Author Topic: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager  (Read 17609 times)

Offline kraisee

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For my second article on the site, I will be interviewing Danny Davis, the NASA MSFC Project Manager in charge of the Ares-I Upper Stage development.   The interview is scheduled for 1pm tomorrow, Saturday 25th August.

Obviously, I will be asking about the 8000lb overweight concerns on the US, but I would also like to include some questions from people here, so what questions do you have for him?

Ross.

Over to y' all...
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Offline Avron

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Is there any chance that you will share with him your option?  If you do .. ask him for his inputs...

As PM, ask how he will reduce the risks on not providing a solution that meets the requirements?  

And when if, it comes to pass, that they say, no it cannot be done, without changes to his requirments.  What is the point that that needs to change...?

Offline Jamie Young

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Has Stumpy been considered seriously, or was it just KSC proposing an idea that was preferencial to them?

Offline gladiator1332

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I second Jamie Young's question. How serious is NASA taking Stumpy? And if there was a major change in the CLV, how would MSFC adapt?

Offline josh_simonson

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What  considerations are being taken into account in the design of the second stage to give the CEV more time to escape in the event of a launch failure?

Offline MATTBLAK

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1): Anyone looked into giving the first stage extra Strap-ons, such as the Atlas V's Aerojet solids?

2): How seriously is a common bulkhead for the LOX/LH2 tanks been looked at?

3): How challenging would it be to squeeze 2x J-2X into the upper stage?
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Offline Lunar Dreamer

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Q) We've heard very little about Mars, especially since the removal of Methane from the ESAS baseline. Is Methane completely out of the reckoning? Is there anything that is being looked at in terms of Mars in the current vehicle configuration for the moon sortie missions?

Offline edkyle99

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Offline Heg

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Hi everyone!

Would it be possible to proceed with 4-segment SRB first stage and extra strap-ons (like those MATTBLAK suggests)?
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Offline astrobrian

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If he is allowed to talk about it, is the US being thrown out due to overall demise of the Stick? If so, what are they looking at for the next incarnation of US design?  Will it remain roughly the same in regards to it current set of specs no matter what FSB they use?

Offline kraisee

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #10 on: 08/26/2006 04:43 AM »
Thanks for those Q's guys.

I'll try to get as many in as I can tomorrow.   Not sure what Danny's schedule is like, but he's graciously given us his entire lunch break on Saturday.

I'll check back around 11am, and collect any more Q's you guys can suggest.

I managed to speak with him briefly this evening, and he did tell me that the Stick is actually fine, and is a definite GO.

He talked about some of the details, but we were not on the record so I won't post that information yet.   But rest assured, I intend to ask him to detail what's going on there on the record tomorrow.

Ross.
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Offline Andy USA

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #11 on: 08/26/2006 02:52 PM »
Quote
kraisee - 25/8/2006  11:30 PM


I managed to speak with him briefly this evening, and he did tell me that the Stick is actually fine, and is a definite GO.

He talked about some of the details, but we were not on the record so I won't post that information yet.   But rest assured, I intend to ask him to detail what's going on there on the record tomorrow.

Ross.

Then ask him why the US is 7,000lbs over mass and ask him exactly where the reserve mass is for this issue. Also how do they expect the stick to even get off the pad with such as slow reacting TVC? Are they hoping wind shere doesn't exsist in 2010? Also, what purpose at all the $500m test flight will provide, seen as it's just a 4 seg booster with a dummy stage and nearly all the new areas of the US stage won't be tested on this.

Offline kraisee

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #12 on: 08/26/2006 05:26 PM »
Okay, Danny has had to reschedule the interview to Monday, so you've all got more time to come up with Q's.

Ross.
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Offline MKremer

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #13 on: 08/26/2006 05:48 PM »
Have they committed to any one type of thrust structure?

Can he provide details about any of the US instrumentation and guidance they want to use (not only what kind of hardware, but how sophisticated they want the software to be in terms of accuracy and updates per second)?

Since the idea is to automate the monitoring and control during the launch process and boost phases as much as possible (less people, more computers), how is that part of the design planning progressing?

Offline braddock

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #14 on: 08/29/2006 02:27 AM »
I've really been looking forward to this interview.  Did it happen today?  Will there be any sneak peek on L2?

