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SpaceX Vehicles and Missions => SpaceX Missions Section => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 01:24 am

Title: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 01:24 am
LIVE LAUNCH DAY ATTEMPT 1 THREAD FOR SPACEX FALCON 9/DRAGON LAUNCH TO THE ISS.

Full coverage from 3:30 AM Eastern
T-0 (Instant Window) at 4:55 AM EASTERN

SPACEX WEBCAST (Thanks to SpaceX/Ben for the coding). THIS IS A STATIC IMAGE UNTIL THE WEBCAST BEGINS, AFTER WHICH IT WILL STREAM EMBEDDED.



NSF Resources:

LAUNCH DAY ARTICLE - by William Graham:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/


SpaceX Forum Section:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=45.0 - please use this for general questions, non updates.

SpaceX News Articles from 2006 (Including numerous exclusive Elon interviews):
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=21862.0

SpaceX News Articles (Recent):
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/spacex/

Recent COTS C2+ Specific articles:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/tag/Dragon/


--------------
L2 Members:

L2 SpaceX Section:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=tags&tags=SpaceX

L2 SpaceX Dragon C2/C3 Mission Special (NEW - Exclusively acquired pre-launch and Mission Coverage, Presentations, Graphics, Videos, Updates, NASA/Space industry member comments):
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?board=54.0

To Join L2: http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/l2/

----

This a LIVE UPDATE THREAD. All posts need to be as such. Other posts will be removed. We can't be any clearer, so don't complain when your "I've started drinking already" posts get removed.

GO SPACEX. GO FALCON 9. GO DRAGON.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 01:46 am
Just to be clear on the ground rules, again.

Can be posted for the interim until we get some live coverage: Pictures, from twitter (accredit) etc. Tweets/updates from NASA, SpaceX.

Not to be posted: "It's Beer O'Clock and I'm pulling an all nighter!" "Wooo, GO SpaceX" and "Has the webcast started yet??" ;D

It's going to be a REALLY busy thread, so you can imagine people will only want to read posts updating them.

I know I sound hard nosed over this, but we've always done it this way, with Shuttle etc. There's a load of other threads that can be used for other comments, even the above examples. Remember, it's me who gets shouted at if the thread is loose and people are skipping past nonsense to find updates! :)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 01:48 am
Here's a good interim example - from just now:

Elon Musk ‏@elonmusk
Next time Dragon sees the sun, it should be doing 17,000 mph over the Atlantic. ~8 hrs to liftoff

Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 01:49 am
Thanks to Jim Oberg:

ISS/Dragon Sightings -- predawn next few days
"First and best chance is Saturday after only one rev, with Dragon
passing about five minutes AFTER ISS.
 
BUT -- there also will be the Falcon-9 second stage, probably venting,
and at least two small flashing jettisoned solar array covers, and perhaps
other launch-associated debris.
 
If the Houston-area skies stay clear this could be AWESOME"

Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Orbiter on 05/19/2012 02:03 am
Currently sitting at 6 hrs 52 minutes from predicted T-0. SLC40's lights have been on for a while now, looks great!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/19/2012 02:41 am
LAUNCH DAY ARTICLE - by William Graham:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/ (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/)

Wow...is that article information packed!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Hoki on 05/19/2012 03:02 am
LAUNCH DAY ARTICLE - by William Graham:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/ (http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/)

Wow...is that article information packed!
Agree, greate artical!!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rdale on 05/19/2012 03:15 am
Weather looks fairly quiet in the area for the morning, with temps near 70. There is a concern for some thicker cumulus clouds but I think the official 30% is too high of a violation risk. Winds should be light out of the northwest so no crosswind RTLS worries either ;)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: simonbp on 05/19/2012 05:30 am
Thanks to Jim Oberg:

ISS/Dragon Sightings -- predawn next few days
"First and best chance is Saturday after only one rev, with Dragon
passing about five minutes AFTER ISS.
 
BUT -- there also will be the Falcon-9 second stage, probably venting,
and at least two small flashing jettisoned solar array covers, and perhaps
other launch-associated debris.
 
If the Houston-area skies stay clear this could be AWESOME"

For reference, a number of good sites (below) can be used for ISS tracking. For us in Arizona, the best pass is at 4:07 MST/PDT.

http://www.heavens-above.com
http://www.n2yo.com/
http://spaceweather.com/flybys/
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Orbiter on 05/19/2012 05:42 am
Looks like fueling operations are well underway. Now 3 hours, 11 minutes until predicted T-0.

Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rerickson on 05/19/2012 05:50 am
Twitter "ISS Updates" reports (6 min ago): L-3h15m Tanking Complete. All RP-1 now on-board. LOX into stable replenish. Waiting for confirmation.

Previously reported tanking progressing ahead of schedule with no technical issues being worked.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Hunts Villain on 05/19/2012 05:52 am
Stable replen not yet.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Orbiter on 05/19/2012 05:54 am
Just passed the 3 hour mark to the predicted T-0.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: spacetraveler on 05/19/2012 05:55 am
Twitter "ISS Updates" reports (6 min ago): L-3h15m Tanking Complete. All RP-1 now on-board. LOX into stable replenish. Waiting for confirmation.

Previously reported tanking progressing ahead of schedule with no technical issues being worked.

Should be noted, that twitter account is just posting items that were part of the estimated timeline released by SpaceX at those same times, not based on actual reports from the Cape.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Hunts Villain on 05/19/2012 06:36 am
Flight levels were reached around quarter past the hour.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: mtakala24 on 05/19/2012 07:07 am
SpaceX is also streaming live on Youtube, although I could not get the link to open just yet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB8GbQaBDxM
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:16 am
Morning ;)

NTV Coverage in 15 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: John44 on 05/19/2012 07:16 am
NASA TV HD / Ipad  is not available at the moment

NASA TV media channel HD

http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7332&Itemid=55
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: sojourner on 05/19/2012 07:19 am
SpaceX is front and center on CNN.com

http://www.cnn.com/
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 07:20 am
Since we now have a live youtube feed. We can apply some magic and get a prize...
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 07:26 am
Weather looks fairly quiet in the area for the morning, with temps near 70. There is a concern for some thicker cumulus clouds but I think the official 30% is too high of a violation risk. Winds should be light out of the northwest so no crosswind RTLS worries either ;)

Thanks for that update. As for the Cumulus clouds, the overly-vague launch commit criteria (NASA public side) states...
"Do Not Launch within ten nautical miles of cumulus clouds with tops that extend into freezing temperatures, unless height associated distance criteria can be met..."

So I hope we'll be in the clear this morning, pardon the pun.  :D
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:26 am
Here we go.

Remember the rules about this being a LAUNCH update thread.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Mapperuo on 05/19/2012 07:27 am
NASA about to start.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: collectSPACE on 05/19/2012 07:28 am
Not exactly a late stow, but a late-learned stow aboard the Dragon...

Not-so-secret souvenirs riding historic SpaceX capsule flight to space station
http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-051812b.html

The first U.S. commercial spacecraft to attempt to visit the International Space Station, SpaceX's Dragon, will launch filled with cargo — and something a bit extra — for the orbiting outpost.

The inaugural payload weighs approximately 1200 pounds (544 kilograms) and is mostly comprised of food for the station's crew, student experiments, and storage bags, but the capsule's compliment also includes a stash of space souvenirs commemorating the history-making mission.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:30 am
George Diller commentating as expected.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:31 am
CTS was 12:45am. No BIH.

1:05 and 1:15 for fueling. RP-1 the latter.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:32 am
Weather Brief in 23 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 07:33 am
impressive sight this morning
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:35 am
Nice amount of venting going on!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 07:35 am
looks like a strong cell off the coast
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:37 am
7:55am GMT for the weather brief, so we'll see what they make of it.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 07:37 am
From about an hour ago...no change to yesterday's forecast, but should be going to green/red on the rules.

looks like a strong cell off the coast
That appears to have weakened and is moving mostly away.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:38 am
Interview time.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: chad1011 on 05/19/2012 07:40 am
What is the VLC stream address?
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Geron on 05/19/2012 07:41 am
Does anyone know what is being actively vented from the rocket? What gas is being vented and why?
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:41 am
Launch animation being shown again.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: chad1011 on 05/19/2012 07:42 am
LOX from boil off
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:42 am
May 22 if all goes well:
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:43 am
EOM:
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:44 am
T-71 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 07:44 am
Latest weather screenshots
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:45 am
Wider view.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:46 am
More COTS happy talk.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 07:47 am
Christian Bale, erm Mike Horkachuk
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:48 am
Upmass:
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:49 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:49 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:50 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Wyvern on 05/19/2012 07:50 am
Why exactly do the guys loading the cargo need to wear those suits?
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:50 am
Hatch closeout.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:51 am
T-65 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:54 am
Weather brief is the next event. Few minutes away.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Dappa on 05/19/2012 07:54 am
@elonmusk

View of my mission control console at SpaceX HQ in California. Liftoff in 65 minutes. http://pic.twitter.com/lZHpFxqA
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 07:54 am
Quote
View of my mission control console at SpaceX HQ in California. Liftoff in 65 minutes

http://t.co/lZHpFxqA (http://t.co/lZHpFxqA)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 07:56 am
T-60 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 07:56 am
Why exactly do the guys loading the cargo need to wear those suits?
To prevent contaminating any cargo that might be sensitive to the various kinds of stuff that comes off people.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 07:57 am
Pre-weather breifing status still listing cumulus clouds as primary concerns, 30% chance of violation. Winds at 162' level 10kts per 45th Space wing.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 07:57 am
Pre-weather breifing status still listing cumulus clouds as primary concerns, 30% chance of violation. Winds at 162' level 10kts per 45th Space wing.
I saw 20%; currently green board.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:00 am
Oh well, we didn't get to hear the weather brief!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:01 am
gwynne shotwell being interviewed
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:01 am
Another interview.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 08:01 am
I saw 20%; currently green board.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:02 am
Processing video.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:03 am
Ms Shotwell's gone back to calling the vehicle an "it" (reference to the "she" comment during the presser).
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:04 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:05 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:06 am
I found a solution with the youtube feed.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:06 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:07 am
I found a solution with the youtube feed.

Very good! Can you PM Ron, as we can then do both NTV and SpaceX coverage.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:07 am
Brand new LCC
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:08 am
T-48 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:10 am
@NASAKennedy: Launch managers had a weather briefing at T-1 hour and there are no weather-related issues that would prevent liftoff at 4:55:26 a.m. EDT.

We were supposed to hear that on the loop, but there it is.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:13 am
Freedom Star feature.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:14 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:15 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:15 am
Almost ready to start
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:15 am
T-40 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:16 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:16 am
Ground loop.

Terminal Count polling.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:17 am
What to expect in the last 5 minutes before launch...

- 0:05:30 Dragon terminal count auto starts
- 0:02:30 SpaceX Launch Director verifies go for launch
- 0:02:00 Range Control Officer (USAF) verifies range is go for launch
- 0:01:00 Command flight computer state to startup, turn on pad deck and Niagara Water
- 0:00:40 Pressurize propellant tanks
- 0:00:03 Engine controller commands engine ignition sequence to start
0:00:00 Falcon 9 Launch
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:18 am
Good work Chris-A! I'll keep with NTV.

Roadblocks established - confirmed.

Additional weather brief not required.

Downrange tracking networks ready to go.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:18 am
Range currently green.

Winds (ground and aloft) within limits.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:18 am
Flight software - no issues.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 08:19 am
What to expect in the last 5 minutes before launch...
That's from the press kit, right?
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:19 am
Kevin Brogan on the SpaceX feed. He's been there for them all!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:20 am
T-35 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:21 am
Falcon 9 #4  is at Hangar AO(?), Cape and Falcon 9 #5 is at SpaceX HQ.
I'm having trouble keeping up
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:21 am
What to expect in the last 5 minutes before launch...
That's from the press kit, right?


Yes, pretty general but useful to our more casual enthusiasts. It's on page 11 if you want to know more.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:21 am
@elonmusk
Whatever happens today, we could not have done it without @NASA, but errors are ours alone and me most of all.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 08:22 am
What to expect in the last 5 minutes before launch...
That's from the press kit, right?


Yes, pretty general but useful to our more casual enthusiasts. It's on page 11 if you want to know more.
I'm familiar with it, but we like to cite our sources.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Halidon on 05/19/2012 08:22 am
Balloon data says weather is go
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:24 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:24 am
T-32 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:25 am
SpaceX HQ Control Room
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:26 am
T-30 mins.

SpaceX and NASA Webcasts are polar opposite on the style :D
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:28 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:29 am
Quote
T-33:00 : Topping off fuel for the Falcon 9 vehicle. The 45th Space Wing is monitoring the Eastern Range and weather.

https://twitter.com/#!/45thSpaceWing
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Halidon on 05/19/2012 08:29 am
Quote
@elonmusk
KBro, the SpaceX dude with the mustache on the webcast looks just like Ron Burgundy. Stay classy :) #DragonLaunch
Elon on Twitter
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:29 am
No chatter on the loop, if they still have that running on NTV. No chatter is good.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:30 am
View from MCC-X
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:30 am
T-25 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/19/2012 08:30 am
View from MCC-X

The first two are LCC. ;)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:30 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:31 am
George Diller confirms no issues being worked. Weather is green.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:32 am
Quote
Weather has been upgraded to 80 percent chance of acceptable conditions at T-0, and the launch team is not working any technical issues.

https://twitter.com/#!/NASAKennedy (https://twitter.com/#!/NASAKennedy)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:32 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:32 am
good world view map
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/19/2012 08:34 am
Elon: "KBro, the SpaceX dude with the mustache on the webcast looks just like Ron Burgundy. Stay classy :)"
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:35 am
T-21 mins. Site starting to get busy (we can handle over double this request rate, however).
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:35 am
Quote
T - 22:00 : Current weather commit criteria are all "go" for launch.

https://twitter.com/#!/45thSpaceWing (https://twitter.com/#!/45thSpaceWing)

Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:35 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:36 am
Flashback to Shuttle as they head to MCC-H for an update.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:36 am
FD Emily Nelson:
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:36 am
MCC-H Polling was go.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:37 am
The webcast is nice.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: e of pi on 05/19/2012 08:37 am
No fresh fruit for Don Petit. :(
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:39 am
Quote
The SpaceX launch team just completed their poll. They are GO for launch

https://twitter.com/#!/NASA_Johnson (https://twitter.com/#!/NASA_Johnson)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:40 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:41 am
T-15 minutes.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rahkashi on 05/19/2012 08:41 am
2 minutes to final poll
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:42 am
Quote
Initiated master countdown script "Auto Sequence: Yoda"

https://twitter.com/#!/elonmusk (https://twitter.com/#!/elonmusk)

polling
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:42 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Halidon on 05/19/2012 08:43 am
Polling under way
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:43 am
Polling:

All Ready/GO.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:43 am
Poll complete, all consoles reporting GO for terminal count.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:43 am
polling underway, clear to proceed to terminal count
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rahkashi on 05/19/2012 08:44 am
"Go" sounds so much better than "Ready"

T-12:00
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:44 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:44 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Halidon on 05/19/2012 08:44 am
Cheering at SpaceX HQ
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:45 am
T-11 mins.

