Author Topic: First non ICBM-derived rocket?  (Read 23143 times)

Offline thydusk666

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First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« on: 10/09/2013 10:27 pm »
What was the first rocket that really had no connection to the war field?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #1 on: 10/10/2013 12:10 am »
Not to be flip, but none...

All have built on knowledge and technology that in some way derived from previous systems and lessons learned, which basically go all the way back to the german A-4.

Now depending how you spin it, Saturn I/Ib/V, Scout, Shuttle, OTRAG,Zenit,Engeria,Pegasus,Atlas V,Delta IV and some Indian launch vehicles could all count to one degree or another. 
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Offline Danderman

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #2 on: 10/10/2013 12:24 am »
If by "rocket" you mean "satellite launcher", and if you mean "ICBM" and not "military system", then Vanguard qualifies.

If you just mean "rocket", there are any numbers of choices, with Aerobee being one.

If you mean "military system", maybe the Shuttle or N-1 qualifies.


Offline kevin-rf

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #3 on: 10/10/2013 12:33 am »
This would make a good thread to discuss what begot what... It is not a completely straight line.

Simple example, it was lesson's learned from the A-4 engine lead to the XLR83-NA-1 rocket engines that boosted the Navaho missile to speed. It was from these engines that the engines that powered the Atlas ICBM and Thor IRBM were derived. Thor become Delta, then Delta II. Atlas had a very long life as a satellite launcher, with the final "true" version being the Atlas III.

Now look at the german Wasserfall rocket. It was designed as an anti aircraft missile after the A-4 (V-2) had been designed. The Soviet adapted the design into what became known as the SCUD. In the US, the engine actually was redesigned and became the engine for the Viking rocket, then Vanguard's first stage.

Funny thing about the Vanguard Able second stage. It was powered by the AJ-10. The same engine that powered the Titan's Transtage, the Apollo Service Module, The Able upper stage became the Thor/Delta upper stage, the Shuttle OMS engines, and I believe was chosen for NASA's Orion Capsule... 

Another thing to think about, all large solid's really owe the heritage to the ICBM/SLBM program's.
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Offline kevin-rf

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #4 on: 10/10/2013 12:35 am »
Oops, forgot Ariane...
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Offline savuporo

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #5 on: 10/10/2013 12:44 am »
If indeed the "rocket" here means orbital launcher, then H-II would maybe be a good candidate.
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #6 on: 10/10/2013 02:02 am »
What was the first rocket that really had no connection to the war field?
An argument can be made for Japan's ISAS Lambda (L-4S), which launched Japan's first satellite in 1970 after several years of failed attempts.  Lambda came from a long line of sounding rockets that sprang from early "Pencil" rocket efforts that were to my knowledge always non-military, as required by treaty at the end of WW II.  Here's a nice history.  http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/japan_s_history/detail.shtml

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 10/10/2013 02:05 am by edkyle99 »

Offline Danderman

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #7 on: 10/10/2013 04:17 am »
Funny thing about the Vanguard Able second stage. It was powered by the AJ-10. The same engine that powered the Titan's Transtage, the Apollo Service Module, The Able upper stage became the Thor/Delta upper stage, the Shuttle OMS engines, and I believe was chosen for NASA's Orion Capsule... 


Able was derived from the Aerobee sounding rocket.

Offline Danderman

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #8 on: 10/10/2013 04:18 am »
Now look at the german Wasserfall rocket. It was designed as an anti aircraft missile after the A-4 (V-2) had been designed. The Soviet adapted the design into what became known as the SCUD. In the US, the engine actually was redesigned and became the engine for the Viking rocket, then Vanguard's first stage.

Which begs the question as to whether the SCUD was a Soviet knockoff of Viking, which flew at least 4 years before Scud.

I dimly recall that there was a French knockoff, too.
« Last Edit: 10/10/2013 04:19 am by Danderman »

Offline Danderman

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #9 on: 10/10/2013 04:20 am »
Simple example, it was lesson's learned from the A-4 engine lead to the XLR83-NA-1 rocket engines that boosted the Navaho missile to speed. It was from these engines that the engines that powered the Atlas ICBM and Thor IRBM were derived. Thor become Delta, then Delta II. Atlas had a very long life as a satellite launcher, with the final "true" version being the Atlas III.


Somewhere in there you left out the Redstone engine, which was derived from V2, and was intermediate with Navaho.

Offline Zed_Noir

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #10 on: 10/10/2013 04:52 am »
If by launch vehicle, maybe the Falcon 1 in answer to the OP. It's one the few clean sheet designs that I know of.

