Author Topic: China to have new rockets  (Read 627876 times)

Offline PM3

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #520 on: 09/18/2019 11:46 am »
Here is a nice overview of existing and planned Chinese launchers.

https://china-aerospace.blog/2019/09/12/thoughts-on-the-hype-about-chinas-newspace-launcher-startups-part-1/

(But CZ-3C is 3.8 t GTO, not LEO; Hyperbola-2 is 1.9 t LEO; and I think CZ-2F is out of service - replaced by CZ-5 for crewed flights, and not viable for uncrewed.)
« Last Edit: 09/18/2019 12:46 pm by PM3 »
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Offline TorenAltair

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #521 on: 09/18/2019 02:25 pm »
CZ7, not the CZ5, is planned to replace CZ2F, but this is still a few years away.

Offline ZachS09

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #522 on: 09/18/2019 07:16 pm »
Long March 5 did not make its debut in 2017 as listed in parentheses. That would tell everyone that Long March 5 failed on its maiden voyage. Its actual first flight in 2016 was a success even though the second stage shut down early and the third stage burned longer to place Shijian 17 in GEO.
« Last Edit: 10/02/2019 08:48 pm by ZachS09 »
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Offline Phillip Clark

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #523 on: 09/18/2019 08:37 pm »
CZ7, not the CZ5, is planned to replace CZ2F, but this is still a few years away.

I think that this is onl;y true in the sense that the new generation manned spacecraft which will eventually replace Shenzhou will fly on the CZ-7 for Earth orbit missions.   In the meantime the CZ-2F will continue to launch Shenzhou spacecraft until that spacecraft is retired.

Are there still plans to add the LOX/LH stage to the existing CZ-7?   This was part of the original planning for the vehicle.
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #524 on: 09/18/2019 09:13 pm »
CZ7, not the CZ5, is planned to replace CZ2F, but this is still a few years away.

I think that this is onl;y true in the sense that the new generation manned spacecraft which will eventually replace Shenzhou will fly on the CZ-7 for Earth orbit missions.   In the meantime the CZ-2F will continue to launch Shenzhou spacecraft until that spacecraft is retired.

Are there still plans to add the LOX/LH stage to the existing CZ-7?   This was part of the original planning for the vehicle.
I believe I heard it as deferred. Skyrocket marks those configs as so.

Offline PM3

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #525 on: 10/01/2019 10:47 pm »
Are there any known specs of those "Nebula" launchers by Chinese startup Deep Blue Aerospace? Do they have a website?

https://spacenews.com/new-chinese-commercial-rocket-firms-move-toward-maiden-launches/

The same article by Andrew Jones also mentions an imminent suborbital launch by Xingtu Exploration Technology Co. aka "Space Trek". Launcher is called XT-1:

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/tUNAnLuNHU7Z5yUtzvu0mw
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #526 on: 10/04/2019 05:13 am »
Another Chinese small launch vehicle company. Launch vehicle name is Gushenxing-1 (Ceres-1). First three stages are solid with a liquid fourth stage. First launch is planned for March 2020 with a main satellite and two smaller satellites. Payload mass is 80 kg.

Galactic Energy (Beijing Xinghe Dongli Space Technology)

https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/ODFz64ilf8dwxOYq8g0Hwg
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/QkV050Zbgd6R-8D3sO3ukw
https://spacenews.com/new-chinese-commercial-rocket-firms-move-toward-maiden-launches/

They are also developing a two stage lox/kero vehicle called Zhishenxing-1 (Pallas-1). First test flight is no latter than the end of 2022.

https://gbtimes.com/chinese-rocket-company-galactic-energy-sets-sights-on-pallas-1-medium-lift-launch-vehicle
« Last Edit: 10/04/2019 05:20 am by Steven Pietrobon »
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Offline schenkus

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #527 on: 10/04/2019 07:38 am »
Is there a special reason why after the successful launches of CZ-6 and CZ-7 from 2015 to 2017 there haven't been any launches of these two new rockets for almost 2 years ?

Is this just about "using up" old rockets or about the time lags involved in planning missions ?

(sorry if this isn't the correct thread for this question)

Offline Satori

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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #529 on: 10/16/2019 05:00 am »
From the article

"The research, started in 2017, has produced an initial blueprint for the rocket, which will be about 87 meters long and have a takeoff weight of about 2,200 tonnes.

