Maybe that's what we should do, I don't think it's what would happen.
Quote from: aero on 06/23/2012 02:35 pmMaybe that's what we should do, I don't think it's what would happen.I initially took your remark at face value, considering our current political ... ...Your tentative vision of the future could come to pass, I suppose, but you don't have to worry that Mars will be overrun by people anytime soon. ...That's about all I'll speculate on.
If life was discovered in fossilized form, the morphology would then be associated to 'something' on Earth.
The coupling with Earth native creatures would be established and every sample of that Earth creature would be tested until its extinction in 100 years.
Then, somebody is going to have to explain how that creature evolved in such a rapid way in a Pre-Noahcian era on Mars.
During this time frame, nothing is known to have existed on Earth in microbial form.
So it would be a substantial blow to the theory of evolution.
The origin would be the next topic to determine, which I would claim could only be substantiated using a time machine.
Those people from the TV show Ancient Aliens will be dancing in the streets telling everyone 'I told you so'.
Unfortunately I fear that if something is found that is microbial and living, this would become the next biggest thing in military research. Mars would be owned by the military/united nations in 5 years maximum.
I think there are more important things to research under NASA in the trans nepunian domain.
If there ever is a Mars mission. That would be the last.
This manned ring station is about as close as well potentially see in our lifetime. Don't think going to the surface is a wise idea.
I think this is a hot topic. 1) If life was discovered in fossilized form, the morphology would then be associated to 'something' on Earth. 2) The coupling with Earth native creatures would be established and every sample of that Earth creature would be tested until its extinction in 100 years.3) Then, somebody is going to have to explain how that creature evolved in such a rapid way in a Pre-Noahcian era on Mars. During this time frame, nothing is known to have existed on Earth in microbial form. So it would be a substantial blow to the theory of evolution. The origin would be the next topic to determine, which I would claim could only be substantiated using a time machine.4) Those people from the TV show Ancient Aliens will be dancing in the streets telling everyone 'I told you so'. 5) Unfortunately I fear that if something is found that is microbial and living, this would become the next biggest thing in military research. Mars would be owned by the military/united nations in 5 years maximum.6) I think there are more important things to research under NASA in the trans nepunian [gotta be neptunian, right?] domain. If there ever is a Mars mission. That would be the last.7) This manned ring station is about as close as well potentially see in our lifetime. Don't think going to the surface is a wise idea.
What if we found a variety of fossilized bones of large and small life forms on Mars? Would we study them or decide they proved that microbial life must still exist somewhere on or in Mars, and ban further investigation?Or would we decide that dominant life forms were extinct therefore Mars is a dead world available to us for the taking?
Wow, that's nice, Phill!
... Trans nepunian research is providing ACTUAL evidence for a potential discovery.
Well to me, if you can show that a life form was capable of evolving almost one to five orders of magnitude faster than what may have happened on Earth.... you have a problem. Because if one species has gained full technological capabilities several millions of years earlier than the other... you cannot simply argue away intelligent design.
Quote from: Dalhousie on 06/24/2012 09:41 pmWhy would such a discovery led to a banning of further investigations?Dalhousie...You must read the techinque called the five whys by Toyoda. It not only answers some of the problem, but also provides a solution. Here is a Wikipedia link in a language that you can more easily understand: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Why's
Why would such a discovery led to a banning of further investigations?
Now. What evidence in the universe would be a blow to the 'theory' of evolution. Apparently most of the evolutionists believe their theory is absolute. All evidence must is held guilty until proven innocent. Pretty much like a Klingon court of law.
Well to me, if you can show that a life form was capable of evolving almost one to five orders of magnitude faster than what may have happened on Earth.... you have a problem.
Because if one species has gained full technological capabilities several millions of years earlier than the other... you cannot simply argue away intelligent design.
Trans nepunian research is providing ACTUAL evidence for a potential discovery. The search for life on Mars is only a 'snipe' hunt. Actual evidence trumps wishful thinking everytime (except when you are being tried in a Klingon court).
If evidence of life Mars were discovered ... there will be an OMG moment...
...this oil on canvas painting ...
