Author Topic: SLS General Discussion Thread 2  (Read 402519 times)

Offline Khadgars

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1340 on: 04/13/2018 10:57 PM »
NASA is now likely to launch crew on SLS Block 1, possibly as early as 2022 on EM-2.  I actually see immense benefit of testing out Orion and crew in lunar orbit through EM-3 on Block 1 prior to commencing building of lunar gateway with Block 1b.  But with EUS delayed, this now affects Europa clipper.  Push it back several years find another LV?

Offline Space Ghost 1962

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1341 on: 04/13/2018 11:32 PM »
Nonsense. It's always been in plan to fly on commercial.

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1342 on: 04/14/2018 02:43 AM »
Europa Clipper should be able to fly on the most capable version of Vulcan/Centaur V. They might have to add a gravitational assist/flyby of one or two planets to get there :(  Or 1x completely expended Falcon Heavy with 1x gravity assist encounter.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2018 02:45 AM by MATTBLAK »
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Offline GWH

Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1343 on: 04/14/2018 01:46 PM »
Vulcan ACES 564 can send 1300 kg direct to Jupiter.
VA564x2 with distributed lift can do 6400 kg, where SLS block 1 can only manage 4380 kg.
« Last Edit: 04/14/2018 01:47 PM by GWH »

Offline woods170

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1344 on: 04/14/2018 03:45 PM »
Nonsense. It's always been in plan to fly on commercial.

Correct, as far as NASA was concerned. Unfortunately, US Congress mandated otherwise. Let's just hope that US Congress will not make yet another stupid decision to (again) force Europa Clipper to fly on SLS.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1345 on: 04/15/2018 06:38 PM »
Vulcan ACES 564 can send 1300 kg direct to Jupiter.
VA564x2 with distributed lift can do 6400 kg, where SLS block 1 can only manage 4380 kg.
Meaning a Vulcan/ACES (564DL) [distributed launch] matches the capabilities for EC that would be provided by an SLS 1B.

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1346 on: 04/16/2018 09:45 AM »
For a probably lot lower cost, yes.
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Offline clongton

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1347 on: 04/16/2018 12:57 PM »
More and more we are seeing non-SLS solutions for missions that were one considered SLS-only for a lot less cost than SLS.
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I started my career on the Saturn-V F-1A engine

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1348 on: 04/16/2018 01:14 PM »
True, Chuck. When designing and building the Europa Clipper; how far into the process do they have to know what launcher is going to be used? Either the most powerful version of Vulcan or the Falcon Heavy might be able to get a good sized version of the design concept of it to Jupiter with only one gravitational flyby of Earth or Venus.
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Offline clongton

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1349 on: 04/16/2018 01:37 PM »
True, Chuck. When designing and building the Europa Clipper; how far into the process do they have to know what launcher is going to be used? Either the most powerful version of Vulcan or the Falcon Heavy might be able to get a good sized version of the design concept of it to Jupiter with only one gravitational flyby of Earth or Venus.

It would need to be pretty early in the design because the instrumentation and structure is mass sensitive. How many gravity assists are needed and how much propellant needs to be included? There are also fairing considerations for the encapsulation geometry of the design. All these and more fall into the basic design of the probe which is settled early on in the process and they are pretty launcher specific. It's extremely expensive to backfit a probe to a launcher it was not designed to fly on.
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Offline speedevil

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1350 on: 04/16/2018 02:01 PM »
It's extremely expensive to backfit a probe to a launcher it was not designed to fly on.
Unless there is sufficient extra capacity.
For example, TESS launching in a few hours on F9, that was initially going to launch on Pegasus.
If the new launcher is more capable in all ways, it's rather easier.


It can lead to questions of if you're sure you put the satellite on the launcher.

Offline Khadgars

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1351 on: 04/16/2018 05:03 PM »
It's extremely expensive to backfit a probe to a launcher it was not designed to fly on.
Unless there is sufficient extra capacity.
For example, TESS launching in a few hours on F9, that was initially going to launch on Pegasus.
If the new launcher is more capable in all ways, it's rather easier.


It can lead to questions of if you're sure you put the satellite on the launcher.

