Author Topic: Soyuz MS-22 & Progress MS-21 coolant leaks : Dec 2022 & Feb 2023  (Read 127641 times)

Offline DanClemmensen

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #40 on: 12/15/2022 11:33 am »
I believe that the market price Russia set for ferrying crew members from other countries up and down from the ISS was $86 million per seat.   I suspect that at that rate SpaceX could have a Crew Dragon on the pad pretty quickly and turn a tidy profit.
IVA suits are not compatible between spacecraft types, so the Crew Dragon would need to bring up suits for the three crew. But suits are also customized for the individual crew member, so I really hope they can be built from measurements and do not need to be physically fitted to the crew member.

I guess it would be logistically simpler to send up an empty Soyuz instead, if an empty Soyuz can be docked.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 11:45 am by DanClemmensen »

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #41 on: 12/15/2022 11:35 am »
Well, I'm using also NK's information and Katya's translation ;) But I agree the information at hand is incomplete, and so it's currently impossible to tell with certainty.

I was just about to post that it is true that the native speakers *do* seem to imply it's not the silicone stuff, so you took the words right out of my mouth :)

We're over here trying to figure out whether to second guess them through the cloudy lens of artificial intelligence.

Which, maybe we should. But it sure is hard to tell.

Offline Rondaz

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #42 on: 12/15/2022 11:38 am »
The expert commented on the situation with the depressurization of the ship on the ISS.

Expert Moiseev: a ship with a leaky cooling system carries risks for the ISS.

11:28 12/15/2022 (updated: 11:34 12/15/2022)

MOSCOW, December 15 - RIA Novosti. Being part of the International Space Station of the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft with a depressurization of the cooling circuit is risky: if the spacecraft is not provided with a special thermal regime, other accidents may follow, Ivan Moiseev, an expert in astronautics, told RIA Novosti.

Earlier, from the negotiations of the ISS crew with ground services, it became known that the spacewalk of Russian cosmonauts Sergei Prokopiev and Dmitry Petelin, which was supposed to begin at 5.20 Moscow time on December 15, was postponed due to depressurization of the cooling system of the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft docked to the station.

“If all the coolant is gone, the ship will have to be kept in the shade from the Sun. And it will need to be replaced as soon as possible, the better. Overheating of individual elements can cause other accidents, so keeping such a device in orbit is risky,” Moiseev said.

He added that using such a ship to land with astronauts would also be a risk.

At the same time, according to the expert, the most likely cause of the depressurization of the cooling system was damage to the radiator. It could have happened due to the impact of a micrometeorite or space debris, but other versions, such as manufacturing defects, cannot be ruled out, Moiseev emphasized. Experts should understand this issue, he believes.

As Roskosmos reported in the morning, the extravehicular activities of Prokopyev and Petelin were canceled for technical reasons. Later, the state corporation clarified that preparations for the exit were stopped after the signaling device of one of the diagnostic systems of the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft went off. Now the commission is looking into the reasons for what happened, and based on the results of its work, it will be decided how the ISS crew and ground specialists should proceed.

The astronauts photographed the problematic ship from the station's windows, and also examined it using cameras mounted on the ERA robotic arm. The crew sent the photographs to Earth for examination by specialists.

The spacewalk has been postponed for the second time. It was originally scheduled for November 25, but due to abnormal operation of the pumps in the cooling system of one of the spacesuits, it was postponed to December 15. During the exit, it was planned to transfer the radiator from the Rassvet module to the new Nauka module using the ERA manipulator, which will be needed for experiments.

https://ria.ru/20221215/mks-1838812752.html

Offline kevinof

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #43 on: 12/15/2022 11:41 am »
Far as I know the  "customized and fitted to each crew member" is mostly for fit and comfort and not operations or safety. In other words a crew member could use a suit designed for a slightly larger person and still be ok. Obviously if it's too big and you are swimming around inside the helmet or your gloves are two sizes too big and you can't press a button, it would  be an issue.

If they need to substitute Dragon I don't think the crew wearing suits that didn't fit perfectly would be a show stopper.


I believe that the market price Russia set for ferrying crew members from other countries up and down from the ISS was $86 million per seat.   I suspect that at that rate SpaceX could have a Crew Dragon on the pad pretty quickly and turn a tidy profit.
IVA suits are not compatible between spacecraft types, so the Crew Dragon would need to bring up suits for the three crew. But suits are also customized for the individual crew member, so I really hope they can be built from measurements and do not need to be physically fitted to the crew member.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 12:01 pm by kevinof »

Offline Rondaz

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #44 on: 12/15/2022 11:50 am »
Roscosmos reports damage in Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft’s external casing.

