Author Topic: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)  (Read 80428 times)

Offline meekGee

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #80 on: 06/14/2019 12:07 am »
*snip*

The subcontractor train is an established fact in traditional aerospace, with the predictable outcome.

It's annoying when a "new space" company is established and immediately falls into the same pattern.

It depends on the part, but it's almost always going to be cheaper and faster to subcontract out to someone who specializes in whatever part you need, rather than purchasing all the tooling, raw materials, hiring people with the know-how, and slowly build up your internal knowledge base to produce the part on your own.

Everyone subcontracts. Even SpaceX, though they do a substantial amount of work in-house.
There's a difference between buying COTS parts from a vendor, to subcontracting a small job, to basically "subcontracting" everything and becoming just a contract manager.

That's how you get companies with almost no core competency except for the ability to get contracts.   I know "everyone does it", but that's how the industry got to the state that's in.
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Offline yg1968

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #81 on: 06/15/2019 01:45 pm »
SNC seems to be doing a good job out of subcontracting a lot of their work. Same thing for NGIS. Not because SpaceX prefers vertical integration means that it is the only way of doing things.
« Last Edit: 06/15/2019 01:46 pm by yg1968 »

Offline meekGee

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #82 on: 06/16/2019 01:27 pm »
SNC seems to be doing a good job out of subcontracting a lot of their work. Same thing for NGIS. Not because SpaceX prefers vertical integration means that it is the only way of doing things.
Of course it's not the only way, since as I said, everyone's doing it the other way ...

Vertical integration is definitely the hardest way to do things, but without a doubt resulted in the most radical, rapid, and effective progress we've seen in aerospace in decades, and by a large margin.

This is not only circumstantial. It is easy to see how VI plays across the technology deck to enable this progress. W/o it, all of SpaceX's programs would have been many times slower and more expensive, if they were to happen at all.
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Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #83 on: 06/16/2019 08:06 pm »
You know “Aerospace inflation”? I.e. how things in Aerospace have, overall, increased in price a lot faster than everything else, even including increased capability?

The entire supply chain has had half a century of cost growth and stagnation and lack of spending discipline. That’s why vertically integration is necessary for a company like THAT WHICH SHALL NOT BE NAMED.
« Last Edit: 06/16/2019 10:43 pm by Robotbeat »
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Online gongora

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #84 on: 06/16/2019 10:19 pm »
This isn't a SpaceX thread.

Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #85 on: 06/17/2019 03:56 pm »
twitter.com/bigelowspace/status/1140644245490954241?s=21

Quote
More on our "First Base": How do we help protect astronauts from radiation on the surface of the moon? Placing regolith over their heads has long been considered necessary but previous methods have not been practical. On the lunar surface, the simpler the construction the better.

https://twitter.com/bigelowspace/status/1140644376550367232

Quote
Astronauts fill durable tubes with regolith. The tubes (~20 m long) are laced over the habitat to build a desired thickness. There is a simple approach to this placement. This approach to radiation protection doesn’t require moving parts. The astronauts perform the tube loading.

twitter.com/bigelowspace/status/1140644495156842496?s=21

Quote
Outside of the habitat, an enclosed rover outfitted with water or other tiles provides much needed shielding on the lunar surface. The two person enclosed rover and the solar field are deployed from the two warehouses of "First Base".

https://twitter.com/bigelowspace/status/1140644716301524997

Quote
Close-ups from a table model at our plant that we quickly put together about 15 years ago. As you can see we have refined some of these concepts.
« Last Edit: 06/17/2019 03:58 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline libra

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #86 on: 06/17/2019 04:00 pm »
Or just land near the Marius Hills Hole (MHH) and gently lower a Sundancer inside. Dust, radiations, insane variation of temperatures: gone. Et voilà !

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #87 on: 06/17/2019 04:54 pm »
{snip}

Quote
Astronauts fill durable tubes with regolith. The tubes (~20 m long) are laced over the habitat to build a desired thickness. There is a simple approach to this placement. This approach to radiation protection doesn’t require moving parts. The astronauts perform the tube loading.

Filling the tubes will require many hours of manual work in spacesuits. This is not a good option.

Offline Comga

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #88 on: 06/17/2019 11:27 pm »
{snip}

Quote
Astronauts fill durable tubes with regolith. The tubes (~20 m long) are laced over the habitat to build a desired thickness. There is a simple approach to this placement. This approach to radiation protection doesn’t require moving parts. The astronauts perform the tube loading.