Offline kraisee

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #15 on: 08/29/2006 09:20 AM »
I finally managed to hook-up with Danny after 10pm this evening.   He was shattered from a long day, and because he returns to MSFC first thing in the morning, I suggested it would be better to scrub the face-to-face interview and switch to an e-mail/telephone interview this week, where we can spend some time discussing more finite details.

He did however stick around for a drink, and we chatted for about an hour, although it was not on-the-record.

He explained ALL of the issues we've heard about recently, in a great deal of detail.   I now *finally* understand what is really going on with the mass issue, and the TVC concerns and a bunch of other stuff too.

Danny's a very good personal friend of mine, so I'm even less inclined to discuss what was said off-the-record in that chat, but suffice to say this for now: "The Stick" is well and truly still alive.   And I dare say it is actually prospering.

The e-Interview should start tomorrow, and take most of the week.   I will go back over all of this on-the-record with him again, and all will be revealed.   I will post a teaser in L2 when I can, prior to the full article being posted, so watch this space...

Ross.
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September will be a large amount of ESAS related news, with the CEV decision coming on Aug 31 - although we know who that is now. ARES I-1 extra info and CLV DAC updates, plus what DD has to say.

Offline Andy L

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #17 on: 09/05/2006 01:04 AM »
Mr Davis. Simple question. Why go with the stick over the EELV options? How much of a consideration was the wish to keep SDLV on the jobs front?

Offline Martin FL

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #18 on: 09/06/2006 09:15 PM »
Are the latest cost estimates on track.

Offline josh_simonson

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #19 on: 09/06/2006 11:24 PM »
The CLV second stage is very similar to the Delta IV CBC.  5m diameter, LOX/LH2, CLV is ~30% shorter is all.  Are you considering using existing Delta IV designs and/or tooling at the Decatur, AL, plant to manufacture this stage?

Offline Bruhn

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #20 on: 09/07/2006 01:00 AM »
Quote
josh_simonson - 6/9/2006  6:11 PM

The CLV second stage is very similar to the Delta IV CBC.  5m diameter, LOX/LH2, CLV is ~30% shorter is all.  Are you considering using existing Delta IV designs and/or tooling at the Decatur, AL, plant to manufacture this stage?

The CLV Upper Stage (US) [we don't call it a second stage] is 5.5m in diameter (as of today).  The DAC-1B design is similar to the DIV CBC but the DAC-1C design is more similar to the S-IVB.  The Constellation project has ground ruled MAF as the manufacturing site.  It is my opinion however that it would be a mistake to rule out Decatur, but I doubt Decatur will be considered.  Unless there are some serious through put problems with MAF.

Offline Jim

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #21 on: 09/07/2006 01:49 AM »
Quote
josh_simonson - 6/9/2006  7:11 PM

The CLV second stage is very similar to the Delta IV CBC.  5m diameter, LOX/LH2, CLV is ~30% shorter is all.  Are you considering using existing Delta IV designs and/or tooling at the Decatur, AL, plant to manufacture this stage?

Not to answer for Danny, but the upperstage is 5.5m in dia (D-IV is 5m), MAF is baselined and LiAlum is baselined (D-IV isn't).  D-IV CBC is a lower stage not an upperstage (different design requirements)

Offline josh_simonson

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #22 on: 09/07/2006 07:02 PM »
Boeing is working hard to get support contracts on the CLV and they're due a bone since LockMart got the CEV contract.   If they have major hand in the second stage, it seems natural to use their relevant resources and technologies from the Delta IV - such as engine mounts, interstage and load bearing structures that the ET lacks.

"The first-stage tanks are based on the construction methods of the upper stage tanks originally developed for the Delta III, but enlarged to five meters diameter."  - http://www.answers.com/topic/delta-iv-rocket

Offline R&R

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #23 on: 09/08/2006 01:45 AM »
The Delta IV CBC tanks are made from the same material, milled in the same machines, rolled in the same presses and welded in the same Friction Stir Welder as the US tanks.  The only difference I believe is the tank domes for the first stage come from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries while the US Domes are made in house.  Would LiAlum need something more special?

My big question is what would be the problem with a 5 meter CLV US?  Sure it would be longer than planned but the weight should be the same and you only need a small adapter to flare out to the CEV?  Either way from I've seen of the welder at Decatur it most likely could handle a 5.5 meter weld op.  There's plenty of room to put in another stand at that diameter if it couldn't.  I read somewhere (maybe one of these threads) that NASA intends to use Friction Stir Welding for the US tanks but the tooling is still being studied/designed.  Why build what already exists.