According to the preliminary information, the external casing of the Soyuz MS-22 crew spacecraft’s instrumentation and equipment compartment was damaged.

15 DEC, 02:11

MOSCOW, December 15. /TASS/. The Russian Soyuz MS-22 manned spacecraft docked to the International Space Station (ISS) sustained damage to its external casing, the Roscosmos press office reported on Thursday.

"According to the preliminary information, the external casing of the Soyuz MS-22 crew spacecraft’s instrumentation and equipment compartment was damaged on Thursday, December 15," the press office said in a statement.

As Roscosmos specified, the crew later reported an activation of the sensor of the spaceship’s fault detection system that signaled a drop in pressure in the cooling system.

"The visual inspection confirmed the leaking, following which a decision was made on interrupting scheduled extra-vehicular activities by ISS Russian segment crewmembers Sergey Prokopyev and Dmitry Petelin," the statement says.

Roscosmos female cosmonaut Anna Kikina made photos and video footage of the spaceship’s external surface with the help of a camera on the ERA robotic arm.

"The data has been transmitted to Mission Control and specialists have begun studying the images," Roscosmos said.

Spacewalk cancellation
The Roscosmos press office reported earlier on Thursday that the commission was currently analyzing the incident with a system of the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft, following which a decision would be made on further activities by ground teams and cosmonauts aboard the ISS.

Roscosmos announced earlier on Thursday that the scheduled spacewalk had been cancelled over technical reasons. As a Mission Control specialist specified during communications with the cosmonauts, the extra-vehicular activity was cancelled over a coolant leak in the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft docked to the orbital outpost. Meanwhile, the integrity of the spaceship from inside was not impacted, it said.

During cosmonaut Prokopyev’s previous space expedition, a hole was found in the habitation module of the Soyuz MS-09 spaceship parked at the ISS. At that time, Prokopyev and his teammate Oleg Kononenko had to make a spacewalk to examine the spaceship’s external surface.

https://tass.com/science/1550881

Offline TALsite

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #45 on: 12/15/2022 12:02 pm »
Certainly Prokopiev is having bad luck with his Soyuzes.   :(
Remember than on his first flight (Soyuz MS-09) there was a problem on his orbital module, with a hole discovered in orbit that led to an EVA to inspect it.

https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=46940.0

Edited to add the link of the EVA
« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 12:34 pm by TALsite »

Offline MattMason

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #46 on: 12/15/2022 12:13 pm »
Far as I know the  "customized and fitted to each crew member" is mostly for fit and comfort and not operations or safety. In other words a crew member could use a suit designed for a slightly larger person and still be ok. Obviously if it's too big and you are swimming around inside the helmet or your gloves are two sizes too big and you can't press a button, it would  be an issue.

If they need to substitute Dragon I don't think the crew wearing suits that didn't fit perfectly would be a show stopper.


I believe that the market price Russia set for ferrying crew members from other countries up and down from the ISS was $86 million per seat.   I suspect that at that rate SpaceX could have a Crew Dragon on the pad pretty quickly and turn a tidy profit.
IVA suits are not compatible between spacecraft types, so the Crew Dragon would need to bring up suits for the three crew. But suits are also customized for the individual crew member, so I really hope they can be built from measurements and do not need to be physically fitted to the crew member.

Having available Crew Dragon suits for returning three additional people on the USOS spacecraft doesn't seem probable.

Does the Crew Dragon have 3 additional umbilicals for such a use as a "party bus" 7-crew mode? Else, wearing suits will just make their corpses look cool in the event of a cabin decompress event.

Nor does sending up a contingency Crew Dragon. It could be done, but not sure if any of others are ready for this on the fly. Good news is that it's fully automated and no one is required on the MS-22 crew to know much to get it home. Then, the suit size issue could be a thing. I'd like to think that SpaceX has "generic" suits with some give made for this purpose but I suspect I'm just making a wild speculation.

As others said, logistically, sending MS-22 home early may be the safer play. The high beta angle of the station is going to heat things up more than a cooling system-compromised Soyuz may tolerate. This will still leave Anna Kikina onboard as a Russian representative while Roscosmos rush up the MS-23 vehicle or evaluate MS-22 and wait till March 2023 for the scheduled flight.
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Offline Twark_Main

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #47 on: 12/15/2022 12:16 pm »
technical liquid

Helpful, Roscosmos.  ::)

Deliberately obtuse, or genuine uncertainty?

How is it that after T+10 hours, we still don't know what material is spraying all over the outside of the most expensive object ever made?  ???

I know I know, "patience." NewSpace has spoiled me, clearly!

external casing of the... instrumentation and equipment compartment was damaged

Sounds more like MMOD then (vs defect), but at this point it's difficulty to say.

