Author Topic: Mars energy market  (Read 19678 times)

Offline rklaehn

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Mars energy market
« on: 02/25/2019 05:13 pm »
Assuming everything goes well with the stainless steel starship, one of the biggest hurdles for mars settlement is the energy required to produce the return fuel. Either you need a very large number of solar panels and energy storage, or a nuclear reactor. But it seems that the latter option is unrealistic for a private company operating out of the US.

However, not everybody is as paranoid about nuclear power as the US and the western world. Both China and Russia are developing nuclear reactors at very high speed. China is developing various new reactor technologies, including molten salt reactors.

Russia supposedly even has mastered building high power nuclear reactors small enough to put into long range torpedoes and even cruise missiles.

Assuming this is true, could this be a basis for a cooperation for mars settlement? It would probably not be politically feasible for e.g. Russia to provide a small nuclear reactor to SpaceX. Neither would it be possible for SpaceX to provide a Starship to Russia due to ITAR etc.

But if Russia or China were capable of landing such a reactor on mars on their own, they might be able to barter energy for crew access. E.g. Russia or China lands a reactor that can provide 10MW(el) for 10 years, and in return gets 100 seats for Russian cosmonauts on Starship.

In the longer term, China and Russia will develop their own reusable spacecraft, and hopefully the western world will shed its irrational fear of nuclear power.

« Last Edit: 02/25/2019 05:13 pm by rklaehn »

Offline Slarty1080

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #1 on: 03/07/2019 08:54 am »
I would have thought that SpaceX would go down the solar + storage route. The mass required would be high but not implausibly so, especially if they have a year to generate the propellants. With Musk in charge Tesla technology would be a prime candidate. I would have thought that an aggressive iterative approach to weight reduction might provide some additional gains.

Another option with solar would be a space based solar power plant. This would improve efficiency considerably as it would be able to operate day and night and with suitable selection of wavelength for the beamed power, might also be better during a dust storm.

A space based solar plant would also have the advantage of not needing any propellant to land on Mars so it would be more efficient cargo wise as well. Once a permanent base is established every Starship landing would be able to bring in further panels incrementally increasing the available power as they will need as much power as they can get.
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Offline rakaydos

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #2 on: 03/07/2019 11:52 am »
Counting plants as a means of collecting solar power, Earth has actually been running a significant fraction on the Kardashev scale for millenia. Mars, regardless of having a smaller K=1, is starting from ZERO.

That needs to change. Independent self replicating solar collection (wild plants) wont be on the table for awhile, but local solar  collection production needs to be a priority, aand that capability should be expanded whenever power permits.

Offline Lar

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #3 on: 03/08/2019 04:23 am »
It will be interesting to see how things shift from SpaceX providing their own power for ISRU to a more general power supply organization as the economy blossoms. A non US nuke is an interesting twist but I would not be surprised to see the whole thing solar.
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Offline Vahe231991

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #4 on: 08/16/2023 03:18 am »
Quote
Wind power is most efficient when atmospheres are thick, but Mars’ low atmospheric density means that wind on the planet produces significantly less force than wind on Earth. For this reason, the Martian wind had not been regarded as a viable energy resource. Hartwick and colleagues have challenged this assumption and shown that diurnal and seasonal fluctuations in solar energy could be compensated for by wind energy. Hartwick says that they “were surprised to find that, despite Mars’ thin atmosphere, winds are still strong enough to produce power across large portions of the Martian surface”.

The study suggests that wind could work in combination with other energy resources such as solar to boost power generation. This could be especially helpful during local and global dust storms, when solar power decreases and available wind power increases. Wind would also be a useful resource at night and around the winter solstice.

https://physicsworld.com/a/wind-energy-could-power-human-habitations-on-mars/ [dated January 23, 2023]

Offline spacenut

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #5 on: 08/16/2023 11:10 am »
Solar will work if you have a year to produce enough fuel to return.  And like someone said, solar farms will grow with each landing Starship bringing panels.  The problem with a small nuke power plant, even if another country makes it, is launching it from the US.  Permits have to be acquired for each launch.  SpaceX once landed on Mars, may be able to get NASA's help to launch a nuclear power plant. 

