Author Topic: Mars sample return  (Read 33705 times)

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #80 on: 07/24/2018 11:20 pm »
at the cost level necessary, the first mars samples will be the last ones for awhile. 

but we are not all the close to having any at all...maybe 20 years away

I think it is entirely possible within the 2020s. Might take a few years longer, but:

-Mars 2020 is going there to cache samples
-NASA is finally making good technology development progress on the return vehicle technology
-ESA is interested

I think that once Mars 2020 is on the surface collecting samples, the momentum is going to increase. That includes international momentum. NASA can go to ESA and JAXA and say "We have samples right now that are collected and awaiting return. Would you like to look at them? Then join us in a retrieval mission." That's a powerful argument.

Offline vjkane

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #81 on: 07/25/2018 03:13 pm »
I think that once Mars 2020 is on the surface collecting samples, the momentum is going to increase. That includes international momentum. NASA can go to ESA and JAXA and say "We have samples right now that are collected and awaiting return. Would you like to look at them? Then join us in a retrieval mission." That's a powerful argument.
ESA has been interested in working with NASA on a sample return for at least a decade.  There was a formal series of collaborations on studies in the last decade for a potential joint sample return.  That effort was cancelled (by NASA if memory serves me correctly).  Presentations at the recent Berlin sample return conference from ESA presenters make several references to that prior effort.

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #82 on: 07/25/2018 09:35 pm »
I think that once Mars 2020 is on the surface collecting samples, the momentum is going to increase. That includes international momentum. NASA can go to ESA and JAXA and say "We have samples right now that are collected and awaiting return. Would you like to look at them? Then join us in a retrieval mission." That's a powerful argument.
ESA has been interested in working with NASA on a sample return for at least a decade.  There was a formal series of collaborations on studies in the last decade for a potential joint sample return.  That effort was cancelled (by NASA if memory serves me correctly).  Presentations at the recent Berlin sample return conference from ESA presenters make several references to that prior effort.


Yes, they're interested now. But my point is that when NASA is actually collecting the stuff, it will focus everybody's attention a lot more.

Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #83 on: 07/25/2018 09:45 pm »
Yes, they're interested now. But my point is that when NASA is actually collecting the stuff, it will focus everybody's attention a lot more.

Assuming such interest and a 2nd sampling mission desired, do you think they'd repeat the same strategy or attempt to streamline it?  If the rover program is an analogy, in just under 2 decades we went from airbags and Sojourner to skycranes and Curiosity.  Would they try to improve MSR 2.0?  Granted, this is a longshot question...
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Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #84 on: 07/25/2018 09:46 pm »
Also, very recently, there's now the prospect of the Martian South Pole harboring brine lakes.  Assuming planetary protection allows it, would sampling that water become the next priority post-2020/MSR 1.0?
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Offline whitelancer64

Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #85 on: 07/25/2018 10:17 pm »
Also, very recently, there's now the prospect of the Martian South Pole harboring brine lakes.  Assuming planetary protection allows it, would sampling that water become the next priority post-2020/MSR 1.0?

The lake is 1.5 km under the ice cap. So it would need to be a heck of a rover to drill down that far.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #86 on: 07/25/2018 11:08 pm »
Yes, they're interested now. But my point is that when NASA is actually collecting the stuff, it will focus everybody's attention a lot more.

Assuming such interest and a 2nd sampling mission desired, do you think they'd repeat the same strategy or attempt to streamline it?  If the rover program is an analogy, in just under 2 decades we went from airbags and Sojourner to skycranes and Curiosity.  Would they try to improve MSR 2.0?  Granted, this is a longshot question...

What does "streamline" actually mean? They are already pursuing a more focused strategy.

I think that it's too early to say. I think that getting some samples back is going to whet the appetite for more samples. But this is not a cheap mission by any means. It's never going to be cheap. This is really difficult to do, and only a few people (at JPL and Lockheed Martin) even know how to land stuff on Mars, let alone get it off the surface. So the opportunity to make it cheaper is slim.

But NASA has demonstrated that they will re-use proven technology, and so if the MSR technology proves itself, they'll want to use that again if the scientific community tells them to get more samples from a different location.

Offline vjkane

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #87 on: 07/25/2018 11:19 pm »

What does "streamline" actually mean? They are already pursuing a more focused strategy.

There have been proposals for missions that grab the sample from immediately around the lander that carries the Mars Ascent Vehicle (much like the proposed New Frontiers lunar sample return mission).  However, this only works in areas where the bulk composition can answer the questions (as is true for the lunar mission).  Experience on the ground at Mars has shown that the samples desired to focus on questions of biosignatures/life are found in highly localized distributed locations -- hence a major rover mission focused on finding and collecting the right samples.

I suspect that the Chinese Mars sample return mission, should it fly, will follow the collect the samples in the local location.  That still leaves them with the challenge of 1) flying a wonking big MAV that can send the return samples directly to Earth (has been proposed by NASA studies in past decades) or flying separate lander and Mars orbiter/Earth return spacecraft.

