Quantum Gravitons Resemble a Doubled Gluon

[Stormbringer]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=search-for-new-physics

these guys are not kooks. they could be wrong but they are not your usual fringe shady science types. they are recipients of the Sakurai prize:

https://www6.slac.stanford.edu/news/2013-10-18-Dixon-Sakurai.aspx

according to them their analysis using post feynman analytical tools says that a graviton appears to be a double copy of a gluon which is the force carrier for the strong nuclear force.

a discussion of the history of their analytical mathematics may be found here:

 http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2013/10/03/guest-post-lance-dixon-on-calculating-amplitudes/

The guest makes a valiant attempt at "layman"izing the math involved.

anyway let me just point out that to me this appears to be very similar to a certain famous/infamous fringe scientist's claims about gravity and the strong force being essentially the same thing.

[sanman]

The force of gravity looks like two copies of the strong subnuclear interactions working in unison.

I don't even know how to read that. But does their conjecture make any predictions that can be tested in order to improve confidence in it? Would this require LHC-scale energies to do it?

[Stormbringer]

I'll only address the parts i understand well enough to make an intelligent reply to. and my information comes from the interview of the coauthor where he goes into the background of the math.

when Feynman's method became too cumbersome to use to advance the physics anymore researchers developed a new type of formalism to simplify the process a sort of super dimensional analysis that removed redundancies and reduced fractions and the like. this new formalism was advanced an refined over time to the form it is in now. to verify that the math was valid they checked it verses all the known feynman solutions and got the same results. not only that but at the time the new formalism was coming out they applied it to problems for which the feynman approach was in the process of solving prior to the announcements of the feynman derived results. Thus their new formalisms predicted the answers the feynman eventually produced.


when the feynman derived answers came they matched the new formalism's answers. the formalism has been around since the late eighties or early nineties and is pretty well vetted.   

the new formalism derives accurate descriptions of the physics in complete agreement with the older solutions. it has predicted stuff that was later confirmed by the older feynman formalism. there is every reason to believe that it has accurate predictive and descriptive power.

now i am not a theorist or a mathematician. it surprised me that feynman's method produced hundreds of thousands of diagrams for just one problem. i had trouble enough understanding the dozen or so commonly given in high school text books but i do think that the new method is completely valid.

EDIT:  now it is entirely possible for solutions to come from theory that are only mathematical results that no one looks for in the real world. the math may be right but the solution is in a set of solutions that do not occur in the real world. that happens. I sure hope that their "gluon = graviton" thing is not in that category. i want it to be true because if it is we will reach the stars with it.

[Stormbringer]

sorry for the second scatter shot reply but i think it sure is testable. but that goes into an area that may be considered too fringe smelling for the forums well being. but you could look for confirmation by mucking about with certain elongated nuclei elements such as bismuth where some allege that the strong force exchange field pokes out beyond the electronic limits of an atom.

[sanman]

Hmm, well in that case, maybe some of these nucleonic isomers would also provide similarly useful possibilities for testing - or is that what you were referring to? I think I put up a post on Bismuth-212 some time back:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32318.0


Since nucleonic isomers offer up altered states of the strong force, and this new theory connects the strong force to gravity, then maybe this would be a good place to start looking. I'm not sure what the electronic shell has to do with things, since that's not really strong force, right?

I wonder if it might be possible to have nucleus which behaves anisotropically in a gravitational field - ie. the response of the nucleus to the gravitational field would depend on the orientation of the nucleus.

[R7]

Does this double gluon thingie give any kind of green light to exotic space flight propulsion concepts?

[Stormbringer]

Does this double gluon thingie give any kind of green light to exotic space flight propulsion concepts?

it does...  if a series of more ifs is also true. first the maths must describe real world physical reality. then the strong force must be accessible. then it must be subject to alignment amplification and so forth.

at least it makes it theoretically possible. that's a start.

[Stormbringer]

Hmm, well in that case, maybe some of these nucleonic isomers would also provide similarly useful possibilities for testing - or is that what you were referring to? I think I put up a post on Bismuth-212 some time back:

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=32318.0


Since nucleonic isomers offer up altered states of the strong force, and this new theory connects the strong force to gravity, then maybe this would be a good place to start looking. I'm not sure what the electronic shell has to do with things, since that's not really strong force, right?

