Author Topic: ESA skinsuit  (Read 8963 times)

Offline Prober

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ESA skinsuit
« on: 01/17/2014 06:28 pm »
Astronaut 'Skinsuit' Could Soothe Zero-G Backaches in Space

nice write-up on this project.

 http://news.yahoo.com/astronaut-39-skinsuit-39-could-soothe-zero-g-112145706.html

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Offline bolun

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Offline R7

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #2 on: 01/19/2014 04:40 pm »
At first a bit disappointed that it wasn't about actual Webb suits, but bolun's link opened my eyes to the benefits of this project.

I, for one, welcome our new skinsuited overlords!
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Offline Dalhousie

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #3 on: 01/20/2014 01:22 am »
At first a bit disappointed that it wasn't about actual Webb suits, but bolun's link opened my eyes to the benefits of this project.

Basically same people are working on both IVA and EVA suits
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Borklund

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #4 on: 01/21/2014 09:24 pm »
Thanks for posting this!

Offline RanulfC

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #5 on: 01/23/2014 08:43 pm »
At first a bit disappointed that it wasn't about actual Webb suits, but bolun's link opened my eyes to the benefits of this project.

Basically same people are working on both IVA and EVA suits

Doesn't seem that way this is ONLY an IVA suit. This seems aimed at a specific area of controlling the effects of microgravity and not at all for use for EVA or vacuum. Benefits? Sure, lots of them but its not going to help get the MCP suits out of the lab.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
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Offline Borklund

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #6 on: 01/24/2014 12:15 am »
At first a bit disappointed that it wasn't about actual Webb suits, but bolun's link opened my eyes to the benefits of this project.

Basically same people are working on both IVA and EVA suits

Doesn't seem that way this is ONLY an IVA suit. This seems aimed at a specific area of controlling the effects of microgravity and not at all for use for EVA or vacuum. Benefits? Sure, lots of them but its not going to help get the MCP suits out of the lab.

Randy
Yes, but it's the same principle of exerting pressure onto the body not using an air bladder, isn't it?
« Last Edit: 01/24/2014 12:21 am by Borklund »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #7 on: 01/24/2014 09:17 pm »
At first a bit disappointed that it wasn't about actual Webb suits, but bolun's link opened my eyes to the benefits of this project.

Basically same people are working on both IVA and EVA suits

Doesn't seem that way this is ONLY an IVA suit. This seems aimed at a specific area of controlling the effects of microgravity and not at all for use for EVA or vacuum. Benefits? Sure, lots of them but its not going to help get the MCP suits out of the lab.

Randy

The basic principle is the same, even though the purpose and the forces are different.  It's the first use of MCP technology in space and may reduce the cultural opposition towards it.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline R7

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #8 on: 01/25/2014 02:55 pm »
It's the first use of MCP technology in space and may reduce the cultural opposition towards it.

Is there a cultural opposition towards MCP suits?? Something wrong about better mobility and looking good?
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Offline AJA

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #9 on: 01/25/2014 08:52 pm »
Is anyone aware of any prototyping/development of piezoelectric polymers, integrated to function as the pressure layer in an MCP suit? It seems like an obvious thing to do. Being able to control the counter-pressure exerted in a switch-on, switch-off manner: relaxing it when you need to move and change configuration, and making the suit tense when you're in a relatively stable configuration.

Moreover, I reckon you could also use a piezo-electric material for efficient MMOD shielding. Place one layer which generates a voltage under compression on the outside. If this is hit by something, it produces a voltage. You could connect another layer to this voltage, but after having flipped the alignment. Such that the voltage applied on the inner element tends to cause it to expand.

So the same "soft" material could also potentially serve the functions of the current EVA suit's HUT.
Now that I mention it, how do current MCP designs intend to offer MMOD protection?

Anyway, I unearthed this paper from 2005, but don't recall hearing anything about this technology since then.
The Astronautix page on Bio-suits also mentions Electro-active polymers as technology with potential applications to MCP suits, besides quite a few mid-term futuristic ideas.
« Last Edit: 01/25/2014 08:53 pm by AJA »

Offline AJA

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #10 on: 01/28/2014 06:37 pm »
For all the talk about MCP, today I learnt that cosmonauts have been using a Lower Body Negative Pressure (LBNP) suit - called "Chibis" to get acclimatised to gravity, starting from a few weeks prior to their return to Earth.


This has been used from as far back as Mir!


http://suzymchale.com/ruspace/microgcm.html#devices





That link, quoting ISS on-orbit reports, mentions four 5 minute stints (while the cosmonaut exercised as if he was on a "stepper"), at gradually "more negative" pressures; and says that the intent was to stimulate the Gauer-Henry reflex (presumably differential stimulation of baroreceptors in the upper and lower half of the body), to "trick" the body into thinking it was in a gravitational field.