"Patience, young padawan."
« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 12:29 pm by Twark_Main »
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Offline ZachS09

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #48 on: 12/15/2022 12:16 pm »
Certainly Prokopiev is having bad luck with his Soyuzes.   :(
Remember than on his first flight (Soyuz MS-09) there was a problem on his orbital module, with a hole discovered in orbit that led to an EVA to inspect it.

I remember that moment. IIRC, they had to scrape away the insulation of the Soyuz-MS 09 spacecraft to examine the hole.
Liftoff for St. Jude's! Go Dragon, Go Falcon, Godspeed Inspiration4!

Offline Bananas_on_Mars

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #49 on: 12/15/2022 12:27 pm »
Certainly Prokopiev is having bad luck with his Soyuzes.   :(
Remember than on his first flight (Soyuz MS-09) there was a problem on his orbital module, with a hole discovered in orbit that led to an EVA to inspect it.

I remember that moment. IIRC, they had to scrape away the insulation of the Soyuz-MS 09 spacecraft to examine the hole.

That's too generous, they hacked through the thermal insulation with a knife.

« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 12:30 pm by Bananas_on_Mars »

Offline HVM

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #50 on: 12/15/2022 12:37 pm »
Certainly Prokopiev is having bad luck with his Soyuzes.   :(
Remember than on his first flight (Soyuz MS-09) there was a problem on his orbital module, with a hole discovered in orbit that led to an EVA to inspect it.

I remember that moment. IIRC, they had to scrape away the insulation of the Soyuz-MS 09 spacecraft to examine the hole.
Are Russian saying that they have seen Serena with red Milwaukee case near space port?

Offline FutureSpaceTourist

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #51 on: 12/15/2022 01:03 pm »
https://twitter.com/sciguyspace/status/1603380470581960704

Quote
The coolant leak on the Soyuz MS-22 spacecraft was never controlled, it just stopped leaking last night after all of the coolant was gone. Russian specialists are now assessing impacts on other Soyuz systems to determine whether the craft is flyable.

Offline ZachS09

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #52 on: 12/15/2022 01:26 pm »
Certainly Prokopiev is having bad luck with his Soyuzes.   :(
Remember than on his first flight (Soyuz MS-09) there was a problem on his orbital module, with a hole discovered in orbit that led to an EVA to inspect it.

I remember that moment. IIRC, they had to scrape away the insulation of the Soyuz-MS 09 spacecraft to examine the hole.
Are Russian saying that they have seen Serena with red Milwaukee case near space port?

Don't go there. That story was all made up.

Anyway, since there's the possible chance of Soyuz-MS 23 launching uncrewed to take Prokopyev, Petelin, and Rubio home; MS-22 will undock automatically and deorbit itself, right?
« Last Edit: 12/16/2022 12:24 am by ZachS09 »
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Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #53 on: 12/15/2022 01:35 pm »
Anyway, since there's the most likely chance of Soyuz-MS 23 launching uncrewed to take Prokopyev, Petelin, and Rubio home; MS-22 will undock automatically and deorbit itself, right?

Things are still really unclear. Is MS-22 unsafe for crew? Can it undock and retreat away safely, crewed or not?

As for timing, after the MS-10 abort, they were able to move the next launch ahead by 17 days. That number might improve if they can just say MMOD and not have to do a commonality investigation.

Offline eeergo

Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #54 on: 12/15/2022 01:55 pm »
Worst
Anyway, since there's the most likely chance of Soyuz-MS 23 launching uncrewed to take Prokopyev, Petelin, and Rubio home; MS-22 will undock automatically and deorbit itself, right?

Things are still really unclear. Is MS-22 unsafe for crew? Can it undock and retreat away safely, crewed or not?

As for timing, after the MS-10 abort, they were able to move the next launch ahead by 17 days. That number might improve if they can just say MMOD and not have to do a commonality investigation.

The statement linked earlier seems to rule out MS-22 for crew transport, if the coolant loop is confirmed as inoperable, but also may be slowly becoming a hazard by itself, due to incremental risk of components overheating and failing.

If all the coolant is gone, the ship will have to be kept in the shade from the Sun. And it will need to be replaced as soon as possible, the better. Overheating of individual elements can cause other accidents, so keeping such a device in orbit is risky

Of course, the bolded part is what they're assessing right now, but does seem like a safe bet. It also appears the PAO coolant circuit is NOT redundant, contrary to ealier speculations - not sure whether this is confirmed.

