Author Topic: Other than earth where is the best place to live?  (Read 44120 times)

Offline Marcus

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #20 on: 06/04/2007 06:29 pm »
I voted for moons of Saturn. It might not be easy--or even possible--to maintain a self-sufficient colony there but; oh, the skies!
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Offline stargazer777

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #21 on: 06/04/2007 06:46 pm »
It wouldn't be possible on the Moons themselves -- but I can't argue about the view.   A space habitat,  or even a group of them, at one of the Saturnian Lagrange points would also have a spectacular view  -- and you would live to tell about it.

Offline scienceguy

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #22 on: 06/04/2007 08:03 pm »
I picked Mars because of its nearly 24 hour day (perfect for plant growth) and the fact that it has carbon dioxide and nitrogen in its atmosphere and it receives enough sunlight for plant growth.

All we would need are greenhouses!
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Offline Marcus

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #23 on: 06/04/2007 08:34 pm »
Quote
stargazer777 - 4/6/2007  11:46 AM

It wouldn't be possible on the Moons themselves...

Why not?
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Offline MKremer

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #24 on: 06/04/2007 08:57 pm »
Quote
Marcus - 4/6/2007  3:34 PM

Quote
stargazer777 - 4/6/2007  11:46 AM

It wouldn't be possible on the Moons themselves...

Why not?
I concur - why not?

Sure, Jupiter's large moons have big problems with radiation, but, other than Enceladus and Titan, there could be a lot to be gained in resources and location basing a station/colony on one of Saturn's other moons.

Offline mong'

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #25 on: 06/04/2007 09:05 pm »
actually titan would be a pretty good spot for colonization.
it has lots of hydrocarbons and water, and the atmosphere is almost pure nitrogen, everything life needs.
the cryogenic atmosphere would make power generation from nuclear reactors very efficient too.

it's also a good target for terraforming, methane is a pretty strong greenhouse gas, and the ambient temperature is just below its boiling point, if you could just raise the temperature a few degrees on certain spots it could trigger a runaway greenhouse effect potentially warming the surface to slightly above the freezing point of water.

but it's unclear what to do afterwards, it might not be a good idea to start releasing large quantities of oxygen in such a hydrocarbon rich atmosphere...

Offline Kaputnik

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #26 on: 06/04/2007 10:46 pm »
What's the radiation environment of Saturn like? I'm aware that all of the Galilean moons are uninhabitable because of this, but what about the other gas giants?
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Offline meiza

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #27 on: 06/04/2007 11:58 pm »
Quote
lambda0 - 4/6/2007  7:28 AM

According to Landis (NASA), the best place is ...Venus !
At 50 km altitude :
- Atmospheric pressure is 1 bar
- Temperature between 0° and 50°C
- Plenty of solar energy but protection against the most dangerous radiations by the atmosphere
- As the atmosphere is composed of CO2, a quite heavy gase, a balloon filed of oxygen and nitrogen would be in equilibrium, and a 1 or 2 km diameter balloon would easily carry a small city
- Due to the rotation of the atmosphere, and by controling the latitude, it is possible to reproduce a day/night cycle similar to Earth
- The atmosphere contains oxygen, carbon, sulfur, in fact many of the elements necessary for life

At first sight, Venus seems to be a very hostile place (500°C on the surface, P=100 atmosphere), unless this thick atmosphere is considered as an ocean : Earth is also not so pleasant at 10000 m under the level of the sea.
In fact, Venus may have many advantages compared to Mars...



What about hydrogen? There is potentially some amounts of hydrogen on mars.

Offline JonSBerndt

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #28 on: 06/05/2007 12:21 am »
Quote
stargazer777 - 4/6/2007  11:56 AM

"Security"? At least Earth has an atmosphere to weed out lots of space debris. And as for use as an interstellar vehicle, doesn't the craft require sunlight for crop growth?
If you read the heading on the thread, it says "Other than Earth, where is the best place to live?"  I think that excludes Earth from consideration, don't you?   Besides, none of the habitable alternative locations -- has a significant atmosphere.

Of course I read the heading. My comparison was an aside that referred to your statement, "They offer earth type gravity, an earth like environment ...". I'll add that with a planet or moon, for any point on the surface, you are protected from roughly half of the incoming trajectories because of the planet you are standing on that gets in the way.

Although I had seen these habitats as among the most far-fetched of space colonization pipe dreams, Bigelow's efforts have inspired me to think a little more open-minded. I still wouldn't want to live in one, should I live to be 969 years old.

Jon

Offline MKremer

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #29 on: 06/05/2007 01:52 am »
Quote
meiza - 4/6/2007  6:58 PM
What about hydrogen? There is potentially some amounts of hydrogen on mars.