I could see massive solar farms using rolled solar panels.  Large battery banks would also have to be brought for night use.  Small nuclear plants could be brought, say around 10-20 ton units on trips to be coupled together for a larger power source for 24/7 power.  What would be the power production of solar vs nuclear mass wise on transporting to Mars?  Has anyone worked this out?

Online goretexguy

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #6 on: 08/17/2023 05:46 pm »
It will be interesting to see how things shift from SpaceX providing their own power for ISRU to a more general power supply organization as the economy blossoms. A non US nuke is an interesting twist but I would not be surprised to see the whole thing solar.

I suspect that Solar will 'win' simply because it is stupid easy to deliver and deploy compared to other options. Nobody fears fallout from a load of solar panels on a failed Starship launch.

However. At some point solar won't scale very well, proportional to the size of the base or colony. Local real estate will be covered with panels, and growth will require greater and greater area to supply energy needs. As that point approaches, nuclear will be the only real option for baseline power but that day is far down the road.

So. Lets first get to Mars and set up a viable long-term habitat. Once that base has been in use as long as the ISS, all sorts of options will emerge.

Online DanClemmensen

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #7 on: 08/17/2023 07:10 pm »
However. At some point solar won't scale very well, proportional to the size of the base or colony. Local real estate will be covered with panels, and growth will require greater and greater area to supply energy needs. As that point approaches, nuclear will be the only real option for baseline power but that day is far down the road.
Why won't it scale? Cost of land will be essentially free for the foreseeable future, so you continue to build and install at the same cost/kwh forever, except the cost will decline as you make gradual improvements in production efficiency.

Offline MickQ

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #8 on: 08/18/2023 12:45 am »
Will it get to the point when the land area taken up by the solar farms is restricting the actual settlement growth ?

Offline Asteroza

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #9 on: 08/19/2023 12:01 am »
Can thermal energy be a useful commodity? There's semi-serious talk of steam tanker trucks on earth. If you had a cask of hot liquid silicon, would that be functionally useful in terms of a market?

Offline laszlo

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #10 on: 08/19/2023 12:34 pm »
I'm wondering about OP's premise that the nuclear "...option is unrealistic for a private company operating out of the US." Why is that? Private companies have been building commercial reactors in the US for 65 years. There are also any number of research and medical reactors in operation here. No one wants a nuke in their back yard, but a small power generator on Mars? Most people don't even know where Mars is in the sky.

The only issue I see is the concern about an exploding SH/SS spilling a reactor on Paducah, but the fanboiz have been assuring us for years that by then SH/SS will be operating like an airliner and be so safe that it won't even need a LES. In that case, what's the problem? With the public conditioned to an unending stream of successful launches so boringly flawless that there's no news coverage, they will have a hard time getting worked up about a small reactor heading to a dot in the sky that they can't even point out.

Offline TrevorMonty

Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #11 on: 08/19/2023 08:39 pm »
Not in this side of 2100.
By time settlement is that big the older close in solar farms would be at end of life.

Offline stefan r

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #12 on: 10/17/2023 05:51 pm »
I'm wondering about OP's premise that the nuclear "...option is unrealistic for a private company operating out of the US." Why is that?

A weapons grade plutonium 239,  U235, or U233 reactor core would be far more compact. 



The only issue I see is the concern about an exploding SH/SS spilling a reactor on Paducah, but the fanboiz have been assuring us for years that by then SH/SS will be operating like an airliner and be so safe that it won't even need a LES. In that case, what's the problem? With the public conditioned to an unending stream of successful launches so boringly flawless that there's no news coverage, they will have a hard time getting worked up about a small reactor heading to a dot in the sky that they can't even point out.

