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SLS / Orion / Beyond-LEO HSF - Constellation => Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle (HLV/SLS) => Topic started by: Chris Bergin on 12/04/2017 06:04 PM

Title: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Chris Bergin on 12/04/2017 06:04 PM
https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2017/12/nasa-evaluates-em-2-launch-of-space-gateways-ppe/

- By Philip Sloss

With additional L2 renders by Nathan Koga.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Markstark on 12/04/2017 08:25 PM
Great article and renderings.

Good visualing of the NRHO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5O77OV9_ek

Looks bizarre in the Earth centered inertial frame.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: JDTractorGuy on 12/04/2017 09:04 PM
Has there been any info on what would be use for the lunar landing portion?

Altair back from the dead?
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: TaurusLittrow on 12/04/2017 09:19 PM
Has there been any info on what would be use for the lunar landing portion?

Altair back from the dead?

NASA's notional mission sequence sees the DSG in NRHO primarily as a staging area for the Deep Space Transport to make a 300-400-day "shakedown" cruise followed by a transit of the Mars system. Crewed spacecraft to the lunar surface are not in the picture. Likely partners on the DSG, like ESA, may have more lunar surfaced-focused ideas.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: whitelancer64 on 12/04/2017 09:20 PM
Has there been any info on what would be use for the lunar landing portion?

Altair back from the dead?

There are currently no plans for landing on the lunar surface. The current raison d'etre for the DSG is to field-test tech for going to Mars and being the assembly location for a future Mars transit spacecraft.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: MATTBLAK on 12/04/2017 09:22 PM
I suspect any lander is going to be halfway between the Apollo LM and the size of Altair. And if NASA can't get the funding; perhaps an ESA/JAXA consortium could be asked to build it. But then; they have to get funding appropriations approved, too! The other option is to ask Commercial Space - including the big guys Boeing/LockMart/Northrop-Grumman - to compete for the contract. I'd love to see Elon's proposal, assuming he was even interested.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: TaurusLittrow on 12/04/2017 09:27 PM
I suspect any lander is going to be halfway between the Apollo LM and the size of Altair. And if NASA can't get the funding; perhaps an ESA/JAXA consortium could be asked to build it. But then; they have to get funding appropriations approved, too! The other option is to ask Commercial Space - including the big guys Boeing/LockMart/Northrop-Grumman - to compete for the contract. I'd love to see Elon's proposal, assuming he was even interested.

ESA, in particular, seems more interested in lunar surface activity. At some point, there will be a "fork in the road" for DSG partners if NASA still champions Mars first and the Europeans head for the lunar surface.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Todd Martin on 12/04/2017 10:15 PM
Why would NASA want to co-manifest Orion on the PPE deployment mission?  The PPE module could be much heavier if Orion wasn't tagging along.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Markstark on 12/04/2017 10:15 PM
NASA owes the National Space Council a report on returning to the Moon. I suspect that report will include the DSG and high level details on a landing option

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Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: RonM on 12/05/2017 12:02 AM
Why would NASA want to co-manifest Orion on the PPE deployment mission?  The PPE module could be much heavier if Orion wasn't tagging along.

You got that backwards. On Orion missions after EM-1, there will be leftover payload capacity. It's almost a free flight for the DSG modules. It also gives Orion after EM-2 somewhere to go.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: rakaydos on 12/05/2017 04:26 PM
I suspect any lander is going to be halfway between the Apollo LM and the size of Altair. And if NASA can't get the funding; perhaps an ESA/JAXA consortium could be asked to build it. But then; they have to get funding appropriations approved, too! The other option is to ask Commercial Space - including the big guys Boeing/LockMart/Northrop-Grumman - to compete for the contract. I'd love to see Elon's proposal, assuming he was even interested.
I'm pretty sure Elon already mentioned his proposal- High elliptical rendezvous refueling.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Khadgars on 12/05/2017 05:21 PM
Why would NASA want to co-manifest Orion on the PPE deployment mission?  The PPE module could be much heavier if Orion wasn't tagging along.

You got that backwards. On Orion missions after EM-1, there will be leftover payload capacity. It's almost a free flight for the DSG modules. It also gives Orion after EM-2 somewhere to go.

Yup.  With the current architecture, this is the best utilization of current and in-work assets.  Also allows private sector and other country agencies to participate in a straight forward capacity.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: fregate on 01/22/2018 01:00 AM
While DRHO provides a bridge between Earth-Moon system  Lagrange points EML1 and EML2, does anybody know what are Delta-V and TOF for flights from DRHO to EML1 and from DRHO to EML2? 
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: envy887 on 01/23/2018 05:12 PM
While DRHO provides a bridge between Earth-Moon system  Lagrange points EML1 and EML2, does anybody know what are Delta-V and TOF for flights from DRHO to EML1 and from DRHO to EML2?