ISS flying over right now.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: AJA on 05/19/2012 08:45 am
polling underway, clear to proceed to terminal count

<Facepalming> A whole load of acronyms to decipher. </Facepalming>

Massive hoot in control centre just now.. wonder why..
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:45 am
t minus 10 minutes, initiating auto sequence start
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:45 am
Hold instructions being read out (as per normal).
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:46 am
Onboard camera
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:46 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: dsmillman on 05/19/2012 08:47 am
Just saw ISS  SE of NYC.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:47 am
Dragon to Internal Power.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:48 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: robertross on 05/19/2012 08:48 am
T-11 mins.

ISS flying over right now.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:48 am
T-7 mins
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:49 am
Key moment for the flight software final alignment coming up.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:49 am
Ascent timeline, as per press kit.

Hour/Min/Sec Events
0:01:24 Max Q
0:03:00 1st stage engine shutdown/Main Engine Cut Off (MECO)
0:03:05 1st and 2nd stages separate
0:03:12 Stage 2 engine starts
0:03:52 Dragon nose cone jettisoned
0:09:14 2nd stage engine cut off (SECO)
0:09:49 Dragon separates from 2nd stage
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:49 am
camera fogged up all of a sudden
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimO on 05/19/2012 08:50 am
T-11 mins.

ISS flying over right now.

If that's the case, I'm SWAGging Dragon will wind up in orbit about 16 minutes behind the ISS -- NOT the five minutes predicted in NASA's provided sighting info. First rev observers [ME, among others, I hope] need to wait longer to see it. Hmmm.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:50 am
Passed. Vehicle in self alignment.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:50 am
T-5 mins. Very smooth count so far.

Stage 2 TVC bleed.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:51 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:51 am
About 2 minutes behind here.

SSME camera view angle here?  ;D
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:51 am
both stages switching to internal power
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:52 am
T-4 mins.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:52 am
T-4 minutes. My adrenaline turbopump auto-start sequence has begun.  ;)
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:52 am
FTS on internal power.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:52 am
LOX Topping terminate.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:52 am
Lox vents closing now.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: AJA on 05/19/2012 08:53 am
LOX loading ending nominally
FTS armed
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:53 am
LD is GO for launch.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:53 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:53 am
T-120 seconds. Range is GREEN.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:53 am
Range GREEN at T-2min
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:54 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:54 am
Flight computer start up.

T-60 seconds.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:55 am
Tanks Press.

T-30 seconds.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:55 am
Abort!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:55 am
ABORT!!!
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
CUTOFF and SCRUB
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rahkashi on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
ABORT
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: docmordrid on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
Abort
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: simonbp on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
God damn it.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
Flight computer did not start up.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 08:56 am
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 08:57 am
Flight computer did not start up.
That may be part of the post-cutoff/abort sequence.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 08:57 am
Safing the vehicle.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: nblackwell on 05/19/2012 08:58 am
Flight computer did not start up.
That may be part of the post-cutoff/abort sequence.


Correct, they were just verifying that after abort the computer was correctly not still in startup.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chandonn on 05/19/2012 08:58 am
Are they still going to try and launch or is that it?

"Instantaneous launch window" means that's it for tonight
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Norm38 on 05/19/2012 08:58 am
Damn!  If some diagnostic was off by 0.1%...  They really need to get those limits properly widened out, this is getting annoying.

Well, back to bed.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 08:59 am
Keep the NONSENSE to a minimum.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 08:59 am
Damn!  If some diagnostic was off by 0.1% I'm going to be frakked.  They really need to get those limits properly widened out, this is getting annoying.
Part of the learning curve.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 05/19/2012 08:59 am
What's the launch time on May 22?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 08:59 am
Report on the net of abort due to Engine 5 chamber pressure high.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Fantastic coverage, NSF!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: RocketEconomist327 on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Engine Pressure 5 was high :(
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Safing progressing without issue.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimOman on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Reporting abort due to Engine #5 chamber press high reading.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: penguin44 on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Engine 5 had high chamber pressure
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: grakenverb on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Oh well, looks like we will all be back here VERY early on Tuesday! 
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: AJA on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
So any word / prior info on when they'll have a debriefing? And will it be webcast on SpaceX's website / covered on NASATV?

Engine 5 chamber pressure high (Prelim diagnosis)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: FinalFrontier on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Ugh. Chamber pressure was the reason for the scrub.


Fantastic coverage Chris.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: robertross on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
Just a (great) note for Chris: my HD feed locked up, but the embedded feed on page 1 worked like a charm.

THANK YOU!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 05/19/2012 09:00 am
What's the launch time on May 22?

07:44:34 UTC (3:44:34 am EDT)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 09:01 am
This is not that big of a deal guys, better to abort today than have a bad day.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/19/2012 09:01 am
Great coverage Chris
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
This is not that big of a deal guys, better to abort today than have a bad day.
Yes, there's a party thread for venting any disappointment.
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28920.0
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
Engine 5 is center engine?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: input~2 on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
What's the launch time on May 22?
ALTERNATE 220744Z MAY 
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: nblackwell on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
Engine 5 is center engine?
Correct
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
One second window.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
Strongback to be raised.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MadameConcorde on 05/19/2012 09:02 am
Thank you for the live feed on page 1.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 09:03 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tBPoX_SP3I&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: marshallsplace on 05/19/2012 09:04 am
Well that was exciting :) Thanks NSF for the great coverage as usual!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: simonbp on 05/19/2012 09:04 am
Ugh. Chamber pressure was the reason for the scrub.

Hope that doesn't mean an engine change. If so, May might be right out...

Quote
Fantastic coverage Chris.

Ditto.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 09:04 am
Strongback to be raised.
In progress, almost done.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: seawolfe on 05/19/2012 09:04 am
Disappointing, but good safety measures.  Better a safe abort on the pad than a spectacular failure.... a big Ka-boom type of failure.  Now they can turn it around and try again.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/19/2012 09:04 am
Gwynne said 50/50 chance of launch. Launch team sounded smooth…
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/19/2012 09:05 am
The launch control team sounds very professional. At Abort they just went thru the numbers. Any emotion was suppressed under procedure.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JBF on 05/19/2012 09:05 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jason1701 on 05/19/2012 09:06 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.

Likely an overly-tight limit.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chandonn on 05/19/2012 09:06 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.

Based on the two previous launches, I predict it's just an overly-conservative limit that will be relaxed in the future...


Tweet from Musk.

Launch aborted: slightly high combustion chamber pressure on engine 5. Will adjust limits for countdown in a few days.


Ah, new(er) vehicle: learning curve!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/19/2012 09:07 am
Engine 5 is center engine?
Correct
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: sitharus on 05/19/2012 09:07 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.

Likely an overly-tight limit.

Elon seems to agree: Launch aborted: slightly high combustion chamber pressure on engine 5. Will adjust limits for countdown in a few days.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/203773618222678016
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: spacetraveler on 05/19/2012 09:07 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.

Likely an overly-tight limit.

Tweet from Musk.

Launch aborted: slightly high combustion chamber pressure on engine 5. Will adjust limits for countdown in a few days.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:08 am
They did so well to have such a smooth count. This situation is 100 times better than failing on the way uphill.

We'll see what additional info we can get in L2 and we'll summarize any important elements.

A little bit disgusted by a few comments at scrub, but three people on a site getting hit 160 times a second ain't too bad. Never quote and respond, we moderate and get rid of such stupidity (takes longer to remove the response too).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Hungry4info3 on 05/19/2012 09:08 am
Great coverage. Looking forward to the next attempt.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rahkashi on 05/19/2012 09:08 am
Sometime today or later? I thought the next window was Tuesday at 3:44 am?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Kabloona on 05/19/2012 09:09 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.

Likely an overly-tight limit.

Wow. Record time for abort analysis.

Tweet from Musk.

Launch aborted: slightly high combustion chamber pressure on engine 5. Will adjust limits for countdown in a few days.

Wow. Record time for that failure analysis. Like he was almost expecting it...
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: AJA on 05/19/2012 09:09 am
The launch control team sounds very professional. At Abort they just went thru the numbers. Any emotion was suppressed under procedure.

That was the SpaceX loop, on NASATV. The SpaceX feed immediately cut in with commentary after 15 seconds. And now it's offline.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Alpha Control on 05/19/2012 09:09 am
Sometime today or later? I thought the next window was Tuesday at 3:44 am?

Tuesday May 22 at 3:44am is the next launch attempt date & time.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: grakenverb on 05/19/2012 09:10 am
Thanks for the great coverage Chris! 
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: FinalFrontier on 05/19/2012 09:11 am
Have to agree with Chris.

As I pointed out on the other thread, what we can take away from this is that we have a very good vehicle, and a very good team here. All the safety systems worked as expected and the vehicle shut itself down.


I am really pleased by what I saw this morning. If a slightly tight chamber pressure limit is the only issue with this vehicle, that's a good problem to have in my mind :)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 09:11 am
Wow. Record time for that failure analysis. Like he was almost expecting it...
That's standard -- vehicle safing is highest priority before concentrating on that on the net.  (Remember the same for Shuttle early on.)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/19/2012 09:11 am
Securing pad inspecting for any fires…
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/19/2012 09:11 am
I remember watching the launches of Mercury and Gemini. Almost every launch attempt was aborted to come back again another day and try again. SpaceX is having it's growing pains but to date none of the aborts appear to be for causes as serious as those early days in the 1960's. Assuming the preliminary analysis holds and Range agrees, we'll all be back here about an hour earlier next Tuesday to do this again. :)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/19/2012 09:11 am
Wonderful coverage! Thanks. Back to sleep. If I can get my heart-rate down.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: mfoster on 05/19/2012 09:13 am
thanks for the coverage great job

They did so well to have such a smooth count. This situation is 100 times better than failing on the way uphill.

We'll see what additional info we can get in L2 and we'll summarize any important elements.

A little bit disgusted by a few comments at scrub, but three people on a site getting hit 160 times a second ain't too bad. Never quote and respond, we moderate and get rid of such stupidity (takes longer to remove the response too).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: pippin on 05/19/2012 09:13 am
I really wonder why they can't set these limits straight during test firings. I mean, isn't this what you usually do on the test stand and it's not like they were not testing things.

A bit confusing to me, I mean, you don't WANT these limits to get into your way if in reality things are still OK.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chandonn on 05/19/2012 09:13 am
The big question is was a a real issue or a sensor fault.

Likely an overly-tight limit.

Wow. Record time for abort analysis.

Tweet from Musk.

Launch aborted: slightly high combustion chamber pressure on engine 5. Will adjust limits for countdown in a few days.

Wow. Record time for that failure analysis. Like he was almost expecting it...


"I" was expecting it too!  ;)



Thanks for the great coverage Chris! 

Seconded!  Great as always!  Like watching a shuttle launch.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: seawolfe on 05/19/2012 09:14 am
Post Scrub briefing coming at 6:30!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Wyvern on 05/19/2012 09:14 am
Awesome coverage Chris, I really think this is one of the best websites/forums out there.  Not only for Spaceflight but one of the best period.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Alpha Control on 05/19/2012 09:14 am
NASA TV announced that a post-scrub briefing will occur at 6:30am this morning.
Title: Re: LIVE: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Garrett on 05/19/2012 09:15 am
No fresh fruit for Don Petit. :(

That was my question. They mentioned my name and all. Quite chuffed!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/19/2012 09:15 am
Pad secure, no fires...
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:16 am
NTV coverage ends. L2 suggests this is not a major issue and thus looks good for May 22 (the latter is my assumption).

Post scrub presser at 6:30am Eastern.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Alpha Control on 05/19/2012 09:16 am
NASA TV terminating their launch coverage at this time, until the post-scrub briefing.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/19/2012 09:16 am
I remember watching the launches of Mercury and Gemini. Almost every launch attempt was aborted to come back again another day and try again. SpaceX is having it's growing pains but to date none of the aborts appear to be for causes as serious as those early days in the 1960's. Assuming the preliminary analysis holds and Range agrees, we'll all be back here about an hour earlier next Tuesday to do this again. :)
Me too Chuck, I felt like a kid again! : )
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: seawolfe on 05/19/2012 09:16 am
Livestream still has video.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/19/2012 09:17 am
I really wonder why they can't set these limits straight during test firings. I mean, isn't this what you usually do on the test stand and it's not like they were not testing things.

A bit confusing to me, I mean, you don't WANT these limits to get into your way if in reality things are still OK.

It takes more than testing; it takes flying before all these potential anomalies can be identified and nailed down. It just takes time. I've been watching launches for many years, and trust me; for a new vehicle, Falcon 9 is doing spectacularly well.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 09:17 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3YYyUauF0U&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:18 am
Awesome coverage Chris, I really think this is one of the best websites/forums out there.  Not only for Spaceflight but one of the best period.

Thanks for that, and for the other comments. Means a lot :)

Thanks also for everyone's patience. I do have a couple of mod running amok on these live threads to keep it clean and on track. It's never personal if you lose a post, it's all about housekeeping.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: FinalFrontier on 05/19/2012 09:21 am
I really wonder why they can't set these limits straight during test firings. I mean, isn't this what you usually do on the test stand and it's not like they were not testing things.

A bit confusing to me, I mean, you don't WANT these limits to get into your way if in reality things are still OK.


You actually do. Its better than having a failure that much I can assure you of.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ChrisC on 05/19/2012 09:22 am
Wonderful coverage! Thanks. Back to sleep. If I can get my heart-rate down.

