020 National Space Council meeting:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-vice-president-pence-7th-meeting-national-space-council/
« Last Edit: 06/14/2020 03:37 pm by yg1968 »

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #214 on: 05/20/2020 07:18 pm »
Interview with Vice President Pence following the National Space Council Meeting:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pence-says-upcoming-spacex-launch-will-show-america-still-moves-forward-during-the-most-challenging-times

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6158020720001#sp=show-clips
Pence said that "president Trump was responsible for commercial crew" !!!!!!
Edit: then he more or less repeats it again further on
« Last Edit: 05/20/2020 07:20 pm by DistantTemple »
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline getitdoneinspace

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #215 on: 05/20/2020 08:01 pm »
Interview with Vice President Pence following the National Space Council Meeting:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pence-says-upcoming-spacex-launch-will-show-america-still-moves-forward-during-the-most-challenging-times

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6158020720001#sp=show-clips
Pence said that "president Trump was responsible for commercial crew" !!!!!!
Edit: then he more or less repeats it again further on

I hear you but to his credit 1) he didn't cancel the program, 2) his budgets fully funded the program, and 3) he has actively advocated for the program. Pence and Trump have both been very good for our space program. Frankly the executive branch for the past three administrations, Bush, Obama, and Trump along with their appointed NASA administrators, all have been been positive contributors to this accomplishment scheduled for next week. Now we just need to clean house in Congress (both Republicans and Democrats) so that we can really begin to stretch beyond the surface of the earth in a sustainable manner.

Since Trump didn't put the brakes on the program, like many in Congress have tried to do over the years on both sides of the aisle, as a US citizen I am more than happy to allow him to be given credit for being responsible for making this happen.

Offline Coastal Ron

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #216 on: 05/20/2020 08:13 pm »
I hear you but to his credit 1) he didn't cancel the program...

Presidents can't cancel programs, only Congress can. They can request that they be cancelled, but Congress writes the funding laws.

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2) his budgets fully funded the program...

There are lots of government agencies and departments, and Trump himself gets involved in few of them. So describing a lack of interest in a program is not the same as being responsible for its continued existence.

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3) he has actively advocated for the program.

Only in the context of other space initiatives.

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Since Trump didn't put the brakes on the program, like many in Congress have tried to do over the years on both sides of the aisle, as a US citizen I am more than happy to allow him to be given credit for being responsible for making this happen.

You can give him credit for whatever you want, but that doesn't mean its true.

The fact remains that President Obama proposed the Commercial Crew program, got it funded, and then fought for it to continue to be funded. When Trump came into office the program was in its final phase, the contractors had already been chosen, and all they had to do was stay out of the way.

So credit to Trump/Pence for staying out of NASA's way. That's about as much credit as they deserve. Same for the SLS and Orion too, since they were all funded at the same time.

Oh, and I say that Bush 43 is responsible for the Commercial Cargo program, since even though it started flying during Obama's presidency, it was Bush that proposed it, got it funded, and made the contract awards. Just so you know I'm being consistent in how I view who is responsible.
If we don't continuously lower the cost to access space, how are we ever going to afford to expand humanity out into space?

Offline DistantTemple

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #217 on: 05/20/2020 08:37 pm »
I hear you but to his credit 1) he didn't cancel the program...

Presidents can't cancel programs, only Congress can. They can request that they be cancelled, but Congress writes the funding laws.

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2) his budgets fully funded the program...

There are lots of government agencies and departments, and Trump himself gets involved in few of them. So describing a lack of interest in a program is not the same as being responsible for its continued existence.

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3) he has actively advocated for the program.

Only in the context of other space initiatives.

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Since Trump didn't put the brakes on the program, like many in Congress have tried to do over the years on both sides of the aisle, as a US citizen I am more than happy to allow him to be given credit for being responsible for making this happen.

You can give him credit for whatever you want, but that doesn't mean its true.

The fact remains that President Obama proposed the Commercial Crew program, got it funded, and then fought for it to continue to be funded. When Trump came into office the program was in its final phase, the contractors had already been chosen, and all they had to do was stay out of the way.

So credit to Trump/Pence for staying out of NASA's way. That's about as much credit as they deserve. Same for the SLS and Orion too, since they were all funded at the same time.

Oh, and I say that Bush 43 is responsible for the Commercial Cargo program, since even though it started flying during Obama's presidency, it was Bush that proposed it, got it funded, and made the contract awards. Just so you know I'm being consistent in how I view who is responsible.
From:https://arstechnica.com/features/2020/05/the-numbers-dont-lie-nasas-move-to-commercial-space-has-saved-money/
Quote from: ERIC BERGER
As President Obama came into office in January, 2009, he was inclined to further the commercial efforts begun under the Bush administration. He and his vice presidential candidate, Joe Biden, had even campaigned on it.

“We want to reinvigorate our national space program and that includes creating an environment for a vibrant commercial space program,” Biden had said at an October campaign stop in Florida.

So (according to this) you missed out a rather telling proponent: Joe Biden! (although You are correct, Bush started it and Obama kept it going.... intelligently!
We can always grow new new dendrites. Reach out and make connections and your world will burst with new insights. Then repose in consciousness.

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #218 on: 05/20/2020 08:48 pm »
Interview with Vice President Pence following the National Space Council Meeting:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pence-says-upcoming-spacex-launch-will-show-america-still-moves-forward-during-the-most-challenging-times

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6158020720001#sp=show-clips
Pence said that "president Trump was responsible for commercial crew" !!!!!!
Edit: then he more or less repeats it again further on

Trump is partly responsible. Bush is also partly responsible too as commercial crew appeared in the 2008 NASA Authorization Act which was signed by Bush. The 2008 NASA Authorization Act allowed Obama to begin funding commercial crew.
« Last Edit: 05/20/2020 08:56 pm by yg1968 »

Offline yg1968

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Re: National Space Council Reestablished
« Reply #219 on: 05/20/2020 08:49 pm »
I hear you but to his credit 1) he didn't cancel the program...

Presidents can't cancel programs, only Congress can. They can request that they be cancelled, but Congress writes the funding laws.

The President has veto power which gives him some power over what gets funded.

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