Author Topic: Partners discuss China inclusion  (Read 13054 times)

Offline PeterAlt

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Partners discuss China inclusion
« on: 03/03/2012 03:20 pm »
http://www.globalmontreal.com/canada/some+space+station+partners+appear+ready+to+welcome+china+into+the+group/6442592395/story.html

Interesting how Bolden found a loophole about China. If the partners invite China, it is not bilateral. From the article...

NASA administrator Charles Bolden pointed out that the five partners are reaching out to other non-traditional nations.

"We have encouraged each other to go out and try to find people who would not have an opportunity to enjoy this incredible facility that we have and bring them in as best we can," he said.

Bolden has told The Canadian Press that NASA is an organization that looks at international co-operation, but it's prohibited by Congressional action from any bilateral activities with China.

But he adds that he hopes the space partners will continue their conversations with the Chinese — and if a relationship does develop, it's a peaceful one.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #1 on: 03/03/2012 03:50 pm »
No way Congress would let NASA work around the law.  China and NASA cooperation is a nonstarter for this reason, regardless of the amount of partners.

Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #2 on: 03/03/2012 04:15 pm »
If Russia were to provide an attachment point - say from their up-coming node module - and all Chinese hardware were independent of ISS resources (power, Oxygen, water, etc.), would NASA's approval still be mandatory?

Offline arkaska

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #3 on: 03/03/2012 05:00 pm »
This US are to involved in the ISS also the RS for the Chinese to dock without its permission. What we can hope for is a change of the law in the future. This is not impossible, who would have thought that Russia and US would have a common space station in the future in the 1960's..

Offline OpsAnalyst

Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #4 on: 03/03/2012 05:06 pm »
If Russia were to provide an attachment point - say from their up-coming node module - and all Chinese hardware were independent of ISS resources (power, Oxygen, water, etc.), would NASA's approval still be mandatory?

US Space Policy and programs have been proxy for US foreign policy from the beginning.  Seen in that light, perhaps the Partners should request China agree to stop subsidizing "non-gov't" hackers in their attacks on NASA - including MCC-H, which watches over ISS - as a non-negotiable condition for any discussion of their participation. It's a sure bet that NASA isn't the only agency under attack. 

To actually answer your question, while the Russians could issue unilateral approval for an attachment to their module, resource consumption is another issue.  There are bi- and multi-lateral agreements in hand that "govern" resource allocation and utilization.  Presumably, the Chinese would need to enter into negotiations and the question would be, what do they bring to the table?

But the law is the law, as was pointed out above.  And IMHO, no matter what the law says, no discussions should progress until the attacks stop.  Period.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 05:07 pm by OpsAnalyst »

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #5 on: 03/03/2012 05:32 pm »
This US are to involved in the ISS also the RS for the Chinese to dock without its permission. What we can hope for is a change of the law in the future. This is not impossible, who would have thought that Russia and US would have a common space station in the future in the 1960's..
Lots of people, actually. A joint mission to the Moon was considered (though rejected, of course).
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

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Offline Paul Adams

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #6 on: 03/03/2012 05:51 pm »
We keep hearing this kind of stuff; 'NASA as a Moslem outreach program', now the head of NASA hoping that the ISS partners find a way to keep talking to nations like China that would require a law set by Congress to be circumvented.

This is a very strange way to do business, no wonder people are not taking NASA seriously any more.

(Yesterday on NPR 'Science Friday' I heard the quote from a caller "now that NASA is dead". It struck a chord with me that this might be the public perception.)

« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 06:17 pm by Paul Adams »
It's all in the data.

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #7 on: 03/03/2012 06:15 pm »
If Russia were to provide an attachment point - say from their up-coming node module - and all Chinese hardware were independent of ISS resources (power, Oxygen, water, etc.), would NASA's approval still be mandatory?

Any shift in US China relations will require a large change in how the Chinese operate as a government bureaucracy and culture ( close to the change from the USSR to Russia that began ISS) It is not going to happen (or frankly beneficial to the US) any other way.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 06:15 pm by Ronsmytheiii »

Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #8 on: 03/03/2012 07:47 pm »
Let's say the partners held a vote 'yes' or 'no' on Chinese inclusion. Under the law, is NASA required to vote 'no'? What if NASA abstains from voting?

Offline Ronsmytheiii

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #9 on: 03/03/2012 07:56 pm »
Let's say the partners held a vote 'yes' or 'no' on Chinese inclusion. Under the law, is NASA required to vote 'no'? What if NASA abstains from voting?

It is all about Congress, and 70% of ISS funding comes from the US Congress. They set ISS policy, and if they do not want China then there is no way around it.

Offline TJL

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #10 on: 03/03/2012 08:02 pm »
Would Russia be allowed to launch one of China's astronauts aboard Soyuz to the ISS?
« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 08:03 pm by TJL »

Offline PeterAlt

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #11 on: 03/03/2012 08:07 pm »
Let's say the partners held a vote 'yes' or 'no' on Chinese inclusion. Under the law, is NASA required to vote 'no'? What if NASA abstains from voting?

It is all about Congress, and 70% of ISS funding comes from the US Congress. They set ISS policy, and if they do not want China then there is no way around it.

