Author Topic: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 1  (Read 1217466 times)

Offline docmordrid

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1980 on: 05/21/2018 06:32 pm »
According to King County permit records, SpaceX seems to have picked up another building in Redmond (Building 119).  So now we have...

Starlink HQ @ 18390 NE 68th Street
Building 116 @ 23040 NE Alder Crest Drive
Building 117 @ 23020 NE Alder Crest Drive
Building 119 @ 22816 NE Marketplace Drive (the address doesn't make perfect sense)

It's a parking lot near the 23020 NE Alder Crest Drive building.
« Last Edit: 05/21/2018 06:42 pm by docmordrid »
DM

Offline Tomness

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1981 on: 05/21/2018 06:41 pm »
According to King County permit records, SpaceX seems to have picked up another building in Redmond (Building 119).  So now we have...

Starlink HQ @ 18390 NE 68th Street
Building 116 @ 23040 NE Alder Crest Drive
Building 117 @ 23020 NE Alder Crest Drive
Building 119 @ 22816 NE Marketplace Drive (the address doesn't make perfect sense)

NE Marketplace drive is the next block north.
That's nice parking lot that revamp or turn into clean build building.

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1982 on: 05/26/2018 08:03 pm »
Quote
How’s the global internet project coming along?

https://twitter.com/nitantbhartia/status/1000446562106003456

Quote
Pretty good. TinTin A & B are both closing the link to ground w phased array at high bandwidth, low latency (25 ms). Good enough to play fast response video games.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1000453321121923072

Offline billh

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1983 on: 05/26/2018 08:34 pm »
Quote
How’s the global internet project coming along?

https://twitter.com/nitantbhartia/status/1000446562106003456

Quote
Pretty good. TinTin A & B are both closing the link to ground w phased array at high bandwidth, low latency (25 ms). Good enough to play fast response video games.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1000453321121923072
Now we know how they're testing the prototypes...  :D

Offline IRobot

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1984 on: 05/26/2018 08:36 pm »
Non-technical question: how do regional laws apply to a worldwide service?
Example: will Starlink have to comply with any German law or pay local VAT, if the end user is in Germany?
« Last Edit: 05/26/2018 08:37 pm by IRobot »

Offline billh

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1985 on: 05/26/2018 08:40 pm »
Non-technical question: how do regional laws apply to a worldwide service?
Example: will Starlink have to comply with any German law or pay local VAT, if the end user is in Germany?
Yes, they have to comply with the laws of each country they operate in, including a license for the frequencies they are using. Otherwise the satellites would need to go silent as they pass over that country.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1986 on: 05/26/2018 08:43 pm »
Non-technical question: how do regional laws apply to a worldwide service?
Example: will Starlink have to comply with any German law or pay local VAT, if the end user is in Germany?
In general, selling any service in a country means they can stop that service, if you do not comply with all pertinent regulations.
This can at the extreme mean banning your service and making ownership of terminals illegal - but even forbidding mastercard/... to do business with you works just fine.

It would in the usual case work just like any other foreign owned ISP, just because it's delivered by satellite doesn't make it special.
(and no, buying a terminal in the USA and shipping it to somewhere else won't automatically work, as SpaceX may be required by the local government to not allow this, in order to permit sales in that country.


Offline groundbound

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1987 on: 05/26/2018 10:15 pm »
Non-technical question: how do regional laws apply to a worldwide service?
Example: will Starlink have to comply with any German law or pay local VAT, if the end user is in Germany?
In general, selling any service in a country means they can stop that service, if you do not comply with all pertinent regulations.
This can at the extreme mean banning your service and making ownership of terminals illegal - but even forbidding mastercard/... to do business with you works just fine.

It would in the usual case work just like any other foreign owned ISP, just because it's delivered by satellite doesn't make it special.
(and no, buying a terminal in the USA and shipping it to somewhere else won't automatically work, as SpaceX may be required by the local government to not allow this, in order to permit sales in that country.

It is interesting to speculate that there are edge cases of this. For instance, in a completely failed state there might be international encouragement to turn on connectivity as a humanitarian relief tool. But as a government starts to reboot and exercise the first bits of control, at what point do you start to honor its request to limit or stop the service?

Offline gongora

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1988 on: 05/26/2018 10:16 pm »
Non-technical question: how do regional laws apply to a worldwide service?
Example: will Starlink have to comply with any German law or pay local VAT, if the end user is in Germany?
In general, selling any service in a country means they can stop that service, if you do not comply with all pertinent regulations.
This can at the extreme mean banning your service and making ownership of terminals illegal - but even forbidding mastercard/... to do business with you works just fine.

It would in the usual case work just like any other foreign owned ISP, just because it's delivered by satellite doesn't make it special.
(and no, buying a terminal in the USA and shipping it to somewhere else won't automatically work, as SpaceX may be required by the local government to not allow this, in order to permit sales in that country.

It is interesting to speculate that there are edge cases of this. For instance, in a completely failed state there might be international encouragement to turn on connectivity as a humanitarian relief tool. But as a government starts to reboot and exercise the first bits of control, at what point do you start to honor its request to limit or stop the service?

If you don't have permission from the government then you don't transmit in that area.  Period.

Offline John Alan

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1989 on: 05/26/2018 10:17 pm »
It will not surprise me in the least that each ground terminal will have embedded GPS chips and know exactly where they are when they go to establish a connection to the overhead StarLink net...

