Author Topic: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call  (Read 29161 times)

Offline Namechange User

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #20 on: 01/10/2008 06:48 pm »
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vt_hokie - 10/1/2008  1:37 PM

I almost think there needs to be a separate agency for aeronautics research, so it won't continually have its funding gutted to cover overruns on the space side of things.

That would be stupid.  Then they are just competing for the same size piece of pie and arguably less would go to where it actually counts since you would have to duplicate certain administrative and overhead costs that are now under one agency.
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Offline Namechange User

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #21 on: 01/10/2008 06:50 pm »
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khallow - 10/1/2008  1:35 PM

I can't unconditionally support such a movement. NASA needs to more effective in space, more supportive of private industry in space, and more focused on studying critical problems (like ISRU or the effects of low gravity on organisms). Otherwise, I don't see the payout from a better funded NASA worth the effort.

Don't then....

Without some increased funding though you will never really see real, continued and substantial money for prizes (that support private industry) and programs like ISRU and other R&D programs (why invest the money in them if you don't have the money to go somewhere and actually use them?)....
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Offline savuporo

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #22 on: 01/10/2008 07:04 pm »
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khallow - 10/1/2008  9:35 AM

I can't unconditionally support such a movement. NASA needs to more effective in space, more supportive of private industry in space, and more focused on studying critical problems (like ISRU or the effects of low gravity on organisms). Otherwise, I don't see the payout from a better funded NASA worth the effort.
Exactly my position, worded differently. Even if there was another space agency, that would be strictly prohibited from building any operational launch vehicles i'd fully support giving it as much money as reasonably possible.
As it stands, more money is simply being poured into bigger boondoggles.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline HIPAR

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #23 on: 01/10/2008 07:05 pm »
The problem with dividing the work amongst many agencies is that artificial barriers are erected to delineate their missions.

For instance, you might attempt to assign responsibility for anything that goes into space to NASA and assign anything that flies in air to some National Aeronautics Administration.  Then the whole concept breaks down when you want to design a space shuttle.  The ensuing infighting is brutal within an agency and insurmountable when it occurs between agencies.

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Offline Marcus

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #24 on: 01/10/2008 08:06 pm »
For those of you who are worried about govn't boondoggles, how about this:

Reduce the rest of the Fed budget so that NASA's current budget becomes 1%.

See? Even Libertarians can support OPS!
OPS!
One Percent for SPACE!

Offline savuporo

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #25 on: 01/10/2008 08:59 pm »
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HIPAR - 10/1/2008  10:05 AM
 Then the whole concept breaks down when you want to design a space shuttle.  

Thats sort of the entire idea: you should not want to design a space shuttle.
Being a government space agency, you would want to fly your research and exploration missions, including manned ones,  but not design and operate launch vehicles within the agency.
Orion - the first and only manned not-too-deep-space craft

Offline Namechange User

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #26 on: 01/10/2008 11:49 pm »
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savuporo - 10/1/2008  3:59 PM

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HIPAR - 10/1/2008  10:05 AM
 Then the whole concept breaks down when you want to design a space shuttle.  

Thats sort of the entire idea: you should not want to design a space shuttle.
Being a government space agency, you would want to fly your research and exploration missions, including manned ones,  but not design and operate launch vehicles within the agency.

There is a middle ground folks.  The Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army and Cost guard all operate and maintain there equipment.  While they do not design it, they do have a great amount of input be defining the requirements, input to the actual design, etc.
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Offline Jim

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #27 on: 01/11/2008 01:16 am »
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OV-106 - 10/1/2008  7:49 PM

There is a middle ground folks.  The Air Force, Navy, Marines, Army and Cost guard all operate and maintain there equipment.  While they do not design it, they do have a great amount of input be defining the requirements, input to the actual design, etc.

Not an applicable analogy.  Space launch is not an weapon system

The DOD doesn't even operate its own spacelaunch vehicles

Offline ryan mccabe

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #28 on: 01/11/2008 03:01 am »

Regarding the original topic:

A hypothetical "One Percent For Space" campaign doesn't have to mean exactly that. I think some of you are getting too concerned with the nitty-gritty details of what specific budget we should appropriate. That's not how I would view it. I would view it as a campaign to simply get manned spaceflight on the public's radar again, and show how much could be done with a modest budget. Who on this board doesn't find that agreeable?
 

 In that regard, I think the "One Percent For Space" idea is perfect:

 - By its very name, it conveys that we spend less than 1% of our budget on spaceflight
- It's easy to remember
- It's an easy soundbite for politicians to get behind

- It doesn't sound that outrageous to your average voter

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khallow - 10/1/2008  1:35 PM

I can't unconditionally support such a movement. NASA needs to more effective in space, more supportive of private industry in space, and more focused on studying critical problems (like ISRU or the effects of low gravity on organisms). Otherwise, I don't see the payout from a better funded NASA worth the effort.

