Author Topic: SUSIE, (Smart Upper Stage for Innovative Exploration) concept from ARIANE  (Read 24568 times)

Offline gosnold

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 568
  • Liked: 235
  • Likes Given: 2027
They call it upper stage yet the upper stage is expended. For cargo it only reuses the fairing, for manned flights it's arguably too big.

I don't get it.

Yep, it serves no purpose.

If you want independent access to ISS/ future LEO stations it's too big. If you want access to the Gateway it's too heavy. If you want to deploy constellations it's still throwing away the 2nd stage.

Basically, it's a cool PR ploy.

Instead, they could have put forward a reusable 2nd stage for Ariane Next, for cheaper constellation deployment, or a refuellable kick stage for interplanetary missions. But those don't have astronauts so they are not cool enoug to open the IAC.


Offline Exastro

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • USA
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 50
Effectively, if SUSIE is approved by minister's council, it will be in the same delays than Ariane NEXT. But I don't know if Ariane NEXT will be capable to launch a 25T spaceship. I have see on an Arianespace document the maximum payload will be about 20T.
SUSIE has some of its own propulsion, right? It could do the circularization burn.

Not if it also needs the same propulsion to do the deorbit burn AND land propulsively, all within a wet mass budget of max. 25 metric tons while having a crew cabin for 5 AND a 40 cubic meter payload bay with airlock for EVA AND other unpressurized cargo.

The projected capabilities and the wet mass don't match. That is UNLESS the vehicle, after reaching orbit, goes to a propellant depot first. Needless to say: a propellant depot was not mentioned during the ArianeGroup presentation.

"This vision of the future for Europe’s launchers is based on an in-depth study of possible future scenarios and the corresponding space missions... In the near future... it will be necessary to adopt a “networked” approach, similar to the current air transport “hubs”... launchers will serve LEO and a new orbit beyond the Van Allen Belts called a “parking orbit”. From these orbits, other spacecraft would take over and head for the final destinations."
 
It's pretty vague, but it sounds like SUSIE might be a surface-to-station shuttle, with the station potentially resupplying it in orbit.
« Last Edit: 09/20/2022 08:44 pm by Exastro »

Offline yg1968

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15707
  • Liked: 5998
  • Likes Given: 2643
I didn't realize this but it seems that Susie could fly to lunar orbit:

https://twitter.com/SPACEdotcom/status/1572317608271028226

Online Try_NBS

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Go ESA
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 36
We can see two fuel tanks, so it will be a refuelling on LEO before TLO burn like the Starship? If that permise to join the gateway that's a masterclass.

Online Try_NBS

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Go ESA
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 36
It's just a little strange because we can see a 1 engine stage behind SUSIE. Is it an UPLM? Or an Ariane NEXT second stage ? And the SUSIE'S architecture isn't the same as we see for the first version. So It's maybe "SUSIE Deep Space"

Offline john smith 19

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9855
  • Everyplaceelse
  • Liked: 2292
  • Likes Given: 12743
I didn't realize this but it seems that Susie could fly to lunar orbit:

https://twitter.com/SPACEdotcom/status/1572317608271028226
So it's not the Hermes/Dyna-soar revisited.

Ariane group rediscovers the BAE "Multi Purpose Capsule"  :(

Those whose who do not learn the lessons of history..... :(
MCT ITS BFR SS. The worlds first Methane fueled FFSC engined CFRP SS structure A380 sized aerospaceplane tail sitter capable of Earth & Mars atmospheric flight.First flight to Mars by end of 2022. Forward looking statements. T&C apply. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" R. Simberg."Competitve" means cheaper ¬cheap

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11409
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 15291
  • Likes Given: 9509
Effectively, if SUSIE is approved by minister's council, it will be in the same delays than Ariane NEXT. But I don't know if Ariane NEXT will be capable to launch a 25T spaceship. I have see on an Arianespace document the maximum payload will be about 20T.
SUSIE has some of its own propulsion, right? It could do the circularization burn.