That factory was designed for 40 CBC's per year, last year they built 8 I think so even with the pending Atlas manufacturing they are going to be way under utilized.  Now going to Decatur still shuts out Being to a small degree since the contract would be to ULA with Boeing only getting a share of the profit and not much of the credit and LM already has the prestige of the CEV they'd probably be happy with just the profit.

Seems to me that mandating the CLV US be built a Michoud means LM builds it since they build the Shuttle ET right?

Offline kraisee

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #24 on: 09/08/2006 12:24 PM »
Part two is back from Danny.   Chris and I are currently preparing it to post on L2 prior to posting on the main site.

This is the biggie with the CLV 'issues' discussed.

One problem though, Danny's schedule is getting a bit busy at the moment, so he's having to pass on parts 3 and 4 - at least for a while.

He's already indicated that when he returns to the Cape area next (possibly around STS-116), he'll sit down with me and finish this lot off.

Part 3 was going to be about the test program, and part 4 was planned to be going back over previous answers for more info, and including more of your questions.   So for now, those are on indefinite hold.

Thought you'd all like to know.

Ross.
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Offline NASA_Twix_JSC

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #25 on: 09/08/2006 06:36 PM »
Excellent!

Offline kraisee

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #26 on: 09/10/2006 06:11 PM »
NEWS: Even with his incredibly busy schedule, Danny Davis HAS managed to get most of the part 3 & 4 questions done for the site after all!   I just received the answers in one bulk reply!

I'm going to get them written up for the site shortly.

That guy is such a star for spending so much of his valuable spare time communicating with us!   I'm SO going to buy him a beer when we're next in town together! :)

Ross.
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Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #27 on: 09/10/2006 06:24 PM »
Does he visit this site?

Offline MartianBase

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #28 on: 09/10/2006 07:54 PM »
Quote
Lunar Dreamer - 25/8/2006  9:20 PM

Q) We've heard very little about Mars, especially since the removal of Methane from the ESAS baseline. Is Methane completely out of the reckoning? Is there anything that is being looked at in terms of Mars in the current vehicle configuration for the moon sortie missions?

Great question, I was going to ask that !

Offline dbhyslop

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #29 on: 09/10/2006 08:21 PM »
Ross,

Have you discussed your direct ideas with him at all?

Offline kraisee

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #30 on: 09/10/2006 09:02 PM »
Quote
dbhyslop - 10/9/2006  4:08 PM

Ross,

Have you discussed your direct ideas with him at all?

He said "No, we've got a solution we think is better" and justified why that is his thinking.   He asked me not to publish any of that though.

I did get the view of the EELV options which someone on here asked for, and info about why they aren't going to use a 2 engine option on the CLV U/S, and a number of other interesting points.   Watch this space.   Chris is editing part 2 now, and when I get it back, I'll post it here.   Then we'll tackle the final Part - 3.

Ross.
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Offline dbhyslop

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #31 on: 09/11/2006 01:15 AM »
Sounds like you've got a great personal and professional relationship.  I can't wait for part 2!

Online Chris Bergin

Part 2 is stunning. Draft is on L2, but I'll certainly aim to get this turned around in a few days. More about timing to ensure it's not lost in the midst of 115 news.

Offline CuddlyRocket

Quote
kraisee - 10/9/2006  9:49 PM

He said "No, we've got a solution we think is better" and justified why that is his thinking.   He asked me not to publish any of that though.
Oooh, that is very interesting, but very annoying! :)

You are a bad, bad, bad, bad, man for teasing us like that! If we ever meet you can buy me a beer! ;)  (Assuming there's an open bar, of course! No doubt there'd be time for one or two....)

You do realise that people are now going to post their speculations as to what is meant and harass you until now and when the answer is disclosed as to whether they're getting warmer or colder etc!

Offline kraisee

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #34 on: 09/11/2006 04:36 PM »
Quote
CuddlyRocket - 11/9/2006  9:19 AM

Quote
kraisee - 10/9/2006  9:49 PM

He said "No, we've got a solution we think is better" and justified why that is his thinking.   He asked me not to publish any of that though.
Oooh, that is very interesting, but very annoying! :)

You are a bad, bad, bad, bad, man for teasing us like that! If we ever meet you can buy me a beer! ;)  (Assuming there's an open bar, of course! No doubt there'd be time for one or two....)