 Well the title is "One Percent For Space," not "One Percent For NASA." Congress can spend the money in any way they see fit. I completely agree that some of the most promising areas that could use funding are private space firms who could super-charge our exploration programs if they come to fruition. 


Offline Jim

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #29 on: 01/11/2008 03:13 am »
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ryan mccabe - 10/1/2008  11:01 PM
 Well the title is "One Percent For Space," not "One Percent For NASA." Congress can spend the money in any way they see fit. I completely agree that some of the most promising areas that could use funding are private space firms who could super-charge our exploration programs if they come to fruition.


Congress does not disburse monies to commercial entities.  Nor does it just give money to a company to "super charge" it.  

 A gov't agency would have to be involved.  Any tax money for space is going through NASA.

Offline ChrisInAStrangeLand

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #30 on: 01/11/2008 03:31 am »
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Jim - 10/1/2008  8:16 PM
Not an applicable analogy.  Space launch is not an weapon system

ITAR. QED.

BTT, you seriously think giving MORE money to the federal government is going to solve anything? The admistration has been borrowing 300G$ per year from China and they can't even get universal healthcare right.

Offline ryan mccabe

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #31 on: 01/11/2008 03:36 am »
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Jim - 10/1/2008  10:13 PM

Congress does not disburse monies to commercial entities.  Nor does it just give money to a company to "super charge" it.  

 A gov't agency would have to be involved.  Any tax money for space is going through NASA.

I realize it would go through NASA, but Congress can stipulate where the money is to go. That can be goods/services from private space firms the same way a spending bill provides funds for a specific highway.

And I wasn't talking about handing out corporate welfare to "super charge" private space firms. What I said we could "super charge" was our exploration programs. And while that chiefly means the VSE, other programs stand to benefit too.

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #32 on: 01/11/2008 04:26 am »

I'm honoured, truly. Though I'm not sure the idea was originally mine. However, it was me who has been pushing the concept around the various Space blogsites. Regardless of who originally thought of it, pegging NASA'a budget permanently at 1% percent of the Federal Budget, regardless of whether America's economy is in a boom or bust would be to my mind, only fair. This would give America a -- probably -- permanent lead in space technology at a minimal investment. The time is now and there will never be a better opportunity to do this. The United States manned space program is at an actual, titular crossroads in History. If America loses the lead, and more importantly, the workforce and brainpower of it's amazing Space Community in the next few years;

It Will Never Come Back.

Without leadership from the top right now, the U.S. governments of the present and future will be complicit in the ultimate outsourcing of mankind's grandest adventure, to other supposedly "lesser" nations. Who wants to have that on their conscience? Who wants to say that the crews of Apollo 1, Challenger and Columbia, indeed all American explorers died for nothing? Give all our descendants a future that includes the Heavens as a home.

One Percent For Space -- America CAN afford it!!

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Offline ckiki lwai

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #33 on: 01/11/2008 11:01 am »
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MATTBLAK - 11/1/2008  6:26 AM

Without leadership from the top right now, the U.S. governments of the present and future will be complicit in the ultimate outsourcing of mankind's grandest adventure, to other supposedly "lesser" nations. Who wants to have that on their conscience? Who wants to say that the crews of Apollo 1, Challenger and Columbia, indeed all American explorers died for nothing? Give all our descendants a future that includes the Heavens as a home.

One Percent For Space -- America CAN afford it!!

 

I find "to other supposedly "lesser" nations" a bit over the top, NASA should be more cooperative with other space agencies in the world.
Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events. - Robert Heinlein

Offline MATTBLAK

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #34 on: 01/11/2008 11:45 am »

There is ISS, which is being funded to those participating nations best effort at this time. Also, experiments fly aboard each others craft, manned and unmanned all the time -- I'm not sure what you're getting at. International co-operation in space is decades old and is desirable, but most nations with a space program will tell you it's not obligatory under their charters, merely desirable. Also, I said 'supposedly "lesser" -- note the quote marks, implying the colloquial opinions of others, not necessarily mine.

My remarks are about the U.S. Manned Space program, which currently has a narrowing window of opportunity to achieve greatness. It is an opportunity that is the U.S.'s to lose and nobody elses...  :frown:

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Offline William Barton

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RE: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #35 on: 01/11/2008 11:45 am »
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ryan mccabe - 10/1/2008  11:36 PM

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Jim - 10/1/2008  10:13 PM

Congress does not disburse monies to commercial entities.  Nor does it just give money to a company to "super charge" it.  

