Author Topic: Falcon 9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion  (Read 486904 times)

Offline Davidthefat

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #940 on: 06/05/2018 02:17 pm »
At the time Elon spoke, forging was probably was the manufacturing technique they were leaning toward.

But forging such a shape will have all the internal voids filled in with a webbing (just due to the limitations of the forging process) that need to be machined away. It's ALOT of machining.

Having cast minimizes the amount of machining that need to be done, and if the material properties are good enough, then casting is the way to go. Plus, it also looks like some weld repairs are done on that fin posted above.
« Last Edit: 06/05/2018 02:20 pm by Davidthefat »

Offline docmordrid

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #941 on: 06/11/2018 03:08 pm »
This may have broader implications than a faster Tesla Roadster 2 - a choice being made to use Inconel-cored COPV's for Commercial Crew. How else to interpret a "literally bulletproof" COPV?

Quote
Lord lima bean @Lord_Lima_Bean
21h
Replying to @UHDDreamer and 2 others
No, he is using them for energy storage, he is using them for a supercar to assist with brakes, turns, and speed, they are cold air thrusters.

Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
 Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
4:00 PM - Jun 10, 2018

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736?s=19
DM

Offline envy887

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #942 on: 06/11/2018 03:16 pm »
This may have broader implications than a faster Tesla Roadster 2 - a choice being made to use Inconel-cored COPV's for Commercial Crew. How else to interpret a "literally bulletproof" COPV?

Quote
Lord lima bean @Lord_Lima_Bean
21h
Replying to @UHDDreamer and 2 others
No, he is using them for energy storage, he is using them for a supercar to assist with brakes, turns, and speed, they are cold air thrusters.

Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
 Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
4:00 PM - Jun 10, 2018

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736?s=19

That doesn't say anything about Inconel.

The only reference to Inconel pressure vessels that I have seen related to Block 5 was Inconel spheres as an alternate to COPVs.

COPV 2.0 is presumably non-spherical and still uses aluminum liners like the original COPV, unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #943 on: 06/11/2018 03:17 pm »
This may have broader implications than a faster Tesla Roadster 2 - a choice being made to use Inconel-cored COPV's for Commercial Crew. How else to interpret a "literally bulletproof" COPV?

Quote
Lord lima bean @Lord_Lima_Bean
21h
Replying to @UHDDreamer and 2 others
No, he is using them for energy storage, he is using them for a supercar to assist with brakes, turns, and speed, they are cold air thrusters.

Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
 Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
4:00 PM - Jun 10, 2018

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736?s=19

Sounds to me like Elon is talking about the current COPV design, which can be made bulletproof in the same way other composites (eg Kevlar armor) can be made bulletproof.

« Last Edit: 06/11/2018 03:19 pm by Kabloona »

Offline butters

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #944 on: 06/11/2018 03:21 pm »
This may have broader implications than a faster Tesla Roadster 2 - a choice being made to use Inconel-cored COPV's for Commercial Crew. How else to interpret a "literally bulletproof" COPV?

Quote
Lord lima bean @Lord_Lima_Bean
21h
Replying to @UHDDreamer and 2 others
No, he is using them for energy storage, he is using them for a supercar to assist with brakes, turns, and speed, they are cold air thrusters.

Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
 Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
4:00 PM - Jun 10, 2018

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736?s=19

Haven't we concluded that the Inconel pressure vessel is not composite-overwrapped and therefore not a "COPV"? I think we're still in a phase where NASA hasn't decided whether to bless COPV 2.0 or the Inconel alternative for commercial crew.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #945 on: 06/11/2018 03:46 pm »
To clarify, Musk is proposing to put F9 COPV's in Tesla cars as storage vessels for high-pressure air to be vented through thrusters on the car.

https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/09/tesla-roadster-spacex-package/

Discussion of that goes here:

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=45823.0
« Last Edit: 06/11/2018 04:19 pm by Kabloona »

Offline Spudley

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #946 on: 06/11/2018 09:31 pm »
This may have broader implications than a faster Tesla Roadster 2 - a choice being made to use Inconel-cored COPV's for Commercial Crew. How else to interpret a "literally bulletproof" COPV?

Quote
Lord lima bean @Lord_Lima_Bean
21h
Replying to @UHDDreamer and 2 others
No, he is using them for energy storage, he is using them for a supercar to assist with brakes, turns, and speed, they are cold air thrusters.

Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
 Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
4:00 PM - Jun 10, 2018

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736?s=19

Sounds to me like Elon is talking about the current COPV design, which can be made bulletproof in the same way other composites (eg Kevlar armor) can be made bulletproof.

Or maybe he's just making a wisecrack at some of the conspiracy theories that were going round after the Amos 6 incident.