You do realise that people are now going to post their speculations as to what is meant and harass you until now and when the answer is disclosed as to whether they're getting warmer or colder etc!

Yes, I wish I could go into more details :)   But what he did say has targetted me towards some changes to the Direct concept, to enhance it's strengths, and to reduce its weaknesses.

Watch the process of changes, and you'll get a feel for what I learned ;)

And "Who Me? Bad? Evil? Not sweet innocent 'ikle me!!!" Muwahahahahahaha! http://65.33.118.71/Public/Smilies/19.gif">

Ross.
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Offline Jim

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #35 on: 09/11/2006 06:01 PM »
Quote
R&R - 7/9/2006  9:32 PM
Seems to me that mandating the CLV US be built a Michoud means LM builds it since they build the Shuttle ET right?

No it doesn't.  LM is just a resident at MAF

Offline Ducati94

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #36 on: 09/11/2006 11:39 PM »
MAF is part of MSFC and is a GOCO facility.


Offline josh_simonson

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #38 on: 09/14/2006 01:33 AM »
Great article!

What's that little question mark in a diamond doohickey on this section?

>? With the 5 segment, we will use the same propellant (PBAN), same cases and joints/seals, same igniter, same nozzle hardware in a majority of components, a Shuttle developed, environmentally-friendly insulator, same aft-skirt and same TVC system as has been proven on 230 RSRM flights on Shuttle. In addition, 5 segment changes are anchored in a proof-of-concept 5 segment firing in October, 2003.

I thought that was the most interesting part.

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Formating. Sorted now :)

Offline Avron

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #40 on: 09/15/2006 04:03 AM »
Quote
kraisee - 11/9/2006  12:23 PM
Watch the process of changes, and you'll get a feel for what I learned ;)

Ross.



OK Ross.. Need some pointers here as we see changes... something like a Marker on changes to watch, when they are posted..

just a reply to a post here and there to indicate more note should be taken..


  ;-)

Offline Avron

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #41 on: 09/15/2006 04:03 AM »
Quote
kraisee - 11/9/2006  12:23 PM
Watch the process of changes, and you'll get a feel for what I learned ;)

Ross.



OK Ross.. Need some pointers here as we see changes... something like a Marker on changes to watch, when they are posted..

just a reply to a post here and there to indicate more note should be taken..


[more hints please]   ;-)

Offline kraisee

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #42 on: 09/15/2006 06:08 PM »
Quote
Avron - 14/9/2006  11:50 PM
OK Ross.. Need some pointers here as we see changes... something like a Marker on changes to watch, when they are posted..

just a reply to a post here and there to indicate more note should be taken..


[more hints please]   ;-)

He he he! :)

Well, I did do some major changes over on the Direct thread this week.

Without giving anything away, the new engines are much cheaper than before, and make the Direct noticably safer too.   You might not think that is a random decision on my part, but I couldn't possibly comment.

subble enuff 4 ya? ;)

R.
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Offline Avron

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #43 on: 09/16/2006 04:49 AM »
Quote
kraisee - 15/9/2006  1:55 PM
subble enuff 4 ya? ;)

R.

enuff ..ta (ref the brits)  [ :) ]

Offline R&R

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #44 on: 09/16/2006 04:59 AM »
Quote
Jim - 12/9/2006  11:48 AM

Quote
R&R - 7/9/2006  9:32 PM
Seems to me that mandating the CLV US be built a Michoud means LM builds it since they build the Shuttle ET right?

No it doesn't.  LM is just a resident at MAF

Okay I shuld have been more specific.  I thought the whole point of mandating MAF is driven by the intent to basically build the CLV US Tanks and CaLV Core Tanks the same way as the Shuttle ET.  This leverages the tooling, engineering and technician expertise and testing facilities to keep the cost down.  If that's even partially correct then NASA won't be able to let another company go in and share the facility and tooling etc. since the US manufacturing will start while Shuttle is still flying.  The only way I see to do that is award the contract to LM as sole source.

Offline kraisee

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #45 on: 09/16/2006 06:02 PM »
R&R,
It is possible that Boeing could win it too.   They could fairly easily pick up the current staff working there now and be up and running in no time.

I do feel that LM has a clear 'upper hand' though - because it is already onsite with a fully established team of administrators, managers, engineers and tchnicians.   But last time I thought it was pretty-much a lock-in...

