Author Topic: Taurus II and availability of the NK33  (Read 89739 times)

Online sdsds

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7201
  • “With peace and hope for all mankind.”
  • Seattle
  • Liked: 2050
  • Likes Given: 1962
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #100 on: 08/30/2009 08:18 pm »
http://www.space.com/spacenews/spacenews_summary.html#BM_2

AEROJET LOOKING TO RESTART PRODUCTION OF NK-33 ENGINE
[...] Van Kleeck said [...]

"If the test is wildly successful, it could lead to future customers and it could drive the need for production sooner,"

What are the measures of success for this test?  Demonstrating a T/W ratio greater than 136?  Demonstrating a sea-level Isp greater than 295?  Extended burn time?

What values would be characterized as "wild" success, i.e. just how spectacular is this engine design?
— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 —

Offline Jim

  • Night Gator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 37440
  • Cape Canaveral Spaceport
  • Liked: 21450
  • Likes Given: 428
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #101 on: 08/30/2009 09:08 pm »
Merlin was first test-fired a year after SpaceX was founded.

Because there was some preliminary work done by TRW.

Offline Robotbeat

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 39270
  • Minnesota
  • Liked: 25240
  • Likes Given: 12115
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #102 on: 08/30/2009 10:54 pm »
Merlin was first test-fired a year after SpaceX was founded.

Because there was some preliminary work done by TRW.

I didn't know that! Interesting to know. Thanks.

My main point is that Orbital probably is already looking at what they'd need to do in case the Russians don't play ball. If they aren't, then they are fools because the Russians will use that to their own advantage. Does anyone have something beyond conjecture about if Orbital is looking into their options to avoid vender-lock-in?
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #103 on: 08/30/2009 11:02 pm »
My main point is that Orbital probably is already looking at what they'd need to do in case the Russians don't play ball. If they aren't, then they are fools because the Russians will use that to their own advantage. Does anyone have something beyond conjecture about if Orbital is looking into their options to avoid vender-lock-in?

I am sure that ORB would like to avoid vendor lock in. However, with 30 some NK-33s available in Sacramento, the problem is much less acute than the problem of getting Taurus II to make it to orbit in the near term.

Offline R.Simko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 320
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #104 on: 08/31/2009 12:56 am »
Can anyone give a brief explanation as to:

1.  Why Russia's NK-33 has an ISP so much higher than other rocket engines like the Merlin? 

2.  Do we (America), have any RP1 engines with comparable in ISP, to the NK-33?   

Thanks for any info.

Offline Antares

  • ABO^2
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • Done arguing with amateurs
  • Liked: 371
  • Likes Given: 228
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #105 on: 08/31/2009 01:28 am »
Staged Combustion (most of the Isp difference), and Oxygen Rich Staged Combustion for rest of it.

No.  An RD-180US would be.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline edkyle99

  • Expert
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15391
    • Space Launch Report
  • Liked: 8566
  • Likes Given: 1356
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #106 on: 08/31/2009 01:58 am »
http://www.space.com/spacenews/spacenews_summary.html#BM_2

AEROJET LOOKING TO RESTART PRODUCTION OF NK-33 ENGINE

... At this point, Van Kleeck said talks are concentrated on where the new line would be built, though she said Aerojet would prefer a U.S. production line if a sound business case can be made.

....This fall, Aerojet is planning a long-duration, high-power test firing of the NK-33 in Samara, Russia. Scheduled for late September or early October, the test could raise confidence in the engine. ...


This is going right down the road already trod by RD-180.  Promises of U.S. production that never seem to materialize beyond "we have the blueprints and are sure we *could* do it". 

"Aerojet is planning a ... test firing of NK-33 in Samara, Russia?"  Clearly Aerojet won't be the party actually conducting a test at Samara, and I suspect the use of the word "planning" would be a stretch for a Samara test too.  (Weren't these tests supposed to be performed at Stennis?)

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 08/31/2009 02:00 am by edkyle99 »

Offline antonioe

  • PONTIFEX MAXIMVS
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1077
  • Virginia is for (space) lovers
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #107 on: 08/31/2009 02:11 am »
I can add some insight.

The Stennis tests are short duration single-engine PRE-FLIGHT ACCEPTANCE TESTS for the Sacramento-stored engines.  The test facility is designed for short duration tests using subcooled LOX and chilled RP.

The Samara test will be a 2X duration using the Taurus II thrust profile (perhaps a few percent over) and inlet conditions, using a Samara-stored engine from the same production batch as the Sacramento engines.  Quite a test!!!

While the Russians will be providing the facility and the engine, and will conduct the test, their customer is Aerojet.

Different tests, different purpose, different facilities.
« Last Edit: 08/31/2009 02:17 am by antonioe »
ARS LONGA, VITA BREVIS...

Offline R.Simko

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 320
  • Liked: 9
  • Likes Given: 24
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #108 on: 08/31/2009 02:15 am »
Thanks for the info. Antares.   :)

Offline zaitcev

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 581
    • mee.nu:zaitcev:space
  • Liked: 3
  • Likes Given: 3
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #109 on: 08/31/2009 04:16 am »
2.  Do we (America), have any RP1 engines with comparable in ISP, to the NK-33?
Do we need them? We have pretty good hydrogen engines, which work fine even on lower stages without any SRBs.