Not if it also needs the same propulsion to do the deorbit burn AND land propulsively, all within a wet mass budget of max. 25 metric tons while having a crew cabin for 5 AND a 40 cubic meter payload bay with airlock for EVA AND other unpressurized cargo.

The projected capabilities and the wet mass don't match. That is UNLESS the vehicle, after reaching orbit, goes to a propellant depot first. Needless to say: a propellant depot was not mentioned during the ArianeGroup presentation.

"This vision of the future for Europe’s launchers is based on an in-depth study of possible future scenarios and the corresponding space missions... In the near future... it will be necessary to adopt a “networked” approach, similar to the current air transport “hubs”... launchers will serve LEO and a new orbit beyond the Van Allen Belts called a “parking orbit”. From these orbits, other spacecraft would take over and head for the final destinations."
 
It's pretty vague, but it sounds like SUSIE might be a surface-to-station shuttle, with the station potentially resupplying it in orbit.

Tell me, what space station is currently in orbit that is able to refuel SUSIE with several tons of storable propellants?










Answer: None.

Online Try_NBS

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Go ESA
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 36
I don't think they will use a refuelling station, they will do the same method as the Starship. 1 SUSIE Hab, 1-2 Susie Tanker.

Offline woods170

  • IRAS fan
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11409
  • IRAS fan
  • The Netherlands
  • Liked: 15291
  • Likes Given: 9509
I don't think they will use a refuelling station, they will do the same method as the Starship. 1 SUSIE Hab, 1-2 Susie Tanker.

On a single launch pad infrastructure that supports - at best - six launches per year? That will be interesting.
« Last Edit: 09/21/2022 12:29 pm by woods170 »

Offline hektor

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2425
  • Liked: 1006
  • Likes Given: 42
The more details we get the more it sounds odd. European industry should refrain to put forward projects with such a low maturity.

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1321
  • Likes Given: 1146
I don't think they will use a refuelling station, they will do the same method as the Starship. 1 SUSIE Hab, 1-2 Susie Tanker.

On a single launch pad infrastructure that supports - at best - six launches per year? That will be interesting.

Guess they will need supplemental launch capacity near Kourou.

Since that deep space SUSIE stack (SUSIE, service module, starboard tankage module, portside tankage module & expendable tankers) needs at least the equivalent of about 5 Ariane 64 launches to bring up to LEO for assembly.

Alternately buying from someone a customized "deep space" propulsion & power unit that is located at LEO for SUSIE to docked with.

Of course the "deep space" SUSIE will only carry either cargo or crew with IDS docking port & consumables.

Online Try_NBS

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Go ESA
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 36
It's true, but I think the service module is a part of the Spacecraft. Effectively that can be strange to launch the "Deep Space SUSIE" on an A64, same for the A64evo, but in the Ariane NEXT VH version, it's possible. Minimum 3 launches required to prepare it.

Offline edzieba

  • Virtual Realist
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4746
  • United Kingdom
  • Liked: 6876
  • Likes Given: 36
The more details we get the more it sounds odd. European industry should refrain to put forward projects with such a low maturity.
Ariane 6 was a 'high maturity' design.
At some point you need to actually start developing something new, otherwise you stagnate.

Offline Exastro

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 130
  • USA
  • Liked: 107
  • Likes Given: 50
Effectively, if SUSIE is approved by minister's council, it will be in the same delays than Ariane NEXT. But I don't know if Ariane NEXT will be capable to launch a 25T spaceship. I have see on an Arianespace document the maximum payload will be about 20T.
SUSIE has some of its own propulsion, right? It could do the circularization burn.

Not if it also needs the same propulsion to do the deorbit burn AND land propulsively, all within a wet mass budget of max. 25 metric tons while having a crew cabin for 5 AND a 40 cubic meter payload bay with airlock for EVA AND other unpressurized cargo.