Copy THAT ...

Now that both feeds (NASA and SpaceX) have stopped,we're back to this being the only place we can monitor progress!

Chris B., I'd love to hear about what the traffic peaks looked like.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/19/2012 09:23 am
Back to bed for an hour before getting up again to go to work.
Thanks for the awesome coverage Chris.
The embedded feed was spectacular!
I hope you make that a standard feature.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Kabloona on 05/19/2012 09:25 am
I really wonder why they can't set these limits straight during test firings. I mean, isn't this what you usually do on the test stand and it's not like they were not testing things.

A bit confusing to me, I mean, you don't WANT these limits to get into your way if in reality things are still OK.


You actually do. Its better than having a failure that much I can assure you of.

False negative (abort a good vehicle) much preferable to false positive (fail to abort a bad vehicle).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: bish48 on 05/19/2012 09:25 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/19/2012 09:26 am
Live to fly another day so all is well!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:27 am
Live to fly another day so all is well!

Quoted for truth :D

This thread will continue through to the second attempt - and that will be a new thread like this one around the same time ahead of launch.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: spacetraveler on 05/19/2012 09:29 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?



Extra propellant margin needed on orbit for all the demo maneuvers.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rtphokie on 05/19/2012 09:29 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?



My understanding is that the vehicle is capable of a much wider window but for this demo flight, it was more desirable for propellant to be saved for achieving the goals of the mission on orbit rather than getting back into plane due to a launch delay.

Basically they only want to use enough gas to get there and not overcoming detours.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 09:29 am
Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?
Vehicle doesn't have the performance margin Shuttle did.

(Shuttle is a natural to think of, but more the exception than the rule.)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: krytek on 05/19/2012 09:32 am
This is actually my first time ever watching a live launch (attempt :) )
haven't been this excited for years. THANK YOU CHRIS!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Galactic Penguin SST on 05/19/2012 09:33 am
Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?
Vehicle doesn't have the performance margin Shuttle did.

(Shuttle is a natural to think of, but more the exception than the rule.)


IIRC, Soyuz/Progress/ATV/HTV all have 1 second launch windows (and so will Cygnus).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:34 am
This is actually my first time ever watching a live launch (attempt :) )
haven't been this excited for years. THANK YOU CHRIS!

When you get time, head to one of Discovery, Atlantis and Endeavour sections and hit a LIVE Launch and FD1 thread. The tension for those events....it was incredible! (Crewed launch, big moody vehicle :D)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:39 am
This was fast - and timely:

(link: http://www.commercialspaceflight.org/?p=2413)


May 19 Launch Aborted; SpaceX Launch Sequence Works as Designed

Washington D.C. - The May 19 launch of Falcon 9 has been aborted this morning, however the SpaceX launch sequence worked as designed. The Falcon 9 computer examined all the data from the rocket at ignition, and when one engine returned data indicating it was out of line with expectations, the computer automatically aborted the launch.

CSF President Michael Lopez-Alegria said, "I have watched and participated in more scrubs of the shuttle than I would have liked, but it's just part of the launch business. I was extremely impressed with professionalism displayed by the SpaceX launch team in the moments after the scrub to safe the vehicle.  We will have to wait for the team to perform the technical analysis of what caused the apparent high pressure in one of the engine's combustion chambers and for SpaceX and NASA to decide when the next attempt will occur. This is not the outcome we were hoping for, but far better to detect and react to the problem while still in the pad than to have to deal with it in flight."

About the Commercial Spaceflight Federation

The mission of the Commercial Spaceflight Federation (CSF) is to promote the development of commercial human spaceflight, pursue ever-higher levels of safety, and share best practices and expertise throughout the industry. The Commercial Spaceflight Federation’s member companies, which include commercial spaceflight developers, operators, spaceports, suppliers, and service providers, are creating thousands of high-tech jobs nationwide, working to preserve American leadership in aerospace through technology innovation, and inspiring young people to pursue careers in science and engineering. For more information please visit www.commercialspaceflight.org or contact Executive Director Alex Saltman at [email protected] or at 202.349.1121.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: pippin on 05/19/2012 09:43 am
It takes more than testing; it takes flying before all these potential anomalies can be identified and nailed down. It just takes time. I've been watching launches for many years, and trust me; for a new vehicle, Falcon 9 is doing spectacularly well.

Well, they didn't fly THIS time and yet still after 30 minutes they are already confident that all they need to do is change the limit.

So either they KNEW the limit was overly conservative - then why did they set it as they did - or they feel they don't have enough confidence in their criteria yet and need more testing so they play it safe and then look at other data, too, to be sure?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:46 am
45 mins to the post scrub presser on NTV. I'll cover it.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimO on 05/19/2012 09:54 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?

The shuttle had the ability to 'side-slip' during ascent to move its target orbital path 'over' to where the target path had wandered. This cost some ascent performance, but was able to accommodate several minutes worth of earth rotation moving the launch site into, and then out of, the target orbital plane.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:58 am
Realinged William Graham's amazing 4,000 word overview article, post scrub:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/

Another rev after the post scrub presser.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 10:00 am
Looks like the satellite is back at KSC with a live feed...briefing scheduled for bottom of the hour.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: douglas100 on 05/19/2012 10:01 am
Also want to add to praise of Chris and the coverage. I especially liked the HD closeups of the vehicle. And then there was that moment, just after the engines had fired up and the vehicle hadn't moved, even before you could frame the words, that you knew it was going to cut off.

Exciting stuff. On to the next attempt!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:01 am
Wow. #DragonLaunch is trending top on UK Twitter, and #SpaceX is fourth, mixed it with football (soccer) hashtags. That's incredible.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: John44 on 05/19/2012 10:02 am
SpaceXFalcon 9 Dragon Launch Abort - May 19
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7584
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rickl on 05/19/2012 10:05 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?

The shuttle had the ability to 'side-slip' during ascent to move its target orbital path 'over' to where the target path had wandered. This cost some ascent performance, but was able to accommodate several minutes worth of earth rotation moving the launch site into, and then out of, the target orbital plane.



I've read that on this flight, it's also because they need to conserve Dragon's propellant for all the qualification maneuvering.  Normal cargo flights should have more leeway with the launch window.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 10:10 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?

The shuttle had the ability to 'side-slip' during ascent to move its target orbital path 'over' to where the target path had wandered. This cost some ascent performance, but was able to accommodate several minutes worth of earth rotation moving the launch site into, and then out of, the target orbital plane.



I've read that on this flight, it's also because they need to conserve Dragon's propellant for all the qualification maneuvering.  Normal cargo flights should have more leeway with the launch window.
True, but it would probably take longer than a few minutes to recycle any of these vehicles after a late cutoff.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: manboy on 05/19/2012 10:12 am
Ditto on the praise for NSF Chris.

Interesting that the window was just 1 second, why so small compared to shuttle launches?

The shuttle had the ability to 'side-slip' during ascent to move its target orbital path 'over' to where the target path had wandered. This cost some ascent performance, but was able to accommodate several minutes worth of earth rotation moving the launch site into, and then out of, the target orbital plane.



I've read that on this flight, it's also because they need to conserve Dragon's propellant for all the qualification maneuvering.  Normal cargo flights should have more leeway with the launch window.
If I remember correctly future launches will still have the near instantaneous launch window but they would have daily launch opportunities (if the range is clear).


We should take this to the discussion topic

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28486.375
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: malu5531 on 05/19/2012 10:15 am
The shuttle had the ability to 'side-slip' during ascent to move its target orbital path 'over' to where the target path had wandered. This cost some ascent performance, but was able to accommodate several minutes worth of earth rotation moving the launch site into, and then out of, the target orbital plane.

Falcon 9 have this ability as well, as I understand. In the prelaunch briefing and before launch attempt today several people from SpaceX and NASA talked about a longer launch window as a possibility, but for this particular mission they need to conserve as much fuel as they can.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: manboy on 05/19/2012 10:16 am
The sun is starting to rise at KSC
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:16 am
SpaceX Statement:
Today, SpaceX aborted the launch of the Falcon 9 rocket and Dragon spacecraft. Due to the instantaneous launch window, we are not able to recycle and re-attempt the launch today.

Early data indicates that the flight computer detected slightly high combustion chamber pressure on engine 5, which prompted the computer to abort the countdown. We are reviewing the data.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Nahavandi on 05/19/2012 10:17 am
Fingers crossed that there will be no technical difficulties on Tuesday.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 10:18 am
http://mobile.twitter.com/NASAKennedy/status/203788622418284545

Quote
#DragonLaunch briefing participants will be NASA Commercial Crew & Cargo Program Manager Alan Lindenmoyer & SpaceX Pres Gwynne Shotwell.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:21 am
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: John44 on 05/19/2012 10:22 am
SpaceXFalcon 9 Dragon Launch Abort - May 19
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7584


I restart the apache server everything works again
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:25 am
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 10:28 am
Discussion thread for soliloquies:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28486.0
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:35 am
Presser starting.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:36 am
T-0.5 seconds abort. Software abort for chamber pressure on engine 5.

Detanking. Techs to the engine by noon today. Statement will be released on root cause.

Will try again on 22nd or 23rd (NASA approved, but don't yet have the range).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:37 am
Station crew prepared for 22nd or 23rd. Good phasing period. Ready to support when SpaceX is ready to go.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 10:38 am
Ms. Shotwell saying this doesn't look like a sensor issue; also said earlier that the engine was trending high and tripped the limit at T-0.5 seconds.  Engine 5 was "rock solid" during the hot fire.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 10:39 am
#5 was trending upwards, out-of-family with experience on the test stand.

cheers, Maritn
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 10:39 am
"We can not blame the software guys for this one".

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:41 am
Questions already.

Engine 5 was trending high from the start, but hit the abort limit at 0.5 seconds. Compared to static fire, was out of family. Static fire it was rock solid.

Does not look like a sensor failure. Never seen it before on the pad.

Need all nine engines for lift off. Two engines can fail later for nominal mission.

Not a software issue.

PC Pressure on Engine 5 (high pressure) was the abort on the first flight, but they had a window that time.

Ms Shotwell distancing herself from Elon's tweet. Need to look at the engine.

This is not a failure, this is aborted with purpose, it would have been a failure if we lifted off with this issue.

Engine change would be a couple of days. May swap engine 5 from the other F9 at Cape. If required.

Racing through this!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 10:43 am
Ms Shotwell distancing herself from Elon's tweet. Need to look at the engine.
She said that was based on initial quick look.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 10:46 am
High chamber pressure likely due to low fuel flow. Valve [edit:pre-valve] reported fully open, probably borescope engine to investigate.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:47 am
Next T-0s:

03:44 - 22nd.
About 03:22 - 23rd.

Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.

Visual inspection of the chamber, borescope the pump.

Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

Traj of the ISS has allowed the possible May 24th opportunity.

Should be able to roll back to the hanger and back out by the 22nd if required.

And that's over.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: manboy on 05/19/2012 10:47 am
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 10:48 am
Launch on 22nd would be 3:44.

23rd would be 3:22.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 10:51 am
Could roll back and still be able to roll out again for 22nd window, but I don't think she committed re whether that could also include an engine change.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Paul Howard on 05/19/2012 10:52 am
Next T-0s:

03:44 - 22nd.
About 03:22 - 23rd.

Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.

Visual inspection of the chamber, borescope the pump.

Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

Traj of the ISS has allowed the possible May 24th opportunity.

Should be able to roll back to the hanger and back out by the 22nd if required.

And that's over.

Good notes, thanks for covering that and the launch attempt!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 10:53 am
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: sanman on 05/19/2012 10:54 am
The worst case is that they swap an engine, right? I assume that's if they find something serious wrong, or if they can't quite find out exactly what went wrong?

Are these spare engines pre-tested to the same extent as the ones that were already onboard?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 10:57 am
The worst case is that they swap an engine, right? I assume that's if they find something serious wrong, or if they can't quite find out exactly what went wrong?

Are these spare engines pre-tested to the same extent as the ones that were already onboard?

You'd have to assume they're fully tested, given that they were given the green light to be assembled onto F9 #004.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: John44 on 05/19/2012 10:57 am
   SpaceX/Falcon 9 Dragon Post-Scrub News Conference
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7585
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rickl on 05/19/2012 10:59 am
I seem to remember reading that they had to change the Atlas sustainer engine on the pad for MA-6.

Should be a lot easier for SpaceX to do it in the hangar, if necessary.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Thunderbird5 on 05/19/2012 11:00 am
Next T-0s:

03:44 - 22nd.
About 03:22 - 23rd.

Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.

Visual inspection of the chamber, borescope the pump.

Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

Traj of the ISS has allowed the possible May 24th opportunity.

Should be able to roll back to the hanger and back out by the 22nd if required.

And that's over.

Also noted that thresholds were lower for Flight 1.

Clearly they have been tweaking/relaxing thresholds in any case from previous data.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: sanman on 05/19/2012 11:02 am
So a borescope is similar to an endoscope used by a doctor to check your insides?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borescope

So this is a non-destructive means of examination, which will enable them to look at the feed channels for the chamber of Engine 5?

"trending" for "low fuel" could possibly point to a leak in the fuel feed line, perhaps?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 11:08 am
Latest update of William Graham's article for the scrub info:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/spacex-falcon-9-send-dragon-to-iss/

Going to have a break, so everyone please behave themselves ;)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 11:10 am
So a borescope is similar to an endoscope used by a doctor to check your insides?

Yep!

Here's a Shuttle article I wrote when the fleet had their inners checked! :)

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2009/11/sts-129-borescope-inspections-completed-aggressive-instrumentation-plan/
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/19/2012 11:16 am
I seem to remember reading that they had to change the Atlas sustainer engine on the pad for MA-6.

Should be a lot easier for SpaceX to do it in the hangar, if necessary.

Once integrated, has spaceX ever swapped a falcon 9 engine?

I wonder if such a swap would require a new hot fire. I would assume it is a component on the engine that needs to swapped, tweaked.

Fingers crossed they get off the pad before the Beta angle cause along delay.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Mapperuo on 05/19/2012 11:18 am
"trending" for "low fuel" could possibly point to a leak in the fuel feed line, perhaps?

With all the cameras they must have, Would a fuel leak not be visible and so be known at the time of the post briefing?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 11:26 am
Once integrated, has spaceX ever swapped a falcon 9 engine?