It could carry payloads of more than 25 tonnes to the lunar transfer orbit and would have a new escape system to improve astronaut safety."

That does not sound like CZ-9, which had a lift off mass of 4137 t and could send 50 t to LTO. This could be the Chinese FH design. A dual launch could do a Lunar mission, sending the LM first to LLO or NRO, followed by the next generation crewed vehicle. The SpaceX FH liftoff mass is 1421 t and can send about 20.8 t to the Moon.
« Last Edit: 10/16/2019 05:04 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Liss

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #530 on: 10/18/2019 09:01 am »
Look at the source at http://www.guancha.cn/politics/2019_10_11_520874.shtml .
Obviously the CMSE office continued to push this 2018 design of their own and CALT agreed to proceed with it.
This message reflects my personal opinion based on open sources of information.

Online daedalus1

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #531 on: 10/18/2019 09:13 am »
From the article


That does not sound like CZ-9, which had a lift off mass of 4137 t and could send 50 t to LTO. This could be the Chinese FH design. A dual launch could do a Lunar mission, sending the LM first to LLO or NRO, followed by the next generation crewed vehicle. The SpaceX FH liftoff mass is 1421 t and can send about 20.8 t to the Moon.

I think you considerably over estimate the LTO capability of the FH.
Assuming 60 tonnes LEO (expendable) a low energy rocket as a rule of thumb will send about a quarter of LEO mass to LTO (with hydrogen upper stage it's about a third). So 15 tonnes maximum, and much less reusable.

Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #532 on: 10/18/2019 01:46 pm »
Look at the source at http://www.guancha.cn/politics/2019_10_11_520874.shtml .
Obviously the CMSE office continued to push this 2018 design of their own and CALT agreed to proceed with it.

I have just looked at some pretty detailed discussion on this in Chinese forums over the past few months.
It seems that people are thinking that the Chinese might be putting Long March 9 on the backburner and put up this rocket for cis-lunar operations instead. The good thing is that the engines are more or less already starting to fly right now (modified YF-100 for first stage/boosters, vacuum version of YF-100 for second stage, YF-75D LH2 engines from LM-5 2nd stage for the third stage) and it would still provide 25 tonnes to LTO capability.

More on that when I have time to review the discussions.
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Offline Galactic Penguin SST

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #533 on: 10/18/2019 01:58 pm »
From the article


That does not sound like CZ-9, which had a lift off mass of 4137 t and could send 50 t to LTO. This could be the Chinese FH design. A dual launch could do a Lunar mission, sending the LM first to LLO or NRO, followed by the next generation crewed vehicle. The SpaceX FH liftoff mass is 1421 t and can send about 20.8 t to the Moon.

I think you considerably over estimate the LTO capability of the FH.
Assuming 60 tonnes LEO (expendable) a low energy rocket as a rule of thumb will send about a quarter of LEO mass to LTO (with hydrogen upper stage it's about a third). So 15 tonnes maximum, and much less reusable.

The current plan seems to be aiming at around ~70 tonnes LEO for the 2 stages version and 25 tonnes to LTO for the 3 stages version.

1st stage: 3 x 5 meters diameter CBCs, each with 7 x YF-100K (modified YF-100) kerosene/LOX engines for a total of 21 at liftoff
2nd stage: 2 x YF-100M (vacuum-start version of YF-100)
3rd stage: 3 x YF-75D (LH2 engine currently used for LM-5 2nd stage)

There's also a plan for a 2-stage single core version (with the 2nd stage only using 1 YF-100M) as an alternative/replacement for the Long March 5, or even the still-under-development Long March 7A (= "CZ-7 734", basically LM-7 with the LM-3A series hydrogen upper stage for 7 tonnes to GTO).
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Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #534 on: 10/19/2019 02:42 am »
I think you considerably over estimate the LTO capability of the FH.
Assuming 60 tonnes LEO (expendable) a low energy rocket as a rule of thumb will send about a quarter of LEO mass to LTO (with hydrogen upper stage it's about a third). So 15 tonnes maximum, and much less reusable.

I use a model based on known performance of FH expendable. SpaceX give a payload to GTO (2.44 km/s) as 26.7 t and payload to Mars (3.6 km/s) as 16.8 t. So I believe my estimate for TLI (3.185 km/s) of 20.8 t is entirely reasonable. You can download my model from the link below.

https://www.spacex.com/falcon-heavy
http://www.sworld.com.au/steven/space/fh.zip

Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Offline Steven Pietrobon

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #535 on: 10/19/2019 02:47 am »
Data given from the article:

""5-meter diameter module overall technology and engineering application" project."

