Author Topic: Saving LM-4 Snoopy  (Read 8536 times)

Offline gdelottle

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Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« on: 11/28/2022 02:32 pm »
As you know there are strong indications that the Apollo 10 mission ascension Lunar Module LM-4, nicknamed "Snoopy," is currently in heliocentric orbit about 65 million km away from Earth. This LM is the only one survived to an actual space mission and it is of immense historical importance to both the U.S. and the rest of the world. It would also be of paramount importance to check what condition it is in after several decades in deep space.  This is why I believe it would be crucial to start promoting a series of actions aimed at:

1) ascertain its true nature and conditions
2) return it to earth orbit while waiting for technology and funding to allow it to be returned to Earth (or maybe to the Moon??).

With the recent drop in costs in the field it may have become possible to design a low-cost first investigative mission re:point one.

To your knowledge, are there any efforts in this regard, perhaps a feasibility study that takes advantage of the (potential) probe's projected 5 million km approach to Earth expected by 2037? And if it doesn't exist, couldn't we enthusiasts in the field take the initiative to promote it?
« Last Edit: 11/28/2022 02:34 pm by gdelottle »

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #1 on: 11/28/2022 02:53 pm »
First, the only vehicle even remotely capable of returning it to Earth (intact anyway) would be Starship. 

Secondly, all objects launched into space remain the property of those who launched them, per the Outer Space Treaty.  Therefore, LM-4 is the property of NASA and nobody could decide to just grab it on their own. They would need the full permission and cooperation of NASA, both to go to it and to get the specs of the LM, sufficient to design hardware to capture and secure it for the return to Earth. This would all be very specialized, one-off hardware with no other use.

Finally, we don't know its current condition. If it is tumbling, it will be very difficult or perhaps impossible to capture. If it is damaged, it may not be structurally sound enough to secure. If it still contains fuel or oxidizer, it would be very hazardous to handle.

The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline edzieba

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #2 on: 11/28/2022 03:25 pm »
Depending on the delta V required, NG could manufacture one additional MEV for returning it to Earth orbit, or at least a capture orbit somewhere in cislunar space to prevent it drifting away around the Sun again.

Offline leovinus

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #4 on: 11/28/2022 03:53 pm »
First, the only vehicle even remotely capable of returning it to Earth (intact anyway) would be Starship. 

Secondly, all objects launched into space remain the property of those who launched them, per the Outer Space Treaty.  Therefore, LM-4 is the property of NASA and nobody could decide to just grab it on their own. They would need the full permission and cooperation of NASA, both to go to it and to get the specs of the LM, sufficient to design hardware to capture and secure it for the return to Earth. This would all be very specialized, one-off hardware with no other use.

Finally, we don't know its current condition. If it is tumbling, it will be very difficult or perhaps impossible to capture. If it is damaged, it may not be structurally sound enough to secure. If it still contains fuel or oxidizer, it would be very hazardous to handle.

The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.
based on these constraints, maybe send  mission consisting of one crewed Starship and one general-purpose cargo starship with small cargo of general-purpose teleoperated robots and their tools. Crew stays in their ship and stays a safe 1 km distance away while assessing the situation. Deploy a general-purpose stabilizer system (a big net with a bunch of small cushiioned thrusters ) that gets itself wraped around the tumbling target. Carefully fire the appropriate thrusters to cancel the tumbling. While still at the 1km distance, use teleoperated drills to de-fuel the target. disarm and discard the anti-tumble thrusters. Now approach closer as desired. Build a cage around the target using a generic rod-and-clamp system, and clamp the cage to the target. Maneuver the cargo starship to engulf the target and cage in the cargo hold. Now use ropes to lash the cage very securely to the target and very securely into the cargo hold: this may require EVA, since this is the system that must EDL.

It's not clear that the result justifies the cost. This scenario is presented specifically and only to respond to the specific issues you raised.