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
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Offline SimonShuttle

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #46 on: 09/16/2006 06:30 PM »
When's part 3 Ross? There's lots of quotes in part 2 especially, but we want more :)

Offline Jim

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #47 on: 09/16/2006 09:26 PM »
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kraisee - 16/9/2006  1:49 PM

I do feel that LM has a clear 'upper hand' though - because it is already onsite with a fully established team of administrators, managers, engineers and tchnicians.   But last time I thought it was pretty-much a lock-in...

that is not an "upper hand"  KSC base contractor has changed contractors.  Rockwell to LSOC was a change.  It is not a big deal

Only the upper mangement changes, all the rest of the people, which you have listed, would just change badges.

Offline Jim

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #48 on: 09/16/2006 09:27 PM »
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R&R - 16/9/2006  12:46 AM

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Jim - 12/9/2006  11:48 AM

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R&R - 7/9/2006  9:32 PM
Seems to me that mandating the CLV US be built a Michoud means LM builds it since they build the Shuttle ET right?

No it doesn't.  LM is just a resident at MAF

Okay I shuld have been more specific.  I thought the whole point of mandating MAF is driven by the intent to basically build the CLV US Tanks and CaLV Core Tanks the same way as the Shuttle ET.  This leverages the tooling, engineering and technician expertise and testing facilities to keep the cost down.  If that's even partially correct then NASA won't be able to let another company go in and share the facility and tooling etc. since the US manufacturing will start while Shuttle is still flying.  The only way I see to do that is award the contract to LM as sole source.

 Not a good enough justification.  Any compotent contractor can come in do the same job

Offline R&R

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #49 on: 09/17/2006 06:29 AM »
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kraisee - 17/9/2006  11:49 AM

R&R,
It is possible that Boeing could win it too.   They could fairly easily pick up the current staff working there now and be up and running in no time.

I do feel that LM has a clear 'upper hand' though - because it is already onsite with a fully established team of administrators, managers, engineers and tchnicians.   But last time I thought it was pretty-much a lock-in...

Ross.

I agree Boeing or ULA depending on timing could win the contract but having to bid on the US and not be able to put forward a less expensive proposal because they have to cost for MAF instead of Decatur puts them at a disadvantage.  LM would have better insight of the MAF costs.

As others have pointed out and I knew this as well is any contractor cold come in and take over LM's operations and absorb the staff but if LM is not facing a contract extension review how does NASA take the ET work away so they can give that and the US to somebody else?

It sure seems like NASA mandating MAF will end up being just another poor costly decision.  Only time will tell how this plays out. :)

Offline kraisee

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #50 on: 09/17/2006 07:57 AM »
Depending on schedule, there is a distinct chance that the Ares-I U/S production line may begin operating at the same time as ET production, as two separate teams.   MAF is certainly large enough to accomodate both production lines at the same time if it were to happen.   It's also likely that MAF will be mandated as the site for the Ares-V core too, and that team will also operate along-side the Ares-I U/S.

I think it's quite possible that any contractor could operate the new production line, while the ET line is still winding down.   And as the new line gets further and further advanced, it could be in a position to take some, if not all, of the ET staff on as that production line gradually closes.

The only advantage LM has is it already management and admin staff in place right now, ready to manage such a project.   But that's certainly not a capability some other contractor couldn't create there too.   It's a slight advantage, but an advantage none-the-less.

And MAF was specifically pushed by Congress.   They are trying to pump money into the area to rebuild the area.   To do that, they utilise any and every government agency they can, and instruct those agencies to direct cash, usually in the form of contracts, to certain zones.

In this case, NASA can make the new stage(s) in a number of different locations, all for about the same amount.   However, if they make it at MAF the governmanet agency does something which the government wishes, and that's a VERY good thing for NASA when it comes to appropriations time.

Ross.
"The meek shall inherit the Earth -- the rest of us will go to the stars"
-Robert A. Heinlein

Offline Jim

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #51 on: 09/17/2006 12:32 PM »
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R&R - 17/9/2006  2:16 AM

I agree Boeing or ULA depending on timing could win the contract but having to bid on the US and not be able to put forward a less expensive proposal because they have to cost for MAF instead of Decatur puts them at a disadvantage.  LM would have better insight of the MAF costs.

As others have pointed out and I knew this as well is any contractor cold come in and take over LM's operations and absorb the staff but if LM is not facing a contract extension review how does NASA take the ET work away so they can give that and the US to somebody else?