"the launch vehicle is about 87 meters long, the take-off weight is about 2,200 tons, the take-off thrust is close to 2,700 tons, and the LTO (Ben Moon orbit) carrying capacity is not less than 25 tons."

"100 tons of thrust tank bottom transmission structure design and manufacture"
« Last Edit: 10/19/2019 02:53 am by Steven Pietrobon »
Akin's Laws of Spacecraft Design #1:  Engineering is done with numbers.  Analysis without numbers is only an opinion.

Online daedalus1

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #536 on: 10/19/2019 06:26 am »
I think you considerably over estimate the LTO capability of the FH.
Assuming 60 tonnes LEO (expendable) a low energy rocket as a rule of thumb will send about a quarter of LEO mass to LTO (with hydrogen upper stage it's about a third). So 15 tonnes maximum, and much less reusable.

I use a model based on known performance of FH expendable. SpaceX give a payload to GTO (2.44 km/s) as 26.7 t and payload to Mars (3.6 km/s) as 16.8 t. So I believe my estimate for TLI (3.185 km/s) of 20.8 t is entirely reasonable. You can download my model from the link below.

https://www.spacex.com/falcon-heavy
http://www.sworld.com.au/steven/space/fh.zip

I am using real world actual missions.
For example Proton 22 tonnes to LEO, typically 5 to 6 tonnes to trans lunar injection.

Offline zzabur

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #537 on: 11/02/2019 05:15 am »
Here are some new photos of the new Falcon Heavy like supposedly manned rocket.


Offline TrevorMonty

Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #538 on: 11/03/2019 08:44 am »
With 7 engines they may try to make booster stage reuseable. Would give them equivalent of f9 in single stick version.


Offline zzabur

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Re: China to have new rockets
« Reply #539 on: 11/07/2019 06:10 am »
Here is a related official announcement with some details
http://www.cnsa.gov.cn/n6758823/n6758838/c6807844/content.html

----
A Google translation:

The new generation of manned rocket pre-research project successfully accepted

Release date: October 12, 2019 Source: Aerospace Science and Technology Group Font: [Big] [Middle] [Small]
On October 9, China Aerospace Science and Technology Group Co., Ltd. “The overall technology and engineering application of the new generation of manned rockets of 5 meters diameter module” successfully passed the acceptance review organized by the China Manned Space Engineering Office. The review experts agreed that the results of the pre-study project could be used in the development of a new generation of manned launch vehicle engineering in China.

According to the long-term mission planning of China's manned spaceflight project and the development concept of the new generation of launch vehicle system, the first hospital launched the pre-study of China's new generation of manned launch vehicles in 2017 under the overall support and traction of the project, after many rounds of demonstration and Development is now a critical step.


As an important means to support the construction of a space powerhouse, the project outlines the overall prototype of a new generation of manned rockets: the length of the arrow is about 87 meters, the take-off weight is about 2,200 tons, the take-off thrust is close to 2,700 tons, and the LTO (moon-moon orbit) carrying capacity is not lower than 25 tons. In the follow-up, the specific development plan of the rocket will be continuously updated, improved and refined under the arrangement of the overall project and the Aerospace Science and Technology Group.

The rocket will adopt new escape system design technology, lightweight and efficient structural design and advanced manufacturing technology, lightweight and high reliability thrust vector control technology, rocket longitudinal coupled vibration suppression technology, advanced test launch technology, rocket power system redundancy and flight control Construction technology, cold heading supercharging technology, low impact and high reliability ship and arrow separation technology, etc., among which large diameter and large temperature difference low temperature common bottom tank design and manufacturing technology, 100 tons of thrust tank bottom force transmission structure design and manufacture, large thrust Rocket engine electrostatic pressure vector control and other technologies are the first in the world.

The rocket will fully inherit the mature engine technology and high-reliability flight control technology of the new generation of launch vehicles such as the Long March 5 and the Long March 7. It will also simplify the escape mode and improve the safety of astronauts. The use of multiple engines in parallel, 1000-ton bundle load transfer and arrow structure design integration, and the use of a large number of new materials, new processes, the rocket carrying efficiency has been greatly improved.

 

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