Author Topic: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3  (Read 164926 times)

Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #80 on: 03/16/2022 05:29 am »
Is there a relation between the Operation start date in the FCC filing and the actual launch date? probably no but for the launches which spacex has direct control over the launch dates i.e starlink and transporter launches, there is some sort of a loose protocol i believe. To examine this i just gathered info from the NASA Spaceflight forums on the FCC filings and for the launch dates (initial planned launch dates confirmed by sources and not considering delayed launch date ) i used Space Launch now app.
As highlighted in the image a lot of the launches are scheduled for 10-13 days after the Operation Start date in the FCC filings. I am no expert in this matter, just curious about this and was wondering whether it can be used to predict future starlink launches to some extent or narrow down the time frame.

Offline jpo234

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« Last Edit: 03/16/2022 08:02 pm by jpo234 »
You want to be inspired by things. You want to wake up in the morning and think the future is going to be great. That's what being a spacefaring civilization is all about. It's about believing in the future and believing the future will be better than the past. And I can't think of anything more exciting than being out there among the stars.

Offline wannamoonbase

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #82 on: 03/16/2022 08:28 pm »
Starlink is killing it with performance. 

I wonder how much traffic is being handled by the laser interlinks and how many customers they are adding per week/month.

It's starting to get exciting.
Superheavy + Starship the final push to launch commit!

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #83 on: 03/18/2022 03:49 pm »
I can’t read this article because it’s behind a paywall, but supposedly Ukraine’s military has been really making use of Starlink terminals: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/specialist-drone-unit-picks-off-invading-forces-as-they-sleep-zlx3dj7bb
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Joseph Peterson

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #84 on: 03/18/2022 05:31 pm »
Quote
Critical infrastructure facilities in Odesa gain access to Starlink

The equipment providing access to the Starlink satellite Internet has been installed at a number of critical infrastructure facilities in Odesa, Ukraine's southern Black Sea port city.
Ukrinform cites the press service of the Odesa City Council.

“Odesa has received kits to ensure access to the Starlink satellite Internet. A number of important critical infrastructure facilities in Odesa have installed bases to access Starlink satellite Internet,” the statement reads.

The City Hall has expressed gratitude to Elon Musk, founder, CEO, and Chief Engineer at SpaceX, as well as Deputy Prime Minister, Minister of Digital Transformation of Ukraine Mykhailo Fedorov, for providing Odesa’s key agencies with a stable communications source.

As reported, the first Starlink satellite terminals were installed in Odesa on March 12 to back up conventional Internet connections in case of problems. One of the first batches of SpaceX equipment set to provide access to the Starlink satellite network was mounted at the Odesa Humanitarian Centre on Rishelievska Street.

It should be noted that the bases are set up in areas where connectivity was and could be unavailable due to hostilities. Their addresses of the installation are not disclosed.
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/3433528-critical-infrastructure-facilities-in-odesa-gain-access-to-starlink.html

Offline vsatman

Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #85 on: 03/18/2022 06:38 pm »
I can’t read this article because it’s behind a paywall, but supposedly Ukraine’s military has been really making use of Starlink terminals: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/specialist-drone-unit-picks-off-invading-forces-as-they-sleep-zlx3dj7bb
Yes it is. Typically, the military in Ukraine used radio communications and Surfbeam2 satellite terminals via the KaSat satellite. But  radio communications can be jammed by the enemy, and the satellite network on KaSat was disabled by a cyber attack on the morning of February 24 (now this network with tens of thousands of terminals throughout Europe has not yet been fully restored).
Advantage of StarLink  that it can be carried with you and used in a forest field outside places where there is a cellular connection and it is practically impossible to jamm it, because Starlink changes the satellite every 15 seconds, that is, the direction of transmission.
 In Russian-speaking social networks, there is a mention of the use of StarLink by ground units of the Ukrainian army.

Offline novo2044

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #86 on: 03/18/2022 06:43 pm »
I can’t read this article because it’s behind a paywall, but supposedly Ukraine’s military has been really making use of Starlink terminals: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/specialist-drone-unit-picks-off-invading-forces-as-they-sleep-zlx3dj7bb
Without copy pasting the whole thing, the Ukraine has apparently incorporated what was a drone enthusiast group into their military, using cheap commercial lightweight recon drones and much heavier, custom, thermal/night vision octorotor units to actually deploy 5kg antitank weapons at very close range even in areas like villages where collateral damage would usually be an issue, taking advantage of the Russian tendency to sleep at night.  They can apparently relay precise info to the military, in particular artillery units, using Starlink in the field.  It seems to imply the biggest drones are using Starlink directly though it's not entirely clear.