Filling the tubes will require many hours of manual work in spacesuits. This is not a good option.

Astronauts may be the most versatile, but they are undoubtedly the most expensive “moving parts” one could imagine.
This is not thought through, even though Bigelow hinted he had a solution years ago.

The caption says the model is something they built quickly 15 years ago.
That’s a blatant admission that they did not and never intended to put in a professional effort.

“He’s dead, Jim!”
What kind of wastrels would dump a perfectly good booster in the ocean after just one use?

Online DigitalMan

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #89 on: 06/18/2019 01:56 am »
{snip}

Quote
Astronauts fill durable tubes with regolith. The tubes (~20 m long) are laced over the habitat to build a desired thickness. There is a simple approach to this placement. This approach to radiation protection doesn’t require moving parts. The astronauts perform the tube loading.

Filling the tubes will require many hours of manual work in spacesuits. This is not a good option.

Astronauts may be the most versatile, but they are undoubtedly the most expensive “moving parts” one could imagine.
This is not thought through, even though Bigelow hinted he had a solution years ago.

The caption says the model is something they built quickly 15 years ago.
That’s a blatant admission that they did not and never intended to put in a professional effort.

“He’s dead, Jim!”

Eliminating moving parts is an odd goal in my opinion.  Once the base is set up there are surely going to be attempts to mine lunar ice and other elements, no?

Eliminating something that is inevitable seems like a waste of time.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #90 on: 06/18/2019 02:15 am »
Space suits are cheaper than any large space-rated robotics. Astronauts themselves are self-replicating.
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Offline meekGee

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #91 on: 06/18/2019 03:30 am »
Space suits are cheaper than any large space-rated robotics. Astronauts themselves are self-replicating.
Not while in their spacesuits they aren't.
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Offline ZChris13

Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #92 on: 06/18/2019 03:54 am »
Space suits are cheaper than any large space-rated robotics. Astronauts themselves are self-replicating.
Not while in their spacesuits they aren't.
It's not at useful timescales for current missions, although hopefully we'll see that change before the end of my life.

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #93 on: 06/18/2019 03:58 am »
Space suits are cheaper than any large space-rated robotics. Astronauts themselves are self-replicating.
Not while in their spacesuits they aren't.
Life, uh, finds a way...

https://www.fastcompany.com/3068263/meet-the-designer-of-nasas-next-generation-spacesuit-diaper

(Where’s the Party thread?)
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline meekGee

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #94 on: 06/18/2019 04:00 am »
Space suits are cheaper than any large space-rated robotics. Astronauts themselves are self-replicating.
Not while in their spacesuits they aren't.
Life, uh, finds a way...

https://www.fastcompany.com/3068263/meet-the-designer-of-nasas-next-generation-spacesuit-diaper

(Where’s the Party thread?)
Something something rocky noodles something
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Online FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #95 on: 07/19/2019 07:08 pm »
Hmm, S2 appears to have shrunk and BA330 fits easily into the fairing ...

https://twitter.com/bigelowspace/status/1152289674670383104

Quote
How a #B330 could be turned into a lunar base (First Base).
« Last Edit: 07/19/2019 07:11 pm by FutureSpaceTourist »

Offline GWH

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #96 on: 07/19/2019 08:07 pm »
Hmm, S2 appears to have shrunk and BA330 fits easily into the fairing ...


Maybe, that warehouse/docking node/tug scales a fair bit too long. Renderings to scale have never been Bigelow's strong suit...

I imagine the folks at ULA aren't real happy with these graphics...
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/10/ula-bigelow-expand-association-lunar-depot-plan/

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #97 on: 07/19/2019 08:30 pm »
Hmm, S2 appears to have shrunk and BA330 fits easily into the fairing ...

https://twitter.com/bigelowspace/status/1152289674670383104

Quote
How a #B330 could be turned into a lunar base (First Base).

The more I look at that gif, the worse the rocket gets. Side boosters separating at the same time as S2, an enormous interstage for some reason, wrong shape of the fairing...
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Offline high road

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Re: Bigelow Aerospace Update and Discussion Thread (4)
« Reply #99 on: 08/12/2019 01:25 pm »

Not sure whether this is a sign that inflatable modules perform better than expected or inflatable modules' progress stagnating...

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