So would you prefer to receive an email at home with the bad news, or be told during the work day, at work, and then have to walk past your co-workers to get frisked by security. Personally, I would definitely prefer the notification at home method, but your mileage may vary...
Quote from: Johnnyhinbos on 01/15/2019 09:07 pmSo would you prefer to receive an email at home with the bad news, or be told during the work day, at work, and then have to walk past your co-workers to get frisked by security. Personally, I would definitely prefer the notification at home method, but your mileage may vary...Have you ever faced lay-off before? I have at a previous job, was fortunate to get a last minute infusion of funding that prevented it. My employer was upfront about the situation, and explained that the issue was not due to my performance but the funding mechanism. And they explained it to my face.If I were to be let go, I would have wanted to get my personal items, and would imagine SpaceX employees will do so as well. So what does that save, other than a manager cowardly hiding behind an email?Edit: And for those left, it doesn't instill the greatest confidence in the company waiting around for a termination email that never comes. At that point, some of the brightest and best might think about moving employers to find one more "stable."
If I were to be let go, I would have wanted to get my personal items, and would imagine SpaceX employees will do so as well. So what does that save, other than a manager cowardly hiding behind an email?
WARN data for the layoffs in California:QuoteThese are the 577 positions SpaceX is cutting at its headquarters in a major round of layoffsDave Mosher and Samantha Lee 27mElon Musk's $30 billion rocket company, SpaceX, plans to lay off about 10% of its employees. A government document lists a majority of the positions being terminated.https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-layoffs-jobs-terminated-list-california-headquarters-2019-1
These are the 577 positions SpaceX is cutting at its headquarters in a major round of layoffsDave Mosher and Samantha Lee 27mElon Musk's $30 billion rocket company, SpaceX, plans to lay off about 10% of its employees. A government document lists a majority of the positions being terminated.
>Can we draw some conclusions from these numbers? >
Quote from: inventodoc on 01/15/2019 09:41 pmI think the SpaceX style of routinely decimating their workforce and impersonally sending firing/retention emails is immoral and a bad business practice. Sure, layoffs are sometimes necessary, but the 'tech' world has created a culture of treating workers as chattel; even though they may pay well, they are consumptive of their employees, show now loyalty to their workforce & engender little from their people (although the space mission overcomes this).Even if you are retained, going through cullings like this has to be extremely demoralizing. I certainly would never work for a company that behaves like this. I've avoided Google, Amazon and similar entities for this reason, despite being a prime candidate to work in a decent position there. I'm not saying to avoid economic realities, I am saying that responsible business value their workforce and treat them as humans should be treated. This always engendered me with a hard working and loyal labor force.OK, you would never work for a company that lays off people it doesn't want to have working for it any more. I am the opposite -- I would not want to work for a company that kept on people forever even if they were no longer the right fit for the company.To you, it's immoral for a company to cut these people. To me, it's immoral for a company not to do so. For the good of everyone, people should not have an assumption of lifetime employment.People should be free to leave a job whenever they decide it's not a right fit. When they leave, that can cause a lot of trouble for the company they are leaving, but they still should have that right. And it works both ways -- the company should have the right to terminate anyone that they decide is no longer the right fit for them, even if it causes problems for that individual.For either a person to stay at a company when it's not good for the employee or a company to keep an employee that is no longer good for the company is equally bad.Having companies keep people who are no longer the right fit just drags down all the other stakeholders in the company -- other employees, shareholders, customers, and suppliers -- because the company will not be able to change and improve. Over time, if lots of companies do this, it will bring down the economy as a whole. All will suffer.
I think the SpaceX style of routinely decimating their workforce and impersonally sending firing/retention emails is immoral and a bad business practice. Sure, layoffs are sometimes necessary, but the 'tech' world has created a culture of treating workers as chattel; even though they may pay well, they are consumptive of their employees, show now loyalty to their workforce & engender little from their people (although the space mission overcomes this).Even if you are retained, going through cullings like this has to be extremely demoralizing. I certainly would never work for a company that behaves like this. I've avoided Google, Amazon and similar entities for this reason, despite being a prime candidate to work in a decent position there. I'm not saying to avoid economic realities, I am saying that responsible business value their workforce and treat them as humans should be treated. This always engendered me with a hard working and loyal labor force.
