Author Topic: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings  (Read 226869 times)

Offline scdavis

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #220 on: 06/08/2020 05:13 pm »
Interesting that on June 3, the FCC requested information from SpaceX on its recent modification request.  SpaceX responded the next day with the information.

Favorite (slightly passive-aggresive) quote, bolding mine: "SpaceX appreciates the Commission’s attention to detail with respect to its orbital debris mitigation oversight, and looks forward to seeing requests for that same level of detail with respect to other pending NGSO applications."

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #221 on: 06/09/2020 11:22 pm »
twitter.com/megaconstellati/status/1258981186434740225

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In opposition to @SpaceX's request to lower altitude of all #Starlink orbital planes @amazon argues in @FCC letter SpaceX should inform public about percentage of sats working nominally, warns sats will intersect with one another & those of #ProjectKuiper:
licensing.fcc.gov/myibfs/downloa…

https://twitter.com/bbcamos/status/1270489345942794245

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Astonishing that @SpaceX may have used outdated models & data to assess #spacedebris impact risk for Starlink. Equally astonishing that the assessments do not account for its own satellite footprint, or  those from other proposed constellations. Simply not good enough.

Offline Hummy

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #222 on: 06/10/2020 09:22 pm »
SpaceX is asking for an occasional 5-second boost in TT&C transmit power.

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SpaceX has found that acquiring all 60 satellites in a launch package upon initial insertion is very challenging, and failure to establish contact quickly can mean that a healthy satellite will reenter the atmosphere and be lost.

Accordingly,  SpaceX  requests  that  the  STA  extension  authorize  its  satellites  to  transmit  TT&C signals in the 12.15-12.25 GHz band at a slightly higher power level so that they are easier to acquire after insertion. At present, SpaceX satellites transmit TT&C signals at 14 dBm upon orbital  insertion  at  280  km  altitude.    SpaceX  proposes  to  boost  the  power  to  23  dBm  under  the  following  circumstances.    In  this  regard,  it  is  important  to  note  that  all  SpaceX  satellites  are  programmed not to transmit until they have been contacted by an earth station.  For the first 24 hours after insertion, the satellites would be programmed to respond at the current nominal power level.  If they have not established a link within that timeframe, they will then respond at the higher power level if contacted within the next 48 hours.   At the end of this 72-hour cycle, the satellites will reboot and repeat the 24/48 hour power cycle.  At any point in this process after the satellites establish contact with SpaceX’s TT&C earth station, they will quickly revert to their authorized (lower) power levels.

SpaceX estimates that in the large majority of cases its satellites will need to transmit for approximately  five  seconds  at  the  higher  power  level  before  reducing  back  to  the  currently  authorized level.  That should be sufficient to downlink trajectory information so that SpaceX’s TT&C ground station can track the spacecraft and maintain contact.  In a small number of cases, it is possible that the satellite may be unable to close the link for the full five second period, and thus will continue to transmit bursts of trajectory information until it is either successful or passes out of the TT&C earth station’s view.

Offline Hummy

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #223 on: 06/11/2020 07:24 pm »
SpaceX withdrew 3 gateway applications. I marked them with yellow color on the map. I'll wait for a few days to see if they refile at the same locations. If not I'll move the gateways to a hidden by default layer.

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #224 on: 06/11/2020 08:22 pm »
SpaceX withdrew 3 gateway applications. I marked them with yellow color on the map. I'll wait for a few days to see if they refile at the same locations. If not I'll move the gateways to a hidden by default layer.

Cape Canaveral, FL; De Leon Springs, FL; Savannah, TN.  These are all Ka-band.
« Last Edit: 06/11/2020 08:23 pm by gongora »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #225 on: 06/11/2020 09:44 pm »
 Juneau, Dutch Harbor and Oahu and they'll have the U.S. and most of the population of Canada covered. Pretty good chunk of Mexico too.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Barley

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #226 on: 06/12/2020 04:31 am »
That is a map of where a satellite can talk to a ground station, not a coverage map.

To have a connection you need to be able to see a satellite, and it needs to be able to see a ground station.

Not only do you want to be inside the orange lines, but you want the entire 900 km circle centered on you to be within the orange lines.

Consider a customer near Mexico City.  They can see satellites in a 900km radius circle, but almost half of those (to the south) will not be able to see a ground station.  So they would either need almost twice as many satellites, or a ground station in or south of Mexico City (Acapulco would be good).

Similarly if you are outside the orange lines in Cancun roughly half the satellites you can see would be in range of a ground station, so you would have about the same connectivity as in Mexico City

You have the same issue, but to a lesser extent, near Miami.  Occasionally you would be able to see a satellite south of Cuba, but it would not be able to see Cape Canaveral (or any other ground station).

If they don't want ground stations outside the US, there would be slight, perhaps insignificant, improvements in coverage of small parts of the contiguous US by putting ground stations near the remaining "corners" -- Nogales, AZ; Grand Isle, LA; Key West; Hatteras; Cape Cod.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #227 on: 06/12/2020 07:29 pm »
That is a map of where a satellite can talk to a ground station, not a coverage map.

To have a connection you need to be able to see a satellite, and it needs to be able to see a ground station.

Not only do you want to be inside the orange lines, but you want the entire 900 km circle centered on you to be within the orange lines.

Consider a customer near Mexico City.  They can see satellites in a 900km radius circle, but almost half of those (to the south) will not be able to see a ground station.  So they would either need almost twice as many satellites, or a ground station in or south of Mexico City (Acapulco would be good).

Similarly if you are outside the orange lines in Cancun roughly half the satellites you can see would be in range of a ground station, so you would have about the same connectivity as in Mexico City

You have the same issue, but to a lesser extent, near Miami.  Occasionally you would be able to see a satellite south of Cuba, but it would not be able to see Cape Canaveral (or any other ground station).