Fascinating stuff.  Pretty much any motor vehicle can carry batteries and a dish to allow any unit the field to have high speed long range communications.  Combined with drones it allows for incredible, cheap, relatively low risk recon.  Who cares if a commercial drone gets shot down, or if a dish gets lost now and then?  They must also be getting a lot of real world data on jamming, equipment durability, etc.  Apparently jamming a frequency switching phased array is much tougher than might have been expected.

The real question: when will grunts ditch the base plate and instead have to lug around a dish and batteries?  I'm not sure which is heavier these days.
« Last Edit: 03/18/2022 06:47 pm by novo2044 »

Offline Lars-J

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Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #87 on: 03/19/2022 04:56 am »
I doubt the drones are using Starlink directly, that seems like a mis-translation. The dishes are not that small and disposable (yet).

The main use appears to be as a mobile communication system between separate military units.
« Last Edit: 03/19/2022 04:59 am by Lars-J »

Offline RedLineTrain

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #88 on: 03/19/2022 11:38 pm »
The Washington Post had an interview with Mykhailo Fedorov, Ukraine's head of digital transformation.  He gives the outlines of Starlink's assistance, which is more substantial than I imagined.

Quote
Ukraine has already received thousands of antennas from Musk’s companies and European allies, which has proved “very effective,” Fedorov said in an interview with The Washington Post Friday.

“The quality of the link is excellent,” Fedorov said through a translator, using a Starlink connection from an undisclosed location. “We are using thousands, in the area of thousands, of terminals with new shipments arriving every other day.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/19/elon-musk-ukraine-starlink/

Offline su27k

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #89 on: 03/20/2022 01:37 am »
They renamed "Starlink Premium" to "Starlink Business": https://www.starlink.com/business

Offline Mandella

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #90 on: 03/20/2022 02:44 am »
They renamed "Starlink Premium" to "Starlink Business": https://www.starlink.com/business

Good call.

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #91 on: 03/21/2022 05:25 am »
I doubt the drones are using Starlink directly, that seems like a mis-translation. The dishes are not that small and disposable (yet).

The main use appears to be as a mobile communication system between separate military units.

Also note that the area is still a fairly permissive RF environment. For reasons unknown, the russians have not brought their full EW warfare capabilities to bear (particularly certain EW trucks), and there is still in theory the option of bulk jamming all Starlink frequencies with a very strong transmitter, drowning out all the terminals (though this is a step of last resort as you would be trying to gray out half a hemisphere pumping that much power out).

You can be sure the chinese will be studying these circumstances very closely, comparing the utility of pinpoint jamming or EW against terminals (particularly from the air), and bulk jamming (which must be weighed against active use of their own megaconstellation such as Guowang, and the utility that brings to them)

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #92 on: 03/21/2022 09:40 am »
<snip>
Also note that the area is still a fairly permissive RF environment. For reasons unknown, the russians have not brought their full EW warfare capabilities to bear (particularly certain EW trucks), and there is still in theory the option of bulk jamming all Starlink frequencies with a very strong transmitter, drowning out all the terminals (though this is a step of last resort as you would be trying to gray out half a hemisphere pumping that much power out).
<snip>
Practically the Russians don't appear to be able to support said EW trucks with their sub par logistics system inside Ukraine. It takes fuel and maintenance support to run those EW units in the field. Both are in short and dwindling supply for the Russians, since the Ukrainians are targeting them.

Plus the survivability of those EW trucks against Ukrainian counter measures (anti-radiation missiles, drone strikes and artillery barrages) is questionable. Especially since the jamming itself broadcast the location of the emitters.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #93 on: 03/21/2022 02:53 pm »
In order to effectively jam Starlink requires a whole sky jammer. Such a jamer because of just how much ERP it would have to generate over such an semi half spherical omidirect radiation field would go through ~ 2t of fuel per day. It would be a 75kw to 100kw transmitter. It would be a supper simple target for anti-radiation munitions. A directed jammer which would work against a GEO sat would not work against multiple moving Starlink targets all over the sky.

Starlink terminals uses a very narrow beam width of around 5 degrees. And as mentioned it moves and even jumps to totally new orientations. Starlink Terminal ERP is likely to be from 4W to 20W in that very limited moving 5 degree spot. anything outside of that direction may not be able to pickup the signal at all since it would look a lot like just more background noise with its err code correction and wide band digital data that has small percentage of repetition. Although a Starlink UT could be effective targeted it makes for a very stealthy target.

