Author Topic: How About A Space Telescope In Mars-Sun L2 or Mars Orbit?  (Read 11378 times)

Offline davamanra

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Given the accomplishments of Hubble, and EHT using the VLBI technique and the great potential of JWST,  I was thinking about using the best of all these technologies and placing a space telescope (maybe a copy of JWST) in the Sun-Mars L2 LaGrange point or at least in orbit around Mars.  If we were to use Hubble, JWST and observatories on the ground as well as this new space telescope, the potential discoveries would be staggering. 

I was thinking that if we were to use SLS or Starship once it is viable, the launching of such a telescope to Mars would be easily achievable.  Having a telescope in place around Mars would allow for unprecedented resolution as well as the ability to obtain 3-dimensional data.  In searching for exo-planets this ability could yield unimaginable results. 
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Offline Jim

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No, not worth the effort.  VLBI doesn't work well with optical part of the spectrum
« Last Edit: 12/25/2021 10:36 pm by Jim »

Offline davamanra

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Given the accomplishments of Hubble, and EHT using the VLBI technique and the great potential of JWST,  I was thinking about using the best of all these technologies and placing a space telescope (maybe a copy of JWST) in the Sun-Mars L2 LaGrange point or at least in orbit around Mars.  If we were to use Hubble, JWST and observatories on the ground as well as this new space telescope, the potential discoveries would be staggering. 

I was thinking that if we were to use SLS or Starship once it is viable, the launching of such a telescope to Mars would be easily achievable.  Having a telescope in place around Mars would allow for unprecedented resolution as well as the ability to obtain 3-dimensional data.  In searching for exo-planets this ability could yield unimaginable results.

Just a little add-on to the original idea, we could take so TWO EELV's and launch a smaller version of JWST to Sun-Mars L2 AND a smaller version of Hubble to Mars orbit. 

The potential for two infrared telescopes (JWST and this JW jr) a billion miles wide would be able to collect stereoscopic images, 3-d images and ultrahigh resolution images unheard of today. 

The second EELV could deliver a Hubble jr to Mars orbit and it could collect images in the visual range to complement Hubble's images and collect stereoscopic, high resolution and 3-d images to again create images unprecedented today.

Between this infrared "array", this visual "array", and EHT using VLBI collecting radio waves data, we could collect data across a wide a range of the EM spectrum that could complement each other and discover things that we would never have been able to discover using a single telescope.   
« Last Edit: 12/28/2021 06:34 pm by davamanra »
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Offline Jim

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Wrong again.  VLBI doesn’t work for optical. 
And the spacing isn’t far enough for stereo
« Last Edit: 12/28/2021 06:32 pm by Jim »

Offline txgho

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Just a wish list. If SpaceX includes exploration / mining in future plans.
Six Purpose built SS as the space telescope with numerous camera blisters. Bigger than Hubble yet designed for in system observation.
The SS with multicell tanks to preserve propelants. Skin bassed solar panels w/fold outs for longevity.
Place the SS in 4 or 6 of the L4 & L5 lagrange points of Earth, Mars, Jupiter.

That would make 6 system observatories to find and evaluate the unknown NEO and other prospective resources. This may also provide an early warning for interstellar visitors like Oumuamua.

Offline Barley

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Webb is at L2 so that it remains close enough to Earth for communications while being able to keep the angle between  Earth and the Sun small enough to hide them behind the same shield.

Lagrange points of other planets are not close to Earth and would offer no advantage over more or less arbitrary solar orbits (As long as they stay far away from large thermal sources like planets, which is easy to do since the solar system is big and mostly empty.)

Offline Twark_Main

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Purpose built SS as the space telescope

Welcome to the forum! Great first post.

Ditto, except for

     •  telescopes in LEO

     •  fuel tank jettisoned and discarded; Starlink-derived HET propulsion

     •  hinged aerocover doubling as aperture door

A half-dozen 8.8 m "Hubbles" would revolutionize astronomy.
"The search for a universal design which suits all sites, people, and situations is obviously impossible. What is possible is well designed examples of the application of universal principles." ~~ David Holmgren

Offline Proponent

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Lagrange points of other planets are not close to Earth and would offer no advantage over more or less arbitrary solar orbits (As long as they stay far away from large thermal sources like planets, which is easy to do since the solar system is big and mostly empty.)

To find asteroids that might threaten Earth from the sunward direction, a telescope is best located closer to the sun than Earth is.  The telescope need be kept cool to maximize IR sensitivity.  So how about parking a telescope at Venusian L2?

I have not done the calculations, but I would guess Venus's diameter is insufficient to totally eclipse the sun at L2, but an annular eclipse would substantially reduce the heating, since Venus's effective temperature is much lower than the sun's.  It depends whether a very tight halo orbit is feasible.  If not, as is likely, you could wind up with the worst of both worlds: full solar exposure plus a bit of a contribution from Venus.
« Last Edit: 01/27/2022 09:54 pm by Proponent »

Offline Barley

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Lagrange points of other planets are not close to Earth and would offer no advantage over more or less arbitrary solar orbits (As long as they stay far away from large thermal sources like planets, which is easy to do since the solar system is big and mostly empty.)

To find asteroids that might threaten Earth from the sunward direction, a telescope is best located closer to the sun than Earth is.  The telescope need be kept cool to maximize IR sensitivity.  So how about parking a telescope at Venusian L2?

