Satellite signals intelligence in the 1960s

[Jim]

I would think with modern electronics there's no need for two separate COMINT and TELINT satellites and they can be folded into one system. Those 70s satellites predated microprocessor electronics, after all.

It wasn't electronics, it was pointing and location that drove separate spacecraft programs.   Telemetry transmitters are usually omnidirectional.  Comm signals like microwaves can be directional.


He also was referring to the two dishes on the one spacecraft.

[Skyrocket]

It *may* even explain why even 60 odd years later the two dishes on Orion seem to be one of roughly RHYOLITE size, and one of roughly CANYON size, see https://satelliteobservation.net/2017/09/24/a-radiotelescope-in-the-sky-the-usa-202-orion-satellite/ though there's no reason to believe one is now exclusively for COMINT and one for TELINT.

Length 1 is off.   The Titan IV fairing was 16.7 feet in diameter so it could hold a 15 foot diameter payload with rattle space.   A true octagon  with a 15' diagonal would have a side of 13.9' (4.2m). A true square with a 15' diagonal would have a side of 10.6' (3.2m).  The bus is closer to the true octagon than square.  Plus the bus in the image looks oblong, so there is some distortion.

The smaller dish antenna resembles somewhat the TDRS single access antenna in size relative to the bus - a large, steerable dish on the satellite that provides high-bandwidth, direct communication links. So it might be related to the additional relay function of the later ORION satellites.

[Jim]

First thing to note is that a 20ft dish, scaled down from the packaged size of the later ATS-6 variant, neatly explains how CANYON was squeezed into the rather narrow 5 ft diameter Agena shroud, in stark contrast to the very long nose needed for RHYOLITE's dish-described by an eyewitness as a "French umbrella".

I see closer to 30 ft as a simple umbrella.  And for VORTEX on Titan III, 70 ft or so.

[LittleBird]

... and because I don't actually expect to live long enough to see it declassified and am still curious (though I hope to be wrong about that)

Have patience, remember it wasn't very long ago that the initial 60s ELINT programs were declassified (well ok GRAB was 1998). The 70s will be gotten to eventually I'm sure, while also noting that declassifying anything isn't free and it does take time, money, and personnel. Then consider the interesting fact that CANYON was publicly acknowledged as far back as 1990 while POPPY wasn't until 2012 (why, who knows?)

No, CANYON has, in fact, *never* been publicly acknowledged under that name. The names (RUNWAY and RAINFALL) of the ground segments for it and RHYOLITE finally became declassified, iirc in  last 10 years or so, and the existence of GEO SIGINT has also been acknowledged, but the names CANYON and RHYOLITE themselves remain classified. We have discussed this several times in threads here.
 
As to when the name first *leaked*, as far as I know it was  1993, by Andronov, in a Russian military journal (translated here: https://spp.fas.org/military/program/sigint/androart.htm ) -without giving a source.  I have seen assertions/citations (iirc in a book or article by Richelson) that it was discussed as CANYON before then in western press or TV but have never substantiated them. When it was covered by the UK press in the 80s in context of Prime spy trial it was called ARGUS.



 

[Jim]

The smaller dish antenna resembles somewhat the TDRS single access antenna in size relative to the bus - a large, steerable dish on the satellite that provides high-bandwidth, direct communication links. So it might be related to the additional relay function of the later ORION satellites.

The aticle says ELINT and that is from the stolen papers

[LittleBird]

First thing to note is that a 20ft dish, scaled down from the packaged size of the later ATS-6 variant, neatly explains how CANYON was squeezed into the rather narrow 5 ft diameter Agena shroud, in stark contrast to the very long nose needed for RHYOLITE's dish-described by an eyewitness as a "French umbrella".

I see closer to 30 ft as a simple umbrella.   

I would also have thought this, but the 30ft antenna on ATS-6 was very tightly wound, see https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=40314.msg2608059#msg2608059 and these great Smithsonian pics.

Possibly the fact that RH started before CANYON motivated a more conservative design, albeit larger in diameter ?

[LittleBird]

I would think with modern electronics there's no need for two separate COMINT and TELINT satellites and they can be folded into one system. Those 70s satellites predated microprocessor electronics, after all.

It wasn't electronics, it was pointing and location that drove separate spacecraft programs.   Telemetry transmitters are usually omnidirectional.  Comm signals like microwaves can be directional.

Not to mention organisational rivalry, between Program A/NSA/Lockheed team and Program B/CIA/TRW/ESL team, with key players in latter being well known to be Wheelon and Perry among others.

Though it is interesting that the needs of the electronics were subtly different as well. The 7500 (CANYON and descendants) series was, at least by the end in the 2010s, encrypting its take for retransmission, according to docs at The Intercept. The 7600 series (RH et al) was, in contrast, real time [ibid].

It's also interesting that there is open source testimony, nowadays, on  how the ground segment, at least, of GEO SIGINT was helping to define the electronics state of the art. Intel's first _commercial_ microprocessor was the 4004 in 1971, but who knows what preceded it (the company started in 1968). You'll find this memoir https://steveblank.com/2009/04/13/story-behind-the-secret-history-part-iv-undisclosed-location-library-hours/ fascinating, I'm sure.

 Edit: Intel’s own account of genesis of the 4004 is here: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/history/virtual-vault/articles/the-intel-4004.html

Not saying it’s wrong, but perhaps there’s more to it than that.

Edit 2: also worth reading the few pages of Bill Perry’s memoir that feal with the 60s, ESL, EDL etc