Offline deruch

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #947 on: 06/11/2018 11:00 pm »
Quote
Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.  It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736 

I had always heard/read that one of the major challenges of working with COPVs was that they were very sensitive to surface damage, including even things like minor scratches and dings.  Very surprised to learn that the new ones could be so resistant to damage as to not be impaired by being shot with a gun.  Or maybe he's just saying that shooting one wouldn't actually penetrate it, but not claiming that it would still be usable?

I assume he only knows this because it was one of the tests they ran in the AMOS-6 investigation, so they maybe tried out the new COPVs to see how they compared.
Shouldn't reality posts be in "Advanced concepts"?  --Nomadd

Offline Kabloona

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #948 on: 06/11/2018 11:43 pm »
Quote
Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.  It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736 

I had always heard/read that one of the major challenges of working with COPVs was that they were very sensitive to surface damage, including even things like minor scratches and dings.  Very surprised to learn that the new ones could be so resistant to damage as to not be impaired by being shot with a gun.  Or maybe he's just saying that shooting one wouldn't actually penetrate it, but not claiming that it would still be usable?

I assume he only knows this because it was one of the tests they ran in the AMOS-6 investigation, so they maybe tried out the new COPVs to see how they compared.

It wouldn't surprise me if he means it won't rupture when fully pressurized, even when struck by a bullet.

Remember, one of the "theories" being bandied about in the hours after the AMOS-6 incident was that maybe someone had taken a potshot at the stage. Highly unlikely that ever happens, but it's a security/safety scenario that has to be in the back of everyone's mind at the Cape, especially when astros are involved. So Elon wanting to make the COPV bulletproof even when pressurized on the pad is not more crazy than, say, wanting to put COPV's on Teslas for jet assist.

And, when you think about it, if you're putting COPV's on Teslas, you want them super-safe in case of impact accidents. So bulletproof-level strength when pressurized is a good idea for that application, too.

When he says "extremely robust," I think that's not hyperbole. I'd love to see a cross-section of one of those COPV's cut open. The walls must be incredibly thick (for a composite).
« Last Edit: 06/12/2018 12:01 am by Kabloona »

Offline mnelson

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #949 on: 06/12/2018 02:50 am »
Quote
Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.  It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736 

I had always heard/read that one of the major challenges of working with COPVs was that they were very sensitive to surface damage, including even things like minor scratches and dings.  Very surprised to learn that the new ones could be so resistant to damage as to not be impaired by being shot with a gun.  Or maybe he's just saying that shooting one wouldn't actually penetrate it, but not claiming that it would still be usable?

I assume he only knows this because it was one of the tests they ran in the AMOS-6 investigation, so they maybe tried out the new COPVs to see how they compared.

This video at 9:52 shows a COPV being subjected to gunfire. The whole video is pretty interesting.

« Last Edit: 06/12/2018 02:53 am by mnelson »

Offline EnigmaSCADA

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #950 on: 06/12/2018 03:24 am »
I'm pretty sure there's nothing inherently "bullet proof" about inconel. Every use case of inconel I'm aware of centers around its heat resistance. For example, it is commonly used for all, or sometimes just the first/proximal, baffles in a rifle caliber silencer because it can withstand the heat and being blasted with high velocity unburnt smokeless powder under sustained firing without failing. Something aluminum & titanium aren't really capable of, while steels like 17-4 PH are non-ideal due to eventual erosion/stresses. But it's certainly not bullet proof if a rifle projectile were to actually hit it, BHN is too low.

Offline envy887

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #951 on: 06/12/2018 11:10 am »
I'm pretty sure there's nothing inherently "bullet proof" about inconel. Every use case of inconel I'm aware of centers around its heat resistance. For example, it is commonly used for all, or sometimes just the first/proximal, baffles in a rifle caliber silencer because it can withstand the heat and being blasted with high velocity unburnt smokeless powder under sustained firing without failing. Something aluminum & titanium aren't really capable of, while steels like 17-4 PH are non-ideal due to eventual erosion/stresses. But it's certainly not bullet proof if a rifle projectile were to actually hit it, BHN is too low.

Again, the COPVs are not inconel.

Offline Kabloona

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #952 on: 06/12/2018 01:25 pm »
Quote
Elon Musk ✔ @elonmusk
Exactly. Total energy stored even in ultra compressed air is low vs battery, but power output is insane. The composite overwrapped pressure vessel (COPV) is most advanced ever made.  It’s what SpaceX is qualifying for NASA crewed missions. Extremely robust — literally bulletproof.
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1005902575353204736 

I had always heard/read that one of the major challenges of working with COPVs was that they were very sensitive to surface damage, including even things like minor scratches and dings.  Very surprised to learn that the new ones could be so resistant to damage as to not be impaired by being shot with a gun.  Or maybe he's just saying that shooting one wouldn't actually penetrate it, but not claiming that it would still be usable?