No one is launching a loaded reactor off of Earth's surface.  The fuel rods would be inserted after it is safely away from Earth.  The plutonium would go in its own launch or on a human rated launch.  The plutonium rod would be inside a container capable of rentering without breaking up.  If the rocket explodes you retrieve the fuel rod.   Getting rid of weapons grade material makes Earth much safer.  It is highly unlikely that terrorists could steal a rod from Mars.  Once they irradiate it for a few years it stops being weapons grade.  The reactor can use natural uranium rods around the weapons grade rods.  That will breed more plutonium over time. 

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #13 on: 10/18/2023 02:36 pm »
A nuclear reactor is not required.  It would be a nice to have, but if we can do without, why not do without?


My own proposal is here:
https://marspedia.org/Cost_of_energy_on_Mars

Nuclear is cheaper, but solar can do the job. Solar exists, nuclear does not.  What happens in the longer term is really up in the air, and both solutions can be argued favorably.  If nuclear becomes common on Earth, then is will likely be common on Mars, because there will be a strong home market.  developing specific reactors for the Mars market only is unlikely to be economical.

There will not be that much market for heat,  and food production will quickly dominate the demand side of things.  As population grows, fuel production becomes secondary. 

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #14 on: 10/18/2023 03:44 pm »
Can thermal energy be a useful commodity? There's semi-serious talk of steam tanker trucks on earth. If you had a cask of hot liquid silicon, would that be functionally useful in terms of a market?
If you have food production, unless it is in very lossy greenhouses, you automatically have too much heat in your habitat. It's worse if you have high density food production, as the heat per m2 is even higher.
Because Mars is so cold, you need well insulated habitats.  Because the habitats are well insulated, they can overheat easily.  So heat is more of a bother than a resource.

Offline lamontagne

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #15 on: 10/18/2023 03:47 pm »
Solar will work if you have a year to produce enough fuel to return.  And like someone said, solar farms will grow with each landing Starship bringing panels.  The problem with a small nuke power plant, even if another country makes it, is launching it from the US.  Permits have to be acquired for each launch.  SpaceX once landed on Mars, may be able to get NASA's help to launch a nuclear power plant. 

I could see massive solar farms using rolled solar panels.  Large battery banks would also have to be brought for night use.  Small nuclear plants could be brought, say around 10-20 ton units on trips to be coupled together for a larger power source for 24/7 power.  What would be the power production of solar vs nuclear mass wise on transporting to Mars?  Has anyone worked this out?
Yes, validation is welcome however!

https://marspedia.org/Cost_of_energy_on_Mars

Online Robotbeat

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #16 on: 10/23/2023 01:09 pm »
Will it get to the point when the land area taken up by the solar farms is restricting the actual settlement growth ?
No. People have weird ideas of how much land is needed for solar. Compared to things like agriculture, the land requirement is tiny.
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Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #17 on: 11/01/2023 01:24 am »
If you have food production, unless it is in very lossy greenhouses, you automatically have too much heat in your habitat.

...Because the habitats are well insulated, they can overheat easily.  So heat is more of a bother than a resource.

If heat is a bother, why would you use "well insulated" habitats, and why wouldn't you use "very lossy" greenhouses?

Insulation isn't free. If it just adds problems ("bother"), then surely you.... won't bother!  ???

Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #18 on: 11/01/2023 02:28 am »
My own proposal is here:
https://marspedia.org/Cost_of_energy_on_Mars

Nuclear is cheaper, but solar can do the job.

Note that this is only true if:

    • You assume building new nuclear costs $5/watt when built for Mars at the megawatt scale, when in reality it costs $8-13/watt when built for Earth at the gigawatt scale

    • You assume a much higher transport cost than SpaceX ($500/kg vs $140/kg); this one assumption increases the transport cost delta from $14/watt to $51/watt

This "encyclopedia" seems to contain some heavily fudged pro-nuclear numbers.  :-\
« Last Edit: 11/01/2023 02:48 am by Twark_Main »

Offline LMT

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Re: Mars energy market
« Reply #19 on: 11/01/2023 04:12 am »
This "encyclopedia" seems to contain some heavily fudged pro-nuclear numbers.  :-\

Lamontagne ignored basic info there; it's not a useful text.  But we saw this. 1 2 3

Tags: wind Mars 
 

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