Not much at all, unless you decide to spend the effort/resources to first mine frozen H2O from the poles or deep under other widely (and limitedly accessable) separate locations. Methane/LO2 production is lots easier... at least considering you're doing it from Mars' surface and what's available there.

Offline stargazer777

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #30 on: 06/05/2007 02:17 am »

Your right.  Let me rephrase.  I was assuming the Saturn's moons posed the same radiation problems that exist for the Jovian moons.  I was incorrect.  Saturn's 59 moons orbit mostly beyond the radiation belts of Saturn.  However, that does not change the extremely difficult & dangerous environment we will encounter on those moons.  For example, several contributors to this thread mentioned Titan.  Titan has an atmosphere 1.5 more dense than Earth's atmosphere 98.4% nitrogen 1.6% methane with an estimated surface temperature of minus 289 degrees F with ethane or methane clouds and methane rain.  This is an almost unimaginably hostile environment for humans.  One that would surely leave any potential settlers dreaming of an airless moon or planetoid.  However, if you want to chance it, be my guest.  Among the 59 moons of Saturn, I imagine that there are some moons that are no more hostile than our own moon.  My principal point remains correct though.  A space borne habitat would be a far better alternative.

 

http://solarsystem.jpl.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Saturn&Display=Moons

http://solarsystem.jpl.nasa.gov/planets/profile.cfm?Object=Sat_Titan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_%28moon%29

 


Offline stargazer777

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #31 on: 06/05/2007 02:47 am »
Of course I read the heading. My comparison was an aside that referred to your statement, "They offer earth type gravity, an earth like environment ...".
You need to work on your backhand.
 
I'll add that with a planet or moon, for any point on the surface, you are protected from roughly half of the incoming trajectories because of the planet you are standing on that gets in the way.
Tell it to the dinosaurs. And, of course, with a planet or moon you are at the receiving end of a deep gravity well continually drawing in all manner of big deadly objects.  Pleasant dreams....  
Although I had seen these habitats as among the most far-fetched of space colonization pipe dreams, Bigelow's efforts have inspired me to think a little more open-minded. I still wouldn't want to live in one, should I live to be 969 years old.
Open-minded.  Sure, Jon.  Who could question that?
   


Offline JonSBerndt

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RE: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #32 on: 06/05/2007 11:06 am »
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stargazer777 - 4/6/2007  9:47 PM
Tell it to the dinosaurs.

Which thrived for how long? In the case of a meteor hit on a moon, without an atmosphere and extant plant life, obviously the end effect is different.

The opinion I was expressing is that there is no place better than Earth here in this solar system, and no place that we yet know anything about outside of it - though I expect a compatible world will be discovered someday. Obviously, we disagree on the topic of enormous, self-contained, space habitats.

Jon

Offline mong'

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #33 on: 06/05/2007 11:34 am »
the main problem with space habitats are ressources availability, there's nothing in orbit nothing at all, whereas on a planetary surface you have a rich solid ground under your feet, you have basically the whole planet (or moon) available to make oxygen, water, rocket fuel, construction materials, ...

the availability of vast amounts of readily available ressources significantly reduces the complexity, cost and risk of a colony.
no need to ship anything from the earth, maybe some high tech components and medicine at the begining but that's it.
and no need for a 100% efficient closed loop life support system if you can extract oxygen and water from the planet's surface/atmosphere. it's also easier to work inside a gravity field than in microgravity.

all those factors contribute to making a planetary colony more practical than a space habitat, thus they are likely to appear sooner and in greater numbers. if the latter even ever appears at all.

Offline William Barton

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #34 on: 06/05/2007 12:26 pm »
I think it's important to remember we're not going to any of these places unless we have the technology to get there and stay there. Places like Titan are only far away and forbidding with today's off-the-shelf technology (but not impossible even now, merely too hard). The first "colonists" on Titan are likely to be second-generation space pioneers who grew up on the Moon, Mars, maybe Callisto, the asteroids, etc., and they'll be there to work Titan as a resource node for an embryonic space-faring civilization. Space colonization is never going to be anywhere near as risky as, for example, Jamestown or Plymouth, where the over-winter mortality rates were staggering. I dare say a nice comfy gaol in London was probably a better bet than Jamestown in 1610 (not to mention Roanoke, a generation earlier, where the mortality rate was 100% in the end).