I once read a *rumor* on another site that they did do it once before. Take that with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: krytek on 05/19/2012 11:33 am
is it possible they will choose to perform another static fire to confirm they've fixed the issue?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 11:35 am
You mean like the previous static fire showed the engine #5's fine?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rickl on 05/19/2012 11:42 am
Once integrated, has spaceX ever swapped a falcon 9 engine?

I once read a *rumor* on another site that they did do it once before. Take that with a grain of salt.

Given the company's overall philosophy, I would assume that they have factored that in as a possibility and the vehicle and engines are designed to make that procedure fairly easy.

(Yes, I'm aware of the problem of ass-u-me-ing.)   ;)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 11:47 am
They did so well to have such a smooth count. This situation is 100 times better than failing on the way uphill.

There is one minor upside to tonight's scrub - they've had the experience of another full run-through of the countdown, all the way to T-0.5s including pressure of "this is not a drill".

Better than if they'd had to scrub very early in the cycle.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 12:38 pm
45th Weather Squadron issued a forecast for T-0 time on Tuesday after today's attempt:
http://www.patrick.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-070716-028.pdf

Still forecasting a 40% chance of weather violation.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: spectre9 on 05/19/2012 12:39 pm
I reckon this hold down and fire process might take SpaceX a while to streamline but it will be worth it in the long run to prevent lifting off with potential problems.

Thanks for the great coverage from those posting screenshots and updates  ;D
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rdale on 05/19/2012 12:45 pm
Still forecasting a 40% chance of weather violation.

And a 50/50 chance of that ;)

Seriously I don't see any issues at that point in the morning, as I recall those showers don't get going until later (shoot, I don't even consider 345am to be morning in the first place...)

20% chance of weather violation.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Mike_1179 on 05/19/2012 01:21 pm
I reckon this hold down and fire process might take SpaceX a while to streamline but it will be worth it in the long run to prevent lifting off with potential problems.


Aren't most LV held down until the engines are firing without a problem?  I don't think SpaceX is the only one that does this
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/19/2012 01:25 pm
I reckon this hold down and fire process might take SpaceX a while to streamline but it will be worth it in the long run to prevent lifting off with potential problems.

Aren't most LV held down until the engines are firing without a problem?  I don't think SpaceX is the only one that does this

I understand yes for liquid-fueled engines, but not for solid motors.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 01:25 pm
Aren't most LV held down until the engines are firing without a problem? 

Yes. IIRC, Delta II might be different in that the core engine cannot lift it off the pad anyway.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 01:29 pm
Post scrub briefing is now on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV_JqBOeXMk
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: brihath on 05/19/2012 02:02 pm
So a borescope is similar to an endoscope used by a doctor to check your insides?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borescope

So this is a non-destructive means of examination, which will enable them to look at the feed channels for the chamber of Engine 5?

"trending" for "low fuel" could possibly point to a leak in the fuel feed line, perhaps?

It is too early to tell, but it also could involve how quickly the turbopump came up to speed, or whether a valve was open all the way.  Lots of possibilities at this point in time.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MKremer on 05/19/2012 02:16 pm
It is too early to tell, but it also could involve how quickly the turbopump came up to speed, or whether a valve was open all the way.  Lots of possibilities at this point in time.

Already stated that valves weren't a problem.
Turbopump speed would have been flagged and noted quickly if deficient.

Let's see what more detailed engine data and borescope inspections lead to, for a possible cause.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Avron on 05/19/2012 03:20 pm
Was wondering if the density altitude from time of day, and location of the engine for this mix would cause a startup trend that is out of character ..
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 03:34 pm

It is too early to tell, but it also could involve how quickly the turbopump came up to speed, or whether a valve was open all the way.  Lots of possibilities at this point in time.

On the vavle:

Next T-0s:

03:44 - 22nd.
About 03:22 - 23rd.

Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.

Visual inspection of the chamber, borescope the pump.

Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

Traj of the ISS has allowed the possible May 24th opportunity.

Should be able to roll back to the hanger and back out by the 22nd if required.

And that's over.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Norm38 on 05/19/2012 03:45 pm
Engine 5 was trending high from the start, but hit the abort limit at 0.5 seconds. Compared to static fire, was out of family. Static fire it was rock solid.

Does not look like a sensor failure. Never seen it before on the pad.

Need all nine engines for lift off. Two engines can fail later for nominal mission.

Not a software issue.

PC Pressure on Engine 5 (high pressure) was the abort on the first flight, but they had a window that time.

Ms Shotwell distancing herself from Elon's tweet. Need to look at the engine.

This is not a failure, this is aborted with purpose, it would have been a failure if we lifted off with this issue.

Engine change would be a couple of days. May swap engine 5 from the other F9 at Cape. If required.


Wait, from the quote in bold, are they saying that they're certain the engine would have failed if they lifted off, or that it would have been a failure of their launch criteria to allow a liftoff with an engine out of spec?
Are there any indications the engine was in serious mechanical danger?

Given that the 2nd stage engine is the same, and can have the same issue, obviously they can't abort the 2nd stage ignition.  So does the second stage have vastly reduced limits, or no limits at all?

If this anomaly had been on the 2nd stage, what then?  Just press for orbit and hope the engine holds together?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: edkyle99 on 05/19/2012 03:45 pm

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.


Prevalve, yes, but aren't there are other valves, like the main valves, bleed valves, etc.?

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: aero on 05/19/2012 03:54 pm
Next T-0s:

03:44 - 22nd.
About 03:22 - 23rd.

Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.

Visual inspection of the chamber, borescope the pump.

Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

Traj of the ISS has allowed the possible May 24th opportunity.

Should be able to roll back to the hanger and back out by the 22nd if required.

And that's over.

Repeating:
Quote
Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

I understood Ms. Shotwell to say that Flight 1 engine 5 was trending high, just not as dramatically or as much as this one because the abort limit was much tighter.

The point though, is that it was trending. That makes twice that engine 5 has shown a high pressure trending problem on start-up, that we know of. How many times have all nine engines been integrated with the fuel tanks and fuel feeds then all nine fired simultaneously?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 03:59 pm
Repeating:
Quote
Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

You're assuming too much. "wasn't trending like this one" and "wasn't trending, [comma] like this one" are two different things.

I understood her to mean the F9-01 was more of a pressure spike (noisy ducer data, etc) than a pressure rise trend. That's IIRC the context the Pc bound was talked about back then and why they went with a simple redline tweak.

Anyway, abort from a remote pad camera:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrxM--FRgnE
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Avron on 05/19/2012 04:00 pm

Next T-0s:

03:44 - 22nd.
About 03:22 - 23rd.

Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.

Visual inspection of the chamber, borescope the pump.

Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

Traj of the ISS has allowed the possible May 24th opportunity.

Should be able to roll back to the hanger and back out by the 22nd if required.

And that's over.

Repeating:
Quote
Flight 1 the engine wasn't trending like this one.

I understood Ms. Shotwell to say that Flight 1 engine 5 was trending high, just not as dramatically or as much as this one because the abort limit was much tighter.

The point though, is that it was trending. That makes twice that engine 5 has shown a high pressure trending problem on start-up, that we know of. How many times have all nine engines been integrated with the fuel tank feeds and fired simultaneously?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.



I understand it was a trend that was out of character ...  she also indicated that it was compared to current knowledge of the engine, and trended outside, and thus  was shutdown..
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: wolfpack on 05/19/2012 04:01 pm
I understood Ms. Shotwell to say that Flight 1 engine 5 was trending high, just not as dramatically or as much as this one because the abort limit was much tighter.

The point though, is that it was trending. That makes twice that engine 5 has shown a high pressure trending problem on start-up, that we know of. How many times have all nine engines been integrated with the fuel tanks and fuel feeds then all nine fired simultaneously?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.



My guess would be 5 is in the center position, so its plume is impinged by the surrounding 8 other Merlins, which lessens the nozzle expansion ratio, and this would make it more likely to run higher Pc. Maybe I've got the physics backwards on that one, I'm an EE not an ME. Anyone?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Avron on 05/19/2012 04:03 pm
I understood Ms. Shotwell to say that Flight 1 engine 5 was trending high, just not as dramatically or as much as this one because the abort limit was much tighter.

The point though, is that it was trending. That makes twice that engine 5 has shown a high pressure trending problem on start-up, that we know of. How many times have all nine engines been integrated with the fuel tanks and fuel feeds then all nine fired simultaneously?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.



My guess would be 5 is in the center position, so its plume is impinged by the surrounding 8 other Merlins, which lessens the nozzle expansion ratio, and this would make it more likely to run higher Pc. Maybe I've got the physics backwards on that one, I'm an EE not an ME. Anyone?

Thats how I see it,, when have they done a test all up at this time of day with higher density air.. etc.. there must be a backpressure..
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 04:05 pm
Err, the plumes don't interact at sea level.

The way I see it, these engines have been through something like 7 ignitions by now - at least - and it's always possible the previous shutdown transients induced some change that didn't register during the actual burn.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/19/2012 04:05 pm
Each stage has undergone multiple firings in Texas. Also,it's not terribly uncommon to have the same engine give you grief both times. Assuming you have a random engine problem to different launches, the probability of it being the same engine position both times is still one ninth (~11%).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JohnFornaro on 05/19/2012 04:06 pm
7 pages late to the party.

Bummed about the abort.

Many thanks to Chris for the forum and the coverage.

Looking forward to May 22.

Rah rah ree SpaceX!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: aero on 05/19/2012 04:08 pm
Can outside pressure propogate back through the shock at the throat to affect chamber pressure? I don't think so.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 04:21 pm

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.


Prevalve, yes, but aren't there are other valves, like the main valves, bleed valves, etc.?

 - Ed Kyle

But watch the presser for that question and that answer. I don't think Ms Shotwell would omit mentioning a problematic valve in relation to the engine by hiding with "Oh, but the prevalve was ok".

The common sense approach on interpretation is sometimes the best approach.

(You watch, they'll find a faulty valve now I've said that! :D)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 04:31 pm
@waynehale

"Some days chicken, some days feathers' my boss would say after a scrub."
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: renclod on 05/19/2012 04:47 pm
Each stage has undergone multiple firings in Texas. Also,it's not terribly uncommon to have the same engine give you grief both times. Assuming you have a random engine problem to different launches, the probability of it being the same engine position both times is still one ninth (~11%).

Combinations of 18 taken 2 at a time =
18! / (2! x 16!) =
18 x 17 / 2 =
153

1 in 153 = 0.0065 = 0.65%

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: aero on 05/19/2012 04:50 pm
Question regarding fuel consumption with one or two failed engines. Would an engine out (after launch) have caused the other engines to consume enough extra fuel getting to orbit to spoil the demonstrations planned for today's mission? Or is the first stage fuel not related to the extra fuel needed for the demo?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: aero on 05/19/2012 04:53 pm
Each stage has undergone multiple firings in Texas. Also,it's not terribly uncommon to have the same engine give you grief both times. Assuming you have a random engine problem to different launches, the probability of it being the same engine position both times is still one ninth (~11%).

Combinations of 18 taken 2 at a time =
18! / (2! x 16!) =
18 x 17 / 2 =
153

1 in 153 = 0.0065 = 0.65%


Exactly. It's not the engines or the turbopumps or the valves, it's the engine location relative to the fuel feed.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: arkaska on 05/19/2012 04:56 pm
Question regarding fuel consumption with one or two failed engines. Would an engine out (after launch) have caused the other engines to consume enough extra fuel getting to orbit to spoil the demonstrations planned for today's mission? Or is the first stage fuel not related to the extra fuel needed for the demo?

According to the presser Falcon 9 have 2 engine out capability after liftoff but need all 9 for liftoff. Either the other engines burn more fuel or they just burn longer, I would guess the later but am no expert.

And regarding the extra fuel for the demo, it is extra fuel for Dragon which is not used for launch but only in-orbit ops.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Space Pete on 05/19/2012 05:00 pm
Well, I'm only half-bummed about the scrub.

You see, I set my alarm for 9:00 AM this morning British time (with launch being at 9:55), and sure enough it went off on time. So, I got up, turned the alarm off (I put the alarm down the other end of the room so that I'd have to get up), then lay back down for "just a few more minutes", just to wake up properly.

Bad idea. Next thing I know, it's 10:07 on the clock. So I thought to myself a word I won't repeat here, raced to my computer, and checked in here to see a scrub.

So, scrub = bad, but not missing launch = good. :D
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 05:02 pm
Combinations of 18 taken 2 at a time =
18! / (2! x 16!) =
18 x 17 / 2 =
153

1 in 153 = 0.0065 = 0.65%

I don't think that's quite right. If your starting point is that you have two launches with an engine problem, pick any engine out from the 1st launch and there's a 11% chance that's the same engine as on the 2nd launch as it can be any of the 9 engines.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: edkyle99 on 05/19/2012 05:03 pm

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.


Prevalve, yes, but aren't there are other valves, like the main valves, bleed valves, etc.?

 - Ed Kyle

But watch the presser for that question and that answer. I don't think Ms Shotwell would omit mentioning a problematic valve in relation to the engine by hiding with "Oh, but the prevalve was ok".

The common sense approach on interpretation is sometimes the best approach.

(You watch, they'll find a faulty valve now I've said that! :D)

If it isn't a valve, I can't think of many very "nice" explanations for what happened.  I'm figuring that I'll be sleeping in on Tuesday...

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Dappa on 05/19/2012 05:04 pm
Each stage has undergone multiple firings in Texas. Also,it's not terribly uncommon to have the same engine give you grief both times. Assuming you have a random engine problem to different launches, the probability of it being the same engine position both times is still one ninth (~11%).

Combinations of 18 taken 2 at a time =
18! / (2! x 16!) =
18 x 17 / 2 =
153

1 in 153 = 0.0065 = 0.65%

No. Once the first engine has failed, the chance of that first failure happening is 1 (100%), no matter which position it is in. The chance of the next failure being the same engine position is simply 1/9, as Robobeat said.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: renclod on 05/19/2012 05:12 pm
... If your starting point is that you have two launches with an engine problem,

Per Robotbeat' s post, the starting point is (correctly IMO):
two launch attempts
two engine problems
random engine failure

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: brihath on 05/19/2012 05:13 pm

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.