Offline JayWee

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #94 on: 03/21/2022 05:05 pm »
In order to effectively jam Starlink requires a whole sky jammer. Such a jamer because of just how much ERP it would have to generate over such an semi half spherical omidirect radiation field would go through ~ 2t of fuel per day. It would be a 75kw to 100kw transmitter.
What'd be the approximate jamming range of such jammer?

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #95 on: 03/21/2022 05:10 pm »
In order to effectively jam Starlink requires a whole sky jammer. Such a jamer because of just how much ERP it would have to generate over such an semi half spherical omidirect radiation field would go through ~ 2t of fuel per day. It would be a 75kw to 100kw transmitter. It would be a supper simple target for anti-radiation munitions. A directed jammer which would work against a GEO sat would not work against multiple moving Starlink targets all over the sky.

Starlink terminals uses a very narrow beam width of around 5 degrees. And as mentioned it moves and even jumps to totally new orientations. Starlink Terminal ERP is likely to be from 4W to 20W in that very limited moving 5 degree spot. anything outside of that direction may not be able to pickup the signal at all since it would look a lot like just more background noise with its err code correction and wide band digital data that has small percentage of repetition. Although a Starlink UT could be effective targeted it makes for a very stealthy target.
I don't think this is correct. To jam an uplink, you must be in the beam, broadcasting across the spectrum the beam is using. A jammer that is not in the beam footprint will not be seen by the beam's antenna on the satellite. Any given point on the ground in is a small number of footprints, one or two from each of from one to about three satellites, and the footprints sweep across the ground quickly. Thus, you need a fairly large number of jammers, each of which must track up to about three satellites at once and jam in each of two frequency ranges toward each satellite. I do not know the shape and size of a Starlink beam footprint, so I don't know far into Ukraine a jammer must go to affect terminals further to the west. In any event, because the power it directed specifically to the satellites, the jammer needs a whole lot less power.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #96 on: 03/21/2022 05:32 pm »
 With the kind of barrage jamming need to cover any good sized area, a small network of triangulators could pinpoint the source and feed the coordinates to interested parties in no time. No hi falutin HARMs or other over priced gear needed.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #97 on: 03/21/2022 06:17 pm »
With the kind of barrage jamming need to cover any good sized area, a small network of triangulators could pinpoint the source and feed the coordinates to interested parties in no time. No hi falutin HARMs or other over priced gear needed.
The jamming is directed upward and is narrowly focused on moving satellites. Ground-based triangulation (and HARMs) would be difficult. However, as the beams sweep across the jammer, the satellites get a precise line on which the jammer must lie every minute or so, and the lines change orientation, so unless the jammer moves a whole lot the satellite operator can narrow it down quickly without using any sophisticated equipment on the ground. The software guys at Starlink probably did this already, and they may have done it a long time ago to pinpoint accidental non-hostile interference.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #98 on: 03/21/2022 06:20 pm »
With the kind of barrage jamming need to cover any good sized area, a small network of triangulators could pinpoint the source and feed the coordinates to interested parties in no time. No hi falutin HARMs or other over priced gear needed.

Don't think there is a need for ground based triangulators. The Starlink Constellation itself can sweep for emitter sources with instant location of the emitter. Since the Starlink beam footprint is small enough the line of sight from the emitter to the comsat is more than accurate enough to initiate extreme remedial action. Even more amusing is that a Starlink comsat could scan for and located a jamming emitter then pass that ground co-ordinate to the remedial forces almost instantaneously. Said remedial force in the future could be an airborne drone with a Starlink terminal commanded through the Starlink network. :o

 :) This means Starlink Constellation is truly the Skynet from the Terminator franchise, no matter the denials from Musk :)

Darn, @DanClemmensen ninja me.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : General Discussion - Thread 3
« Reply #99 on: 03/21/2022 07:32 pm »
With the kind of barrage jamming need to cover any good sized area, a small network of triangulators could pinpoint the source and feed the coordinates to interested parties in no time. No hi falutin HARMs or other over priced gear needed.

Don't think there is a need for ground based triangulators. The Starlink Constellation itself can sweep for emitter sources with instant location of the emitter. Since the Starlink beam footprint is small enough the line of sight from the emitter to the comsat is more than accurate enough to initiate extreme remedial action. Even more amusing is that a Starlink comsat could scan for and located a jamming emitter then pass that ground co-ordinate to the remedial forces almost instantaneously. Said remedial force in the future could be an airborne drone with a Starlink terminal commanded through the Starlink network. :o

 :) This means Starlink Constellation is truly the Skynet from the Terminator franchise, no matter the denials from Musk :)

Darn, @DanClemmensen ninja me.

That would be the U.S. getting directly involved in the war. Not a small decision.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

 

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