Author Topic: SpaceX's Autonomous Spaceport Drone Ship Updates and Discussion Thread 3  (Read 1424138 times)

Offline llanitedave

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The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   

It's that same logic that keeps patent trolls in operation.

Elon needs to hire Lee Cheng from Newegg.com.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 05:09 am by llanitedave »
"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Offline yokem55

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The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   

It's that same logic that keeps patent trolls in operation.

Elon needs to hire Lee Cheng from Newegg.com.
Its also aerospace industry pricing logic that Elon has hammered against for years. Just because something is 'aerospace' doesn't magically make it need to cost 10 times more.

The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 05:41 am by yokem55 »

Offline sfxtd

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Its also aerospace industry pricing logic that Elon has hammered against for years. Just because something is 'aerospace' doesn't magically make it need to cost 10 times more.

The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.

The Port's reply is essentially "What is this convenient berth worth to you and your low-volume, high-value cargo?" and the negotiation continues from there.

Offline CameronD

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The correct answer here is 'No' and giving in just invites more attempts to get shaken down. Now if the port can articulate what their additional security costs, then maybe SpaceX and the port can come to an arrangement, but 'just because' won't fly.

The Port's reply is essentially "What is this convenient berth worth to you and your low-volume, high-value cargo?" and the negotiation continues from there.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with it - unless the Port can demonstrate a long line of customers waiting to use that particular berth.

As Yokem points out, the Port will need to justify why the extraordinary charge is required and after that, it's up to the two parties to come to some agreement.  If no agreement is reached, SpaceX will need to find another berth someplace else, 'cause the Port would be quite within their rights to kick them out for disturbing the peace and quiet of their pleasant little back-water every time the barge comes home from the sea. ;)

I do hope the Port ain't planning something as nefarious as using the $15k to pay for dedicated 24/7 web-cam coverage of each returned stage to increase their own online presence and popularity... 'cause the cost would be about right.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 06:22 am by CameronD »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine - however, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are
going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead.

Offline woods170

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The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Wrong. It is in fact a fight worth fighting. If SpaceX decides to "just" pay the fee now, the port will be charging double next year. Greed is only stopped thru legal means.

Offline Brovane

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The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Wrong. It is in fact a fight worth fighting. If SpaceX decides to "just" pay the fee now, the port will be charging double next year. Greed is only stopped thru legal means.

You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable. 

Negotiate a multi-year deal at a mutually agreed upon price and move on to more important matters. 
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Offline JamesH65

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If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Offline Kabloona

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If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Let's say the stage is worth $20M to SpaceX. $15,000/$20,000,000=0.00075. In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

A 0.075% tax? This is hardly Boston Tea Party material. They'll find some middle ground and move on.
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 01:22 pm by Kabloona »

Offline gadgetmind

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In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

Maybe, but it was only "exported" 8 minutes earlier!

And would they charge this $15k for smoking debris like the SES-9 and Eutelsat/ABS stages?

Offline Kabloona

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In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

Maybe, but it was only "exported" 8 minutes earlier!

And would they charge this $15k for smoking debris like the SES-9 and Eutelsat/ABS stages?

If they go by hook weight on the crane, probably a lot less than 30 tons for this small pile of debris, so maybe they get a 75% discount.  ;)

Offline JamesH65

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If it is 14x what other users are charged, would you accept it as reasonable?

There may be some extra issues with long loads (but not weight, that's absurd) and crane storage. But $15k each seems a little steep.

Let's say the stage is worth $20M to SpaceX. $15,000/$20,000,000=0.00075. In other words, the $15k amounts to a 0.075% "import" tax.

A 0.075% tax? This is hardly Boston Tea Party material. They'll find some middle ground and move on.

I guessing it's not the amount SpaceX are complaining about, but the fact that they are being charged more than anyone else for the same sort of thing. That's simply unfair.

If I've got anything from Musk over the last 10 years, it's that he really doesn't like unfair pricing.

Offline starsilk

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perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.

Offline Mader Levap

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You assume the fee the port wants to charge isn't reasonable.
I see you ignored part where rate is 17 times of rate of other cargo.
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Offline DecoLV

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Is it trapped? Is there really no way to get the ASDS thru the 401 drawbridge? I assume SpaceX could otherwise find a way to build a facility somewhere on the Banana River if it really wanted to.

Offline Jim

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quiet of their pleasant little back-water every time the barge comes home from the sea. ;)


It isn't a little back-water.  It was the 3rd (in 2014) and now likely the 2nd most busiest cruise port in the world.  That is their bread and butter.  Space related ops are just a novelty for the port.

Offline georgegassaway

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perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Because it would be a LOT CHEAPER to fly it back to land than $15k.

Uh, no, wait......

Anyway, the $15k fee would be ridiculous. May be a ploy as the high end number for a negotiation.
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Offline the_other_Doug

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Not pointing fingers at anyone, but this reeks of an uninformed, emotional profiling-type response to the whole stink about how PortTV started calling all of us SpaceX fans an "undesirable criminal element" and as such we were tainting any SpaceX activities in the port by our unwholesome interest in them.

Especially if one of the stated reasons is that the port feels they need to heighten security while a Falcon stage is in port.  Again, that makes it sound like they feel having such a stage in port is an attractive nuisance that brings in an unwelcome, unsavory and security-challenging element that would not otherwise be the case.

Just sayin'...
-Doug  (With my shield, not yet upon it)

Offline Lar

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The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Seems like extortionate pricing if it's far higher than everyone else.  If you pay Danegelt, you get more Danes...

(I for one am glad the Danes switched from being Vikings to making the finest toy the world has ever known[1], but that's just me)

<---- which I happen to own a little bit of :)

1 - LEGO, did you really need to ask???
« Last Edit: 06/21/2016 06:15 pm by Lar »
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Offline llanitedave

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The value of the 1st stage is what $20-$30 Million.  The harbor wants to charge $15k to un-load it from the drone ship.  Is this really a fight that SpaceX wants to have?  Pay the damn fee and move onto more important things.   
Seems like extortionate pricing if it's far higher than everyone else.  If you pay Danegelt, you get more Danes...

(I for one am glad the Danes switched from being Vikings to making the finest toy the world has ever known[1], but that's just me)

<---- which I happen to own a little bit of :)

1 - LEGO, did you really need to ask???

It wasn't so much a switch as an add-on.

"I've just abducted an alien -- now what?"

Offline starsilk

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perhaps this will accelerate the plans to refuel and fly the stage back from the barge to land.
Because it would be a LOT CHEAPER to fly it back to land than $15k.

Uh, no, wait......

fuel is cheap.

and the scales just got tipped $15K towards fly-back, which they already wanted to do anyway (speed, less exposure to salt water, weather damage, etc).

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