Prevalve, yes, but aren't there are other valves, like the main valves, bleed valves, etc.?

 - Ed Kyle

But watch the presser for that question and that answer. I don't think Ms Shotwell would omit mentioning a problematic valve in relation to the engine by hiding with "Oh, but the prevalve was ok".

The common sense approach on interpretation is sometimes the best approach.

(You watch, they'll find a faulty valve now I've said that! :D)

If it isn't a valve, I can't think of many very "nice" explanations for what happened.  I'm figuring that I'll be sleeping in on Tuesday...

 - Ed Kyle

Yeah...all speculation aside, I hope they find something simple with a readily identifiable root cause.  A long delay has a lot of ISS scheduling issues with other visiting vehicles.  One article in AW&ST that was addressing all the ISS scheduling constraints saw this flight pushing out to September if it had a significant delay in May, and that was before the delay caused by software validation.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Avron on 05/19/2012 05:18 pm
... If your starting point is that you have two launches with an engine problem,

Per Robotbeat' s post, the starting point is (correctly IMO):
two launch attempts
two engine problems
random engine failure




question to the stats folks, is it significant that a similar problem seems to be happening to as engine is position 5, i.e. is position 5 a bad palace for an engine ? is the sample size too small? and if so how many more firings until its significant?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Carreidas 160 on 05/19/2012 05:23 pm
... If your starting point is that you have two launches with an engine problem,

Per Robotbeat' s post, the starting point is (correctly IMO):
two launch attempts
two engine problems
random engine failure



You method allows for two engines failing on one flight. There are 81 possibilities of two failing engines, e.g. (1, 1), (1, 2), (1, 3), ... etc. where (x, y) stands for "engine x fails on flight 1, engine y fails on flight
2).

There are 9 combinations (1, 1), (2, 2), ... , (9, 9) where the same engine fails on both flights. So 9 / 81 = 1/9 ~ 11%.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/19/2012 05:30 pm
Each stage has undergone multiple firings in Texas. Also,it's not terribly uncommon to have the same engine give you grief both times. Assuming you have a random engine problem to different launches, the probability of it being the same engine position both times is still one ninth (~11%).

Combinations of 18 taken 2 at a time =
18! / (2! x 16!) =
18 x 17 / 2 =
153

1 in 153 = 0.0065 = 0.65%


Exactly. It's not the engines or the turbopumps or the valves, it's the engine location relative to the fuel feed.
Didn't read what I said, did you? If you have 9 engines, and fail one randomly then another randomly, there's a one out of nine chance that it'll be the same engine.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/19/2012 05:31 pm
Taken by Andre Kuipers as ISS passed overhead a few minutes before the T-0

http://www.flickr.com/photos/astro_andre/
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: wintermuted on 05/19/2012 05:31 pm
Can outside pressure propogate back through the shock at the throat to affect chamber pressure? I don't think so.

That's correct, in supersonic flow anything that happens downstream of the choke point cannot communicate upstream.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: aero on 05/19/2012 05:32 pm
If all the fuel constraints were on Dragon because of the demo, why were we thinking that the launch window was only one second wide because of fuel constraints? Does Dragon do the "cross range" burns and not the boosters?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: renclod on 05/19/2012 05:32 pm
You method allows for two engines failing on one flight.
If random engine failures occuring, yes it should be allowed in considerations.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/19/2012 05:33 pm
... If your starting point is that you have two launches with an engine problem,

Per Robotbeat' s post, the starting point is (correctly IMO):
two launch attempts
two engine problems
random engine failure




question to the stats folks, is it significant that a similar problem seems to be happening to as engine is position 5, i.e. is position 5 a bad palace for an engine ? is the sample size too small? and if so how many more firings until its significant?

I don't think you can say yet with confidence with just statistics that it's engine placement. Of course, later analysis may show that engine placement matters, but you can't say that (yet) just because it happened to the same engine position twice. Of course, if it happens three or four times... You have a pretty strong hint.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: arkaska on 05/19/2012 05:36 pm
If all the fuel constraints were on Dragon because of the demo, why were we thinking that the launch window was only one second wide because of fuel constraints? Does Dragon do the "cross range" burns and not the boosters?

Dragon is so heavy because of the fuel load that Falcon have no fuel margin, it needs all the fuel to reach orbit without flying cross range.

If Dragon would have needed less fuel it would weight less meaning Falcon would have margin to fly cross range as shuttle could. I guess that technically they could load more payload on shuttle and then loose the cross-range capability.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Space Pete on 05/19/2012 05:36 pm
One article in AW&ST that was addressing all the ISS scheduling constraints saw this flight pushing out to September if it had a significant delay in May, and that was before the delay caused by software validation.

Correct - there are some windows in May and June, after which the ISS schedules and beta angles likely push the flight into September.

Are you sure it was AW&ST? I never saw that. Here's the one I wrote from two weeks ago:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/iss-schedule-dragon-launch-19-may-future-manifest-outlook/
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: wolfpack on 05/19/2012 05:54 pm

That's correct, in supersonic flow anything that happens downstream of the choke point cannot communicate upstream.

I stand corrected.

"The choked flow of gases is useful in many engineering applications because the mass flow rate is independent of the downstream pressure, depending only on the temperature and pressure on the upstream side of the restriction. Under choked conditions, valves and calibrated orifice plates can be used to produce a desired mass flow rate."

Told you, we never covered this in Circuits 101.  :P

Back on topic, given when Ms. Shotwell said, must be something with the fuel flow. My guess is maybe the injector (pintle?) could have been damaged during shutdown transients after the hot-fire test? Plausible?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Antares on 05/19/2012 06:01 pm
Can outside pressure propogate back through the shock at the throat to affect chamber pressure? I don't think so.

Small point of emphasis: there's no shock at the throat.  If there were, everything downstream would be subsonic.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Antares on 05/19/2012 06:06 pm
This whole fuel margin thing is an integrated problem between Falcon and Dragon.  Falcon *could* yaw steer or Dragon could plane change or an optimized combination of both to get back into the plane of Station.  However, SpaceX *chooses* not to use any propellant on either vehicle to do that.  This maximizes the amount of propellant remaining on Dragon for prox ops in case a re-rendezvous needs to occur.  Tis better to have a spacecraft holding on orbit waiting for repaired software than having it safely back floating in the Pacific wishing it hadn't spent those hypergols getting into the plane or altitude of Station.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ChrisC on 05/19/2012 06:16 pm
Thanks Antares for the explanation on margin.  Sadly I expect you (and others) will be answering the exact same question in three days, because that's what's been happening here for months now.  FAQ #1: why the instantaneous / 1sec launch window?  Shuttle, cross range, Soyuz, over and over and over.

Also, can you guys who are arguing about the statistics just agree to disagree and stop cluttering this update thread, especially as many of us are checking this thread (and L2) frequently throughout the weekend to see what SpaceX finds out and decides?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: psloss on 05/19/2012 06:32 pm
Also, can you guys who are arguing about the statistics just agree to disagree and stop cluttering this update thread, especially as many of us are checking this thread (and L2) frequently throughout the weekend to see what SpaceX finds out and decides?
Agreed -- can we have a thread for updates?  Please?  There's a general discussion thread that would work for the armchair problem solving:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28486.0
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 06:44 pm
Taken by Andre Kuipers as ISS passed overhead a few minutes before the T-0

http://www.flickr.com/photos/astro_andre/

Wow. That's all types of epic!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: brihath on 05/19/2012 07:43 pm
One article in AW&ST that was addressing all the ISS scheduling constraints saw this flight pushing out to September if it had a significant delay in May, and that was before the delay caused by software validation.

Correct - there are some windows in May and June, after which the ISS schedules and beta angles likely push the flight into September.

Are you sure it was AW&ST? I never saw that. Here's the one I wrote from two weeks ago:
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2012/05/iss-schedule-dragon-launch-19-may-future-manifest-outlook/

My apologies!  I thought it was in the commercial space articles from an April issue, but I reviewed them and it wasn't.  That information was presented in your article, and it was excellent. 

That is why I come here FIRST for authoritative spaceflight reporting!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Space Pete on 05/19/2012 08:07 pm
My apologies!  I thought it was in the commercial space articles from an April issue, but I reviewed them and it wasn't.  That information was presented in your article, and it was excellent. 

That is why I come here FIRST for authoritative spaceflight reporting!

No worries, thanks. You just got me worried that AW&ST had nicked our content! ;)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris-A on 05/19/2012 08:20 pm
The webcast was archived by YouTube. (we got lucky)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB8GbQaBDxM

Edit: I don't care for embedded youtube videos. Interesting, a section of the livestream feed was archived.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 08:23 pm
Meh, that's a crappy quality version of the source webcast available here: http://new.livestream.com/spacex/Launch
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:13 pm
All very quiet at the moment. Nothing from all sides at this time (of course, a lot will be sleeping during the day). We know via L2 they got through detanking and were going to pad open, but no reports back on any status of the investigation yet.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JNobles on 05/19/2012 09:17 pm
Elon just tweeted: 

Engine pressure anomaly traced to turbopump valve. Replacing on engine 5 and verifying no common mode.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/19/2012 09:19 pm
(You watch, they'll find a faulty valve now I've said that! :D)

Engine pressure anomaly traced to turbopump valve.

Hahaha, prophetic words, Chris!  ;D
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Space Pete on 05/19/2012 09:27 pm
So it was a valve!

Chris, you should have been a propulsion engineer! :D
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:27 pm
I knew it! ;D

Also funny that the second I said there wasn't an update, Elon tweeted.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: hrissan on 05/19/2012 09:32 pm
So what does it mean when the valve fails on the engine which was tested many times and performed flawlessly?

Is it a quality control issue? Or the engine shutdown (during tests) is too much a stress itself and can damage various components?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:36 pm
So what does it mean when the valve fails on the engine which was tested many times and performed flawlessly?

Is it a quality control issue? Or the engine shutdown (during tests) is too much a stress itself and can damage various components?

Welcome to the site's forum and that's a good question. Depends what exactly is wrong with the valve, etc. Probably too early to know as I suspect Elon's tweeted that as a live update to what he's been told. More details are likely to come, then we can work that question better.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Prober on 05/19/2012 09:38 pm
So what does it mean when the valve fails on the engine which was tested many times and performed flawlessly?

Is it a quality control issue? Or the engine shutdown (during tests) is too much a stress itself and can damage various components?

maybe the lube coked up after a few tests?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Archer on 05/19/2012 09:38 pm
They have only one vital pipe, not 2 parallel pipes and valves?
Wow! Is this the common practice in rocket engines?

We always had all important pipelines doubled in oil/chemical industry.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: dunderwood on 05/19/2012 09:45 pm
They have only one vital pipe, not 2 parallel pipes and valves?
Wow! Is this the common practice in rocket engines?

We always had all important pipelines doubled in oil/chemical industry.

That's not practical in cases where you have to carry all your infrastructure with you.  Every pound you add to a second stage is a pound less of payload.  Every ~5 pounds or so on the first stage is a pound less payload.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Antares on 05/19/2012 09:49 pm
Aerospace engineers build munitions.  Everyone else builds targets :)

It's easy when you can use 4x factors of safety.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/19/2012 09:54 pm
SpaceX statement:

Today’s launch was aborted when the flight computer detected slightly high pressure in the engine 5 combustion chamber. We have discovered root cause and repairs are underway.

During rigorous inspections of the engine, SpaceX engineers discovered a faulty check valve on the Merlin engine.  We are now in the process of replacing the failed valve.  Those repairs should be complete tonight.  We will continue to review data on Sunday.  If things look good, we will be ready to attempt to launch on Tuesday, May 22nd at 3:44 AM Eastern.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: mr. mark on 05/19/2012 09:58 pm
Good news, hope to see a launch early Tuesday morning.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: krytek on 05/19/2012 09:59 pm
What's really scary is that if this malfunction occurred only a few seconds later the entire mission would have failed.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Vegeta on 05/19/2012 10:03 pm
So what does it mean when the valve fails on the engine which was tested many times and performed flawlessly?

It does make me curious on how SpaceX tests for lifetime degradation of components. I also hope they don't damage anything unexpectedly during a replace operation.

I've worked in designing electronics for aerospace and it's very easy to fix one thing but then break two others.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Mader Levap on 05/19/2012 10:05 pm
So this time it wasn't bogus/overly conservative settings? Whoa. As krytek said, it could be very bad. Happy to hear fix is easy.
Only one question left, why this valve was faulty to begin with? Multiple test firings damaging something? Quality issue? Process issue? Something else?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: arkaska on 05/19/2012 10:41 pm
Thanks Antares for the explanation on margin.  Sadly I expect you (and others) will be answering the exact same question in three days, because that's what's been happening here for months now.  FAQ #1: why the instantaneous / 1sec launch window?  Shuttle, cross range, Soyuz, over and over and over.

Also, can you guys who are arguing about the statistics just agree to disagree and stop cluttering this update thread, especially as many of us are checking this thread (and L2) frequently throughout the weekend to see what SpaceX finds out and decides?

It is important to note that Shuttle only had a 5 minute launch window and even if this mission had had a 5 minute window it wouldn't be enough to recycle from a T-0 abort (in this cause it needed a valve R&R so a recycle wouldn't be possible by hopefully but you get my point anyway).

As a second note, do we have any info if SpaceX got the range for May 22? IIRC in the presser they said SpaceX might be ready for 22nd but they didn't have the range get.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jongoff on 05/19/2012 10:41 pm
Aerospace engineers build munitions.  Everyone else builds targets :)

It's easy when you can use 4x factors of safety.

+1

Of course, finding a way to get past the munition model and more towards transportation hardware would be a good thing.

~Jon
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: douglas100 on 05/19/2012 10:48 pm
What's really scary is that if this malfunction occurred only a few seconds later the entire mission would have failed.

One of the reasons spaceflight is so expensive: you must get it right first time on launch. Meticulous attention to detail and extensive testing costs.

And even when the vehicle has flown many times things can still go wrong, for example the Sea Launch Zenit. Like they say, it's hard.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: douglas100 on 05/19/2012 10:52 pm
And one way of potentially reducing costs is what Jon just said. But that's as OT as I should go.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: aero on 05/19/2012 10:55 pm
A faulty valve. That's a relief and an easy fix, relatively speaking.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Norm38 on 05/19/2012 11:05 pm
I take it back, the limits are set right to catch a true hardware failure.

