Author Topic: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?  (Read 10688 times)

Offline Skamp_X

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Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« on: 08/22/2012 02:02 pm »
Don't know if this has been brought up or not,
but with the first data coming in from the REMS instrument i find it very interesting that this is the first time a lander is at a location where temperature and pressure go above the tripple point of water.
The data still has gaps but so far the max temperature on sol 10 and 11 was 4C° and 3C° , with presure of about 6.95mb at that time.
The darker dunes and patches at the base of mount sharp are a bit lower in altitude, and the fact they have a lower albedo should gather more heat, should make short term liquid water possible yes?
I can't help thinking that the dark , river like part , could actualy be mud during peak temperatures.
I really hope they make some extensive studies at those locations.

Offline Plopper

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #1 on: 08/22/2012 02:33 pm »
Very interesting! I always heard that it would be possible only in the depth of Hellas Planitia. Also, doesn't the phase diagram change a lot when the water is mixed with salts, allowing it to be fluid at pressures and temperatures where pure water would not?

I know too little to comment, really, but I can't help myself...
The darker shade of the dunes is said to depend on the fact that they consist of smaller grains of sand which reflect light differently. Humid or not. Also, I note that they fear drilling into humid stuff, because it could clog the sampling system. But of course, those are the most interesting targets to investigate.

Still, it's probably a bit of a long shot, as we all are hoping to find signs of life, that it could subsist during occasional thawing of salty water ice.

Offline go4mars

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #2 on: 08/22/2012 02:46 pm »
doesn't the phase diagram change a lot when the water is mixed with salts, allowing it to be fluid at pressures and temperatures where pure water would not?
Indeed it does.  Very interesting observation in this thread.  If it is sludge, they might not want to drive in it unfortunately.  Maybe they could get her close enough to blast it with the laser.
Elasmotherium; hurlyburly Doggerlandic Jentilak steeds insouciantly gallop in viridescent taiga, eluding deluginal Burckle's abyssal excavation.

Offline Skamp_X

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #3 on: 08/22/2012 04:47 pm »
I was thinking along the same lines, most likely they wont try sampling it cause if it's muddy , it could block up the entrance to the lab inside.
Hitting it with the chemcam laser and detecting water vapour would be big news.
Would be a pain at the same time not beeing able to check it for lifesigns.  :-X

Offline jumpjack

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #4 on: 08/22/2012 06:19 pm »
The darker shade of the dunes is said to depend on the fact that they consist of smaller grains of sand which reflect light differently. Humid or not.
They're just "blueberres".
Damned, infinite, trillions of martian blueberries!
-- Jumpjack --

Offline Plopper

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #5 on: 08/22/2012 06:25 pm »
A junior engineer is left alone att the JPL press conference 2020 for the great and final Mars Sample Return Mission. Reading from his paper: Eeh. And eeh. We've returned eeh. A blueberry! It's a salty sandy frozen red... blueberry. From Mars. And a eeh... Now over to the weather report!

Offline kch

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #6 on: 08/22/2012 07:12 pm »
The darker shade of the dunes is said to depend on the fact that they consist of smaller grains of sand which reflect light differently. Humid or not.
They're just "blueberres".
Damned, infinite, trillions of martian blueberries!


Eggs?  Perhaps the Horta are smaller than we thought.  ;)

Offline rushdrums

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #7 on: 08/22/2012 07:18 pm »
"Perhaps the Horta are smaller than we thought."

I was just getting ready to post the exact same response!!! ...until I saw yours...

Good times on Mars.

-Rush
« Last Edit: 08/22/2012 07:19 pm by rushdrums »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #8 on: 08/22/2012 09:52 pm »
Don't know if this has been brought up or not,
but with the first data coming in from the REMS instrument i find it very interesting that this is the first time a lander is at a location where temperature and pressure go above the tripple point of water.
The data still has gaps but so far the max temperature on sol 10 and 11 was 4C° and 3C° , with presure of about 6.95mb at that time.
The darker dunes and patches at the base of mount sharp are a bit lower in altitude, and the fact they have a lower albedo should gather more heat, should make short term liquid water possible yes?
I can't help thinking that the dark , river like part , could actualy be mud during peak temperatures.
I really hope they make some extensive studies at those locations.

Ephemeral liquid water has been possible at all previous sites, all have pressures above 6 mB and all have been warm enough for saline water to melt.

Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Skamp_X

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #9 on: 08/24/2012 12:48 pm »
Some data suggest there is saline water on mars but its not fact (yet?).
I could be wrong , please correct me if so.
If there isn't, then this is the first landing at a above tripple point of water site. This is fact , the other is 'what if '.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #10 on: 08/24/2012 11:21 pm »
Some data suggest there is saline water on mars but its not fact (yet?).
I could be wrong , please correct me if so.
If there isn't, then this is the first landing at a above tripple point of water site. This is fact , the other is 'what if '.

What is "fact"?

Many different salts are present on Mars - from spectroscopy and  in SNCs.

