Author Topic: Lunar experiments  (Read 17950 times)

Offline Danny Dot

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Lunar experiments
« on: 08/04/2007 02:22 am »
Here is a link to some early ideas on Lunar experiments.  Comments?

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=23176

Danny Deger
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Offline simonbp

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #1 on: 08/04/2007 08:00 am »
Well, noone has done lunar surface science in long, long time, so ideas come out of the woodwork that have been brewing for a while. Lots of technologies developed for elsewhere in the solar system can be quickly applied to the moon, both instruments themselves and supporting components (UHF and X-band com systems, triple-junction solar arrays, mobility systems, power converters, etc.). Much of the remote-sensing mineralogy and deep-drilling technology being funding under the Mars program could be applied, while leaving room for new experiments that take advantage of the special properties of the Moon (looking at electromagnetic dust transport, for example)...

Simon ;)

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #2 on: 08/08/2007 10:11 pm »
Experiment - is it safe for people to be accelerated sideways at 3g for six hours or would we have to restrict them to 1g?

This experiment is applicable to transport on the moon.

Offline meiza

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #3 on: 08/08/2007 10:46 pm »
3 G for six hours?? That's like 300 km/s.

Offline HarryM

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #4 on: 08/08/2007 11:27 pm »
Certainly one thing they will be anxious to study is the effect of 40 years exposure of the Apollo materials.

Offline Jim

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #5 on: 08/09/2007 01:08 am »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 8/8/2007  6:11 PM

Experiment - is it safe for people to be accelerated sideways at 3g for six hours or would we have to restrict them to 1g?

This experiment is applicable to transport on the moon.

What? This is meaningless

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #6 on: 08/09/2007 02:08 am »
Quote
meiza - 8/8/2007  11:46 PM

3 G for six hours?? That's like 300 km/s.

That is the centripetal acceleration.  The forward one being power limited is much lower, which is why it takes 6 hours.

Offline Jim

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #7 on: 08/09/2007 03:01 am »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 8/8/2007  10:08 PM

Quote
meiza - 8/8/2007  11:46 PM

3 G for six hours?? That's like 300 km/s.

That is the centripetal acceleration.  The forward one being power limited is much lower, which is why it takes 6 hours.

Still doesn't make any sense

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #8 on: 08/09/2007 03:44 am »
Quote
Jim - 9/8/2007  4:01 AM

Quote
A_M_Swallow - 8/8/2007  10:08 PM

Quote
meiza - 8/8/2007  11:46 PM

3 G for six hours?? That's like 300 km/s.

That is the centripetal acceleration.  The forward one being power limited is much lower, which is why it takes 6 hours.

Still doesn't make any sense

50 mT Lunar Magnetic Levitation vehicle driving around a ring approximately 400 km in circumference (radius 63.66 km).  8 MW of solar power will hopefully get it to 2.38 km/s after about 5.8 hours.  Mass of propellant = 0

Using
Power P = E/t
Energy E = 1/2 m V^2

to give

t = m (v^2 - u^2)/ (2 P)

where
t = time in seconds
m = mass in kg
v = final velocity in m/s
u = initial velocity in m/s
P = Power in Watts (J/s)
E = Energy in Joules (J)

Offline Jim

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #9 on: 08/09/2007 03:48 am »
Quote
A_M_Swallow - 8/8/2007  11:44 PM

Quote
Jim - 9/8/2007  4:01 AM

Quote
A_M_Swallow - 8/8/2007  10:08 PM

Quote
meiza - 8/8/2007  11:46 PM

3 G for six hours?? That's like 300 km/s.

That is the centripetal acceleration.  The forward one being power limited is much lower, which is why it takes 6 hours.

Still doesn't make any sense

50 mT Lunar Magnetic Levitation vehicle driving around a ring approximately 400 km in circumference (radius 63.66 km).  8 MW of solar power will hopefully get it to 2.38 km/s after about 5.8 hours.

The thread is about near term experiments.  Not fanasty

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #10 on: 08/09/2007 03:56 am »
Quote
Jim - 9/8/2007  4:48 AM

The thread is about near term experiments.  Not fanasty

That is why I asked about the side ways acceleration that can be performed in the near term.