I assume he only knows this because it was one of the tests they ran in the AMOS-6 investigation, so they maybe tried out the new COPVs to see how they compared.

This video at 9:52 shows a COPV being subjected to gunfire. The whole video is pretty interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqH_s3YC4sE?t=9m57s

Interesting video. To be clear for everyone reading, that's a CNG cylinder for use in vehicles, not the SpaceX COPV, but nevertheless demonstrates a bulletproof COPV.

Some of the key bits of data mentioned during the gunfire tests at around 10:00 in the video:

COPV was pressurized to 3000 psi
Test rounds were .357 magnum at 25 feet
Six direct hits in a tight grouping did not cause failure
After test, cylinder exceeded min burst pressure of 7500 psi
Test rounds penetrated about 50% depth of the composite layer, or less than 1/8" (implying composite layer less than 1/4")
Total wall thickness over 3/4", which implies >1/2" aluminum bottle thickness under the <1/4" composite wrap

Again, this was a generic CNG cylinder for use in CNG-powered vehicles, not SpaceX's COPV. But it demonstrates how a COPV can be bulletproof even when pressurized.


« Last Edit: 06/12/2018 01:37 pm by Kabloona »

Offline glanmor05

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #953 on: 07/16/2018 11:32 am »
I have tried searching for this information, but can't find it (maybe on L2?).

My understanding is that SpaceX need to conduct 7 Block 5 flights (with no design changes) before being allowed to launch commercial crew?

I further understand that the initial flight of Block 5 didn't count because the new COPV design wasn't flown on that flight?

Which mission currently plans to use a core with the new configuration?  I assume each block 5 flight beyond that will fly the new tanks so there should be more than enough for this to become a limiting factor?
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Offline Star One

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #954 on: 07/16/2018 11:41 am »
I have tried searching for this information, but can't find it (maybe on L2?).

My understanding is that SpaceX need to conduct 7 Block 5 flights (with no design changes) before being allowed to launch commercial crew?

I further understand that the initial flight of Block 5 didn't count because the new COPV design wasn't flown on that flight?

Which mission currently plans to use a core with the new configuration?  I assume each block 5 flight beyond that will fly the new tanks so there should be more than enough for this to become a limiting factor?

The next Block 5 flight will feature the new COPV design and count as the first of the seven.

Offline glanmor05

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #955 on: 07/16/2018 11:54 am »
Thank you.  So next B5 flight (is the next flight) 08/22/18?

Only non-Block 5 flight planned thereafter is the in-flight abort test, so all being well the 7 flight thing won't come into play as regards delaying first crew flight?
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Offline Alexphysics

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #956 on: 07/16/2018 12:02 pm »
The in-flight abort will use a complete Block 5 rocket (first and second stages).

Offline glanmor05

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #957 on: 07/16/2018 12:15 pm »
There's a lot of debate about that on the In-Flight Abort specific thread.  It seems like Core 1042 (Block 4) MIGHT do the job?

Nevertheless, my original question is answered.  Thanks again.
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Offline Alexphysics

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #958 on: 07/16/2018 12:48 pm »
There's no reason to have more debate on that, it's solved now. From the GAO report:

Quote
To better understand the propellant loading procedures, the program and SpaceX agreed to demonstrate the loading process five times from the launch site in the
final crew configuration prior to the crewed flight test. The five events
include the uncrewed flight test and the in-flight abort test.
Therefore,
delays to those events would lead to delays to the agreed upon
demonstrations, which could in turn delay the crewed flight test and
certification milestone

As you can see, the in-flight abort will now be used as another test for the fuelling procedure in the final crew configuration, so it has to be an entire Falcon 9 Block 5 rocket. No more debate, no more rumors, just fact.

Offline gongora

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Re: F9 Block 5 Updates and Discussion
« Reply #959 on: 07/16/2018 02:50 pm »
Only non-Block 5 flight planned thereafter is the in-flight abort test, so all being well the 7 flight thing won't come into play as regards delaying first crew flight?

Some of the flights between DM-1 and DM-2 could be reflights of Block 5 boosters without the newest COPVs.  Not sure how that fits in.  If that 7 flights in same configuration is really still a requirement, then it could certainly delay DM-2 unless they retrofit the new COPVs into the first few Block 5 cores.  Some of the newest Block 5 cores may also end up being a Falcon Heavy on their first flight.  (Of course, if DM-2 ends up getting delayed for a bit anyway for various certification reasons then it still might not matter.)

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