I wonder if it might be possible to have nucleus which behaves anisotropically in a gravitational field - ie. the response of the nucleus to the gravitational field would depend on the orientation of the nucleus.

good find. i need to study the strong force interactions of nucleonic isomers as well as nucleons in the ground state. in the same way you can align the magnetic domains in iron to make a magnet you should be able to align the nuclei of diamagnetic materials such as bismuth. this way any weird effect would be at least somewhat more obvious to measurement.

i mentioned the electron shell only WRT to strong force needing to be accessible. the nucleonic shells are the real question. certain atoms like bismuth have an odd shape due to odd protons in the outer nucleonic shells. That is real science. there are spherical, pear shaped and american football/rugby ball shaped nuclei. i read an article on that just a few days ago.

in kook science this fact is taken to mean that the strong interaction field somehow pokes out past the nucleus in heavier nuclei that have an elongated shape. and i have read of some that say it protrudes past the electron orbitals though in reality that last bit probably isn't true and probably is not necessary.

[JulesVerneATV]

LISA Construction Begins
https://www.universetoday.com/articles/lisa-construction-begins

In search of gravitons, the particle that could unify physics
https://sciencereader.com/in-search-of-gravitons-the-particle-that-could-unify-physics/
Can we detect gravitons, the particles that carry gravity? Physics faces its ultimate quantum challenge.

'Existence of gravitons'?
https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/13606/existence-of-gravitons

'Mathematically, what is a graviton'?
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/679675/mathematically-what-is-a-graviton

gravity particles or messenger particles mediating particle/field taken seriously,  a gravity scatter of particle or something like when photon propagator splits into quark-antiquark pairs maybe with photons weak interaction W bosons, observation of photon-W scattering

Will Physics Ever Prove the Existence of This Bizarre Particle?
https://glassalmanac.com/will-physics-ever-prove-the-existence-of-this-bizarre-particle/

LISA Science Objectives and Investigations
https://www.cosmos.esa.int/web/lisa/science-objectives1
 

The Science Obejctives (SO) for LISA describe the science that LISA will enable. The subsequent Science Investigations (SI) highlight the ways of obtaining the science by evaluating the LISA data. More details of the science objectives can be found in the LISA Science Requirement Document (SciRD)
SO 1    Study the formation and evolution of compact binary stars in the Milky Way Galaxy
     SI 1.1    Elucidate the formation and evolution of Galactic Binaries by measuring their period, spatial and mass distributions
     SI 1.2    Enable joint gravitational and electromagnetic observations of galactic binaries to study the interplay between gravitational radiation and tidal dissipation in interacting stellar systems
 
SO 2    Trace the origin, growth and merger history of massive black holes across cosmic ages
     SI 2.1    Search for seed black holes at cosmic dawn
     SI 2.2    Study the growth mechanism of MBHs before the epoch of reionization
     SI 2.3    Observation of EM counterparts to unveil the astrophysical environment around merging binaries
     SI 2.4    Test the existence of intermediate-mass black holes (IMBHs)
 
SO 3    Probe the dynamics of dense nuclear clusters using extreme mass-ratio inspirals (EMRIs)
     SI 3.1    Study the immediate environment of Milky Way like massive black holes (MBHs) at low redshift
 
SO 4    Understand the astrophysics of stellar origin black holes
     SI 4.1    Study the close environment of Stellar Origin Black Holes (SOBHs) by enabling multi-band and multi-messenger observations at the time of coalescence
     SI 4.2    Disentangle SOBHs binary formation channels
 
SO 5    Explore the fundamental nature of gravity and black holes
     SI 5.1    Use ring-down characteristics observed in massive black hole binary (MBHB) coalescences to test whether the post-merger objects are the black holes predicted by General Theory of Relativity
     SI 5.2    Use EMRIs to explore the multipolar structure of MBHs
     SI 5.3    Testing for the presence of beyond-GR emission channels
     SI 5.4    Test the propagation properties of gravitational waves
     5.1.    Test the presence of massive fields around massive black holes with masses larger than 103 M☉
 
SO 6    Probe the rate of expansion of the Universe
     SI 6.1    Measure the dimensionless Hubble parameter by means of gravitational wave observations only
     SI 6.2    Constrain cosmological parameters through joint gravitational wave and electro-magnetic observations
 
SO 7    Understand stochastic gravitational wave backgrounds and their implications for the early Universe and TeV-scale particle physics
     SI 7.1    Characterise the astrophysical stochastic gravitational wave background
     SI 7.2    Measure, or set upper limits on, the spectral shape of the cosmological stochastic gravitational wave background
 
SO 8    Search for gravitational wave bursts and unforeseen sources
     SI 8.1    Search for cusps and kinks of cosmic strings
     SI 8.2    Search for unmodelled sources