What is the motivation in treating employees better? Some humane value.
...it stands to reason...
If SpaceX succeeds in jail-breaking us from Earth, this was worth it. There'll be more spaceflight jobs, sooner.
Quote from: Cinder on 01/16/2019 12:13 pmWhat is the motivation in treating employees better? Some humane value. Actually, improved productivity and profits. If those don't result, the humane treatment quickly disappears.Quote from: Cinder on 01/16/2019 12:13 pm...it stands to reason...Usually indicates fuzzy logic and incomplete argument to follow.Quote from: Cinder on 01/16/2019 12:13 pm If SpaceX succeeds in jail-breaking us from Earth, this was worth it. There'll be more spaceflight jobs, sooner. In other words, the end justifies the means, regardless of the human, financial or environmental cost.As far as I can see, the outrage against the layoffs is a sense of actual or vicarious betrayal. People assume that when one works hard and makes great personal sacrifices, one deserves continued membership in the tribe. A layoff violates the assumed bargain.The problem, if this is indeed the case, is that the employee hired in under mistaken assumptions. The job was not tribal membership, regardless of all the corporate hooraw. It was a job. The only thing people can expect in return for everything is their latest paycheck and benefits. If they understand and accept that fact, and prepare financially for instant termination as soon as they are no longer convenient for the company, layoffs would not be as traumatic.Note that this is generic, not specific to SpaceX. This is the current state of capitalism in much of the world, and depressing as it may be, employees need to recognize it and adapt.
Quote from: FutureSpaceTourist on 01/15/2019 11:25 pmhttps://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-layoffs-jobs-terminated-list-california-headquarters-2019-1Can we draw some conclusions from these numbers? Are there groups or categories that were disproportionately hit by the layoffs?
https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-layoffs-jobs-terminated-list-california-headquarters-2019-1
Or they had 2 development paths.CFRP in San PedroStainless Steel.They recently hired a water tank company to make a spaceship in about 3 weeks.Guess who wins the work.Hopefully the fast and cheap all metal design works and gets usable payload to orbit.
Quote from: rsdavis9 on 01/16/2019 08:47 pmOr they had 2 development paths.CFRP in San PedroStainless Steel.They recently hired a water tank company to make a spaceship in about 3 weeks.Guess who wins the work.Hopefully the fast and cheap all metal design works and gets usable payload to orbit.Except the orbital spacecraft won't be built by a water tank company. It'll be built like Atlas tanks but with internal structure whose only real purpose is to prevent collapse when there is zero relative pressure inside.
Quote from: Robotbeat on 01/17/2019 02:27 amQuote from: rsdavis9 on 01/16/2019 08:47 pmOr they had 2 development paths.CFRP in San PedroStainless Steel.They recently hired a water tank company to make a spaceship in about 3 weeks.Guess who wins the work.Hopefully the fast and cheap all metal design works and gets usable payload to orbit.Except the orbital spacecraft won't be built by a water tank company. It'll be built like Atlas tanks but with internal structure whose only real purpose is to prevent collapse when there is zero relative pressure inside.Citation, or personal opinion?
Stainless steel is correct, but different mixture of alloys & new architecture. Unlike Atlas, Starship is buckling stable on launchpad even when unpressurized.
As far as I can see, the outrage against the layoffs is a sense of actual or vicarious betrayal. People assume that when one works hard and makes great personal sacrifices, one deserves continued membership in the tribe. A layoff violates the assumed bargain.
QuoteAs far as I can see, the outrage against the layoffs is a sense of actual or vicarious betrayal. People assume that when one works hard and makes great personal sacrifices, one deserves continued membership in the tribe. A layoff violates the assumed bargain.How many of us feel the bargain ought to be only one way? If I, the employee, "works hard and makes great personal sacrifices", then the company "owes me" and "violates the bargain" if I am laid off.But if I, the employee, work for a company that has worked hard to offer me a great position, and met every bargain on their side over a period of time in exchange for my employment, then I feel I have not "violated the bargain" and "I don't owe them anything in particular" if I tell them I'm quitting and leave them.Why the asymmetry?