Offline gdelottle

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #5 on: 11/28/2022 08:46 pm »
Being 2018 AV2 (the LM-4 candidate object name) on a coplanar orbit to Earth with a slightly shorter period (382 days) a mission aiming to point (1) in my list shouldn't be that difficult, assuming a pretty long mission time. In the end, it is something quite similar to what has been done with Spitzer, the STEREO missions or any other Earth-Displaced Heliocentric Orbits (EDHO).

Point (2) is much more complicated, but still feasible IMO with an automated probe if worth the prize.
« Last Edit: 11/28/2022 08:49 pm by gdelottle »

Offline sdsds

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #6 on: 11/28/2022 11:10 pm »
It's certainly a fun thought experiment. Sending a robotic spacecraft to rendezvous and perform proximity operations around the Apollo 10 ascent stage would get plenty of public interest, assuming good quality imagery was sent back to Earth.

With Snoopy as the target, how small could the chaser rendezvous spacecraft be? A 6U cubesat? Which small launch service provider would be interesting in demonstrating the capability to launch that kind of mission on an Earth-escape trajectory?
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Offline laszlo

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #7 on: 11/29/2022 12:02 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

As far as the practicalities:

Funding - one of the crowd-source funding sites for at least the preliminaries like orbit determination, initial reconnaissance, legal fees, etc.
Permission - change.org to get a petition going for the US government to at least agree to allow the attempt and some form of monetization (video, book, etc.)
Tech info - create an archive of all the public (non-ITAR) info still available. The NASM is probably a good resource, especially as they have just recently refurbished their LM (not exactly a flight model, but probably close enough). Also a good source would be any records of STS-49 and STS-51a, the satellite rescue missions. This website and its stable of experts would be a good resource.
Media tie-ins - Get started working a deal with Netflix or Amazon. Start a PR campaign with major media outlets to promote and publicize the mission.

It just occurred to me that the initial scouting might be accomplished with an Orion mission which could further pique NASA's interest.

There's a lot more, of course, but this could be the kind of mission that captures enough of the public imagination to make it possible. Think of the heartrending appeal of poor little Snoopy lost for half a century realizing that his owners are finally trying to bring him home. Unable to do anything himself, he just has to hang on, knowing that his people are coming to get him and put him into his forever home at the NASM. If done quickly enough, we may even see General Stafford virtually touring his old ship.

If you're going to do this, don't forget the licensing clearances for Snoopy mascots, a model kit representing the spacecraft as found, and other toy tie-ins.

Done right, this could actually be a viable project. It'd be like the retrieval of Liberty Bell 7, but with the added feature of a beloved cartoon dog as the mascot, tying into the ever-popular lost dog being reunited with his family theme. If someone actually does all this, put my name somewhere in the credits and buy me a good dark beer.




Offline edzieba

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #8 on: 11/29/2022 12:31 pm »
If 2018 AV2 does indeed turn out to be LM-4, then the recent well-distributed Orion photo with the caption:
Quote
Nov. 28, 2022) On flight day 13, Orion reached its maximum distance from Earth during the Artemis I mission when it was 268,563 miles away from our home planet. Orion has now traveled farther than any other spacecraft built for humans
may need to be revised.

Offline gdelottle

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #9 on: 11/29/2022 12:35 pm »
If 2018 AV2 does indeed turn out to be LM-4, then the recent well-distributed Orion photo with the caption:
Quote
Nov. 28, 2022) On flight day 13, Orion reached its maximum distance from Earth during the Artemis I mission when it was 268,563 miles away from our home planet. Orion has now traveled farther than any other spacecraft built for humans
may need to be revised.

that's why they sometime added "and return":

https://twitter.com/esa/status/1596557663302979585?s=20&t=II2SDnKVmF1FdrFiYBxTSw
« Last Edit: 11/29/2022 12:37 pm by gdelottle »

Offline gdelottle

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #10 on: 11/29/2022 03:23 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

I hope I haven't misinterpreted but I see the classic approach to declare that:

1) it is impossible
2) it's a waste of time
3) they have already thought about it
....then, the day someone does it:
4) already thought of it!