Quote from: cosmicvoid on 06/26/2012 07:35 amQuote from: Mr. Scott on 06/26/2012 12:51 am... Trans nepunian research is providing ACTUAL evidence for a potential discovery.This sounds like a lot of armwaving. What actual evidence are you referring to?Just hit TNO or trans neptunian object into Google News. Here is what I got that was hot off the press as of eight hours ago:http://www.planetary.org/blogs/emily-lakdawalla/2012/06261021-salacia.htmlA month ago, a presentation was given about orbital variations of Sedna. The conclusion was something bigger than Earth past our solar system. Will find that link later....
Quote from: Mr. Scott on 06/26/2012 12:51 am... Trans nepunian research is providing ACTUAL evidence for a potential discovery.This sounds like a lot of armwaving. What actual evidence are you referring to?
So to the thread. There hasn't been even a hint of life, habitability or the actual discovery of accessible resources such as water on Mars since we've landed in 1976.
This would be like saying.... We need to go find a pink elephant in the zoo. Has anyone seen the pink elephant? No, but we're going to keep looking because that is 'science'.
Trans Neptunian research is providing ACTUAL evidence for a potential discovery. The search for life on Mars is only a 'snipe' hunt. Actual evidence trumps wishful thinking everytime (except when you are being tried in a Klingon court).
The ensemble of binary-TNO densities suggests a trend of increasing density with size, with objects smaller than 400 km diameter all having densities less than 1 g/cm3, and those with diameters greater than 800 km all having densities greater than 1 g/cm3. If the eccentricity of the binary orbit of (42355) Typhon-Echidna is not due to recent perturbations, considerations of tidal evolution suggest that (42355) Typhon-Echidna must have a rigidity close to that of solid water ice, otherwise the orbital eccentricity of the system would have been damped by now.
Abstract. Sedna is the first inner Oort cloud object to be discovered. Its dynamical origin remains unclear, and a possible mechanism is considered here. We investigate the parameter space of a hypothetical solar companion which could adiabatically detach the perihelion of a Neptune dominated TNO with a Sedna-like semimajor axis. Demanding that the TNO'smaximum value of osculating perihelion exceed Sedna's observed value of 76 AU, we fnd that the companion's mass and orbital parameters ... are restricted to [a huge equation] during the epoch of strongest perturbations. The ecliptic inclination of the companion should be in the range 45o <= 135o if the TNO is to retain a small inclination while its perihelion is increased. We also consider the circumstances where the minimum value of osculating perihelion would pass the object to the dynamical dominance of Saturn and Jupiter, if allowed. ...If the same hypothetical object is responsible for both observations, then it is likely recorded in the IRAS and possibly the 2MASS databases. ...The only options which they find to give satisfactory results are the passage of a low-velocity solar-mass star at about 800 AU during the early solar environment, or the capture of extrasolar planetesimals from a low-mass star or brown dwarf encountering the Sun. They observe that creating these "extended scattered disk objects" ... requires a perturbation "from the outside", but do not discuss the possibility that the external perturbation could come from a planetary-mass wide-binary solar companion. We consider that option here. Our goal is to limit the possible parameter space of a hypothetical solar companion which would be capable of detaching the orbit of an STNO from the dominance of Neptune. We further compare it to the parameter space of a hypothetical companion that has previously been suggested by an analysis of an overpopulated band of new Oort cloud comets with an anomalous distribution of orbital elements ...
A key phrase to keep in mind in any 5 Why exercise is "people do not fail, processes do".
To me the TNO folks are bringing the results. Mars exploration programs haven't found anything. Ok perchlorates, so what. Nobody really thinks that this can be used as a precursor to fertilizer to grow crops on Mars.
Think of all this like the way we think of the Viking explorers who arrived before Columbus. They came to the Northern American region, found a few rocks, arrived upon a glistening lfresh water ake that was inland somewhere. The Viking captain probably found a tree that was good for fuel. So when the news was brought back to their scandanavian home... NOBODY COULD GIVE A RATS DOODALIEFOO WHAT THEY FOUND! The trip was probably worth telling for no more that two to five years.
500 years from now people will talk about disoveries out past Sedna/Neptune.
I kind of have a hunch that 500 years from now, people will likely not remember or care that we went to the Moon or Mars as much as we did. I'd believe Armstrong and Aldrin will be remembered. Most of the Mars missions will be completely forgotten even if there is a microbe found.
Quote But, if ya don't mind my askin', What was the point of that comment? To me the TNO folks are bringing the results.