Then Bolden is talking very irresponsibly... Or is this more Bolden 'misspeak' which he has become known for?

Offline manboy

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #12 on: 03/03/2012 09:25 pm »
This is a very strange way to do business, no wonder people are not taking NASA seriously any more.

(Yesterday on NPR 'Science Friday' I heard the quote from a caller "now that NASA is dead". It struck a chord with me that this might be the public perception.)
::)

Would Russia be allowed to launch one of China's astronauts aboard Soyuz to the ISS?
This a very good question.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2012 09:26 pm by manboy »
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline SpacexULA

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #13 on: 03/04/2012 02:10 am »
Personally the China issue always blows my mind.

Soyuz-Apollo happened at the height of the cold war, with a nation considered our military equal in many ways.

China is a 3rd world nation, yes they have been caught in spying operations against the United States, but Germany, Israel, & Russia have all been caught with spy operations in the US (All within the last decade).  Why is their spying on the US not a issue for space policy but China is?

So why is it 40 years ago we could have Apollo-Soyuz with a nation with thousands of Nukes pointed at us, but now we can't do joint missions with a 3rd world nation with a military budget 1/4 ours?
No Bucks no Buck Rogers, but at least Flexible path gets you Twiki.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #14 on: 03/04/2012 03:50 am »
See also posts at:
Some ISS Partners Ready for Chinese Participation [Global Montreal]
Leaders of the international space station (ISS) partner organizations met March 1 in Quebec City, and some expressed an interest in welcoming China to their ranks, Global Montreal reported.
...



But the law is the law, as was pointed out above.  And IMHO, no matter what the law says, no discussions should progress until the attacks stop.  Period.


Do you mean all such attacks on everyone by whomever no matter who does them or what their excuse is? One might also wonder a bit if such 'attacks' ever serve a semi-useful purpose for whoever is 'attacked'? Do such 'attacks' ever cause the 'attacked' to devise or evolve a more secure and improved computer defense system? Oh well, these questions may or may not be off topic.

And yes, "the law is the law". Trying to circumvent Congress is a bad idea. We obviously need clear and strong bipartisan Congressional support for a sustainable beyond LEO space exploration program. The trust and cooperation that is forged at the International Space Station will most likely be the model for what will happen on the Moon and maybe even for much of what will happen on the Earth. 


Would Russia be allowed to launch one of China's astronauts aboard Soyuz to the ISS?
This a very good question.


Yep. And is that "very good question" a nonhardware and vaguely 'Dennis Tito' type of inquiry? You know, in a true partnership there has to be some flexibility on many levels. You cannot always have it your own way. A reasonable compromise often works out pretty good for everyone and can even become the launchpad for more complex activities.

America and Russia managed to do the Apollo–Soyuz Test Project (ASTP) in July 1975 during the middle of the Cold War. Where there is persistence and a common will there should be several wise ways to accomplish what is needed.

Cheers!

PS: I went to post the above and discovered that SpacexULA had some similar thoughts... And yes, "Personally the China issue always blows my mind."

Edited.
« Last Edit: 03/04/2012 04:09 am by HappyMartian »
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Offline QuantumG

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #15 on: 03/04/2012 03:59 am »
The trust and cooperation that is forged at the International Space Station will most likely be the model for what will happen on the Moon and maybe even for much of what will happen on the Earth. 

I think you misspelled "stagnation and mediocrity".

Human spaceflight is basically just LARPing now.

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #16 on: 03/04/2012 04:53 am »
The trust and cooperation that is forged at the International Space Station will most likely be the model for what will happen on the Moon and maybe even for much of what will happen on the Earth. 

I think you misspelled "stagnation and mediocrity".




You are a bit confused. All things considered, the world, including China, America, India, and many other countries, is making progress and doing pretty good. Human innovation and useful capabilities in many areas are improving despite the obvious problems that also exist. This thread is about Partners discuss China inclusion and that discussion is also a sign of progress.

Maybe you just happen to live in a negative universe. You might want to think about trying to move to the ISS or the Moon. Both places could make good use of a smart person like you!

Cheers!
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

Offline manboy

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #17 on: 03/04/2012 04:58 am »
The trust and cooperation that is forged at the International Space Station will most likely be the model for what will happen on the Moon and maybe even for much of what will happen on the Earth. 
I think you misspelled "stagnation and mediocrity".
Please expand on this.
"Cheese has been sent into space before. But the same cheese has never been sent into space twice." - StephenB

Offline Robotbeat

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #18 on: 03/04/2012 05:44 am »
The trust and cooperation that is forged at the International Space Station will most likely be the model for what will happen on the Moon and maybe even for much of what will happen on the Earth. 
I think you misspelled "stagnation and mediocrity".
Please expand on this.
Please don't.
Chris  Whoever loves correction loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.

To the maximum extent practicable, the Federal Government shall plan missions to accommodate the space transportation services capabilities of United States commercial providers. US law http://goo.gl/YZYNt0

Offline HappyMartian

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Re: Partners discuss China inclusion
« Reply #19 on: 03/04/2012 05:46 am »
"The Moon is the most accessible destination for realizing commercial, exploration and scientific objectives beyond low Earth orbit." - LEAG

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