I personally believe that this is rather a fundamental piece of recent human history that should be saved for posterity. I understand this is not the common feeling and so I withdraw in an orderly fashion :)
« Last Edit: 11/29/2022 03:32 pm by gdelottle »

Offline kevin-rf

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #11 on: 12/01/2022 10:43 am »
Don't forget the hypergolic residuals complicating any "manned" retrieval.
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Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #12 on: 12/01/2022 02:33 pm »
The Apollo docking system on Apollo-10 was pyrotechnically jettisoned as a test objective while docked to LM-4 so note that you will not be docking with the ascent module.
I'll add this video on this topic as it is not a new idea:


Offline whitelancer64

Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #13 on: 12/01/2022 04:25 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

As far as the practicalities:

Funding - one of the crowd-source funding sites for at least the preliminaries like orbit determination, initial reconnaissance, legal fees, etc.
*snip*

I'm not aware of ANY successfully crowd-funded major space mission. All of the high profile ones have failed, and failed badly, like Mars One and the B612 Foundation's Sentinel Space Telescope. I am aware of dozens of other smaller, yet still failed efforts.

This concept fails at first look on this point alone.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #14 on: 12/01/2022 04:37 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

I hope I haven't misinterpreted but I see the classic approach to declare that:

1) it is impossible
2) it's a waste of time
3) they have already thought about it
....then, the day someone does it:
4) already thought of it!

I personally believe that this is rather a fundamental piece of recent human history that should be saved for posterity. I understand this is not the common feeling and so I withdraw in an orderly fashion :)

It's not impossible, but it may very well be a waste of time, especially if LM-4 is tumbling or is otherwise unfit to be captured. There would be significant tangible benefits to bringing back some or all of it, particularly for deep space exposure to materials science. It may not be worth the expense, being a complex and potentially very difficult task. It would be much easier, but also significantly more expensive, to recover parts of the Apollo landers on the Moon.

Any of this would ultimately come down to NASA support and funding.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline Robert_the_Doll

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #15 on: 12/01/2022 08:52 pm »
Quote from: russianhalo117
The Apollo docking system on Apollo-10 was pyrotechnically jettisoned as a test objective while docked to LM-4 so note that you will not be docking with the ascent module.

Lack of a docking mechanism has not stopped anyone from docking with another spacecraft before:

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #16 on: 12/01/2022 09:31 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

As far as the practicalities:

Funding - one of the crowd-source funding sites for at least the preliminaries like orbit determination, initial reconnaissance, legal fees, etc.
*snip*

I'm not aware of ANY successfully crowd-funded major space mission. All of the high profile ones have failed, and failed badly, like Mars One and the B612 Foundation's Sentinel Space Telescope. I am aware of dozens of other smaller, yet still failed efforts.

This concept fails at first look on this point alone.
There was the ISEE-3 project which succeeded in reactivating the spacecraft checking out the dormant instruments, pressurising the propulsion system only not to have the main engine fire due to onboard valve failure preventing ignition whereas the rest of the propulsion system functioned normally during spacecraft spin up for the burn and for attitude control. The spacecraft was placed in safe mode and a few years a follow on project started talks with Maxar and others about developing a spacecraft to capture and berth to replace the current and future non working parts of the propulsion system ahead of its next favourable Earth Moon encounter. The alternative was to try to turn on ISEE-1 and/or 2 however the Arecibo Observatory was the projects sole ground station for reactivation attempts. Normal operations after activation would use DSN or other deep space capable networks.

