Quote from: kkattula on 01/17/2009 08:59 amQuote from: Stephan on 01/17/2009 07:59 amQuote from: clongton on 01/17/2009 02:47 amFor starters, a REAL Mars Sample Return.How much could a Jupiter 232 send on a trajectory to Mars ?(that's why I asked payload Vs C3 above )Assuming 3.8 km/s dv from LEO, about 35 mt. Not including the JUS itself.Remember that throw weight is not the only limiting factor when sending a lander to mars. The size of the heat shield limits your down mass. Though Direct does have an 8 meter payload shroud which is bigger than the 5 meter shroud on EELV's. I remember seeing somewhere an early Viking plan that had both landers going on top of a single Saturn V launch.
Quote from: Stephan on 01/17/2009 07:59 amQuote from: clongton on 01/17/2009 02:47 amFor starters, a REAL Mars Sample Return.How much could a Jupiter 232 send on a trajectory to Mars ?(that's why I asked payload Vs C3 above )Assuming 3.8 km/s dv from LEO, about 35 mt. Not including the JUS itself.
Quote from: clongton on 01/17/2009 02:47 amFor starters, a REAL Mars Sample Return.How much could a Jupiter 232 send on a trajectory to Mars ?(that's why I asked payload Vs C3 above )
For starters, a REAL Mars Sample Return.
Remember that throw weight is not the only limiting factor when sending a lander to mars. The size of the heat shield limits your down mass. Though Direct does have an 8 meter payload shroud which is bigger than the 5 meter shroud on EELV's. I remember seeing somewhere an early Viking plan that had both landers going on top of a single Saturn V launch.
Reading your opinion of what might happen if a shuttle goes again...let's hope that doesn't occur. I'd like to see humanity off this rock at some point in my life.
Do you understand Chinese? That's option #2 if you like to follow along... lol.
It would be a gradual change-over, but the cost for lifting 60 tons of cargo to LEO is a very small price for any nation to join the exclusive club of moon-walkers -- its a very small price to pay for that prestige, so there is likely to be a nice long waiting list.
Combined with the level of demand for such seats being relatively high (<$300m to join the 250,000 mile high club),
I'll refer you to Steve "Mars Exploration Rover" Squyres comments regarding Human and Robotic Surface Science:
Machines are best if you only want to do a little bit of science. Humans are best if money is no object. Those are very different goals.
"Machines can do it faster and cheaper" is one of the oldest and least well-thought-out arguments of the Space Age. Sure you can send a modern-day equivalent of Mariner IV to take a couple of dozen snapshots of Mars for $100mln,
"The rovers do in a day what a skilled field geologist can do in 30 seconds".
Too little and too late. You need to hammer home that no astronaut has ever brought back any new discoveries from the moon that couldn't have been done faster and cheaper by machines.
AFAIK, the only sample return mission that actually worked right was manned; Apollo 11
Quote from: kraisee It would be a gradual change-over, but the cost for lifting 60 tons of cargo to LEO is a very small price for any nation to join the exclusive club of moon-walkers -- its a very small price to pay for that prestige, so there is likely to be a nice long waiting list.Sorry, Ross, but you failed to include that it could all be done by cheap unmanned probes. Yes, you fail as a "Space is a Waste" commenter. You should go back and try again. Quote from: kraiseeCombined with the level of demand for such seats being relatively high (<$300m to join the 250,000 mile high club), Too little and too late. You need to hammer home that no astronaut has ever brought back any new discoveries from the moon that couldn't have been done faster and cheaper by machines. We await your next effort though...
A friend of mine who commands rovers came back with, "It may take me a day, but how long will it take your geologist to get there?"
.... I can hear the Wasters speed-dialing their congresscritters now...
Quote from: zapkitty.... I can hear the Wasters speed-dialing their congresscritters now...They don't have any impact nor are there very many
{snip}If... maybe... but as Direct should (hopefully) have a shot at a fair hearing now it would seem to be a good idea to be more careful in wording. An eye to the future you might say.