It sure seems like NASA mandating MAF will end up being just another poor costly decision.  Only time will tell how this plays out. :)

ULA will not be a contractor on any other LV's.  It only exists for EELV's.

The upperstage will not be built at Decatur, MAF has been mandated.

Another contractors use of MAF does not preclude LM completing the remaining ET's.  There is plenty of room at MAF, just like AF plant 42 at Palmdale, where the B-2, Shuttle, X-33, SR-71, X-37, B-1 were built by different contractors over the years ( the 1st 3 at the same time)

Offline R&R

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RE: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #52 on: 09/18/2006 05:01 AM »
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Jim - 18/9/2006  6:19 AM

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R&R - 17/9/2006  2:16 AM

I agree Boeing or ULA depending on timing could win the contract but having to bid on the US and not be able to put forward a less expensive proposal because they have to cost for MAF instead of Decatur puts them at a disadvantage.  LM would have better insight of the MAF costs.

As others have pointed out and I knew this as well is any contractor cold come in and take over LM's operations and absorb the staff but if LM is not facing a contract extension review how does NASA take the ET work away so they can give that and the US to somebody else?

It sure seems like NASA mandating MAF will end up being just another poor costly decision.  Only time will tell how this plays out. :)

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ULA will not be a contractor on any other LV's.  It only exists for EELV's.

Wrong!  ULA is a buisness like any other and some of the future ULA Managment mentioned in presentations to their employees building the CLV US at Decatur as the type of other work they could go after.  The only mandate ULA has for its existence is that LM & Boieng must sell the launches.  They are free to make money any other way they want.  Now I will concede that since MAF is mandatory they won't try for the US as a prime but they would be open to building piece parts for whoever is.

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The upperstage will not be built at Decatur, MAF has been mandated.

I got that the last dozen times you've said it to anyone who suggests it.  My point is that by Decatur being shut out of the competition a great opportunity for lower cost is thrown out the window.  If NASA wants the most for it's dollar it should at least entertain other locations for building the US.

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Another contractors use of MAF does not preclude LM completing the remaining ET's.  There is plenty of room at MAF, just like AF plant 42 at Palmdale, where the B-2, Shuttle, X-33, SR-71, X-37, B-1 were built by different contractors over the years ( the 1st 3 at the same time)

Quit with the whole "there's plenty of room for all" mantra.  I think we all got that part.  Again my point is that the tooling and much more for the ET is in a building(s) used by LM so someone else moving in to another place where there's room means you don't reuse that tooling. and so on.  I'll grant that you have more insight of MAF operations and to what NASA is planning so if I've got it wrong about reusing the ET stuff please let me know.  If I'm not tell me how it can work. :)

Offline Jim

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #53 on: 09/18/2006 11:55 AM »
ET does not equate to upperstage.  There will be two different contractors.

"I agree Boeing or ULA depending on timing could win the contract but having to bid on the US and not be able to put forward a less expensive proposal because they have to cost for MAF instead of Decatur puts them at a disadvantage. LM would have better insight of the MAF costs."                  There is nothing special about costing MAF that would give LM any advantage.    operating the facility vs operating it in are different.  The upperstage contractor is not the facility operator

Wrong, ULA will not do anything other than EELV's.  Period.  The engineering part of ULA will just be enough to operate the EELV's.  The parent companies will want to keep the additional work themselves

Decatur is tooled for 5m.  It would need to be retooled just like MAF for 5.5m.  No advantage.  MAF will be used for the CaLV core  and EDS so there are savings in fully utilitizing the facility.  It could be possible to have 3 different contractors in MAF: Upperstage, CaLV and EDS.

there is a production over capacity for the ET.  The tooling can be "shared'.  Most can be transferred to the "new' contractor since by the time the upper stage needs it, the ET won't.


Offline Ducati94

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Re: Interview with Danny Davis, CLV Upper Stage Project Manager
« Reply #54 on: 09/18/2006 11:51 PM »
MAF will not be a factor in awarding the contract for CLV or CaLV. MAF is a Government Owned Contractor Operated (GOCO) facility. There is a sand alone facilities management contract which LM currently has. MAF presently has only one project using MAF when CLV and CaLV is both using MAF the cost of the facilities operation and maintenance will be paid for by NASA. NASA will re-compete the facilities contract before 2010.


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