Except when moving from SLS to another LV, they would all be less capable. 

Offline TaurusLittrow

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1352 on: 04/16/2018 05:27 PM »
With the funds to build an SLS 1B-capable platform, NASA can continue to launch the SLS 1 block with the ICPS upper stage. And the launch cadence and EM-2 can be moved up accordingly, which means humans to BEO sooner.

However, the SLS 1 configuration won't allow co-manifesting of "gateway" components, so either a dedicated SLS flight, or more likely, a commercial rocket (NG, FH, BFR?) will be needed to launch the "gateway" (LOP-G) elements.

No less a NASA institution than Gerstenmaier has said that he likes all the options, NewSpace and Legacy Space LVs.  In that case, it doesn't matter if the EUS is delayed. In fact, logically, there would not any reason to build the EUS and SLS 1B at all IF the 50(?) mT DST could be delivered to lunar orbit in two or more segments via commercial LV.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1353 on: 04/16/2018 05:33 PM »
Except when moving from SLS to another LV, they would all be less capable.

Perhaps not in 2022.

Offline Lars-J

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1354 on: 04/16/2018 06:06 PM »
From the update thread:

Well this is surprising:
https://twitter.com/NASAWatch/status/985926582501076992
Quote
This weekend @NASA MSFC Center Director Todd May was talking to #NASA employees about new plans for the first 4 @NASA_SLS flights to be on identical rockets with @NASA_Orion but without crew. The first  launch would be in 2021. First launch with a crew would be EM-5 in 2015/2016.

I am assuming he meant to write 2025/2026. Not sure what to think about that.

Well I can tell you what I think about it: Not good news. No crew until the *FIFTH* SLS flight? Is Orion really that far behind schedule?

Is EUS going to be cancelled? Will "Block 1B" ever fly?
« Last Edit: 04/16/2018 06:07 PM by Lars-J »

Online zack

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1355 on: 04/16/2018 06:10 PM »
I agree, does not sound too encouraging about the 1B.
Also, I find the the 2021 date interesting, last week Lightfoot said early 2020 (well end of 2019 + maybe a few months slip), now the people actually building the rocket say 2021...

Offline rcoppola

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1356 on: 04/16/2018 06:18 PM »
Wait a minute. But that's the whole point of the $350 Million for another MLT. To be able to continue to use ICPS with current Leaning Tower Of Ares while developing MLT-2 for the later EUS missions. Is everyone on the same page over there?
« Last Edit: 04/16/2018 06:22 PM by rcoppola »
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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1357 on: 04/16/2018 06:24 PM »
From the update thread:

Well this is surprising:
https://twitter.com/NASAWatch/status/985926582501076992
Quote
This weekend @NASA MSFC Center Director Todd May was talking to #NASA employees about new plans for the first 4 @NASA_SLS flights to be on identical rockets with @NASA_Orion but without crew. The first  launch would be in 2021. First launch with a crew would be EM-5 in 2015/2016.

I am assuming he meant to write 2025/2026. Not sure what to think about that.

Well I can tell you what I think about it: Not good news. No crew until the *FIFTH* SLS flight? Is Orion really that far behind schedule?

Is EUS going to be cancelled? Will "Block 1B" ever fly?
It says these missions will carry an empty Orion on the first four. So itís far enough along to launch but not with people?!? What is the point of sending an empty capsule to space four times? And not a cheap one at that!

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1358 on: 04/16/2018 06:28 PM »
I agree, does not sound too encouraging about the 1B.
Also, I find the the 2021 date interesting, last week Lightfoot said early 2020 (well end of 2019 + maybe a few months slip), now the people actually building the rocket say 2021...
This doesnít sound encouraging for Block D (all of the above)! What is Vegas showing as odds for which flies first: BFR, SLS, NG, or Vulcan?

Offline Lars-J

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Re: SLS General Discussion Thread 2
« Reply #1359 on: 04/16/2018 06:30 PM »
If the SLS program was a person, it would be put on suicide watch. Things are going so poorly one starts to wonder if there is intentional self-sabotage at work.

But the most likely explanation is still that this is just an incredibly mismanaged program, caused by NASA and contractor extreme hubris over their own capabilities.

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