Offline ncb1397

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #88 on: 07/26/2018 12:45 am »
Yes, they're interested now. But my point is that when NASA is actually collecting the stuff, it will focus everybody's attention a lot more.

Assuming such interest and a 2nd sampling mission desired, do you think they'd repeat the same strategy or attempt to streamline it?  If the rover program is an analogy, in just under 2 decades we went from airbags and Sojourner to skycranes and Curiosity.  Would they try to improve MSR 2.0?  Granted, this is a longshot question...

What does "streamline" actually mean? They are already pursuing a more focused strategy.


Probably something like this:



MAV is about 3 meters like those posted up thread, mounted to a modified third MSL platform. Obviously inspired by road mobile ICBMs. Further streamlining would be adding 2 km/s to the MAV so you don't even need the orbiter and it just does direct to earth.

But the current plan involving a rover and orbiter probably satisfies the "rover" people and the "orbiter" people that don't want sample return eating their lunch. It gets them on board with sample return.
« Last Edit: 07/26/2018 01:32 am by ncb1397 »

Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #89 on: 07/26/2018 02:22 am »
Probably something like this:

Pfffffttttt!

Not. A. Real. Concept.

Do you really want to be bouncing your return vehicle around on a rover?

No.

Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #90 on: 07/26/2018 04:31 am »
Yes, they're interested now. But my point is that when NASA is actually collecting the stuff, it will focus everybody's attention a lot more.

Assuming such interest and a 2nd sampling mission desired, do you think they'd repeat the same strategy or attempt to streamline it?  If the rover program is an analogy, in just under 2 decades we went from airbags and Sojourner to skycranes and Curiosity.  Would they try to improve MSR 2.0?  Granted, this is a longshot question...

What does "streamline" actually mean? They are already pursuing a more focused strategy.

Instead of 2 rovers, a lander/MAV, and an orbiter/ERV, say either a MAV and ERV or a direct return setup?  Each of these pieces of equipment runs a billion a piece sometimes.  I'm sure you'd heard Zubrin squawk about direct return heavily.  At the least reduce the number down to 2.

Considering the lake is underground, a stationary drilling lander would be more useful if you want either the water or ice close to it.  Unless you want complementary surface samples, a rover in this lake situation is unnecessary.
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #91 on: 07/26/2018 01:35 pm »
I'm sure you'd heard Zubrin squawk about direct return heavily. 

Zubrin has no involvement/influence in Mars programs. The people who are involved in Mars programs work at JPL, Lockheed Martin, NASA HQ, and universities and research centers.

Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #92 on: 07/26/2018 04:37 pm »
Zubrin has no involvement/influence in Mars programs.

An inconvenient truth that some amateur Mars-first fanatics don't seem to grok.

(Like the person who spammed the 2009 Augustine Commission public meeting location in DC with the "Mars Direct Cowards Return to the Moon" placards.)
http://thespacereview.com/article/1435/1
« Last Edit: 07/26/2018 04:38 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #93 on: 07/26/2018 06:07 pm »
I forgot about that. I wonder if I still have that placard? (After all, I took the photo.)

Zubrin's really more of an entertainer. He doesn't have influence. The things he has said and done in the past, and his general demeanor, have limited his ability to have influence. He's dismissed the space medicine community by saying that their research stems from Nazi experiments. Why would any medical research expert listen to him after that? He's said similar inflammatory things about various aspects of space engineering. And he's said some really nutty things about NASA management. After all that, nobody who controls budgets or policies wants to listen to him.

Bringing this a bit back on topic, I think I've read some of his comments, or heard them, about Mars sample return. He is dismissive of it. He does not think it is necessary. He's never really embraced the idea of precursor missions to scout out landing sites, determine the conditions at Mars, identify resources, etc. His attitude has always been "Let's just go!" which is great for rallying crowds of Mars enthusiasts, but for a human space program it's a bit like heading out into a desert before checking to see if you have enough water.

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #94 on: 07/26/2018 11:36 pm »
I forgot about that. I wonder if I still have that placard? (After all, I took the photo.)

Zubrin's really more of an entertainer. He doesn't have influence. The things he has said and done in the past, and his general demeanor, have limited his ability to have influence. He's dismissed the space medicine community by saying that their research stems from Nazi experiments. Why would any medical research expert listen to him after that? He's said similar inflammatory things about various aspects of space engineering. And he's said some really nutty things about NASA management. After all that, nobody who controls budgets or policies wants to listen to him.

Bringing this a bit back on topic, I think I've read some of his comments, or heard them, about Mars sample return. He is dismissive of it. He does not think it is necessary. He's never really embraced the idea of precursor missions to scout out landing sites, determine the conditions at Mars, identify resources, etc. His attitude has always been "Let's just go!" which is great for rallying crowds of Mars enthusiasts, but for a human space program it's a bit like heading out into a desert before checking to see if you have enough water.