I have not done the calculations, but I would guess Venus's diameter is insufficient to totally eclipse the sun at L2, but an annular eclipse would substantially reduce the heating, since Venus's effective temperature is much lower than the sun's.  It depends whether a very tight halo orbit is feasible.  If not, as is likely, you could wind up with the worst of both worlds: full solar exposure plus a bit of a contribution from Venus.
That is an interesting idea.

If I have the math right at Venus L2 Venus eclipses 88% of the suns area, with a bigger reduction in heating due to limb darkening of the sun.  The comparable figure for Earth is 85%.  (It turns out this depends on the density of the planet, so Mercury is similar to Earth.  For the outer planets L2 should be in full eclipse.)






Offline Jim

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Lagrange points of other planets are not close to Earth and would offer no advantage over more or less arbitrary solar orbits (As long as they stay far away from large thermal sources like planets, which is easy to do since the solar system is big and mostly empty.)

To find asteroids that might threaten Earth from the sunward direction, a telescope is best located closer to the sun than Earth is.  The telescope need be kept cool to maximize IR sensitivity.  So how about parking a telescope at Venusian L2?

I have not done the calculations, but I would guess Venus's diameter is insufficient to totally eclipse the sun at L2, but an annular eclipse would substantially reduce the heating, since Venus's effective temperature is much lower than the sun's.  It depends whether a very tight halo orbit is feasible.  If not, as is likely, you could wind up with the worst of both worlds: full solar exposure plus a bit of a contribution from Venus.
That is an interesting idea.

If I have the math right at Venus L2 Venus eclipses 88% of the suns area, with a bigger reduction in heating due to limb darkening of the sun.  The comparable figure for Earth is 85%.  (It turns out this depends on the density of the planet, so Mercury is similar to Earth.  For the outer planets L2 should be in full eclipse.)

Which means no power from solar arrays

Offline Proponent

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DOH!

Offline redliox

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No, not worth the effort.  VLBI doesn't work well with optical part of the spectrum

Outside of radio, what spectra works best with long baselines?
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Offline JulesVerneATV

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Quote from: redliox link=topic=55462.msg2335491

Outside of radio, what spectra works best with long baselines?

Keck is an interferomter using light but Adaptive Optics but Perhaps Microwave as an interferometer which some also call 'Radio' but  it is more difficult to combine the light from separate telescopes, because electromagnetic energy or light must be kept coherent within a fraction of a wavelength over long optical paths, requiring very high tech computing and precise optics. It's perhaps different on other planets but on Earth lot of stuff is absorbed by atmosphere, electromagnetic spectrum absorption maximum transparency of the air occurs for radio waves between a few cm to around 10 meters wavelength or 33 feet. Radio has poor resoultion but you can space them out like a giant Y on train tracks and by building a spaced apart system you can mimic a giant system.

First instrument to measure small-scale structure in the cosmic microwave background
https://web.archive.org/web/20050309055411/http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/telescopes/cat/press_release.html
« Last Edit: 07/11/2022 08:57 pm by JulesVerneATV »

Offline deadman1204

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JWST is data limited where it is near earth - we already can't get everything we could want. Putting it out at mars would make it 10x worse.

Offline TrevorMonty

Would small data relay satellite near JWST help improve its download speed. Was thinking something using laser to download data to Earth. Being close to JWST it doesn't need much of RF antenna/dish to achieve max download datarate from JWST.

Given they've spent $10B an $100-200M to maximize its use would seem like wise investment.
« Last Edit: 07/21/2022 01:49 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline Steve G

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A good candidate for the Sun-Mars L2 LaGrange telescope is one dedicated for Solar System observations. It would bring it a little closer to the outer system, but, as Jim says, that's a lot of effort for little gain. If you can keep it near the Earth, and accessible for repair and upgrades, all the better.

Offline Greg Hullender

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If you could solve the communications problem, something like the GAIA mission on an escape trajectory from the solar system would be the most impressive. You'd want three telescopes: one in earth orbit and the other two on escape trajectories 60 degrees apart. (So they mark the corners of an equilateral triangle.)

As the baselines grow to dozens of AU, you'd get much better parallax. Also, these would be instantaneous measures, so no complication from the movement of the sun between observations.

However, the data transmission needs are huge, and I don't think even laser systems could handle it from, say, 50 AU away. Or even ten.

Other than parallax, I don't see any advantage in putting a space telescope further away than the Webb is now.

Offline Jim

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Would small data relay satellite near JWST help improve its download speed. Was thinking something using laser to download data to Earth. Being close to JWST it doesn't need much of RF antenna/dish to achieve max download datarate from JWST.

Given they've spent $10B an $100-200M to maximize its use would seem like wise investment.


No, the telescope comm is limited
« Last Edit: 07/21/2022 01:49 am by zubenelgenubi »

Offline su27k

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There're proposals for putting space telescope in the outer solar system, there're legitimate science reasons for it: A small telescope past Saturn could solve some mysteries of the universe better than giant telescopes near Earth

Offline Barley

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There're proposals for putting space telescope in the outer solar system, there're legitimate science reasons for it: A small telescope past Saturn could solve some mysteries of the universe better than giant telescopes near Earth
Don't most planetary probes already contain a small telescope?  Could one be used during the cruise phase or later?  Where there any proposals for Voyager or New Horizons' LORRI after the last encounter?  Or is "past Saturn" an understatement and they really mean "far far past Farfarout"?

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