Maybe MCP isn't needed after all? Or, put a different way, how long would it take for the adverse effects to manifest themselves? Tissue swelling etc.?

Offline RanulfC

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #11 on: 01/28/2014 07:34 pm »
The basic principle is the same, even though the purpose and the forces are different.  It's the first use of MCP technology in space and may reduce the cultural opposition towards it.

I'd agree but it doesn't really address the "cultural" opposition because it simplifies an already "used" system (the negative pressure system) and doesn't address the "bias" which ignores the possible uses of MCP beyond just body conditioning.

Is there a cultural opposition towards MCP suits?? Something wrong about better mobility and looking good?

Apparently there is, yes :) Everytime NASA or the ESA run a "glove" competition MCP designs win, yet there is a serious resistance to actually implementing the technology.

Randy
From The Amazing Catstronaut on the Black Arrow LV:
British physics, old chap. It's undignified to belch flames and effluvia all over the pad, what. A true gentlemen's orbital conveyance lifts itself into the air unostentatiously, with the minimum of spectacle and a modicum of grace. Not like our American cousins' launch vehicles, eh?

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #12 on: 01/29/2014 09:32 am »
For all the talk about MCP, today I learnt that cosmonauts have been using a Lower Body Negative Pressure (LBNP) suit - called "Chibis" to get acclimatised to gravity, starting from a few weeks prior to their return to Earth.


This has been used from as far back as Mir!

That link, quoting ISS on-orbit reports, mentions four 5 minute stints (while the cosmonaut exercised as if he was on a "stepper"), at gradually "more negative" pressures; and says that the intent was to stimulate the Gauer-Henry reflex (presumably differential stimulation of baroreceptors in the upper and lower half of the body), to "trick" the body into thinking it was in a gravitational field.


Maybe MCP isn't needed after all? Or, put a different way, how long would it take for the adverse effects to manifest themselves? Tissue swelling etc.?

Chibis is very different in concept and role to the ESA IVA suit.  Chibis is desinged to counter the pooling of blood in the other part of the body by using negative pressure.

A closer counterpart to the IVA suit would be Penguin, which uses straps and bungees to compress the spine.  The IVA suit should be a vast improvement on this, but of course needs to be tested.

The IVA suit is designed to be worn for several hours a day with minimal impact on mobility.  Unlike Penguin, which provides a uniform compress, the IVA suit provides variable compression.  Almost nothing on the upper body, which suffers little bone density lost and progressive compression down the body, which has progressively greater bone density loss.

Other than being more comfortable than Penguin, the IVA suit has the potential to reduce the number of hours astronauts need to exercise every day.  That's the theory, at any rate.

« Last Edit: 01/29/2014 09:33 am by Dalhousie »
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline AJA

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #13 on: 01/29/2014 06:42 pm »
Yes, but what I was saying is - given that the cosmonaut's lower bodies didn't suffer any swelling, oedema etc. during use (or else they'd have stopped using Chibis) -- do we actually NEED MCP?


How exactly did it work anyway? To not lead to all those problems? Is it perhaps something that happens after adaptation to microgravity? (All the uses have been toward the end of their flights, and not at the beginning). I don't know...skin becoming more rigid or something..?
« Last Edit: 01/29/2014 06:42 pm by AJA »

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: ESA skinsuit
« Reply #14 on: 01/30/2014 09:09 am »
Yes, but what I was saying is - given that the cosmonaut's lower bodies didn't suffer any swelling, oedema etc. during use (or else they'd have stopped using Chibis) -- do we actually NEED MCP?


How exactly did it work anyway? To not lead to all those problems? Is it perhaps something that happens after adaptation to microgravity? (All the uses have been toward the end of their flights, and not at the beginning). I don't know...skin becoming more rigid or something..?

I have explained this already, but here we go again.

The IVA suit is designed to counter bone density loss.

Bone density loss is due to reduced load on the bones.  It is not evenly distributed. The skull, because of the fluid redistribution loads it, actually increases in density. Arms, neck, and shoulders remain the same.  Density decreases downwards through the spine, pelvis and lower limbs. 

The IVA suit uses elastic tension to load the body, with increasing loading from top to bottom.  This is why the suit are long johns.

The Chibis suit is designed to counter fluid redistribution, not counter loss of bone density.   It thus has a different function to the IVA suit. 

The historic counterpart to the IVA suit is  the Penguin suit which uses straps to compress the spine and bungies to load the limbs.  It helps but is uncomfortable and the load is evenly distributed rather than low where it's least needed and highest where it's most.

The IVA suit is far more comfortable, lighter and far more flexible and less cumbersome that Penguin.  It can be worn all the time.

There is video of one of the main researchers and vomit comet work with the IVA suit at the following link.  There is also discussion of the EVA suit as well. http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2843327.htm
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

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