But to what degree did the valve fail?  Would 5 have produced no thrust, partial thrust, exploded?  Or could it have sub optimal but stable?

They can't lose an engine at liftoff but can they have a weak one and still get off the pad?  What's the margin?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jongoff on 05/19/2012 11:18 pm
I take it back, the limits are set right to catch a true hardware failure.

But to what degree did the valve fail?  Would 5 have produced no thrust, partial thrust, exploded?  Or could it have sub optimal but stable?

They can't lose an engine at liftoff but can they have a weak one and still get off the pad?  What's the margin?

Well, the typical failure of a check valve is to leak backwards. But a turbopump-fed rocket engine is a complicated enough beast that without knowing a lot about the Merlin's particular design it'd be hard to tell if this would've been benign or something that would've killed the engine.

I just hope they can find a way to design this problem out so it doesn't crop up again.

~Jon
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: robertross on 05/19/2012 11:31 pm
I take it back, the limits are set right to catch a true hardware failure.

But to what degree did the valve fail?  Would 5 have produced no thrust, partial thrust, exploded?  Or could it have sub optimal but stable?

They can't lose an engine at liftoff but can they have a weak one and still get off the pad?  What's the margin?

Check valves 'usually' have a spring (or similar device) in them to keep the seated closed, so as to ensure a positive seal, or to create a specific amount of pressure drop as a fluid passes through it.

If the spring mechanism failed, it could have restricted the check valve by preventing it from fully opening, creating the issue of a lean mixture (oxygen rich, assuming it was the fuel check, which corrolates with the issues they have presented).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: edkyle99 on 05/19/2012 11:37 pm
They can't lose an engine at liftoff but can they have a weak one and still get off the pad?  What's the margin?

They're at only a 1.2+ish thrust to weight ratio at T-0, so one lost engine would essentially make the rocket too heavy to efficiently lift off.  It would burn a lot of propellant and hardly go anywhere.

Falcon 9 v1.0 burns about 1.45 tonnes of propellant per second.  After about 30 seconds, it has burned enough propellant to offset the loss thrust provided by one Merlin 1C.  And so on.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: edkyle99 on 05/19/2012 11:41 pm

Check valves 'usually' have a spring (or similar device) in them to keep the seated closed, so as to ensure a positive seal, or to create a specific amount of pressure drop as a fluid passes through it.

If the spring mechanism failed, it could have restricted the check valve by preventing it from fully opening, creating the issue of a lean mixture (oxygen rich, assuming it was the fuel check, which corrolates with the issues they have presented).

I wonder if not seating correctly at the last shutdown could also be a possible failure mode.

 - Ed Kyle
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Antares on 05/19/2012 11:48 pm
Hard to say if this would have caused LOM without seeing the data and knowing the engine pretty intimately.  If the engine was trending toward high power, it could've been a runaway condition on the turbopump, which would either cause an immediate rotor RUD or it could settle into an out-of-power condition where some point of flow on the engine chokes and cannot physically increase any more.  That's something that can either be flown through or an eventual RUD due to high stress and fatigue.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: spacetraveler on 05/20/2012 12:00 am
So it seems that the parameter ranges weren't overly conservative. That's good news imo as it indicates they didn't have a repeat issue of what occurred previously and it shows that their current ranges are effective in discovering actual issues with the engines as it seems this was.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jongoff on 05/20/2012 12:01 am

Check valves 'usually' have a spring (or similar device) in them to keep the seated closed, so as to ensure a positive seal, or to create a specific amount of pressure drop as a fluid passes through it.

If the spring mechanism failed, it could have restricted the check valve by preventing it from fully opening, creating the issue of a lean mixture (oxygen rich, assuming it was the fuel check, which corrolates with the issues they have presented).

I wonder if not seating correctly at the last shutdown could also be a possible failure mode.

Depending on the size of check valve, some sort of debris could also cause the valve to not seat properly, which can cause backward leaks. Debris was by far the most common cause of check valve issues at Masten, but there are probably other ways to get a check valve to jam part way open.

~Jon
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Thunderbird5 on 05/20/2012 12:06 am
Hard to say if this would have caused LOM without seeing the data and knowing the engine pretty intimately.  If the engine was trending toward high power, it could've been a runaway condition on the turbopump, which would either cause a immediate rotor RUD or it could settle into an out-of-power condition where some point of flow on the engine chokes and cannot physically increase any more.  That's something that can either be flown through or an eventual RUD due to high stress and fatigue.

Pardon the ignorance, I get 'LoM', but what is 'RUD'?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: arnezami on 05/20/2012 12:06 am
I was wondering. At some point in the falcon 1 development (I believe it was after the first flight) they extended their parameters (of the engine) that are checked just before launch. Since, if they had done that, they would have detected (and aborted) a corroded nut issue (I believe).

Is it possible SpaceX is now greatly benefiting from that decision, after learning it the hard way?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: SpacexULA on 05/20/2012 12:08 am
Pardon the ignorance, I get 'LoM', but what is 'RUD'?

Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jabe on 05/20/2012 12:10 am
I think RUD is something like rapid undesirable disassembly
Jb
Edit:I was close:)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jongoff on 05/20/2012 12:12 am
Hard to say if this would have caused LOM without seeing the data and knowing the engine pretty intimately.  If the engine was trending toward high power, it could've been a runaway condition on the turbopump, which would either cause a immediate rotor RUD or it could settle into an out-of-power condition where some point of flow on the engine chokes and cannot physically increase any more.  That's something that can either be flown through or an eventual RUD due to high stress and fatigue.

Pardon the ignorance, I get 'LoM', but what is 'RUD'?

Rapid Unplanned Disassembly

aka Engine Self-Cannibalization
aka Baysplosions

Anyone else have any fun euphemisms for an energetic engine failures?

~Jon
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: spacetraveler on 05/20/2012 12:16 am
Unscheduled

undesirable

Unplanned

I guess all of those do actually fit. :)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/20/2012 12:17 am
Anyone else have any fun euphemisms for an energetic engine failures?

At some point, the engine was an assemblage of parts waiting to be put together, i.e. a "kit", much like an R/C airplane kit.  In R/C aircraft, we generally call this "rekitting".
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: deltaV on 05/20/2012 12:19 am
Doesn't the last page of posts belong in the discussion thread?

Anyone else have any fun euphemisms for an energetic engine failures?

I seem to recall reading "engine-rich combustion" or something like that for certain engine failures.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/20/2012 12:28 am
“A collection of parts flying in loose formation”… ;D

And now back to our regular un-scheduled updates…
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: robertross on 05/20/2012 12:47 am

Check valves 'usually' have a spring (or similar device) in them to keep the seated closed, so as to ensure a positive seal, or to create a specific amount of pressure drop as a fluid passes through it.

If the spring mechanism failed, it could have restricted the check valve by preventing it from fully opening, creating the issue of a lean mixture (oxygen rich, assuming it was the fuel check, which corrolates with the issues they have presented).

I wonder if not seating correctly at the last shutdown could also be a possible failure mode.

Depending on the size of check valve, some sort of debris could also cause the valve to not seat properly, which can cause backward leaks. Debris was by far the most common cause of check valve issues at Masten, but there are probably other ways to get a check valve to jam part way open.

~Jon

Well you would think that the fuel (RP-1) would be filtered via a transfer system prior to entering the rocket, and a coarse screen used at the tank outlet pipe on the off chance the tank wasn't 100% clean or something got past the transfer filter. To me, this seems like an unlikely source, though possible.

Sometimes there are finer screens ahead of critical components in case a component (or part of one) fails. In an engine that has previously fired, something might have dislodged creating this scenario. One would have to believe if these was an issue that cropped up during the last static test, at any point during the firing, they would have noticed something significant in the dta. As it seems likely they didn't, I'm thinking it could have occurred during movement from vertical to horizontal, or back to vertical again, or something failed at the latest engine firing as it started up.

If it were me, I wouldn't just say a check valve 'failed' even if I saw a broken spring as the cause, because then I'd be concerned on the whole batch (in all engines). If it were debris, where did it come from, and what else could it have affected, and is there more upstream, and is anything now downstream.

I imagine long hours of borescoping just to be sure (but that's just me).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Swatch on 05/20/2012 12:56 am
Doesn't the last page of posts belong in the discussion thread?

Anyone else have any fun euphemisms for an energetic engine failures?

I seem to recall reading "engine-rich combustion" or something like that for certain engine failures.

We like to call it HRC... Hardware Rich Combustion.   Gives you GREAT ISP......for about 1 second.

Also, I'm partial to 'punted' pintles...
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: dunderwood on 05/20/2012 01:08 am
Also, I'm partial to 'punted' pintles...

Occasionally referred to as 'puntles.'
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jongoff on 05/20/2012 01:14 am
Doesn't the last page of posts belong in the discussion thread?

Anyone else have any fun euphemisms for an energetic engine failures?

I seem to recall reading "engine-rich combustion" or something like that for certain engine failures.

We like to call it HRC... Hardware Rich Combustion.   Gives you GREAT ISP......for about 1 second.

Also, I'm partial to 'punted' pintles...

We once had a punted pintle on an engine where the pintle diameter was bigger than the throat diameter...

...but we probably ought to get back to updates before the moderators take us out behind the woodshed.

~Jon
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: sdsds on 05/20/2012 01:39 am
If it were me, I wouldn't just say a check valve 'failed' even if I saw a broken spring as the cause, because then I'd be concerned on the whole batch

Maybe the quick fix is because they have seen this failure mode before? If they have an estimate of its frequency of occurrence they could be confident with a same-batch replacement.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: FinalFrontier on 05/20/2012 02:16 am
Elon just tweeted: 

Engine pressure anomaly traced to turbopump valve. Replacing on engine 5 and verifying no common mode.




Well that's unfortunate. That's really unfortunate.

Swapping is fine but that doesn't explain why the valve failed or what precisely went wrong with it. And that's not exactly a small or non critical valve, its a critical component.


Going to have to see where this leads. Agree with edkyle that I will also be sleeping in on Tuesday. I don't see them making the 22nd.


Just got back from work (additional day today, wonderful I know  :P ) and figured I would chime in.


Really not happy to see that the issue was with a component like that, but I am still glad the vehicle and team preformed as planned and the vehicle remained safe.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: FinalFrontier on 05/20/2012 02:25 am
If it were me, I wouldn't just say a check valve 'failed' even if I saw a broken spring as the cause, because then I'd be concerned on the whole batch

Maybe the quick fix is because they have seen this failure mode before? If they have an estimate of its frequency of occurrence they could be confident with a same-batch replacement.


Personally, I would be concerned about other failures as a result. For example, what if there is an unknown risk of pieces of the valve/spring/(ect) breaking off and entering the pump if the same failure mode occurs? What if the batch is bad, we swap, and then that happens?

You do have a point but there are risks to that approach. Anytime something like this fails (my personal opinion) would be that its best to determine why rather then just swapping parts. But that's just me, can't speak to what SpaceX will do or has done in the past.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/20/2012 02:36 am

Well that's unfortunate. That's really unfortunate.

Swapping is fine but that doesn't explain why the valve failed or what precisely went wrong with it. And that's not exactly a small or non critical valve, its a critical component.
 

I would like to make a few points on that.

1. They have not replaced the valve yet, so they have not done an analysis and learned why it "failed". Until that part has been removed and the analysis is done, everything is an educated guess. So there is no reason to be disappointed in them for this scrub.

2. They do not have to fully share the failure mode with us, only give a satisfactory answer to NASA on why they scrubbed.

3. Was the quote from SpaceX that it would have been a LOM if they had not scrubbed even accurate? That originally came very soon after the scrub from a SpaceX employee who's job it was to interface with the press and public. They are repeating what they have been told by other members of the team one would assume the managers pressed for answers on what just went wrong. It makes a nice quote, but did they at that point even know enough to make that statement?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ronsmytheiii on 05/20/2012 02:40 am
SpaceX statement:

Today’s launch was aborted when the flight computer detected slightly high pressure in the engine 5 combustion chamber. We have discovered root cause and repairs are underway.

During rigorous inspections of the engine, SpaceX engineers discovered a faulty check valve on the Merlin engine.  We are now in the process of replacing the failed valve.  Those repairs should be complete tonight.  We will continue to review data on Sunday.  If things look good, we will be ready to attempt to launch on Tuesday, May 22nd at 3:44 AM Eastern.

The real question is whether SpaceX will investigate all of the similar check valves on the rest of the engines on this vehicle, as well as the rest of the MErlin Engines produced and valves procured.  THat was definitely something we would see on shuttle, but then again it is a commercial venture.

Would love to see a report on the issue just like shuttle, but that would probably be proprietary.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Antares on 05/20/2012 08:39 am
SpaceX won't.  Others would.  Goodness of either approach depends on what is important to the observer.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: pippin on 05/20/2012 09:16 am
Well, as long as you don't know exactly what was the fault in the valve and don't have a better design to replace it there is little sense in changing all of them, isn't there? After all, the ones in the engines right now are tested and why would a new one be any better as long as it's the same design/production run?
If you can identify a systematic issue you can mitigate it makes sense to change all valves, and given the fact that it seems to be something you can do in a day I would guess SpaceX would do that, they don' want to lose missions or launch opportunities, too, but if you can't, there's no sense in changing something that has worked so far for something you don't know whether it's better or not.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: manboy on 05/20/2012 09:27 am
There is a discussion thread, please take this there.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/20/2012 10:45 am
There is a discussion thread, please take this there.

I've responsed in the discussion thread.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28486.msg900578#msg900578 (http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28486.msg900578#msg900578)

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/20/2012 11:56 am
Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.


SpaceX statement:

Today’s launch was aborted when the flight computer detected slightly high pressure in the engine 5 combustion chamber. We have discovered root cause and repairs are underway.

During rigorous inspections of the engine, SpaceX engineers discovered a faulty check valve on the Merlin engine.

Are prevalve & check valve the same thing?

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JayP on 05/20/2012 01:23 pm
Normal ignition for all nine engines. 5 started fine then started trending high.

Vehicle was held down at all times.

High pressure could be high temps/low fuel in combustion. Prevalve was fully open (nominal). Need to look at the data.


SpaceX statement:

Today’s launch was aborted when the flight computer detected slightly high pressure in the engine 5 combustion chamber. We have discovered root cause and repairs are underway.