 A gov't agency would have to be involved.  Any tax money for space is going through NASA.

I realize it would go through NASA, but Congress can stipulate where the money is to go. That can be goods/services from private space firms the same way a spending bill provides funds for a specific highway.

And I wasn't talking about handing out corporate welfare to "super charge" private space firms. What I said we could "super charge" was our exploration programs. And while that chiefly means the VSE, other programs stand to benefit too.

As far as I know, there's nothing to stop Congress from passing a bill to fund aerospace firms directly. While the cabinet level departments have some constitutional basis, I don't think that's true for the independent agencies. To be sure, no matter what Congress did, the President could simply direct Treasury not to write the checks, whereas support for such a scheme would amount to abolishing NASA.

Offline MATTBLAK

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #36 on: 01/11/2008 11:51 am »

Quote
savuporo - 11/1/2008 7:04 AM
Quote
khallow - 10/1/2008 9:35 AM I can't unconditionally support such a movement. NASA needs to more effective in space, more supportive of private industry in space, and more focused on studying critical problems (like ISRU or the effects of low gravity on organisms). Otherwise, I don't see the payout from a better funded NASA worth the effort.
Exactly my position, worded differently. Even if there was another space agency, that would be strictly prohibited from building any operational launch vehicles i'd fully support giving it as much money as reasonably possible. As it stands, more money is simply being poured into bigger boondoggles.

Once the biggest current boondoggle is eliminated -- Ares 1 -- much of the rest of the wastage would go with it. Following this, er, 'evacuation' the clog-up would be eliminated and with a modest increase of NASA's budget (plus some management butt kicked) there would be room for the 21st Century essentials -- ISRU, Propellant Depots, L-1 & L-2, nuclear technology and better Heavy-Lift.

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Offline khallow

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #37 on: 01/11/2008 05:29 pm »
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OV-106 - 10/1/2008  11:50 AM

Quote
khallow - 10/1/2008  1:35 PM

I can't unconditionally support such a movement. NASA needs to more effective in space, more supportive of private industry in space, and more focused on studying critical problems (like ISRU or the effects of low gravity on organisms). Otherwise, I don't see the payout from a better funded NASA worth the effort.

Don't then....

Without some increased funding though you will never really see real, continued and substantial money for prizes (that support private industry) and programs like ISRU and other R&D programs (why invest the money in them if you don't have the money to go somewhere and actually use them?)....

I disagree. NASA already receives ample funding to focus on a few of those goals. It's not just a problem of not enough funding (in fact that might not be a problem at all), but also a problem of where that money goes. My take is that restructuring NASA to improve its focus and better fulfill its mandates (and cutting out programs such as Ares 1 or the Space Shuttle that have no meaningful contribution to general space development) would be a bigger improvement especially over the long term for US space development (and my little pet projects) than just giving NASA more money.
Karl Hallowell

Offline clongton

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #38 on: 01/11/2008 05:40 pm »
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khallow - 11/1/2008  1:29 PM

Quote
OV-106 - 10/1/2008  11:50 AM

Quote
khallow - 10/1/2008  1:35 PM

I can't unconditionally support such a movement. NASA needs to more effective in space, more supportive of private industry in space, and more focused on studying critical problems (like ISRU or the effects of low gravity on organisms). Otherwise, I don't see the payout from a better funded NASA worth the effort.

Don't then....

Without some increased funding though you will never really see real, continued and substantial money for prizes (that support private industry) and programs like ISRU and other R&D programs (why invest the money in them if you don't have the money to go somewhere and actually use them?)....

I disagree. NASA already receives ample funding to focus on a few of those goals. It's not just a problem of not enough funding (in fact that might not be a problem at all), but also a problem of where that money goes. My take is that restructuring NASA to improve its focus and better fulfill its mandates (and cutting out programs such as Ares 1 or the Space Shuttle that have no meaningful contribution to general space development) would be a bigger improvement especially over the long term for US space development (and my little pet projects) than just giving NASA more money.
NASA's current budget is less than 1/2 of 1%. That is small for what they are tasked to do. But don't loose sight of the fact (and Griffin complained to Congress about this) that almost 10% of his budget is special earmarks for pet projects that have nothing to do with space. I bring this up to point out that there is more involved here than just increasing the budget. We need to overhaul the vetting process in how the budget gets created. We need to close the holes in the process before we pour more money into it. Having said that, once that process is cleaned up, then I agree with 1% for space.
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Offline DMeader

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Re: "One Percent for Space" - Take up the call
« Reply #39 on: 01/11/2008 05:40 pm »
Maybe this makes me the odd man out, but I'm firmly in favor of the aeronautical research that NASA engages in, and wouldn't want that cut out.

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