Zubrin is very entertaining but to discuss him as just an entertainer is wrong.  He has been highly influential thinker, a published researcher, and a very innovative engineer.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline Dalhousie

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #95 on: 07/26/2018 11:38 pm »
Also, very recently, there's now the prospect of the Martian South Pole harboring brine lakes.  Assuming planetary protection allows it, would sampling that water become the next priority post-2020/MSR 1.0?

The lake is 1.5 km under the ice cap. So it would need to be a heck of a rover to drill down that far.

You would need more than a rover.  You would need a large surface station operating for years.
Apologies in advance for any lack of civility - it's unintended

Offline redliox

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #96 on: 11/19/2018 04:21 pm »
The decision made: Jezero Crater will be where MSR happens.
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Offline zubenelgenubi

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #97 on: 03/12/2019 06:13 pm »
Belated post; follow-on posts up-thread:
ESA and NASA to Investigate Bringing Martian Soil to Earth, dated April 26, 2018


ESA and NASA signed a statement of intent today to explore concepts for missions to bring samples of martian soil to Earth.

Spacecraft in orbit and on Mars’s surface have made many exciting discoveries, transforming our understanding of the planet and unveiling clues to the formation of our Solar System, as well as helping us understand our home planet. The next step is to bring samples to Earth for detailed analysis in sophisticated laboratories where results can be verified independently and samples can be reanalysed as laboratory techniques continue to improve.

Mars on Earth
Bringing Mars to Earth is no simple undertaking—it would require at least three missions from Earth and one never-been-done-before rocket launch from Mars.

A first mission, NASA’s 2020 Mars Rover, is set to collect surface samples in pen-sized canisters as it explores the Red Planet. Up to 31 canisters will be filled and readied for a later pickup – geocaching gone interplanetary.

In the same period, ESA’s ExoMars rover, which is also set to land on Mars in 2021, will be drilling up to two meters below the surface to search for evidence of life.

A second mission with a small fetch rover would land nearby and retrieve the samples in a martian search-and-rescue operation. This rover would bring the samples back to its lander and place them in a Mars Ascent Vehicle – a small rocket to launch the football-sized container into Mars orbit.

A third launch from Earth would provide a spacecraft sent to orbit Mars and rendezvous with the sample containers. Once the samples are safely collected and loaded into an Earth entry vehicle, the spacecraft would return to Earth, release the vehicle to land in the United States, where the samples will be retrieved and placed in quarantine for detailed analysis by a team of international scientists.

Studying Concepts
The statement signed today at the ILA Berlin air show by ESA’s Director of Human and Robotic Exploration, David Parker, and NASA’s Associate Administrator for the Science Mission Directorate, Thomas Zurbuchen, outlines the potential roles each space agency could fulfil and how they can offer mutual support.

David says: “A Mars sample return mission is a tantalising but achievable vision that lies at the intersection of many good reasons to explore space.

“There is no question that for a planetary scientist, the chance to bring pristine, carefully chosen samples of the Red Planet back to Earth for examination using the best facilities is a mouth-watering prospect. Reconstructing the history of Mars and answering questions of its past are only two areas of discovery that will be dramatically advanced by such a mission.

“The challenges of going to Mars and back demand that they are addressed by an international and commercial partnership – the best of the best. At ESA, with our 22 member states and further cooperating partners, international cooperation is part of our DNA.”

“Previous Mars missions revealed ancient streambeds and the right chemistry that could have supported microbial life on the Red Planet,” said Thomas, “a sample would provide a critical leap forward in our understanding of Mars’s potential to harbour life.

“I look forward to connecting and collaborating with international and commercial partners on tackling the exciting technological challenges ahead—that would allow us to bring home a sample of Mars.”

The results of the mission studies will be presented at ESA’s council at ministerial level in 2019 for a decision to continue developing these missions.

Infrastructure in Place
ESA’s ExoMars orbiter is already circling Mars to investigate its atmosphere. This week it transmitted data from NASA’s Curiosity rover to Earth, proving its worth as a relay satellite as well. This collaboration demonstrates good cooperation with NASA and provides an essential communications infrastructure around the Red Planet.

Findings from the ExoMars rover mission may help decide which samples to store and bring to Earth during the Mars sample return mission.
« Last Edit: 03/12/2019 06:33 pm by zubenelgenubi »
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Offline Blackstar

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #98 on: 03/12/2019 07:15 pm »
Belated post; follow-on posts up-thread:
ESA and NASA to Investigate Bringing Martian Soil to Earth, dated April 26, 2018


ESA and NASA signed a statement of intent today to explore concepts for missions to bring samples of martian soil to Earth.


I'd note that we've heard almost nothing about this since then. I don't necessarily think that's a bad sign, but it does raise the question of what has been going on behind closed doors.

Offline vjkane

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Re: Mars sample return
« Reply #99 on: 03/12/2019 07:35 pm »
Reported FY20 MSR funding is $190M.  Seems enough to do some serious mission definition and technology advancement.  I think there was $50M in FY19.

The key is whether or not MSR is proposed as a new start or the money is simply in a technology fund.  The former, if approved by Congress, makes it a formal project; the latter leaves it as a goal for future approval.

Tags: Mars 
 

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