Quote from: volker2020 on 11/02/2021 10:01 amQuote from: ThatOldJanxSpirit on 11/02/2021 09:39 amThree of my key principles are being violated here:1) Keep it simple2) Do as much work as you can on Earth where labour is orders of magnitude cheaper.3) Proportionate consideration of risk.Outfit your base on Earth in the gigantic fairing volume. If the stack is too wobbly to move, and/or the cargo lift is too much of a pain to use then get a big crane (you’ll probably want one anyway) and detach the nose section. With regards to radiation exposure the expected unmitigated doses of around 0.5 Gy per year are high, but well within NASA career limits. Burying everything under 5m of regolith sounds good, but you’d need to do it all with remote controlled diggers to get an actual reduction in astronaut risk as EVA is a high risk activity. I’d expect to see localised shielding in high occupancy areas to control doses, rather than major civil engineering or spacecraft modifications as such measures are likely to be at best grossly disproportionate. Keep it simple sounds good, than you have no access to that gigantic fairing volume on moon. If you want to move this station out, in one go, you need equally big doors. The method they want to use in orbit won't cut it on moon, because you need a way to stabilize the ship, when the center of gravity changes, or remove the complete nose, even when you have this very large crane (which by itself would be quite a complex piece of hardware). 2 winches sound rather straight forward compared to this.ps. 80cm of regolith should do the trick, according to the paper referenced above.pps. The horizontal station that is within the nose, could be finished on earth. (and would by definition be equally big). The part that might become harder, is using the tank area as additional storage. But in a direct comparison, that should be regarded an extra option.No need to extract the habitat through doors; the fairing is the habitat.There is nothing straightforward about conducting a controlled topple of a gigantic steel cylinder using winches and with workers in spacesuits. A crane is significantly simpler, and can be used for a range of other lifting operations.
Quote from: ThatOldJanxSpirit on 11/02/2021 09:39 amThree of my key principles are being violated here:1) Keep it simple2) Do as much work as you can on Earth where labour is orders of magnitude cheaper.3) Proportionate consideration of risk.Outfit your base on Earth in the gigantic fairing volume. If the stack is too wobbly to move, and/or the cargo lift is too much of a pain to use then get a big crane (you’ll probably want one anyway) and detach the nose section. With regards to radiation exposure the expected unmitigated doses of around 0.5 Gy per year are high, but well within NASA career limits. Burying everything under 5m of regolith sounds good, but you’d need to do it all with remote controlled diggers to get an actual reduction in astronaut risk as EVA is a high risk activity. I’d expect to see localised shielding in high occupancy areas to control doses, rather than major civil engineering or spacecraft modifications as such measures are likely to be at best grossly disproportionate. Keep it simple sounds good, than you have no access to that gigantic fairing volume on moon. If you want to move this station out, in one go, you need equally big doors. The method they want to use in orbit won't cut it on moon, because you need a way to stabilize the ship, when the center of gravity changes, or remove the complete nose, even when you have this very large crane (which by itself would be quite a complex piece of hardware). 2 winches sound rather straight forward compared to this.ps. 80cm of regolith should do the trick, according to the paper referenced above.pps. The horizontal station that is within the nose, could be finished on earth. (and would by definition be equally big). The part that might become harder, is using the tank area as additional storage. But in a direct comparison, that should be regarded an extra option.
Three of my key principles are being violated here:1) Keep it simple2) Do as much work as you can on Earth where labour is orders of magnitude cheaper.3) Proportionate consideration of risk.Outfit your base on Earth in the gigantic fairing volume. If the stack is too wobbly to move, and/or the cargo lift is too much of a pain to use then get a big crane (you’ll probably want one anyway) and detach the nose section. With regards to radiation exposure the expected unmitigated doses of around 0.5 Gy per year are high, but well within NASA career limits. Burying everything under 5m of regolith sounds good, but you’d need to do it all with remote controlled diggers to get an actual reduction in astronaut risk as EVA is a high risk activity. I’d expect to see localised shielding in high occupancy areas to control doses, rather than major civil engineering or spacecraft modifications as such measures are likely to be at best grossly disproportionate.
A lightbulb has turned on in my head. Employing Starship in horizontal position on another planet is a bad idea for a very good but non-engineering reason: It has become symbolic.Most of us that follow SS development believe that SS will eventually be successful. It will land people on Mars; It will begin colonization of Mars: it will make possible our exploration of Europa, Titan, Eceladus, and further into the Solar System and beyond.In a nutshell:Starship has become the symbol for Mankind’s entry into the Galaxy.For this reason:Starship, I salute thee. I shall never again suggest that you should lie supine on any planet.
The sketch shows the initial base cluster of SS's surrounded by a berm or wall built of regolith. This would have to be built up over time to eventually cover the base.
Quote from: Ionmars on 11/02/2021 07:50 pmThe sketch shows the initial base cluster of SS's surrounded by a berm or wall built of regolith. This would have to be built up over time to eventually cover the base.Just thought of a method for adding regolith between the vertical Starships, or covering any lunar base design really, without needing the regolith to be compacted to allow a bulldozer to drive on top of it. It also allows for steeper slopes than a bulldozer-based solution.You could actually use something similar to a snow cannon to eject regolith skyward and raining it down on the structure. The relatively low density of regolith, and the low gravity on the moon means it shouldn't rain down with too much force, while also allowing for good throwing distances and height. It's also aided by the lack of an atmosphere. The actual device might be nothing more than a controllable high speed conveyor belt, with probably also some mechanical separators on the input-side, to filter out rocks that are too big/heavy and might damage the structure.Using such a mechanism for regolith deposition makes it very easy to gather the regolith. You would just need to push regolith into the rotating blades of the input. Or you could have an input suitable for a dumptruck.