But, if ya don't mind my askin', What was the point of that comment?
Again you assumption that only the discovery of life is important.
Quote from: Dalhousie on 06/28/2012 01:37 amAgain you assumption that only the discovery of life is important. I don't quite understand why you don't assumption that the discovery of life is important.
Quote from: Dalhousie on 06/28/2012 09:20 pmQuote from: JohnFornaro on 06/28/2012 11:55 amQuote from: Dalhousie on 06/28/2012 01:37 amAgain you assumption that only the discovery of life is important. I don't quite understand why you don't assumption that the discovery of life is important.This makes no obvious sense.Are you saying I don't think that the discovery of life is important? Because I certainly would think it a very important discovery.Here is my final $1.50 for this thread. The discovery of microbial life IS NOT IMPORTANT of Mars and here's why....I'll give you a pass here for the moment. MSL does everything perfect. It lands, it rolls around and discovers everything it was supposed to and more for a mere $2.5 billion.Now, you then have to start characterizing how the microbes continue to live and grow. So take whatever statement is discovered and stand on the corner on main street in your home town and just yell it out at the top of your lungs. Ok here you go, so you should say... "AFTER 37 YEARS, I JUST DISCOVERED MICROBIAL LIFE ON MARS AND IT CONTINUES TO GROW THROUGH SELF REPLICATION AND ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION, AND IT ONLY COST US FIVE BILLION TO FIGURE IT OUT"Under normal situations, most people would just think your nuts and keep walking.People did this when we landed on the moon... Certainly that was news to be yelled out.
Quote from: JohnFornaro on 06/28/2012 11:55 amQuote from: Dalhousie on 06/28/2012 01:37 amAgain you assumption that only the discovery of life is important. I don't quite understand why you don't assumption that the discovery of life is important.This makes no obvious sense.Are you saying I don't think that the discovery of life is important? Because I certainly would think it a very important discovery.
"AFTER 37 YEARS, I JUST DISCOVERED MICROBIAL LIFE ON MARS AND IT CONTINUES TO GROW THROUGH SELF REPLICATION AND ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION, AND IT ONLY COST US FIVE BILLION TO FIGURE IT OUT"
Ok here you go, so you should say... "AFTER 37 YEARS, I JUST DISCOVERED MICROBIAL LIFE ON MARS AND IT CONTINUES TO GROW THROUGH SELF REPLICATION AND ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION, AND IT ONLY COST US FIVE BILLION TO FIGURE IT OUT"
Quote from: Mr. Scott on 06/29/2012 02:50 amOk here you go, so you should say... "AFTER 37 YEARS, I JUST DISCOVERED MICROBIAL LIFE ON MARS AND IT CONTINUES TO GROW THROUGH SELF REPLICATION AND ASEXUAL REPRODUCTION, AND IT ONLY COST US FIVE BILLION TO FIGURE IT OUT"I would say: "After 10.000 years of civilization, we have realized that Earth is not the center of the universe, that life can spawn elsewhere and that most religious simple explanations to the creation of the world are just fiction created for simple minds."I think it is worth $5B.
Well good. I have stated several times here on the forum the high level of importance that I would attribute to the discovery of life on another planet. However, it was you who said that I "assumption that only the discovery of life is important". I have not deviated from my voiced opinion that the discovery of life is of high importance. The word "high" is not the equivalent of the word "only".
You seem to be arguing for the sake of argument, and the evidence for that is the word substitution you just made.
I would say: "After 10.000 years of civilization, we have realized that Earth is not the center of the universe, that life can spawn elsewhere and that most religious simple explanations to the creation of the world are just fiction created for simple minds."I think it is worth $5B.
No if you look at the Drake Equation (see post below), which is an agnostic analysis, my conclusion is that life on Earth was truly way beyond luck. In most business case analyses, if you took the amount of money it takes to accomplish an objective and a reasonable estimate at the probability to succeed at one trial... you get an expected cost to succeed. $5B / 8x10^-20 = crazy!
The evidence I look at... In 2010, a large boat was found with crocodile remains on top of a mountain at an elevation of 4000m in Turkey. Carbon dating is at 4800 years. How do mountain climbing crocodiles get accounted for in the theory of evolution?Perhaps I'm thinking too simplistcally?