Water ice is common on Mars, as frost (even at the equator, as observed on Oppotunity), as ubiquitous ground ice observed at high to mid latitudes and probably localised ice modelled at low latitudes.

Large areas of Mars have surface temperatures well within the melting points of brines.

salt + ice + warmth + pressure = brines

All landing sites have had pressures high enough to sustian liquid water.

All landing sites have had temperatures warm enough to form brines.

Therefore all sites are above the triple point of brines.

Frost was observed at the Viking 2 and Oppotunity sites, ground ice was observed at Phoenix and inferred for Viking 2.

Possible liquid drops were observed by Phoenix.

All the low latiude sites (Viking 1, Pathfinder, Spirit and Oppotunity) all have ephemeral ground temperatures above zero (from orbital data).  Some sites have measured temperatures well above zero

All the low latitude sites therefore have potential for ephemeral pure water.

Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Skamp_X

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #11 on: 08/25/2012 01:08 pm »
About the temperatures , i was going with what was measured from other landers and none had readings above freezing.
Yes thinking about it , the sensors are of the ground so it would be correct to asume the ground itself is a few degrees more.
Also the evidence for salts is pretty high so you are most likely right.
And the frost at the viking sites, not sure what it has to do with possible liqued water, the water vapour freezing up could be from other locations far away.

Offline JohnFornaro

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #12 on: 08/25/2012 02:59 pm »
What is "fact"?

What is "truth"?

Whooops. Sorry.
Sometimes I just flat out don't get it.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #13 on: 08/25/2012 11:58 pm »
About the temperatures , i was going with what was measured from other landers and none had readings above freezing.
Yes thinking about it , the sensors are of the ground so it would be correct to asume the ground itself is a few degrees more.
Also the evidence for salts is pretty high so you are most likely right.
And the frost at the viking sites, not sure what it has to do with possible liqued water, the water vapour freezing up could be from other locations far away.

If the envionment is above the triple point, frost will melt, not sublime.  If there are salts in the ground the frost will melt at the triple point of the brine, not pure water.  The result will be ephemeral surface moisture.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline iamlucky13

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #14 on: 08/26/2012 08:46 am »
Ephemeral liquid brine may have been spotted in the past.

Quite a few members no doubt remember this:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/news/mro20110804.html

Spectroscopy from orbit did not reveal anything, but CRISM's resolution is limited to features about 3 times the size of these flows (nowhere near the resolution of HiRISE), and if this is thin trickles of brine barely at or just below the surface, the signal would no doubt be pretty weak.

Offline Plopper

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #15 on: 08/26/2012 07:35 pm »
Hey, is the pressure data from the REMS instrument for real? Is it really that extremely regular, with even the late night little tic down in the curve repeating identically every Sol? I mean, air temperature changes much less regular and it's a bit hard to believe that air pressure can follow such a very regular pattern given that. Is it such an easy job to be meteorologist on Mars :-P Or is this some kind of test or instrument artifact which does not represent true pressure at Mars (which also seems generally higher than I'd expected)?

http://www.businessinsider.com/mars-curiosity-gets-ready-to-rove-2012-8

Offline hop

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #16 on: 08/26/2012 08:21 pm »
Hey, is the pressure data from the REMS instrument for real?
See http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/multimedia/images/?ImageID=4501
Quote
The fluctuations between about 690 Pascals (6.9 millibars) and 780 Pascals (7.8 millibars) show that the atmosphere is similar to predicated models.
I think there was also a graphic somewhere showed the model vs data, it was certainly discussed in the briefing where that graphic was used.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #17 on: 08/27/2012 07:50 am »
Hey, is the pressure data from the REMS instrument for real? Is it really that extremely regular, with even the late night little tic down in the curve repeating identically every Sol? I mean, air temperature changes much less regular and it's a bit hard to believe that air pressure can follow such a very regular pattern given that. Is it such an easy job to be meteorologist on Mars :-P Or is this some kind of test or instrument artifact which does not represent true pressure at Mars (which also seems generally higher than I'd expected)?

http://www.businessinsider.com/mars-curiosity-gets-ready-to-rove-2012-8

Mars does not have fronts like Earth, so what you see s the diurnal variation.

The pressure is in the right ball park, if Pa = Pascals, pressure at Mars datum altitude is ~600 Pascals (6 mB) and the floor of Gale Crater is below datum altitude
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Moe Grills

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #18 on: 08/29/2012 07:35 pm »
Outcroppings of gypsum anyone?

 ;D

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #19 on: 08/29/2012 09:29 pm »
Outcroppings of gypsum anyone?

Some kind of sulphate, certainly, also clays.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Skamp_X

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Re: Curiosity at a 'liquid water possible' site?
« Reply #20 on: 09/29/2012 01:05 pm »
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-warm-temperatures-on-mars-may-improve-chances-for-habitability-20120928,0,1785352.story

I especialy like this quote:
“If this warm trend carries on into summer, we might even be able to foresee temperatures in the 20s — and that would be really exciting from a habitability point of view. In the daytimes, we could see temperatures high enough for liquid water on a regular basis.”

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