NASA/ESA - Mars Sample Return mission

[Don2]

Some thoughts on LM's $3B MSR offer:

1/ Unlike many commercial proposals, this comes from a company with a long history of delivering Mars probes.

2/ They propose using their Insight lander platform, which will severely restrict the mass of the MAV.

3/ There was a proposal in the late 1990s for a low cost MSR mission using a very small MAV based on a classified launch vehicle that had allegedly launched small satellites from a Navy fighter. There are some signs of advances in solid rocket motor technology, perhaps associated with the AIM-260 program, which is a Lockheed Martin program. Maybe a small MAV is now possible?

4/ They don't say how many sample tubes they will return, but my guess would be a lot less than the 30 tubes that the existing program is aiming for.

[Apollo22]

Some thoughts on LM's $3B MSR offer:

1/ Unlike many commercial proposals, this comes from a company with a long history of delivering Mars probes.

2/ They propose using their Insight lander platform, which will severely restrict the mass of the MAV.

3/ There was a proposal in the late 1990s for a low cost MSR mission using a very small MAV based on a classified launch vehicle that had allegedly launched small satellites from a Navy fighter. There are some signs of advances in solid rocket motor technology, perhaps associated with the AIM-260 program, which is a Lockheed Martin program. Maybe a small MAV is now possible?

4/ They don't say how many sample tubes they will return, but my guess would be a lot less than the 30 tubes that the existing program is aiming for.

Do you mean, SWERVE ? check this. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/us-hypersonics-prompt-global-strike-capability.7103/page-32#post-782438

[deltaV]

4/ They don't say how many sample tubes they will return, but my guess would be a lot less than the 30 tubes that the existing program is aiming for.

If they'd be returning like 3 tubes then yeah that's a problem. If it's like 8-15 tubes, they can presumably return all 30 by simply building and using several copies of their system. That would presumably increase costs so we need to account for that when comparing their bid to other bids that return all 30 at once, but would presumably only add a few billion dollars to the cost.

Also for competition purposes it would be better to have two providers. So two providers returning 15 samples each may be a good way to get all 30 tubes home.

[VSECOTSPE]

The part of the LockMart PR sheet on their $3B MSR mission that raises my eyebrow is this:

Most notably, our solution includes a smaller lander utilizing our previously flight proven InSight spacecraft, a smaller Mars ascent vehicle and smaller Earth entry system, all tailored to the needs of returning Mars samples.

JPL couldn’t get the mass budget on their version of the MSR mission to close, and LockMart was involved in that effort.  Now LockMart can get the mass budget to close using much smaller systems, presumably with much tighter mass allocations?  Color me skeptical.  Something is not apples-to-apples here (sample size, reliance on Perseverance for sample transport, risk posture, etc.), or LockMart really hasn’t put some initial mission planning and mass budgeting to the test and is jumping to conclusions.

As always, more details needed.  FWIW...

[woods170]

The part of the LockMart PR sheet on their $3B MSR mission that raises my eyebrow is this:

Most notably, our solution includes a smaller lander utilizing our previously flight proven InSight spacecraft, a smaller Mars ascent vehicle and smaller Earth entry system, all tailored to the needs of returning Mars samples.

JPL couldn’t get the mass budget on their version of the MSR mission to close, and LockMart was involved in that effort.  Now LockMart can get the mass budget to close using much smaller systems, presumably with much tighter mass allocations?  Color me skeptical.  Something is not apples-to-apples here (sample size, reliance on Perseverance for sample transport, risk posture, etc.), or LockMart really hasn’t put some initial mission planning and mass budgeting to the test and is jumping to conclusions.

As always, more details needed.  FWIW...

What LockMart hasn't revealed so far is that their proposed MSR solution won't be able to bring back 30 sample tubes in one go. The size of their MAV and Earth return vehicle will allow for something like five sample tubes only.

[Don2]

Do you mean, SWERVE ? check this. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/us-hypersonics-prompt-global-strike-capability.7103/page-32#post-782438

SWERVE looks like a reentry vehicle, which is something different. In the late 90s they declassified a Navy effort which developed a small satellite launcher which was air launched from a Navy fighter. They claimed one successful launch with the system. I can't find any references to it now.

Dan Goldin's NASA claimed that they could develop an MAV as small as 100kg which could return a useful Martian sample. According to Wikipedia, by the early 2000s they were aiming for a 140kg MAV which launched a 3.6kg orbiting sample with 500g of Martian samples inside. Later work showed that design was unrealistic.

I thought the maximum payload for the Insight/Phoenix type lander was 50kg, so I don't know how they expect to fit an MAV plus sample handling equipment and launch hardware on that system. I think they would be doing well to return a single sample tube with that proposal.

[Don2]

If the current budget proposal goes through there will be a lot of things that NASA won't be able to afford to do anymore, and MSR is at the top of that list. Even if the cost could be reduced, there won't be any available funding for it. MSR will have to be left to the Chinese.

Since there is no funding for missions to land on Mars, NASA's current Mars landing capabilities will atrophy and be lost as people are laid off and retire.

[JulesVerneATV]

new funding for Upcoming mission includes $700 million for a new Mars Telecommunications Orbiter

2008 report

Preliminary Planning for an International Mars Sample Return Mission
https://web.archive.org/web/20090409161001/http://mepag.jpl.nasa.gov/reports/iMARS_FinalReport.pdf

Planetary Science Decadal Survey MSR Lander Mission
https://web.archive.org/web/20130511134144/http://www.nap.edu/reports/13117/App%20G%2009_Mars-Sample-Return-Lander.pdf

[catdlr]

https://twitter.com/NGCNews/status/1942983525264675015

Space exploration on planets like Mars is on the horizon. We recently conducted a full-scale static test of an advanced second-stage motor for ascent propulsion from another planet. The test confirms that we can support future missions to other planets with our solid rocket motor.

Learn more: http://news.northropgrumman.com/propulsion/Northrop-Grumman-Completes-Key-Test-for-Exoplanetary-Ascent-Propulsion

[matthewkantar]

https://twitter.com/NGCNews/status/1942983525264675015

Space exploration on planets like Mars is on the horizon. We recently conducted a full-scale static test of an advanced second-stage motor for ascent propulsion from another planet. The test confirms that we can support future missions to other planets with our solid rocket motor.

Learn more: http://news.northropgrumman.com/propulsion/Northrop-Grumman-Completes-Key-Test-for-Exoplanetary-Ascent-Propulsion

I wonder if a mission-like cold soak/thermal cycling was part of this test?

[ccdengr]

I wonder if a mission-like cold soak/thermal cycling was part of this test?

Yes, that was all done a couple of years ago before the mission was cancelled the last time...

https://www.nasa.gov/centers-and-facilities/marshall/nasa-mars-ascent-vehicle-continues-progress-toward-mars-sample-return/