During rigorous inspections of the engine, SpaceX engineers discovered a faulty check valve on the Merlin engine.

Are prevalve & check valve the same thing?

cheers, Martin

No. The pre-valve is an actuated valve upstream of the engine that opens to allow fuel to flow to the engine itself. A check valve is a passive, one way device that does not allow the fluid flow to reverse. There are a few common ways to design a chck valve, so no telling exactly what went wrong with it, but it sounds like something prvented it from fully opening which led to a low flow rate.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/20/2012 01:29 pm
My biggest concern is that there are 8 other identical check valves in the vehicle. I hope they plan to borescope all of them.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Zed_Noir on 05/20/2012 01:42 pm
Just out curiosity. How much does it cost for one of these check valve in the Merlin engine? Is it tens, hundreds or thousands of dollars per valve.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/20/2012 01:47 pm
My biggest concern is that there are 8 other identical check valves in the vehicle. I hope they plan to borescope all of them.

Aren't there 9 more?  Isn't the upper stage engine identical except for the nozzle?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: robertross on 05/20/2012 02:18 pm
Just out curiosity. How much does it cost for one of these check valve in the Merlin engine? Is it tens, hundreds or thousands of dollars per valve.

Probably in the range of $200 to $600 each, more for any documentation & testing you would want done to them (before installation). Lots of variables though: materials of construction, connection method, whether it has soft seals or metal seats...

It matters not. It could just be a one of situation. And you could pay $1, $10,000 or $1M and it could still fail.

Considering how far SpaceX have come, so quickly, is a testament to the knowledge & experience of the people they have. I'm sure they will do what they feel is best to move forward.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Nickolai on 05/20/2012 03:04 pm
My biggest concern is that there are 8 other identical check valves in the vehicle. I hope they plan to borescope all of them.

Aren't there 9 more?  Isn't the upper stage engine identical except for the nozzle?

There are other differences in the upper stage engine, most notably I believe it is capable of throttling. Since throttling involves lowering the flow rate of all components (including and especially the turbopump), it's hard to say how similar the plumbing of the two engines really is.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JohnFornaro on 05/20/2012 03:25 pm
Swapping is fine but that doesn't explain why the valve failed or what precisely went wrong with it.

FWIW, swapping "on the pad" is something that I think is pretty cool and quite an accomplishment.  I don't know the particular risk statistics whatsoever, but if there is confidence in the utility of the replaced part, it could be swapped, and the reason for the failure studied at a later time.

I think I'm saying more or less the same thing as sdsds:

Quote from: sdsds
Maybe the quick fix is because they have seen this failure mode before? If they have an estimate of its frequency of occurrence they could be confident with a same-batch replacement.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jim on 05/20/2012 04:42 pm

FWIW, swapping "on the pad" is something that I think is pretty cool and quite an accomplishment. 


It is actually done in the hangar.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 05/20/2012 04:44 pm
Have they rolled back?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/20/2012 04:48 pm
The SFN feed still shows it vertical at the pad.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: oiorionsbelt on 05/20/2012 04:50 pm
Interesting, because SpaceX update said repairs are underway.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/20/2012 05:04 pm

FWIW, swapping "on the pad" is something that I think is pretty cool and quite an accomplishment. 


It is actually done in the hangar.
Swapping engines at the hangar. But I think other repairs can be done at the pad.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: majormajor42 on 05/20/2012 05:06 pm
According to Mark Boucher, SpaceX has confirmed that the faulty valve was replaced last night, at the pad so it seems.

Edited: Clongton, a new static fire would need range clearances, yes? Can that  even be done tonight or tomorrow and still make the current launch time of Tuesday morning? (I'll take replies in discussion thread)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/20/2012 05:11 pm
The faulty valve was replaced, at the pad so it seems.

Have they scheduled an engine fire to calibrate it?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Antares on 05/20/2012 05:19 pm
Check valves don't need calibration, at least not by the end user.  They would pass some sort of acceptance test series by the vendor.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: mr. mark on 05/20/2012 06:23 pm
Space.com is reporting that the repairs have been accomplished.

http://www.space.com/15772-spacex-private-rocket-engine-repairs.html

"SpaceX engineers replaced the balky valve late Saturday, and are now inspecting the Falcon 9 rocket in preparation for a possible second launch attempt early Tuesday (May 22)."
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/20/2012 07:49 pm
Check valves don't need calibration, at least not by the end user.  They would pass some sort of acceptance test series by the vendor.

The engine, not the valve. Are they going to hot fire the engine to retest it with the new valve?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/20/2012 07:53 pm
Are they going to hot fire the engine to retest it with the new valve?

Obviously not since they're still talking about going ahead with the launch on Tuesday.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MP99 on 05/20/2012 07:56 pm
Check valves don't need calibration, at least not by the end user.  They would pass some sort of acceptance test series by the vendor.

The engine, not the valve. Are they going to hot fire the engine to retest it with the new valve?

But that would be a test of engine operation, not calibration.

cheers, Martin
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: clongton on 05/20/2012 07:59 pm
Check valves don't need calibration, at least not by the end user.  They would pass some sort of acceptance test series by the vendor.

The engine, not the valve. Are they going to hot fire the engine to retest it with the new valve?

But that would be a test of engine operation, not calibration.

cheers, Martin

I know. Poor choice of words led to confusion.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: cuddihy on 05/20/2012 08:28 pm
My biggest concern is that there are 8 other identical check valves in the vehicle. I hope they plan to borescope all of them.

Bad idea unless inspection of the replaced valve suggests additional problems. You're more likely to do additional damage to the other currently good valves during the boroscope process than you are to find another problem.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: mr. mark on 05/20/2012 08:38 pm
Since repairs seems to have been made, what is the weather looking like for a Tuesday morning launch? Are we still looking at a 40% negative?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/20/2012 08:46 pm
30% chance of violation, but rdale would probably tell you even that is too pessimistic.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: rdale on 05/20/2012 08:55 pm
Yep - they are worried about cumulus cloud buildups but that isn't very common during the middle of the night.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: mr. mark on 05/20/2012 09:00 pm
 T - 34 hours 44 minutes and counting.... (maybe)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Norm38 on 05/20/2012 09:14 pm
Are they going to hot fire the engine to retest it with the new valve?
Obviously not since they're still talking about going ahead with the launch on Tuesday.

And given the circumstances that seems to be the best choice.  We've seen their abort process enough times to know they can shut down if needed.  Startup is the hot fire.  If the issue with the valve is cycle related, or related to a shutdown profile, then more testing at this point can only do harm.  Better to just attempt launch on schedule.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: sdsds on 05/20/2012 09:18 pm
We've seen their abort process enough times to know they can shut down if needed.  Startup is the hot fire [test].

Well phrased; it seems to accurately reflect the SpaceX approach.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: dcporter on 05/20/2012 11:24 pm
@elonmusk:

Quote
Simulations show launch ok with bad valve. Still, better to stop & fix. Recalling rockets after launch is not an option.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: robertross on 05/21/2012 12:37 am
@elonmusk:

Quote
Simulations show launch ok with bad valve. Still, better to stop & fix. Recalling rockets after launch is not an option.

That kind of attitude shows maturity in the launch business. Very good call.
Thanks for passing that along.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: FinalFrontier on 05/21/2012 01:29 am

Well that's unfortunate. That's really unfortunate.

Swapping is fine but that doesn't explain why the valve failed or what precisely went wrong with it. And that's not exactly a small or non critical valve, its a critical component.
 

I would like to make a few points on that.

1. They have not replaced the valve yet, so they have not done an analysis and learned why it "failed". Until that part has been removed and the analysis is done, everything is an educated guess. So there is no reason to be disappointed in them for this scrub.

2. They do not have to fully share the failure mode with us, only give a satisfactory answer to NASA on why they scrubbed.

3. Was the quote from SpaceX that it would have been a LOM if they had not scrubbed even accurate? That originally came very soon after the scrub from a SpaceX employee who's job it was to interface with the press and public. They are repeating what they have been told by other members of the team one would assume the managers pressed for answers on what just went wrong. It makes a nice quote, but did they at that point even know enough to make that statement?


Did not say I was disappointed in the fact they scrubbed, in fact just the opposite, I was saying I was concerned that it was this part that failed in terms of the next launch opportunity happening on time for the reasons I stated. Also, I wouldn't expect them to know right away what went wrong to cause the valve to fail, but I would expect them to investigate it and insure it can't happen again on the next window or cause something more severe.

2. No they don't, that's correct, and that's fine as long as they handle it.

3. Yes it was accurate it turned out that it was a propellant related check valve. They are very careful about putting inaccurate information out there I have not seen them do that even once so far. Also, don't know where your getting the idea that there was a SpaceX quote stating it would be an LOM,  thats totally ridiculous they never said any such thing. Nor did I say anything like that. I did however state that there was a possibility with this sort of issue (given that its a fairly important component) that it could potentially cause further failures, but to find out it would be a good idea to look into what caused the failure and how it could affect the vehicle if it happens again before flying again, not that "it WOULD be an LOM no matter what". Which they have since done, and have since determined that no, fortunately it would not be a large issue at all, but regardless the problem is resolved.

Where did you get this "SpaceX quote stating LOM" from? That never happened. Moving on.



All of that said it appears they did swap it out and are going to go ahead and launch again (based on the sims). So it would appear that, fortunately, failure of this competent cannot lead to something more severe like I mentioned earlier (shards of metal ect. note: took the example for that from the ssme sensor failures years ago where the sensors broke off inside the propellant lines).

So we will see how it goes on Tuesday. Still would like to know what caused that valve to fail.

Also, won't be discussing this further in this thread. If it comes up again I'll respond in the discussion thread so don't look here for my answer.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lee Jay on 05/21/2012 03:53 am
Where did you get this "SpaceX quote stating LOM" from? That never happened. Moving on.

4:08 into the post-abort briefing, it was stated that they need all 9 engines to liftoff, and that's why they aborted.  The implication is that losing one at or soon after liftoff results in LOM.  Of course, now Elon is saying they would have completed the mission with the bad valve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrRtxLV_6_w
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: DaveH62 on 05/21/2012 03:59 am
Is Elon saying it would have made it with 8 engines? Sounds like he is implying the engine wouldn't have failed, in spite of the issue.
Is it possible the engine would have functioned in spite of the check valve issue? Early conjecture was that it would not. Is there any reason to now think the engine would have worked?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/21/2012 04:00 am
Where did you get this "SpaceX quote stating LOM" from? That never happened. Moving on.

4:08 into the post-abort briefing, it was stated that they need all 9 engines to liftoff, and that's why they aborted.  The implication is that losing one at or soon after liftoff results in LOM.  Of course, now Elon is saying they would have completed the mission with the bad valve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrRtxLV_6_w
I think that meant they could've lasted with the bad valve until they could afford to shut off the engine. Nothing even close to an ideal scenario (and that is just a prediction, who knows what would've happened if it had actually flew), and it may have meant Dragon would've needed more propellant.

The good thing is that no vehicle was lost here, but they still have learned a great deal. Learning about a failure mode without losing a vehicle is a big plus compared to not learning about it or learning about it after losing a vehicle. Probably also means they'll take engine-out capability seriously and test it more thoroughly than they otherwise would've.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 07:32 am
Keep in mind that redlines for launch commit are likely not the actual physical limits of the engine (otherwise they wouldn't have been tweaking them in previous attempts) and it's possible that the engine would have settled into a different regime than nominal, but still operating OK. After all it is a gas generator cycle with reportedly good margins, it's not running on the bleeding edge of performance.

Still, simulation is one thing, test stand run is another. A moot point now, anyway.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 08:54 am
Florida Today (http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120521/SPACE/305210004/SpaceX-set-second-shot-launch?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Space%20News) has some details on the valve:

Quote
SpaceX spokeswoman Kirstin Grantham said a valve on a nitrogen gas line used to purge the Merlin engine before ignition remained stuck open.

Tests performed Sunday appeared to show the new valve working properly and no evidence of similar problems on the eight surrounding engines.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Garrett on 05/21/2012 09:44 am
Florida Today (http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120521/SPACE/305210004/SpaceX-set-second-shot-launch?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Space%20News) has some details on the valve:

Quote
SpaceX spokeswoman Kirstin Grantham said a valve on a nitrogen gas line used to purge the Merlin engine before ignition remained stuck open.

Tests performed Sunday appeared to show the new valve working properly and no evidence of similar problems on the eight surrounding engines.
Ok, so the extra N2 flow resulted in the higher pressure readings, right?
I presume the only effect of an open N2 purge would have been a (slightly) lower engine performance during the initial seconds of launch? I'm assuming that the N2 supply would have been close to empty at T-0.

Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jim on 05/21/2012 10:58 am
Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?

pad
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jongoff on 05/21/2012 11:47 am
Florida Today (http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20120521/SPACE/305210004/SpaceX-set-second-shot-launch?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Space%20News) has some details on the valve:

Quote
SpaceX spokeswoman Kirstin Grantham said a valve on a nitrogen gas line used to purge the Merlin engine before ignition remained stuck open.

Tests performed Sunday appeared to show the new valve working properly and no evidence of similar problems on the eight surrounding engines.

Wow, I guessed it pretty well. Now my only question is if it was a purge going into the Gas Generator fuel feed (my guess) or the main propellant injector.

~Jon
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/21/2012 11:54 am
Any history on that valve, was it made in house or vender supplied?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Garrett on 05/21/2012 11:54 am
Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?

pad
thought so, thanks.
Don't know why I said "pumps" above. I somehow got it into my head that it was the turbopump purge. Did I just imagine that I saw "pump" mentioned somewhere? Do the turbopumps have a purge line?
(Jon Goff only mentioned a gas generator fuel feed or the main propellant injector in his post above)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Garrett on 05/21/2012 12:00 pm
Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?

pad
also, a follow up question:
when the umbilicals are released, I presume another valve on the purge line closes at the attachment point? If that's the case, then would I be right in assuming that any problems caused by the faulty check valve would cease to exist after umbilical detachment?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Herb Schaltegger on 05/21/2012 12:02 pm
Any history on that valve, was it made in house or vender supplied?