IF the terminal is located in a government declared off limits territory... StarLink will simply refuse the connection request... 
If on a mobile platform... The connection will likely terminate if you cross a border into a restricted zone...

The system likely needs this GPS locating function to steer the beams correctly in both directions anyway...

Just my 2 cents on recent subtopic regarding foreign country usage...  :)

Offline ccross20

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1990 on: 05/26/2018 10:52 pm »
Regarding how it would work in countries that don't allow it; how does Iridium handle this issue?

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1991 on: 05/26/2018 11:53 pm »
Regarding how it would work in countries that don't allow it; how does Iridium handle this issue?
They don't. Iridium works everywhere. Some countries ban the phones, but if you sneak one it will still work. It made for some interesting stories in west Africa.
« Last Edit: 05/26/2018 11:53 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1992 on: 05/27/2018 01:12 am »
Regarding how it would work in countries that don't allow it; how does Iridium handle this issue?
They don't. Iridium works everywhere. Some countries ban the phones, but if you sneak one it will still work. It made for some interesting stories in west Africa.

For connecting humanity, I hope this is how Starlink operates.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1993 on: 05/27/2018 02:14 am »


If you don't have permission from the government then you don't transmit in that area.  Period.
I'm sure the potential for destabilizing governments by opening up their countries to unfettered internet is already being considered. It would be a legal mess for SpaceX to accede to such a request, to be sure. Probably requiring some new laws.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Eagandale4114

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1994 on: 05/27/2018 02:16 am »
Quote
Will TinTin A & B be the only demo units Starlink deploys before start of full production & deployment? Or will there be a few more? Do you have an (aspirational) timeline for when Starlink would begin commercial service?

https://twitter.com/SmileSimplify/status/1000497753925959680

Quote
Will do another rev before final design

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1000531933418242048

Offline biosehnsucht

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1995 on: 05/27/2018 08:26 am »
It will not surprise me in the least that each ground terminal will have embedded GPS chips and know exactly where they are when they go to establish a connection to the overhead StarLink net...

IF the terminal is located in a government declared off limits territory... StarLink will simply refuse the connection request... 
If on a mobile platform... The connection will likely terminate if you cross a border into a restricted zone...

The system likely needs this GPS locating function to steer the beams correctly in both directions anyway...

Just my 2 cents on recent subtopic regarding foreign country usage...  :)

You can probably just slew the beam across the whole sky until you detect a downlink, then track that beam by wobbling your "antenna" reception to determine it's path (by wobbling reception around and continuing to slew towards highest db signal). When you get a chance, you establish an actual 2-way link and after the initial link you can get all the needed data to determine your location from the satellite's known orbit (it can tell you) and other satellites, etc. Possibly that can just be transmitted (not much data size) every few seconds on an "open channel" instead so you just have to find a satellite and follow it until you get that data (much like cold GPS startup). Either way, once you know where satellites are in in their orbit in relation to earth, and their relation to you, you can get something much like a GPS fix. Won't be cm level accurate or anything, but enough to find any satellite that should be in view easily.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1996 on: 05/27/2018 09:06 am »
You can probably just slew the beam across the whole sky until you detect a downlink, then track that beam by wobbling your "antenna" reception to determine it's path (by wobbling reception around and continuing to slew towards highest db signal). ...
It is technically easy.

Once you start violating bits of that countries law - for example - not providing the right filter to block gambling/pornography/freedom, or required intercept capability, they start a case against you and find that you're guilty of breaking that law, and you get a ruling that you must stop doing that.

If you don't in fact stop doing that, contempt of court proceedings kick in, and you get cut off from banking in that country and they try to seize any in-country assets, and stop payment processors sending you money.

If this is - for example - wartornistan - where you have four legitimate customers, you may not care.

If it's the UK, or germany, or ... where you have millions, you certainly do.

http://www.wired.co.uk/article/porn-block-ban-in-the-uk-age-verifcation-law - for example - which may or may not come into force soon, as one example of legislation. This requires (amongst other things) you to block a list of sites, before you've gotten proof of the users age.



Offline ccross20

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1997 on: 05/27/2018 02:00 pm »
I just don't see how you can realistically restrict system access from the satellites. What happens when the satellite is over the border? I expect it to be limited by sales/import ban of receiver modems in individual countries. Site restrictions and whatnot would be based on the billing address of the account or something like that. If the country is very strict about blocking the service then they could probably use tracking devices to search for ground based antennas and prosecute anyone found using one.

Offline speedevil

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1998 on: 05/27/2018 02:11 pm »
I just don't see how you can realistically restrict system access from the satellites. What happens when the satellite is over the border?
If SpaceX is selling large numbers of units into a market, they are going to have to comply with local laws, including modifying operation of units imported by users from other countries. SpaceX knows to within several meters at most where each operating terminal is, and would have to implement this blocking.

For countries where they aren't selling many, the leverage is limited.

Offline RonM

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Re: SpaceX - now a satellite manufacturer (Starlink)
« Reply #1999 on: 05/27/2018 02:16 pm »
I just don't see how you can realistically restrict system access from the satellites. What happens when the satellite is over the border?
If SpaceX is selling large numbers of units into a market, they are going to have to comply with local laws, including modifying operation of units imported by users from other countries. SpaceX knows to within several meters at most where each operating terminal is, and would have to implement this blocking.

For countries where they aren't selling many, the leverage is limited.

Yes, SpaceX will know the location of the user and can refuse connections from countries that don't want the service used by its people. Refusal to follow local laws can be dealt with by filing complaints in the World Trade Organization.

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