Offline stargazer777

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #35 on: 06/06/2007 04:47 am »
the main problem with space habitats are ressources availability, there's nothing in orbit nothing at all, whereas on a planetary surface you have a rich solid ground under your feet, you have basically the whole planet (or moon) available to make oxygen, water, rocket fuel, construction materials, ...
the availability of vast amounts of readily available ressources significantly reduces the complexity, cost and risk of a colony.
  no need to ship anything from the earth, maybe some high tech components and medicine at the begining but that's it.  
  and no need for a 100% efficient closed loop life support system if you can extract oxygen and water from the planet's surface/atmosphere. it's also easier to work inside a gravity field than in microgravity.
 all those factors contribute to making a planetary colony more practical than a space habitat, thus they are likely to appear sooner and in greater numbers. if the latter even ever appears at all.

Actually Mong, I think you are wrong on that.  You just have to expand your vision a bit.  There are enormous -- almost unlimited -- amounts of ice and minerals of all types available on the countless asteroids in the asteroid belt and the "trojans" (not the condoms) trapped in Lagrange points by Jupiter, Saturn and the other gas & ice giants.  Ultimately these will prove to be far easier to mine and consume than most planetary resources and are perfect for sustaining the space borne civilization I am describing.  I didn't even mention the immense resources that will be available in the Kuiper Belt.  

Beyond this, my saying that I think we are unlikely to place large colonies on extremely hostile planets and moons doesn't mean we cannot or will not mine them or explore or exploit them.  I fully anticipate with tele-robotics and the far more advanced technologies we will have when we finally get out that far, we will be able to explore and exploit these worlds with limited human presence on the surface of those planets.  Humans will have better things to do than freeze their buns off in an intensely hostile environment.  I am not saying just do it from Earth -- I feel certain we must and will expand out as a people.  I am saying that -- just like current deep ocean exploration -- most can and will be done robotically by people who reside somewhere else.   And I think that somewhere else may well be the space habitats predicted by O'Neill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_%28astronomy%29
http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8663
http://space.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn9340&print=true

Offline mong'

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #36 on: 06/06/2007 11:09 am »
Quote
stargazer777 - 6/6/2007  6:47 AM  

 There are enormous -- almost unlimited -- amounts of ice and minerals of all types available on the countless asteroids in the asteroid belt and the "trojans" (not the condoms) trapped in Lagrange points by Jupiter, Saturn and the other gas & ice giants.  


I agree with that, actually my personnal belief is that space colonies are the most likely to appear near asteroids when mining them will prove to be practical, this way the mining crews can live with their families near their work sites, and not cost a fortune to bring back to mars/earth after work.

Quote
stargazer777 - 6/6/2007  6:47 AM

Ultimately these will prove to be far easier to mine and consume than most planetary resources and are perfect for sustaining the space borne civilization I am describing


this I don't agree with, at least in the short to mid term. asteroid mining will prove to be much more difficult than advertised, simply because of the lack a gravity, your digging machine will have nothing to pull against, since they will have almost no weight.
we will need other techniques to extract large quantities of material, and it's unclear what they will be.

this can't compete against a planetary surface, even with reduced gravity, where working is much simpler and you can use "traditionnal" techniques, also you will find propellant on planets/moons, in readily available form, whereas the asteroids rich in ressources don't have much volatiles.

finally a planetary body offers much more radiation protection than a space habitat; as was posted earlier, half the time you have the entire planet/moon between you and the sun.

and if you need additionnal protection, you can just cover the roof of your habs with the local dirt, no need to import expensive material from earth

Offline whitewatcher

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #37 on: 06/06/2007 04:23 pm »
Quote
lambda0 - 4/6/2007  8:28 AM

According to Landis (NASA), the best place is ...Venus !
At 50 km altitude :
- Atmospheric pressure is 1 bar
- Temperature between 0° and 50°C
- Plenty of solar energy but protection against the most dangerous radiations by the atmosphere
- As the atmosphere is composed of CO2, a quite heavy gase, a balloon filed of oxygen and nitrogen would be in equilibrium, and a 1 or 2 km diameter balloon would easily carry a small city
- Due to the rotation of the atmosphere, and by controling the latitude, it is possible to reproduce a day/night cycle similar to Earth
- The atmosphere contains oxygen, carbon, sulfur, in fact many of the elements necessary for life

At first sight, Venus seems to be a very hostile place (500°C on the surface, P=100 atmosphere), unless this thick atmosphere is considered as an ocean : Earth is also not so pleasant at 10000 m under the level of the sea.
In fact, Venus may have many advantages compared to Mars...



Interesting! What would be the "gravity" in such a "balloon"? What's your source of information?
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Offline 02hurnella

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #38 on: 06/06/2007 05:23 pm »
Gravity would be similar to that on the surface of venus... Like that theres gravity on a plane. venusian gravity is marginally less than earth (a few percent).

Offline meiza

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Re: Other than earth where is the best place to live?
« Reply #39 on: 06/06/2007 05:55 pm »
I ask again, is there hydrogen in the atmosphere of Venus? It's pretty essential for humans you know, and Mars has it.

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