The idea is interesting, but I think that separating large rocks to a perfect accuracy and mantaining a simple system might be difficult, expecially because only one too large rock thrown could yeld a lot of damage.
If Starship were to be employed only in vertical position, could an inter-ship hallway system still be employed?I think yes. Crew Starships to be reused as habitats could be placed next to each other so that their doors face each other. An inter-ship connector ring would be placed over and around each door and welded to each ship, airtight. The outer edges of the ring would be curved to match the exterior of each ship (a chord of a circle with 4-1/2 m radius). A person would exit through the door of one ship, pass through the ring and enter through the door of the second SS. This would serve as a very short inter-ship hallway.To connect multiple ships into a base-wide hallway system, a special variant of cargo SS would sport four doors facing four directions, as suggested by the sketch below. There could be a series of 4-door units connected together in a line. The side doors would connect to habitat SS's or pressurized cargo units reused as greenhouses, laboratories, and repair shops.In this particular example the habs and cargo sections of SS were not separated from their respective propellant tanks and propulsion units. So the hallway system and living quarters are elevated 20+ m above ground. In effect, Each SS hab would have its own basement consisting of empty CH4 and O2 tanks, which could also be converted into living and working space over time.The sketch shows the initial base cluster of SS's surrounded by a berm or wall built of regolith. This would have to be built up over time to eventually cover the base.Like other alternatives this approach would have its advantages and disadvantages. A detailed analysis of alternatives will be needed to determine which could be constructed faster and at less expense.More discussion of this type of approach may be found in the thread "Amazing Mars Habitats." See entries by TheRadicalModerate and others.
My 2 cents on the topic:1) A lunar habitat module is not being built at the moment and using Artemis and Gateway as a measuring stick it translates into at least 5 years of lead time at best;2) Starship should be already suitable for long term (months) space environment due to its intended purpose of sending people to Mars, so I think that 6 months lunar shifts would do the trick until a permanent solution will be developed and installed;3) No need to put it horizontally thus removing the ability to escape Moon in case of emergency, but just use it as it is. NASA has already trusted its high habitat concept and deemed it safe enough to assign 3B$ to transport humans onto it;
Quote from: Oersted on 11/01/2021 09:06 pmI wonder why old supertankers on Earth aren't repurposed as skyscrapers? Just stand them up on one end. I mean, it would be ten times easier than laying a spaceship on its side on another planet...I know you are being faceteous, but there is a big difference. A Supertanker is not designed to support itself on its stern. A However, a Starship is designed to support itself against a lateral load of > 1 g, which it does during re-entry as it flies with the windward side facing the direction of motion.
I wonder why old supertankers on Earth aren't repurposed as skyscrapers? Just stand them up on one end. I mean, it would be ten times easier than laying a spaceship on its side on another planet...
Quote from: DanClemmensen on 11/02/2021 12:01 amQuote from: Oersted on 11/01/2021 09:06 pmI wonder why old supertankers on Earth aren't repurposed as skyscrapers? Just stand them up on one end. I mean, it would be ten times easier than laying a spaceship on its side on another planet...I know you are being faceteous, but there is a big difference. A Supertanker is not designed to support itself on its stern. A However, a Starship is designed to support itself against a lateral load of > 1 g, which it does during re-entry as it flies with the windward side facing the direction of motion.Yes, it can deal with an even lateral load, but how are you going to achieve that on a rocky lunar surface, and just as important, while placing it horizontally?
Quote from: Oersted on 11/04/2021 05:49 amQuote from: DanClemmensen on 11/02/2021 12:01 amQuote from: Oersted on 11/01/2021 09:06 pmI wonder why old supertankers on Earth aren't repurposed as skyscrapers? Just stand them up on one end. I mean, it would be ten times easier than laying a spaceship on its side on another planet...I know you are being faceteous, but there is a big difference. A Supertanker is not designed to support itself on its stern. A However, a Starship is designed to support itself against a lateral load of > 1 g, which it does during re-entry as it flies with the windward side facing the direction of motion.Yes, it can deal with an even lateral load, but how are you going to achieve that on a rocky lunar surface, and just as important, while placing it horizontally?First, the lunar gravity imposes only a .16 G load, which is lot less than the load during re-entry, and I'm not sure how "even" the forces are during re-entry: I understand it's a bit of a rough ride. Next, I would use a rake to clear the rocks, just as you would when laying a patio on sand. I might even add a conformal squishy layer to the outside of the HLS. The existing TPS would probably work just fine, but a specifically designed layer would work better. There may be very good reasons to not tilt the ship, but protection from the surface is not one of them.
In this concept, the Starship is being used as little more than a cylindrical hollow within a regolith berm. All other work of burying and fitout is the same as if you'd created that hollow in any other manner. If you have an alternate method to create that hollow that can be carried within a Starship, you obviate the need to expend one in the first place. Barring ISRU methods (not impossible, but simply not demonstrated so low TRL), the two most obvious alternatives are an pressure-supported inflatable bladder (pros: light, compact, you need to pressurise the structure anyway. cons: fail-unsafe in event of pressure loss) or a deployable structure e.g. concrete canvas (pros: fail-safe in event of pressure loss so can be used for airlocks and vehicle garages, durable, a viable structure for operational use even before burying. Cons: greater upmass than pure inflatable membrane, requires some quantity of water to be carried if ISRU not an option).