Under this scenario, it may need to be deorbited, or at least undocked and drifted away from ISS before it becomes impossible to do so, as soon as practicable. However, it may not be possible to fast-track the launch of MS-23 by that much, leaving ISS without lifeboat capability for half of its crew for an extended time.
-DaviD-

Offline TALsite

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #55 on: 12/15/2022 01:58 pm »


Anyway, since there's the possible chance of Soyuz-MS 23 launching uncrewed to take Prokopyev, Petelin, and Rubio home; MS-22 will undock automatically and deorbit itself, right?

Just to say that a swap like this was made in 1979, following one engine failure on Soyuz 33 not allowing her docking to Salyut 6.  Soyuz 32 had exceeded his safe period in orbit, and Soyuz 34 was launched unmanned to return cosmonauts Lyakhov and Ryumin.

But the difference is that Soyuz MS-22 is damaged.

http://www.spacefacts.de/mission/english/soyuz-32.htm

Offline mn

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #56 on: 12/15/2022 02:37 pm »
Worst
Anyway, since there's the most likely chance of Soyuz-MS 23 launching uncrewed to take Prokopyev, Petelin, and Rubio home; MS-22 will undock automatically and deorbit itself, right?

Things are still really unclear. Is MS-22 unsafe for crew? Can it undock and retreat away safely, crewed or not?

As for timing, after the MS-10 abort, they were able to move the next launch ahead by 17 days. That number might improve if they can just say MMOD and not have to do a commonality investigation.

The statement linked earlier seems to rule out MS-22 for crew transport, if the coolant loop is confirmed as inoperable, but also may be slowly becoming a hazard by itself, due to incremental risk of components overheating and failing.

If all the coolant is gone, the ship will have to be kept in the shade from the Sun. And it will need to be replaced as soon as possible, the better. Overheating of individual elements can cause other accidents, so keeping such a device in orbit is risky

Of course, the bolded part is what they're assessing right now, but does seem like a safe bet. It also appears the PAO coolant circuit is NOT redundant, contrary to ealier speculations - not sure whether this is confirmed.

Under this scenario, it may need to be deorbited, or at least undocked and drifted away from ISS before it becomes impossible to do so, as soon as practicable. However, it may not be possible to fast-track the launch of MS-23 by that much, leaving ISS without lifeboat capability for half of its crew for an extended time.

The statements you quoted and bolded are speculation from an outside expert, not from Roscosmos.

Wasn't it mentioned in earlier posts that Soyuz has redundant cooling loops (and likely only one loop failed)?

Edit: I see that you did mention that you think the loop is not redundant, but is that based on the speculation from the outsider, or based on any official info?
« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 02:39 pm by mn »

Offline theinternetftw

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #57 on: 12/15/2022 02:39 pm »
Under this scenario, it may need to be deorbited, or at least undocked and drifted away from ISS before it becomes impossible to do so, as soon as practicable. However, it may not be possible to fast-track the launch of MS-23 by that much, leaving ISS without lifeboat capability for half of its crew for an extended time.

Luckily, Eric's sources have started making happier noises:

https://twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1603405490129608707

Offline cohberg

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Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #58 on: 12/15/2022 02:46 pm »
https://mobile.twitter.com/SciGuySpace/status/1603415007949119489

Quote from: @SciGuySpace (Eric Berger)
NASA is going to use the Candadarm2 (a large robotic arm) to survey the Soyuz vehicle and try to pinpoint the damage location. This will help determine the extent of damage as well as possibly its cause, i.e. micrometeoroid debris. An international effort!

Looks like the arm can reach "past" the end of the soyuz so should be able to get great imagery.
Quick mock up with DOUG attached.
« Last Edit: 12/15/2022 03:14 pm by cohberg »

Offline eeergo

Re: Soyuz MS-22 coolant leak : 14/15 December 2022 UTC
« Reply #59 on: 12/15/2022 02:58 pm »
The statements you quoted and bolded are speculation from an outside expert, not from Roscosmos.

Wasn't it mentioned in earlier posts that Soyuz has redundant cooling loops (and likely only one loop failed)?

Edit: I see that you did mention that you think the loop is not redundant, but is that based on the speculation from the outsider, or based on any official info?

Apart from the diagram I circulated before, Nicolas Pillet has corrected his earlier statements about redundancy and clarified there is NO redundancy in such a large system. However, it may be the PAO coolant loop is not indispensible in a contingency flight mode if the other loops are operating. For this, an assessment from Roscosmos is needed - although being such a proven system, there's probably a fair amount of documentation out there just waiting to be unearthed... after all, this is an evident failure mode, no matter how unlikely, just as it was on the STS orbiters for instance.

https://twitter.com/nicolas_pillet/status/1603340170635378688
-DaviD-

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