The projected capabilities and the wet mass don't match. That is UNLESS the vehicle, after reaching orbit, goes to a propellant depot first. Needless to say: a propellant depot was not mentioned during the ArianeGroup presentation.

"This vision of the future for Europe’s launchers is based on an in-depth study of possible future scenarios and the corresponding space missions... In the near future... it will be necessary to adopt a “networked” approach, similar to the current air transport “hubs”... launchers will serve LEO and a new orbit beyond the Van Allen Belts called a “parking orbit”. From these orbits, other spacecraft would take over and head for the final destinations."
 
It's pretty vague, but it sounds like SUSIE might be a surface-to-station shuttle, with the station potentially resupplying it in orbit.

Tell me, what space station is currently in orbit that is able to refuel SUSIE with several tons of storable propellants?

Answer: None.

If SUSIE starts flying in 2030, what LEO station could resupply it?  CLD should be up (without the ability to service SUSIE as currently conceived, but maybe that could change if there's a market for it).  Starship-class tankers should be plentiful, lofting a hundred tonnes of methalox prop per flight.  And if their flight rate gets high enough, they might easily lead to commercial depots in LEO as a system designed to avoid either expending upper stages or using a 120-tonne vehicle to push a 10-tonne satellite through GTO. 

Yes, it's speculative, a "vision of the future" in the words of the press release.
« Last Edit: 09/21/2022 10:21 pm by Exastro »

Online Try_NBS

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Go ESA
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 36
Yes, but if Susie is a concurrent of Space X, I don't think they will be ok to refuel it with the Starship. I think they will use a tank version to refuel the spacecraft, like the Starship.

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1321
  • Likes Given: 1146
Yes, but if Susie is a concurrent of Space X, I don't think they will be ok to refuel it with the Starship. I think they will use a tank version to refuel the spacecraft, like the Starship.
ESA using up several Ariane 64 equivalent launches to bring up propellants to LEO is a really expensive way of doing it along with lost opportunities to launch paying customers.

Online Try_NBS

  • Member
  • Posts: 25
  • Go ESA
  • Liked: 10
  • Likes Given: 36
If the ESA can launch missions to the Moon orbit, they will do it. And that will be cheaper than any SLS launch.  If they use their reusable Ariane NEXT versions,  the cost of a launch will be cheaper too.

Offline Zed_Noir

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4369
  • Canada
  • Liked: 1321
  • Likes Given: 1146
If the ESA can launch missions to the Moon orbit, they will do it. And that will be cheaper than any SLS launch.  If they use their reusable Ariane NEXT versions,  the cost of a launch will be cheaper too.
Problem is that AIUI ESA can only pour about 20 solid rocket motors annually for use either as Ariane 6 strapped on booster or Vega 1st stage at Kourou. Don't think the Ariane Next will be in service before SUSIE.

Offline BZHSpace

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 204
  • France
  • Liked: 66
  • Likes Given: 117
I honnestly think SUSIE can help Arianespace and other ESA partners to switch from Ariane 6 paradigm to a more reusable version and I like the reference to it in the presentation. If Arianespace want to be successful in the next decade they have to switch rapidly to the reusable paradigm. It's quite interesting that they use an architecture closed to Avio's Space Rider as a design base to SUSIE.

The main difficulties are the ESA managment and its polical complexity, and IMO my main critic is that the second stage isn't integrated to the spacecraft as Terran-R or Starship.
Space will be ours soon.

Offline GWR64

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1444
  • Germany
  • Liked: 1219
  • Likes Given: 779
For Arianespace to be successful and for Europe to have independent access to space, Ariane 6 must first fly.
This powerpoint presentation is probably for the ESA Ministerial Council 2022, as a distraction.
There will be many uncomfortable questions to Arianegroup.

Tags:
 

Advertisement NovaTech
Advertisement SkyTale Software GmbH
Advertisement Northrop Grumman
Advertisement
Advertisement Brady Kenniston
Advertisement NextSpaceflight
Advertisement Nathan Barker Photography
0