I understand that Taurus is principially a kerosene rocket, so in context of its development Orbital does need them, but you asked about America in general.

-- Pete

Offline ugordan

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8520
    • My mainly Cassini image gallery
  • Liked: 3543
  • Likes Given: 759
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #110 on: 08/31/2009 11:52 am »
We have pretty good hydrogen engines, which work fine even on lower stages without any SRBs.

Do they? Their flight rate would suggest otherwise.

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 226
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #111 on: 08/31/2009 02:21 pm »
Staged Combustion (most of the Isp difference), and Oxygen Rich Staged Combustion for rest of it.

No.  An RD-180US would be.

This is a nit, but I was under the impression that the NK-33 ran a fuel-rich preburner.

Offline William Barton

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3487
  • Liked: 8
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #112 on: 08/31/2009 02:34 pm »
Merlin was first test-fired a year after SpaceX was founded. How hard is it to make a new engine? I'm sure if there's a large demand for the Taurus II and they run out of engines, someone could just make a new one. Couldn't cost more than $200 million, half a billion tops. Might be a good idea to have one on the back-burner to use as a bargaining chip with the Russians.
Matching NK-33 performance would be much more difficult than building Merlin. Despite being designed in the 60s, it's still a pretty hot engine.

Merlin 1c:
T/W 96 (according to wikipedia)
ISP 275(sl) 304 (vac)

NK-33:
T/W 136
ISP 295 (sl) 331 (vac)



I have read (no longer remember where) that NK-33 was designed and manufactured by jet-engine manufacturer Kuznetzov, due to a dispute between Korolev and Glushko over what the N-1 engines should be. No idea if that's true, but interesting, if so.

Offline Antares

  • ABO^2
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5181
  • Done arguing with amateurs
  • Liked: 371
  • Likes Given: 228
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #113 on: 08/31/2009 02:38 pm »
Just verified in various AIAA papers: it's ox-rich.  See Closed Cycle Liquid Propellant Rocket Engines, by Kuznetsov in 1993.
If I like something on NSF, it's probably because I know it to be accurate.  Every once in a while, it's just something I agree with.  Facts generally receive the former.

Offline HMXHMX

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1709
  • Liked: 2211
  • Likes Given: 662
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #114 on: 08/31/2009 02:38 pm »
Staged Combustion (most of the Isp difference), and Oxygen Rich Staged Combustion for rest of it.

No.  An RD-180US would be.

This is a nit, but I was under the impression that the NK-33 ran a fuel-rich preburner.

The gas generator of the NK33 is oxygen rich, running at an o/f of 57:1 as I recall the number.

Offline Danderman

  • Extreme Veteran
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10288
  • Liked: 699
  • Likes Given: 723
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #115 on: 08/31/2009 03:29 pm »
I have read (no longer remember where) that NK-33 was designed and manufactured by jet-engine manufacturer Kuznetzov, due to a dispute between Korolev and Glushko over what the N-1 engines should be. No idea if that's true, but interesting, if so.

This is actually true.


Offline Dmitry_V_home

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
  • City of Toglliatti, Samara region, Russia
  • Liked: 666
  • Likes Given: 133
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #116 on: 08/31/2009 06:01 pm »
I can add some insight.

The Stennis tests are short duration single-engine PRE-FLIGHT ACCEPTANCE TESTS for the Sacramento-stored engines.  The test facility is designed for short duration tests using subcooled LOX and chilled RP.

The Samara test will be a 2X duration using the Taurus II thrust profile (perhaps a few percent over) and inlet conditions, using a Samara-stored engine from the same production batch as the Sacramento engines.  Quite a test!!!

While the Russians will be providing the facility and the engine, and will conduct the test, their customer is Aerojet.

Different tests, different purpose, different facilities.

Antonio, if not a secret, with whom you work in Samara? After all, Kuznetsov SNTK is almost dead...

Offline strangequark

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1072
  • Co-Founder, Tesseract Space
  • San Francisco, CA
  • Liked: 226
  • Likes Given: 12
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #117 on: 08/31/2009 08:19 pm »
Just verified in various AIAA papers: it's ox-rich.  See Closed Cycle Liquid Propellant Rocket Engines, by Kuznetsov in 1993.

Hmm, that's intriguing. I had been led to believe that the NK-33 was a fuel-rich preburn, and therefore much simpler to manufacture, as there was no need for extensive ceramic use as in the RD-0180. I'll stop hijacking the thread, but thank you for the correction. Learn something new every day.

Offline antonioe

  • PONTIFEX MAXIMVS
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1077
  • Virginia is for (space) lovers
  • Liked: 43
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #118 on: 08/31/2009 08:28 pm »
Antonio, if not a secret, with whom you work in Samara? After all, Kuznetsov SNTK is almost dead...
We work through Aerojet - they arranged the meetings with the NK-33 designers.  I don't know what the organization name is, but according to the people that visited them they still have the ability to perform the test.
ARS LONGA, VITA BREVIS...

Offline nooneofconsequence

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1391
  • no one is playing fair ...
  • Liked: 0
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Taurus II and availability of the NK33
« Reply #119 on: 08/31/2009 08:39 pm »
... using a Samara-stored engine from the same production batch as the Sacramento engines ...
By any chance are these the ones unbolted from the unflown N1 that was reworked following the last flight?
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something" - Plato

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Margaritaville Beach Resort South Padre Island
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
1