Someone posted a link (in this thread or one of the others - can't recall) to a page for a component manufacturer that seems to indicate these valves are made by vendors. Probably a good call - flow control valves, check valves, transducers, couplings . . . all these things are semi-standardized, in that there are a several aerospace industry stalwarts who have a long history of manufacturing parts like that, are all familiar with the industry and government/NASA/milspec standards, are all familiar with the certification processes and procedures, etc.  They also all have in-house testing facilities for development and acceptance testing if required. No need to reinvent the wheel for every single component.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Rocket Science on 05/21/2012 12:19 pm
Any history on that valve, was it made in house or vender supplied?

Someone posted a link (in this thread or one of the others - can't recall) to a page for a component manufacturer that seems to indicate these valves are made by vendors. Probably a good call - flow control valves, check valves, transducers, couplings . . . all these things are semi-standardized, in that there are a several aerospace industry stalwarts who have a long history of manufacturing parts like that, are all familiar with the industry and government/NASA/milspec standards, are all familiar with the certification processes and procedures, etc.  They also all have in-house testing facilities for development and acceptance testing if required. No need to reinvent the wheel for every single component.
Thanks Herb, I found this in a search, but it speaks about SpaceX making valves their selves. In this case I can’t locate any hard info.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=27858.msg857256#msg857256

http://www.airspacemag.com/space-exploration/Visionary-Launchers-Employees.html?c=y&page=2

I’m not on a witch hunt, just curious…


~Robert
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 12:45 pm
Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?

I case you're wondering, IIRC the red bottles attached to the bottom of the second stage perform this function for Merlin Vac.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Garrett on 05/21/2012 12:52 pm
Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?

I case you're wondering, IIRC the red bottles attached to the bottom of the second stage perform this function for Merlin Vac.
I wasn't wondering, but thanks all the same ;)
For some reason I didn't think the second stage engines needed purging, but that's because I don't fully understand all the reasons for purging in the first place. Of course, if they do need purging, then on board tanks make sense, at least for the ascent phase.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: MarekCyzio on 05/21/2012 12:54 pm
Wow, I guessed it pretty well. Now my only question is if it was a purge going into the Gas Generator fuel feed (my guess) or the main propellant injector.

~Jon

I am not a rocket expert but I bet for gas generator. Why? Low pressure = a broken check valve's leak would not be catastrophic as there is one more valve down the line. If this was a propellant injector purge check valve, pressure in the N2 purge system would probably rip it apart. And Elon said the rocket would fly with the broken valve.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 12:58 pm
I case you're wondering, IIRC the red bottles attached to the bottom of the second stage perform this function for Merlin Vac.

I'd think the primary function of those is nitrogen storage for cold gas RCS?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 01:10 pm

I'd think the primary function of those is nitrogen storage for cold gas RCS?

I thought they used helium for that, Falcon 1 did. But I'm not terribly confident that F9 does. F9 user's guide just says Dracos.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: kkattula on 05/21/2012 01:13 pm
I wasn't wondering, but thanks all the same ;)
For some reason I didn't think the second stage engines needed purging, but that's because I don't fully understand all the reasons for purging in the first place. Of course, if they do need purging, then on board tanks make sense, at least for the ascent phase.

IANARS, but in case you've got a slow leak through one of your main propellant feeds, purging with inert gas a few seconds before ignition will prevent a hard start, or propellants mixing in places they shouldn't like the pumps, regen passages or injectors.

Also, IIRC, they do a cryo chill down of Merlin before ignition. If that's with LOX, some of it's going to flow back through the RP-1 injector. So you really want to purge the engine after that.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Norm38 on 05/21/2012 01:51 pm
Also, don't know where your getting the idea that there was a SpaceX quote stating it would be an LOM,  thats totally ridiculous they never said any such thing.

I think it was this quote from Ms. Shotwell during the post-scrub presser:
Quote
This is not a failure, this is aborted with purpose, it would have been a failure if we lifted off with this issue.

I took that as LOM when I first heard it.  It's clear now she meant a failure of the launch procedure, not a LOM itself.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ChefPat on 05/21/2012 02:19 pm
Are there any updates for the Update Thread? Are we a "Go" for 3:44 AM EDT?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 02:21 pm
Still waiting for the decision from SpaceX.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/21/2012 02:23 pm
Are we a "Go" for 3:44 AM EDT?

Nothing yet. I've just sent an inquiry for info via the L2 side.

Wondering how late they can leave this for a 22nd attempt.

New thread if they are go for the 22nd (thus this thread would come to a close).
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jim on 05/21/2012 02:28 pm
Question: does the N2 for purging the pumps come from onboard tanks or from an umbilical link to the pad?

I case you're wondering, IIRC the red bottles attached to the bottom of the second stage perform this function for Merlin Vac.

Those are for tank pressurization I believe.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 02:32 pm
Wouldn't it have helium spheres inside the tank for that?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/21/2012 02:35 pm
GO for the 22nd. New thread for that. Will keep this one going for a while.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 02:35 pm
Wouldn't it have helium spheres inside the tank for that?

Yeah, the users' guide says heated helium for tank pressurization.

But I'm glad you went first! Ha ha ha. (sorry about that, no more OT, I promise)

Edit- Responding to Jim's post below, so as not clog up the updates thread with additional posts: I agree, all helium spheres are submerged in the LOX tank of either stage.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Jim on 05/21/2012 03:01 pm
Wouldn't it have helium spheres inside the tank for that?

Yeah, the users' guide says heated helium for tank pressurization.


Still could come from tanks inside.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/21/2012 03:50 pm
SpaceX confirmation - will add this to the new thread later:

SpaceX Launch Attempt Set for 3:44 AM Eastern on Tuesday, May 22nd

Tomorrow’s Launch from Cape Canaveral Would Set the Stage for Historic Test Flight

First Ever Attempt by a Private Company to Send a Spacecraft to the International Space Station

 

Hawthorne, CA – Tomorrow, Tuesday, May 22nd, at 3:44 AM Eastern, Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) will attempt to launch a Falcon 9 rocket carrying a Dragon spacecraft to orbit in an exciting start to the mission that will make SpaceX the first commercial company in history to try to send a spacecraft to the International Space Station.

 

Sending a spacecraft to the space station has only ever been accomplished by four entities – the United States, Russia, Japan and the European Union. 

 

Saturday’s launch was aborted when the flight computer detected slightly high pressure in the engine 5 combustion chamber. During rigorous inspections of the engine, SpaceX engineers discovered a faulty check valve on the Merlin engine.  The failed valve was replaced on Saturday and after thorough analysis the vehicle has been cleared for launch.

 

SpaceX will webcast the launch live at www.SpaceX.com starting at 3:00 AM Eastern.

 

After launch, NASA will host a press conference that will include SpaceX CEO Elon Musk and President Gwynne Shotwell. It will be live on NASA TV or webcast at www.NASA.gov/ntv.

 

Detailed information on the mission is available in the SpaceX launch press kit: http://www.spacex.com/downloads/COTS-2-Press-Kit-5-14-12.pdf

Throughout the mission high-resolution photos will be posted at spacexlaunch.zenfolio.com and broadcast quality videos will be posted at vimeo.com/spacexlaunch.

 

Mission Highlights: During the mission, Dragon must perform a series of complex tasks, each presenting significant technical challenges (dates subject to change):

·         May 22/Launch Day: SpaceX’s Falcon 9 rocket launches a Dragon spacecraft into orbit from the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.

·         May 23: Dragon orbits Earth as it travels toward the International Space Station.

·         May 24: Dragon’s sensors and flight systems are subject to a series of complicated tests to determine if the vehicle is ready to berth with the space station; these tests include maneuvers and systems checks that see the vehicle come within 1.5 miles of the station. 

·         May 25: NASA decides if Dragon is allowed to attempt to berth with the station.  If so, Dragon approaches; it is captured by station’s robotic arm and attached to the station.  This requires extreme precision as both Dragon and station orbit the earth every 90 minutes.

·         May 26 - 31: Astronauts open Dragon’s hatch, unload supplies and fill Dragon with return cargo.

·         May 31: Dragon is detached from the station and returns to Earth, landing in the Pacific, hundreds of miles west of Southern California.

 

This is SpaceX's second demonstration flight under a 2006 Commercial Orbital Transportation Services (COTS) agreement with NASA to develop the capability to carry cargo to and from the International Space Station. The purpose of the flight is to provide NASA and SpaceX with flight data needed to ensure successful future missions to the space station. Demonstration launches are conducted to determine potential issues so that they might be addressed and – by their very nature – carry a significant risk. If any aspect of the mission is not successful, SpaceX will learn from the experience and try again.

 

About SpaceX

SpaceX designs, manufactures and launches the world’s most advanced rockets and spacecraft.  With a diverse manifest of 40 launches to deliver commercial and government satellites to orbit, SpaceX is the world’s fastest growing launch services provider.  In 2010, SpaceX became the first commercial company in history to put a spacecraft into orbit and return it safely to Earth.  With the retirement of the space shuttle, the SpaceX Falcon 9 rocket and Dragon spacecraft will soon carry cargo, and one day astronauts, to and from the Space Station for NASA.  Founded in 2002 by Elon Musk, SpaceX is a private company owned by management and employees, with minority investments from Founders Fund, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, and Valor Equity Partners. The company has over 1,800 employees in California, Texas, Washington, D.C., and Florida. For more information, visit www.SpaceX.com.

Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 05:10 pm
http://twitter.com/#/SpaceX/status/204618465565356032

"SpaceX launch attempt is set for 3:44 AM ET on Tuesday, May 22nd. Live launch webcast at 3:00 AM ET on http://www.spacex.com #DragonLaunch"
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Ben the Space Brit on 05/21/2012 06:05 pm
GO for the 22nd. New thread for that. Will keep this one going for a while.

That's good; increases the likelihood that it was a software-based problem (over-conservative red lines in the engine health monitoring software) rather than something genuinely wrong with engine #5's injectors or combustion chamber.

If that's the case, then the chances are good for a smooth launch.

That said, how many launch attempts and hotfires have been aborted so far because the IAU has had a panic attack about the engines? Maybe Falcon-9's software needs the same amount of attention as Dragon's did before this flight!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 06:07 pm
That's good; increases the likelihood that it was a software-based problem (over-conservative red lines in the engine health monitoring software) rather than something genuinely wrong with engine #5's injectors or combustion chamber.

You haven't been paying attention lately, have you?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Lurker Steve on 05/21/2012 06:16 pm
That's good; increases the likelihood that it was a software-based problem (over-conservative red lines in the engine health monitoring software) rather than something genuinely wrong with engine #5's injectors or combustion chamber.

You haven't been paying attention lately, have you?

Well, it was software the prevented the launch.

Software shut things down when it detected a faulty check value.

Now it's time for the Hardware folks to say Thank You instead of blaming the SW guys for more delays.

Next time, A SW guy will also turn off Elon's twitter account, so he doesn't announce what he thinks is the issue before anyone has really looked at the problem, and found the root cause to be something completely different.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ChrisC on 05/21/2012 07:07 pm
Welcome back, Ben :)

Guys, good observations but can we turn the chatter back down again?  This is an update thread.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: jaufgang on 05/21/2012 07:16 pm
Wired just posted an article titled "How One Faulty Nitrogen-Purge Valve Forced SpaceX to Abort"

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/spacex-nitrogen-purge-valve-abort/

Key quote:
Quote
A check valve that allows the nitrogen purge prior to ignition in the Merlin engine was stuck open just before launch. This stuck valve allowed “liquid oxygen to flow from the main injector [for the rocket engine itself] into the gas generator injector” that generates hot turbine gas, which drives the turbopumps, according to SpaceX. The turbopumps are basically very high-powered fuel and oxidizer pumps that deliver the liquids to the main combustion chamber of the rocket. The result was the turbopumps were operating at a slightly higher power level, resulting in the high pressure detected in the combustion chamber on engine five.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JimO on 05/21/2012 07:20 pm
We won't have the front row seat for rev-1 flyover any more, here in houston, because the vehicles won't exit Earth's shadow until they are well past zenith. But we might spot them off in the NE sky, going away.

Folks farther down track -- Memphis, Columbus, Albany -- ought to have a much better view of the train of objects, including the second stage, perhaps venting. PLEASE pass the word, confirm your local visibility, and go outside to LOOK.

...and report back.

 
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Danderman on 05/21/2012 07:20 pm
Nanoracks would like to thank @spacex for making it possible for NCESSE students to return to watch tomorrow's #dragonlaunch
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: kevin-rf on 05/21/2012 07:40 pm
Is't it times for a LAUNCH ATTEMPT 2 Updates thread?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/21/2012 08:01 pm
Is't it times for a LAUNCH ATTEMPT 2 Updates thread?

Want to get a bit closer to the start of the count, let's say an hour or so until we start it.... I don't fancy going without some sleep having to moderate a live launch thread because people are busy posting about their late night beer plans ;)
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 08:38 pm
Why is there a crane on the pad?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JBF on 05/21/2012 08:47 pm
It's for extending the HIF for the Flacon 9 v1.1.

Why is there a crane on the pad?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: JWag on 05/21/2012 08:50 pm
Why is there a crane on the pad?

It's for extending the HIF for the Flacon 9 v1.1.

1) Please don't top-quote.  I re-arranged your post.

2) There's no way they'd be doing any construction at the pad in the middle of a launch campaign!
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 08:51 pm
Why is there a crane on the pad?

It's for extending the HIF for the Flacon 9 v1.1.


Ha Ha. Seriously, does anyone know what they're doing? BTW the bucket has been lowered now.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Robotbeat on 05/21/2012 08:59 pm
Checking on the second stage?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: corrodedNut on 05/21/2012 09:02 pm
Checking on the second stage?

Yeah, but why? They don't normally do that ~3 hrs before starting the countdown, do they?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: ugordan on 05/21/2012 09:08 pm
They don't normally (funny word, since it's only the 3rd F9 flight...) leave the vehicle up for days either, so...

Last minute paranoia given the niobium nozzle issue on #2?
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/21/2012 09:18 pm
Attempt 2 thread:
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28942.0

Use the Party thread for general chit chat.
Use the Discussion Thread for C2+ for on topic and interesting discussion.
Title: Re: SCRUB: SpaceX Falcon 9/Dragon COTS Demo (C2+) LAUNCH ATTEMPT 1 UPDATES
Post by: Chris Bergin on 05/30/2012 11:47 pm
It's the traditional bump 'n lock to align the mission threads prior to EOM!