On the order of a few days and a few hundred m/s. You can probably find more exact answers by poking around in some of the papers here:
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Antrs.nasa.gov+near+rectilinear+halo+orbit
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: hektor on 01/25/2018 08:03 AM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: mike robel on 01/25/2018 08:40 AM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Zed_Noir on 01/25/2018 10:10 AM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?

As long as Nasa don't do their usual micro-management insight. Which is unlikely.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: hektor on 01/25/2018 10:22 AM
Well I see that if confirmed as a transfer of an element from SLS launch to commercial launch. That is kind of interesting from that standpoint.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: woods170 on 01/25/2018 12:00 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?
No.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: oldAtlas_Eguy on 01/25/2018 03:06 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle
I thought this PPE was to be co-manifested on EM-2.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: meberbs on 01/25/2018 03:25 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle
I thought this PPE was to be co-manifested on EM-2.
As far as I know, that has been the official plan, but from when I first heard about DSG, I never thought that it was something that needed SLS to support it. It seemed like if designed right it could be done with just commercial vehicles. I don't expect SLS to last long enough to build up the DSG if it flies at all after EM-1, so it is good to hear that this is being considered.

I listened to part of a recent presentation from SNC about NextStep 2 (see here (https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=44738.msg1775463#msg1775463)), and I was pleased to hear that they are designing all of their elements to fit in an EELV 5m fairing.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: brickmack on 01/25/2018 04:09 PM
While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?

AFAIK, all the PPE bids currently known are heavily derived from existing commercial systems. 4 years is pushing it, but probably not by much. Construction of the pressurized modules will probably be more time consuming though
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: envy887 on 01/25/2018 05:02 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?

Unless they launch the PPE on a second unmanned iCPS or build a second MLP, it is not flying before mid 2023. This is driven by the MLP availability for EM-2, which is 33 months after Block 1 stops flying.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Jim on 01/25/2018 07:34 PM

Unless they launch the PPE on a second unmanned iCPS or build a second MLP, it is not flying before mid 2023. This is driven by the MLP availability for EM-2, which is 33 months after Block 1 stops flying.

"commercial launch vehicle" means not SLS.  It could fly on Delta IV, Atlas V, Vulcan, Falcon, BFR, Blue Origin, etc.  What ever is available and certified.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: Jim on 01/25/2018 07:35 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?
No.

Yes, it is only a spacecraft
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/25/2018 09:30 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?

The Power and Propulsion Element of the DSG is based on the propulsion module of the ARM. How far along did the ARM get?
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: woods170 on 01/26/2018 11:32 AM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?

The Power and Propulsion Element of the DSG is based on the propulsion module of the ARM. How far along did the ARM get?
With regards to the propulsion module: Powerpoint stage basically.

The robotic section passed KDP-B in 2016 and an RFP for DDT&E was issued that same year for the robotic spacecraft (including the propulsion module). Proposals were due in October 2016. But no contracts were awarded because ARM was killed-off in April 2017.
So, the propulsion module is nothing but fancy CGI right now.

The companies on contract to look into DSG only have contracts for design studies and Proof-Of-Concept ground mock-ups. Which is a long way off from DDT&E activities for the actual PPE.
Title: Re: NASA evaluates EM-2 launch options for Deep Space Gateway PPE
Post by: A_M_Swallow on 01/26/2018 01:51 PM
Some leaks about the NASA FY2019 budget mention

Quote
Achieving an early milestone in human space exploration by launching the Power Propulsion Element in 2022 using a commercial launch vehicle

While past performance is no guarantee of future results, does anyone really think NASA can build and launch this in 4 years?

The Power and Propulsion Element of the DSG is based on the propulsion module of the ARM. How far along did the ARM get?
With regards to the propulsion module: Powerpoint stage basically.

The robotic section passed KDP-B in 2016 and an RFP for DDT&E was issued that same year for the robotic spacecraft (including the propulsion module). Proposals were due in October 2016. But no contracts were awarded because ARM was killed-off in April 2017.
So, the propulsion module is nothing but fancy CGI right now.

The companies on contract to look into DSG only have contracts for design studies and Proof-Of-Concept ground mock-ups. Which is a long way off from DDT&E activities for the actual PPE.

Pity.