If they don't want ground stations outside the US, there would be slight, perhaps insignificant, improvements in coverage of small parts of the contiguous US by putting ground stations near the remaining "corners" -- Nogales, AZ; Grand Isle, LA; Key West; Hatteras; Cape Cod.
Figure all that with Gateways looking down to 25 degrees but users staying above 45.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #228 on: 06/12/2020 07:46 pm »
Maybe they're just focusing on higher latitudes right now.  New gateway filings:
Colburn, ID https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01498
Butte, MT https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01497
Tionesta, CA https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01495
Hitterdal, MN https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01494

Offline Hummy

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #229 on: 06/13/2020 10:39 pm »
Map of Starlink gateways updated.

* 3 withdrawn applications have been moved to hidden by default "Withdrawn" layer.
* "Final service areas" layer removed according to amended gateway applications and Gen2 filing.
* Recently filed applications added.

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #230 on: 06/16/2020 09:30 pm »
Two new gateways in the southeastern US.
Baxley, GA: https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01527
Robertsdale, AL: https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01528

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #231 on: 06/17/2020 12:47 am »
Two new gateways in the southeastern US.
Baxley, GA: https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01527
Robertsdale, AL: https://fcc.report/IBFS/SES-LIC-INTR2020-01528
A footnote as to why Robertsdale, AL. HWY 90 although just a 2 lane highway in most places also is the main right of way for the largest main east/west fiber optic cable emplacement which follows HWY 90 from Jacksonville, FL on the Atlantic all the way into Louisiana and then on into Texas. It follows HWY 90 since there is power availability along all of HWY 90 and very little availability of power along I-10. So the very small town is likely to have a near to HWY 90 building (a few hundred meters to just tens of meters from the optical cable and probably a major retransmission node) that can be rented with a flat roof capable of sprouting a lot of pizza dishes access to natural gas for generator backup plus also enough room likely to have solar too. If not the area is sparsely populated so land is easily available along HWY 90 and the optical fiber emplacement.

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #232 on: 06/17/2020 12:53 am »
The gateway antennas are not the same as the user terminals, and solar certainly isn't a requirement.  The user terminals seen at gateway sites are probably just for testing.

Offline oldAtlas_Eguy

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #233 on: 06/17/2020 02:00 am »
My suspicion is that these gateways are predominantly located on existing Internet backbone cabling or at major switching nodes. The Baxley, GA location looks to define a Y with a Jacksonville, FL leg, an Atlanta, GA leg and a Charleston,SC leg. Even though the cities are small (only a few thousand inhabitants) they are flush with Internet access.

You are correct about the Pizza on a stick UTs. They are likely Ku band only. The Gateway would need higher gain Ka band antennas with little to no RFI between antennas to function correctly to be able to connect to many sats at once. The FCC licenses are probably related to these Ka band antennas and their much higher ERP (Effective Radiated Power).

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #234 on: 06/17/2020 03:53 am »
 I need to get a better photo of the gateway dishes. They're in two nice, neat rows of three now. I can't see them operating from there if they have to go down to 25 degrees. Most modem makers tell you to have at least 5 degrees of clearance from obstacles.
 The user dishes look like they're all tilted to the north, which I guess makes sense. It could just be that whoever stored them set them all the same.
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #235 on: 06/17/2020 03:57 am »
My suspicion is that these gateways are predominantly located on existing Internet backbone cabling or at major switching nodes. The Baxley, GA location looks to define a Y with a Jacksonville, FL leg, an Atlanta, GA leg and a Charleston,SC leg. Even though the cities are small (only a few thousand inhabitants) they are flush with Internet access.

You are correct about the Pizza on a stick UTs. They are likely Ku band only. The Gateway would need higher gain Ka band antennas with little to no RFI between antennas to function correctly to be able to connect to many sats at once. The FCC licenses are probably related to these Ka band antennas and their much higher ERP (Effective Radiated Power).
I haven't worked with ka band. Would these guys be something like 50db gain?
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #236 on: 06/17/2020 04:05 am »

Offline Nomadd

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #237 on: 06/17/2020 02:50 pm »
 49.5. Not my worst wild guess of the week.
 50W into a 50db antenna seems kind of excessive for that short a distance. But I don't have any experience at that kind of data rate.
 And, a better photo.
« Last Edit: 06/17/2020 02:59 pm by Nomadd »
Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Online meberbs

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #238 on: 06/17/2020 06:16 pm »
49.5. Not my worst wild guess of the week.
 50W into a 50db antenna seems kind of excessive for that short a distance. But I don't have any experience at that kind of data rate.
 And, a better photo.
I am not sure what you consider a "short" distance, but at a 25 degree elevation angle from the horizon, a 550 km altitude satellite is 1123.3 km away. Short compared to interplanetary distances, or geostationary, but doesn't seem that short on terrestrial scale. Using the mW/cm^2 units, this means a power of 2.8e-8 mW /cm^2 at the satellite, or 0.28 uW/m^2, not counting things like atmospheric attenuation. Assuming the receiving antenna is 1 m^2 this would be -35 dBm of incident power. I think 1 m^2 may be a reasonable estimate of Starlink satellite antenna size, but of course the physical area of the antenna is not pointed directly at the ground station, with the beam being directed via phased array. Actually working out SNR from that would take info I don't think we have. (And I assume maximum power is probably for some kind of worst case situation during initial signal acquisition)

Doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but I am used to rather specialized RF links (such as a "signal" being -90dBm thermal background noise) rather than standard comm links, so my definition of reasonable incident power in this case is somewhat guesswork.

Online gongora

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Re: Starlink : New FCC and ITU Filings
« Reply #239 on: 06/29/2020 06:18 pm »

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