Offline thydusk666

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #11 on: 10/10/2013 10:02 am »
Oops, forgot Ariane...

Thanks everyone for your great input.

Was the Ariane 1 a clean sheet design?
Also, did the Ariane 3, 4 and 5 SRB strap-ons have a war-related derivative?

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #12 on: 10/10/2013 12:12 pm »
Ariane was the follow-on to the Europa which used a British Blue Streak MRBM first stage. Military technology did influence the design. Thought Ariane 1 was one of the first to be designed from the ground up for launching to GTO. 

All previous GTO rockets where adaptations of existing ICBM/IRBM's with better upper stages.

Most upper stages like Centaur,Agena,and Transtage where designed from the onset for launching satellites. Though most of the people paying the bills for these new upper stages had millitary satellites in mind. Especially Agena.

« Last Edit: 10/10/2013 12:13 pm by kevin-rf »
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Offline zerm

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #13 on: 10/10/2013 12:50 pm »
The answer is...

It depends.

Offline plutogno

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #14 on: 10/10/2013 01:35 pm »
Ariane was the follow-on to the Europa which used a British Blue Streak MRBM first stage. Military technology did influence the design. Thought Ariane 1 was one of the first to be designed from the ground up for launching to GTO. 

The origin of the Ariane solid fuel boosters is an interesting one: they are based on technology developed in Italy for the submarine-launched Alfa missile of the 70s.
The origin of the Alfa itself is still mostly a secret. How Italy managed to develop a relatively large solid-rocket motor without much previous experience is unclear. According to some, there were talks of a Polaris technology transfer during the 60s as a compensation for the US removing the Jupiter missiles from Italy. One or two Italian ships were even modified to carry the Polaris, although they were only used to fire dummies.

Offline Danderman

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #15 on: 10/10/2013 03:37 pm »
Ariane was the follow-on to the Europa which used a British Blue Streak MRBM first stage. Military technology did influence the design. Thought Ariane 1 was one of the first to be designed from the ground up for launching to GTO. 


There doesn't seem to be any technical connection between the Blue Streak based ELDO launcher and the Ariane. Blue Streak used two engines derived from Navaho, whereas Ariane used Viking engines, derived from I don't know.

Offline savuporo

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #16 on: 10/10/2013 03:46 pm »
Lambda came from a long line of sounding rockets that sprang from early "Pencil" rocket efforts that were to my knowledge always non-military, as required by treaty at the end of WW II.  Here's a nice history.  http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/japan_s_history/detail.shtml
I immediately thought "Japan" when non-ICBM heritage was mentioned. Every other space power has had a military solid rocket program and shared some tech with it.
ISAS solid rocketry started from the other end - progressing through L-4S and M-V, arguably now with Epsilon the tech is sufficiently far along that it's directly applicable to an ICBM program..
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Offline Apollo-phill

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #17 on: 10/10/2013 03:48 pm »
What do we describe as a "rocket" ?

 Several dictionaries describe it as follows (this one from Collins dictionary);

rocket
noun
   * a self-propelling device, esp a cylinder containing a mixture of solid explosives, used as a firework, distress signal, line carrier, etc
   *  any vehicle propelled by a rocket engine, esp one used to carry a warhead, spacecraft, etc

So,by this definition those early "rockets" by folk like  Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky, Robert Goddard, Hermann Oberth,von Braun (et al German) ,UK BIS pioneers and Valier probably count :-))



Phill



Offline savuporo

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #18 on: 10/10/2013 04:01 pm »
Well you can go all the way back to Wan Hu but i dont think that was the question - presumably the meaning here was "orbital launcher"
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Offline edkyle99

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Re: First non ICBM-derived rocket?
« Reply #19 on: 10/10/2013 04:21 pm »
Lambda came from a long line of sounding rockets that sprang from early "Pencil" rocket efforts that were to my knowledge always non-military, as required by treaty at the end of WW II.  Here's a nice history.  http://www.isas.jaxa.jp/e/japan_s_history/detail.shtml
I immediately thought "Japan" when non-ICBM heritage was mentioned. Every other space power has had a military solid rocket program and shared some tech with it.
ISAS solid rocketry started from the other end - progressing through L-4S and M-V, arguably now with Epsilon the tech is sufficiently far along that it's directly applicable to an ICBM program..
Except Epsilon is too big for Japan to use as an efficient ICBM.  It is MX (Peacekeeper) size.  Even the U.S. has abandoned missiles that heavy!  Minuteman weighs maybe 40% as much.

 - Ed Kyle
« Last Edit: 10/10/2013 04:25 pm by edkyle99 »

 

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