It would take about 20 to 30 cargo landings to build the track.  So break even point about 40 lunar take-offs.

Offline Jim

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #11 on: 08/09/2007 04:02 am »
It is not even worth wasting a experiment in the near term for something that won't happen for several decades

Offline HarryM

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #12 on: 08/09/2007 04:20 am »
I would just put the occupants in some sort of internal gimble compartment that would swing sideways with mounting forces.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #13 on: 08/09/2007 05:31 am »
If we are going to be talking about it the Lunar Maglev train posts probably need moving to Advanced Concepts.

Offline A_M_Swallow

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #14 on: 08/10/2007 01:41 am »
I have created a "High Speed Lunar Magnetic Levitation" thread over in the Advanced Concepts section.  The off topic posts can be deleted from this thread.

Offline CuddlyRocket

Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #15 on: 08/10/2007 11:30 am »
I can understand the laser-ranging proposals, but the others seem like it would be simpler and cheaper to perform them using satellites. Though I haven't read them, so there may be reasons for basing them on the moon - which it would've been nice for the article to point out! Anyone else know if there are any such reasons?

Of course, make-work experiments are not necessarily unjustified - as science is not the primary reason for human lunar exploration - but it would make better PR for there to be actual, useful experiments that take advantage of lunar properties.

Offline Danny Dot

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RE: Lunar experiments
« Reply #16 on: 08/10/2007 02:49 pm »
How about telescopes on the moon?  As an engineer, my first guess is the HUGE amount of extra mass to land on the moon makes a lunar based telescope a bad idea.  Is there something about moon basing that is good for a telescope -- vs. keeping it in orbit or sending it to an L point?

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #17 on: 08/10/2007 03:25 pm »

For the longer mission to Mars, the question of 6 - 8 months' exposure to microgravity versus the additional risk and complexity of providing an artificial gravity option seems to be high on the "to be resolved" list. So I want to propose an experiment which can be fit in to one of the later lunar missions.

Place an astronaut aboard ISS for 6 - 8 months to simulate the outbound trip to Mars under minimum energy trajectory conditions. (Yes, I know NASA is considering a higher energy transfer, but Hohmann is still the baseline). Pick this astronaut up in LEO, and take him/her to the moon. See how they react to 1/6 gee compared to the other astronauts who have just come up from Earth. Compare that with the results of how astronauts who have spent 6 - 8 months aboard ISS in microgravity (Polyakov) function upon their return to Earth. This will give us a baseline which will make it easier to interpolate to how astronauts will function in Mars' 1/3 gee after 6 - 8 months in space.

Ron

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Offline meiza

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RE: Lunar experiments
« Reply #18 on: 08/10/2007 05:23 pm »
Quote
Danny Dot - 10/8/2007  3:49 PM

How about telescopes on the moon?  As an engineer, my first guess is the HUGE amount of extra mass to land on the moon makes a lunar based telescope a bad idea.  Is there something about moon basing that is good for a telescope -- vs. keeping it in orbit or sending it to an L point?

Danny Deger

Maybe if you could utilize lunar materials when building it. That could be an Arecibo type radio telescope on the far side of the moon for example, or lots of small telescopes from lunar glass.

Otherwise it seems that freeflying telescopes would be much better. The thermal issues alone are daunting on the moon, not to talk about gravity, dust, pointing problems...

Offline simonbp

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Re: Lunar experiments
« Reply #19 on: 08/14/2007 05:37 am »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 10/8/2007  4:30 AM

I can understand the laser-ranging proposals, but the others seem like it would be simpler and cheaper to perform them using satellites.

Can't do seismometry or field geology from orbit, just broad global surveys. For non-geological instruments, being on a fixed place on the moon allows long-term measurements that need to be above the atmosphere, but work longer than orbit decay will allow.

Also, coupling astronomical facilities with a lunar base allows those facilities to be constructed and actively maintained by the expedition crew. Telescopes (optical, IR, or radio) are fragile things, and could genuinely benefit from a human there to coddle them...

Simon ;)

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