Offline whitelancer64

Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #17 on: 12/02/2022 06:01 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

As far as the practicalities:

Funding - one of the crowd-source funding sites for at least the preliminaries like orbit determination, initial reconnaissance, legal fees, etc.
*snip*

I'm not aware of ANY successfully crowd-funded major space mission. All of the high profile ones have failed, and failed badly, like Mars One and the B612 Foundation's Sentinel Space Telescope. I am aware of dozens of other smaller, yet still failed efforts.

This concept fails at first look on this point alone.
There was the ISEE-3 project which succeeded in reactivating the spacecraft checking out the dormant instruments, pressurising the propulsion system only not to have the main engine fire due to onboard valve failure preventing ignition whereas the rest of the propulsion system functioned normally during spacecraft spin up for the burn and for attitude control. The spacecraft was placed in safe mode and a few years a follow on project started talks with Maxar and others about developing a spacecraft to capture and berth to replace the current and future non working parts of the propulsion system ahead of its next favourable Earth Moon encounter. The alternative was to try to turn on ISEE-1 and/or 2 however the Arecibo Observatory was the projects sole ground station for reactivation attempts. Normal operations after activation would use DSN or other deep space capable networks.

That didn't involve launching anything into space, which is a huge difference. The attempt to recover ISEE-3 raised about $160,000 which is a VERY far cry from the tens of millions that would need to be raised to pull off the recovery of LM-4.
"One bit of advice: it is important to view knowledge as sort of a semantic tree -- make sure you understand the fundamental principles, ie the trunk and big branches, before you get into the leaves/details or there is nothing for them to hang on to." - Elon Musk
"There are lies, damned lies, and launch schedules." - Larry J

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #18 on: 12/02/2022 07:59 pm »
The mission would be high risk with a significant possibility of failure.

Perfect. The ideal goal for a Netflix documentary and a 1-percenter who wants to rehabilitate his image with the world. Plus it would be another high-profile mission for Starship.

As far as the practicalities:

Funding - one of the crowd-source funding sites for at least the preliminaries like orbit determination, initial reconnaissance, legal fees, etc.
*snip*

I'm not aware of ANY successfully crowd-funded major space mission. All of the high profile ones have failed, and failed badly, like Mars One and the B612 Foundation's Sentinel Space Telescope. I am aware of dozens of other smaller, yet still failed efforts.

This concept fails at first look on this point alone.
There was the ISEE-3 project which succeeded in reactivating the spacecraft checking out the dormant instruments, pressurising the propulsion system only not to have the main engine fire due to onboard valve failure preventing ignition whereas the rest of the propulsion system functioned normally during spacecraft spin up for the burn and for attitude control. The spacecraft was placed in safe mode and a few years a follow on project started talks with Maxar and others about developing a spacecraft to capture and berth to replace the current and future non working parts of the propulsion system ahead of its next favourable Earth Moon encounter. The alternative was to try to turn on ISEE-1 and/or 2 however the Arecibo Observatory was the projects sole ground station for reactivation attempts. Normal operations after activation would use DSN or other deep space capable networks.

That didn't involve launching anything into space, which is a huge difference. The attempt to recover ISEE-3 raised about $160,000 which is a VERY far cry from the tens of millions that would need to be raised to pull off the recovery of LM-4.
You said ANY very vaguely so that is why I posted it and I was one of the project kickstarters and volunteers. It showed that it could be done and the upcoming follow on project will be more ambitious and and cost a lot more. Also if the ISEE-3 burn sequence had worked the day to day operations would have been funded by the cancelled much larger second funding campaign.

Offline russianhalo117

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Re: Saving LM-4 Snoopy
« Reply #19 on: 12/02/2022 08:02 pm »
Quote from: russianhalo117
The Apollo docking system on Apollo-10 was pyrotechnically jettisoned as a test objective while docked to LM-4 so note that you will not be docking with the ascent module.

Lack of a docking mechanism has not stopped anyone from docking with another spacecraft before:
It's also the storage place of ripe trash, and human waste including the famous Apollo-10 crew fecal matter 'floater' incident.

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